Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge? Click Here
No Bookmarks Exist.
Give me just a second. 00:00:01
August 28, 2024, The time is 6:34 PM and we are going to get our Vineyard City Council meeting rolling. We'll start with our 00:00:04
proclamation. I'll go ahead and read this Proclamation 2024. Dash 06 is Constitution Proclamation, whereas September 17th two, 00:00:14
2024 marks the 237th. 00:00:23
Annual or anniversary of the drafting of the Constitution of the United States of America by the Constitutional Convention. And 00:00:33
WHEREAS every anniversary of the Constitution provides a historic opportunity for all Americans to learn about and to reflect upon 00:00:40
the rights and privileges of citizenship and its responsibilities. And WHEREAS, it is fitting and proper to accord official 00:00:48
recognition to this magnificent document and its memorable anniversary into the patriotic celebr. 00:00:55
Which will commemorate the occasion now. Therefore, I, Julie, former Mayor of the City of Vineyard, Utah, hereby proclaimed the 00:01:03
month of September, 2024 as Constitution Month and urge all citizens to study the Constitution and reflect on the privilege of 00:01:11
being an American with all the rights and responsibilities which that privilege involves. 00:01:18
Go ahead and sign this. 00:01:26
And then we're going to go ahead and move into our. 00:01:35
Staff report and today we have our government consultants here with us today and I just wanted to invite them up to give us a 00:01:40
report as we start to move into the legislative session. 00:01:45
Come on up. 00:01:50
Thank you, Mayor Council members. Jeff Hartley, happy to be with you today. 00:01:57
Give you an update on kind of where things are at the state level. There's a lot of activity. This is when the busy season begins 00:02:02
going into the fall. 00:02:06
The the Legislature met last week in its interim session. There was a flurry of activity around a ballot measure. You may have 00:02:11
heard about that. There's a there's a constitutional amendment that will on the ballot this fall that affects how ballot 00:02:17
initiatives will be structured in the state of Utah. It should have passed. 00:02:23
That was done in reaction to some state Supreme Court, state Supreme Court ruling and, and how the state can address laws that are 00:02:30
passed by citizen initiatives. So that's coming forward and it's that that in addition to that on the ballot, there's other 00:02:37
constitutional amendments and other things will be considered including for our deputy, including making sheriff's constitutional 00:02:43
state office. So that that which will pass will be good. 00:02:50
But this is also the time when when the. 00:02:59
Legislative committees start preparing legislative committee bills, which are formal actions by a committee. If they pass a bill 00:03:02
in in August, September, October, and it passes with a supermajority of the committee, then it becomes what's called the committee 00:03:09
bill. Those bills skip the can't skip the committee process in the legislative session. So there's a way to expedite bill so that 00:03:15
activity begins now and and, and. 00:03:22
There will be several aggressive legislators who will have try to get their bills through committees in advance because. 00:03:29
It's become become such a. 00:03:35
There creates such a backlog during the session, it's hard to get things done. So as we see more bills every year in the 00:03:40
legislature, the committee bills are becoming more popular. We'll be watching for those. Some of those will will, will, could 00:03:46
potentially affect the city. There will be transportation bills, for example. There will be there. There could be a bill on tax 00:03:52
increment financing in fact. 00:03:58
This coming session, so we'll watch for the bills coming forward that may affect the city, may be of interest to the city, and let 00:04:05
you know what those are when they're made available. But as you know, most bills aren't made public until into the legislative 00:04:09
session, sometimes late into the legislative session. 00:04:14
So we like them earlier because it's it's an easier way to get ahold of them. Also, this is the time when the governors office, 00:04:19
the the executive branch starts preparing their budget. The governor submits his budget to the legislature every fall, usually 00:04:25
October. 00:04:30
That's a recommendation of a budget because the legislative branches has a power of the purse, as you know. So it's a 00:04:36
recommendation that the governors office prepares. They're taking feedback from all the executive agencies right now. That 00:04:43
includes issues like roads and transit and other things that the state pays for it. 00:04:50
And so there's there will be a flurry of activity in September and October regarding. 00:04:57
Spending issues regarding probably housing, probably transportation, probably lots of things that you all want to be aware of and 00:05:04
we'll be watching those and, and we'll make you aware of what we know of when we know of it that would have impact on the city so 00:05:11
we can have input early. It's a lot easier to amend things early than to try to change things late. 00:05:18
So. 00:05:25
In addition to that, we've been working. 00:05:27
With the city, with staff and with the mayor on some of the regional. 00:05:31
Issues like the ongoing discussions with Union Pacific Railroad about realignment of airlines and how that impacts the region. 00:05:37
There are discussions going on about regional transportation issues that that regarding the Olympics, the Olympics. 00:05:45
Transportation Plan has been published, but it doesn't include a lot of things that will get added to it overtime. 00:05:53
I'm I'm so old that I was actually working for Senator Bob Bennett, US Senator Bob Bennett, who was an appropriator the last for 00:06:00
the last Olympics. And there there will be a. 00:06:05
A lot of money that comes from the federal government to support the Olympics and and. 00:06:12
How that gets allocated and how that gets how those appropriations get done and where they get done will be have a big impact on 00:06:17
the state. It's quite a big cash infusion for the state and a lot of infrastructure in particular can be done in those periods of 00:06:22
time. 00:06:27
There's so there were conversations for example going on now about the fact that the Provo airport is increasing in its service. 00:06:33
It's increasing including international service and moving people from that airport to to venues, whether they be the ice rink, 00:06:40
which is will be just up the street or whether it be up to Heber Valley or to points N. How you move people from that airport 00:06:46
efficiently that are here for the games will be discussed. 00:06:53
And they will very likely be funding. 00:07:00
Associated with that. And so those conversations are starting now because there's the Olympic planning will begin because ten 00:07:03
years will go by fast. So again, you're in the Vineyard city, being in the middle of of this valley and on the transportation 00:07:07
corridors. 00:07:12
You'll want to be part of those conversations, so we're watching those and monitoring those as well. There are, there will always 00:07:18
be. 00:07:22
A myriad of water issues and other things that come up that could affect your city, so we watch for those. 00:07:26
And. 00:07:32
I guess if you have any questions, I'm happy to take them, but that's kind of. 00:07:34
What starts really, it's post Labor Day. Things get really crazy. One of the things that we're going to be doing as we move into 00:07:37
this year is we're going to be having legislative review meetings with our government consultants so we can start prepping for 00:07:43
what we want to see as a council. And then we'll bring that back. There's ongoing projects, of course, like the railroad and our 00:07:49
transit and transportation and water and everything that Jeff mentioned, but. 00:07:55
Other things that we're interested, we'll have those discussions down the line. So any questions? 00:08:02
Just say one for the community. With the constitutional amendments on the ballot, do you have a recommendation where voters can go 00:08:11
and get more information? 00:08:14
Yeah, well, the Lieutenant Governor's office will have links to. 00:08:20
Pro the each side pro and con, it's the same thing. That's published in the Voter Information Guide. Those haven't been written 00:08:23
yet, but they will be. I can't remember the timeline, but they're required well in advance. And so the, the, if you go to 00:08:29
elections.utah.gov, you'll be able to find links to those in addition. 00:08:34
I can promise you there will be no shortage of information sent to you by both sides of all issues. 00:08:41
It'll be election year mail overwhelming volumes in your mailboxes again. But you know, some of these issues are are. 00:08:49
Can be pretty important to how things function in the state, especially when they talk about, you know, ballot initiatives and 00:08:59
election laws and things like that. So but for the constitutional amendment, so those ballot measures have written pro and cons 00:09:04
that get published. So those of you, they'll be available soon, yeah. 00:09:10
All of our previous clients are actually listed there, so when you unregister for client it stays there so you can see past 00:09:47
clients as well. 00:09:50
I noticed in the article that was published in by the Salt Lake Tribune through the. 00:09:54
I want to quote this right the journalism project. 00:10:00
That you guys, it was disclosed that you guys, it was fought by the Bensons to not have your names released and it went to court 00:10:05
for the past four years and you guys were a subcontractor listed. Why? Why are we fighting to not know that you're connected? I'm 00:10:12
sorry, when you say you guys what, who are you guys, me in particular? 00:10:18
The Big Game Forever Foundation. 00:10:26
You guys were subcontractors and made a total of. 00:10:30
20%, it's in the article. My question is, is why are we fighting for four years for the Ryan Benson and Stage consulting to hide 00:10:36
the fact that you're one of the subcontractors in that fighting for the Gray Wolf? Well, I'm not sure where you're getting the 00:10:44
term hiding, but I wasn't involved in any of that. So I can't answer that question. Taking it to court to the records request. 00:10:53
To stop it from coming up. I wasn't involved in any of that so I can't answer your question. 00:11:02
Point of order, I don't know what this has to do with our council, so you could clarify and. 00:11:06
But this doesn't have anything to do with us, has everything to do with how he. 00:11:12
Can you clarify what you mean? Because I don't see it right now. Yeah, it it, it has to do with how many different people he's 00:11:16
representing and if there's a conflict of interest. And I think he stated clearly that it's made public. It's online and right. 00:11:22
But as a subcontractor that wouldn't be listed. Only the main contract. It was listed. I had to register. You can see that I'm 00:11:29
registered. I was registered for them at that time. I was registered for as a subcontractor. Yeah. OK. 00:11:35
Mayor, if if the line of question is going to be directed at character and fitness issues, yes, those can be taken to closed 00:11:44
session or a conversation with Mr. Hart. And I'm happy to have a conversation with you offline about all of these questions as 00:11:49
I've offered in the past. Please refrain from any of those questions in this meeting that has anything to do with character or 00:11:54
fitness. Thank you. 00:11:58
Any other questions that are relevant to this meeting? 00:12:06
I just like to state for the record that I disagree with the way in which the city approves this. 00:12:10
Just to have it on the record in a nice kind way. I don't know what you mean by approves this, just having a lobbyist. I don't 00:12:15
think it's the approach the Vineyard City should have. OK, thank you. All right, thank you so much. Does anybody else have any 00:12:21
other questions or comments? 00:12:26
Thank you for coming down. Thanks for all you do. We appreciate it. Thanks. 00:12:31
All right. 00:12:37
That moves us into a closed session. 00:12:39
What we will do is you guys can remain here and our council will leave the room for a closed session and I'm going to have, we'll 00:12:42
get a motion to go into it. This will be for the discussion of character, professional competence or physical or mental health 00:12:50
health of an individual. So I need a motion to go into that. Do I have to restate that? Yes, please. 00:12:57
Just wanted to state it for the public so they knew. 00:13:05
OK, I move to go into a closed session immediately in the conference room here at the city offices to discuss the character, 00:13:08
professional competence, or physical or mental health of an individual. 00:13:13
Can I get a second? 00:13:19
Second, all in favor roll call. Jake, Amber. Aye, yes. Marty, Sarah. Yes. All right, we will be back. 00:13:24
And for your patience, we are going to move on to appointments. 00:13:37
Appointment of a library board member. 00:13:42
We have Diana Steele here to fill the remainder of Pilar Stills Term as one of our Vineyard Library Board members and she will 00:13:46
fill out the remainder of Peeler Stills Term and I just need a motion to approve that appointment. 00:13:55
As an alternate for that term, and if you want to come up and say anything you can do you want to come up and say anything? Okay, 00:14:05
come on up. 00:14:10
No, I don't have a lot to say, but thank you for this opportunity. And I just love libraries, so thank you. Thank you. 00:14:15
All right. Can I get a motion? Yeah. I moved to approve the mayor's appointment to the library that, I'm sorry, the Vineyard 00:14:23
Library board as presented. Can I get a second? 00:14:27
Second, All right. First by Marty, second by Sarah. All in favor. Aye. All right, welcome. Thank you so much for taking the 00:14:33
opportunity to serve our community. We appreciate it. 00:14:39
OK. 00:14:45
Should we do it with the Youth Council or in order? 00:14:46
OK, I was thinking we do the youth council and then we just do it all and get pictures all at the same time. All right. The youth 00:14:49
council, our executive board had an election and we have a new youth council mayor and manager. And so I'm just going to read your 00:14:55
names and make that appointment and then our council will vote you in and then we will go ahead and swear you all in and we'll get 00:15:01
some pictures with you. 00:15:07
So let's see, the elections were held on July 15th, 2024 and these are our youth Mayor Ashland May Youth Council City Manager 00:15:13
Russell Rasmussen, Youth Recorder Beckham Sifuentes, Youth Communications Chair Dalia de la Piedra. 00:15:23
Youth Services and beautification chair Morgan Preet. Youth Council activities chair Darius. 00:15:33
Viagra and city recorder Pamela Spencer will swear you guys in I was reading you into youth. OK I need AI need a motion. 00:15:40
I did. I said the city recorders name and I even mentioned Pam. I mentioned all the names written. 00:15:51
I did OK, All right. Can I get a motion to appoint those youth council members? 00:15:56
I move to a point. I'm sorry. I move to approve the mayor's appointments to the Vineyard Youth Council Executive Board as 00:16:02
presented. Thank you. Can I get a second, second, second by Amber? All in favor? Aye. OK. Now we will start our swearing in 00:16:07
ceremony. 00:16:12
Come on up, Pan. 00:16:18
Stand up here. I don't think we have any more. 00:16:21
Come on up to stand in front of the mayor there. 00:16:29
You can repeat after me, raise your right, go ahead and. 00:16:32
Raise your right hand and then repeat after me. I state your name. 00:16:37
Having been elected and appointed to the Youth Council Executive Board and appointed to the. 00:16:44
Library Board. 00:16:49
Having been elected to the library board, thank you. 00:16:52
That's OK. 00:16:55
Having been elected and appointed to these Council Executive Board. 00:16:57
Do solemnly swear. Do solemnly swear. 00:17:05
That I will support, obey and defend. 00:17:08
The Constitution of the United States, The Constitution of the United States, and the Constitution of the State of Utah. Utah. 00:17:12
And that I will discharge the duties of my office and then I will discharge the duties of my office with fidelity. With fidelity. 00:17:22
Thank you. Congratulations. 00:17:26
Okay. 00:17:34
Pictures. 00:17:39
Oh, shoot. Can we? I can't. Yeah. Thank you. 00:17:51
Did you come back? 00:18:03
Thank you. 00:18:10
Diana Russell, if you come over here, I'll have you sign those. Thank you. Thank you. 00:18:12
No, that's why. 00:18:19
Take the brakes off. Let me be. 00:18:21
All right, that brings us right into our work session. We're going to start out with a mobility device and golf cart discussion by 00:18:28
Lieutenant Rockwell, and he'll present some recommended changes or options for our municipal code. 00:18:34
Where are you? There you are. 00:18:42
I will swap you because you might have to leave. Yes. 00:18:45
OK. We're actually going to move on to 5.4, the residential North Point Pass discussion for potential opportunity for passes for 00:18:48
our residents. Eric might have to leave a little bit early, so we're going to move this up. 00:18:56
OK. So thank you, everyone. This is kind of an exciting opportunity that we have. 00:19:04
We've been doing a little bit of research on neighboring cities, and every year we do a spring, a spring cleanup, and a fall 00:19:11
cleanup, and we bring dumpsters into the city. 00:19:16
And. 00:19:23
There are some challenges associated with that for residents. 00:19:24
You don't always have the thing that you wanted to get rid of that's too large to put in the garbage can. 00:19:29
In the fall or in the spring on those specific dates, and from a staffing standpoint, it takes a lot of work to get out there and 00:19:34
keep that those bins smashed down. 00:19:39
And So what other cities have been doing and not all some, some do what we do, but other cities have have worked with North Point 00:19:44
to establish a punch pass. So every resident in the city gets what we're proposing would be a 2A2 punch pass option. So that at 00:19:51
any point during the year, if, if your dishwasher goes out, you can throw the dishwasher in the back of the, the, the vehicle, 00:19:59
take it to the transfer station and you use your punch pass and that waves the $12.00. 00:20:06
For the first 625 lbs of of trash that you would like to take there, that's kind of your large stuff so that you can clean up 00:20:14
whenever that's convenient. And we feel that from a convenient standpoint to residents and a convenient standpoint for. 00:20:22
Managing those spring and fall cleanups. 00:20:31
It would be a great option to shift to this. 00:20:35
Punch pass option in lieu of the the spring and fall cleanups. 00:20:39
And and I would add that. 00:20:44
A couple small details. The cost could be incorporated into our trash collection. 00:20:46
So that the punch pass wouldn't cost anything extra for residents. And the the other housekeeping item would be that you would 00:20:53
need to come. All residents that have an account for trash collection would need to come to the city, grab a physical pass because 00:20:59
we would need to do something on it to kind of make it unique. 00:21:04
But that that would be how that project or process would work. 00:21:12
Yeah. And there's different options we can look at with opt in or opt out. One of the reasons that this conversation came forward 00:21:15
is because there are some of the dumpsters that are being overfilled in the community and it's really difficult to clean them up. 00:21:21
And so the idea was, do we lock those dumpsters? One of the reasons why it's there is because there was so much dumping happening 00:21:27
along the shoreline and in different various areas where we were trying to say please don't put your couches on the side of the 00:21:33
road or down by the shoreline. 00:21:39
And we needed to go pick up trash and then bring it to these areas. But now they're overfilling and they're overfilling 00:21:46
continuously. And even though we do the spring and fall cleanup, I think residents are looking for another option. And so we 00:21:52
wanted you to start vetting what that looks like and how to either participate or why you would or wouldn't want to participate. 00:21:58
So if you have any questions or discussion points tonight, as you've heard from residents or if you have thoughts about how to 00:22:04
move into. 00:22:09
Program like that, this would be a great time to discuss it before we bring it back to a business item. 00:22:15
I'm torn because I know a lot of residents are constantly texting me throughout the year. Hey, I've been waiting for this spring 00:22:22
cleanup. So it'd be cool to be able to say, oh, you don't have to wait like you can load up your truck and then take it. But a lot 00:22:28
of residents like the convenience. That's why they're using our dumpsters because they like having it in town. And so I'm I'm 00:22:34
honestly torn. I think it would be interesting to see the cost difference that possibly you said that you would have to compare 00:22:40
the numbers with. 00:22:45
Or did you say it would be even? 00:22:52
It's probably a little bit more expensive to do the punch pass option, but we could incorporate that into. 00:22:55
Into the fees that we charge already, so it wouldn't come at a an extra cost, the Republic Services just you know. 00:23:02
Spoiler alert. 00:23:11
On our consolidated fee schedule, Republic Services has has increased their rate this year. So we're we're proposing a slight 00:23:13
increase in our in our trash collection. And with that slight increase we can incorporate the punch pass option into into the fee 00:23:20
so that people don't have to pay the extra. It would otherwise be $24.00. 00:23:27
Is what is what the city gets billed for those two punches? 00:23:35
Another thing you'll probably need to review is. 00:23:39
If we do lock the dumpsters during the times where it's not spring and fall cleanup, what happens if people are dumping couches? 00:23:43
Because that's one of the issues that we're facing is how do we I. 00:23:50
Kind of stop them from doing that. And so are there fees associated? Are there signs what kind of ability to do we have to put 00:23:58
someone over to observe that situation? Those are some other things that will come back into play in this discussion. 00:24:04
And if you would like some feedback, we've we've been discussing those issues as well. And what we're proposing right now is to 00:24:10
get all of our dumpsters into compliance with our own city code and have an enclosure for each of those. 00:24:16
And the ones that we want the public to be using will will keep them open and put signage on them that says please don't put large 00:24:23
trash. This is for keeping our shorelines clean. You know, day picnic stuff, by all means toss it in here. But anything larger 00:24:29
than that, please use your punch pass. 00:24:35
Any of our ones that are not intended to be for public use where you know, near our parks where it's simply a, it's a dumpster so 00:24:42
that our park staff can take empty all the trash cans and put those in the dumpsters. We will lock the gates when they're not 00:24:49
being used. We'll put signage on them and we'll have a camera near that says and we'll keep the the lids closed. So if you're 00:24:56
throwing a couch over an enclosure that's locked onto the top of a dumpster that is closed. 00:25:02
You know that you did something wrong and when someone shows up to give you a ticket. 00:25:10
You know you got caught for the right reason. 00:25:14
And so we'll make it very clear that certain dumpsters are for public use and others are not. 00:25:16
OK, any questions on this right now or would you like to? Well, it'll I just have one thing newsletter just recently. 00:25:23
Yeah, usually it comes with a coupon, right? We get like a postcard. So it had one and it does have, it has a, yeah, a coupon to 00:25:33
go. I wonder if you could just instead of a punch pass, because needing to come to the city to get a punch pass a little 00:25:40
inconvenient. But if we did like a citywide newsletter, Spring and fall that had that too. I thought that was a really good idea. 00:25:47
Just if, yeah, if, if, if a physical mailing is taking place, then we could, that is another way to get them out. Well, I mean, we 00:25:55
just need to make sure that they're an original copy because the city will get billed. 00:26:00
$12.00 each time the transfer station tracks that and then they just send a bill to the city for each each one that is is used. So 00:26:07
we wouldn't want to make it so that it was something that. 00:26:13
That could be replicated easily and everybody's dump, you know, 100 dumps for the year would get thrown into our our billing. 00:26:20
And if residents have any comments on this, you can mention it during public comment, but you could also just leave your or e-mail 00:26:28
us and connect with one of our staff members over here and submit your comment and we will incorporate that into what we are 00:26:33
working on and talking about. 00:26:38
Any other questions from the Council? 00:26:44
OK. Thank you so much, Eric. We look forward to discussing this more. 00:26:47
We'll go back to 5.1. 00:26:52
With our Lieutenant. 00:26:55
I'm going to back this up just a little bit. I talked too loud to be that close to you. 00:27:01
Good evening. So we put this on the work session tonight for a couple reasons. And we said golf carts and mobility devices because 00:27:07
it's really hard to quantify, you know, is it an electric scooter or electric bike, a moped, a go pet, a auto cycle, auto driven 00:27:13
cycle? I mean there's a hundred different types of devices out there. So mobility device, what we're talking about is things that 00:27:19
are like electric or gas powered thing self-propelled via vehicles or devices. 00:27:26
Couple things that brought this up. We've had some recent complaints about golf carts. 00:27:33
And even scooters and other things on our sidewalks and trails and roads. I've had two incidents that the Sheriff's Office 00:27:38
recently with golf carts. We had one run through the fence of Grove Park, had another one over on the overpass where somebody was 00:27:44
driving a golf cart on the sidewalk and a scooter was going the other direction and there was a collision. We didn't really 00:27:50
determine who was at fault because we had different stories on what happened. We did have that incident. 00:27:57
We also had a video sent to me from one of you about a golf cart incident right here on Center St. 00:28:04
Where the golf cart was going eastbound on Center St. Got to the roundabout, didn't even look or yield, just entered right into 00:28:09
the roundabout right in front of a car. Golf cart ended up going off the side up near the wall and there was a scooter going by at 00:28:13
the same time. It was great. 00:28:17
We've also we I just got an e-mail from a resident who runs in the city about some some conflicts with him running and cars, but 00:28:23
also people using a scooter on the sidewalk or electric bike cruising really fast on the sidewalk. That was a close call. So 00:28:28
that's some of the stuff that's brought it up. The other thing that is in speaking with Brian and Parks, they have some concerns 00:28:33
about. 00:28:38
These devices within our parks, especially during like soccer games where the soccer game ends and people are driving their golf 00:28:43
carts out onto the field or out onto the grass to pick up kids or whatever, and it's just kind of chaotic at that time. So we got 00:28:48
some safety concerns. Also, obviously concerns with tearing up the grass or ruining things that would cause them to have to do 00:28:52
more maintenance. 00:28:57
So what I'd like to do tonight is just kind of get a feel of where you guys stand on what you'd like to see. 00:29:03
I'm going to go over some of the stuff we already have in place and what our current laws are and then whatever you guys 00:29:09
recommend. I have some recommendations or some ideas that we could do. But really before we get really knee deep or get deep into 00:29:15
drafting ordinances, just want to see what is something that you'd be interested in potentially passing or or at least looking at. 00:29:21
So I think for me, we could definitely brush up on our main roads and thoroughfares. I think it's. 00:29:28
Kind of bold to take your golf cart out on a place that's like people are going 4050 mph. Yeah, yeah. And we'll talk about that. 00:29:34
So right now, if we're talking about golf carts, golf carts are not allowed on roads and vineyards by state code. State codes says 00:29:42
that golf carts cannot be operated on a road. However, municipalities can allow them on on roads. And then they can, as long as 00:29:49
they're specifying and taking precautions that it's safe and specifying when, who and where those can be operated on. 00:29:57
Currently, as far as our sidewalks and trails go, we don't have anything particularly banning a golf cart or any kind of electric 00:30:05
device on our sidewalks or our trails. Right now. What we have in place is there's no off Hwy. vehicles on those on sidewalks or 00:30:12
trails. And that state code defines there's three different grades of off Hwy. vehicles, but that's more like your 4 Wheelers and 00:30:19
your side by sides and your motorcycles and three Wheelers, whatever that would be. 00:30:25
Within our parks, we don't really have anything that says you couldn't, couldn't drive those within the parks right now. 00:30:33
As far as on the grass or even on the sidewalk or trails, obviously our park rules like at Grove Park say you can't have them in 00:30:39
the splash pad, but that's not an actual ordinance. It's just one of our park rules that's that's written on there. 00:30:46
So that's kind of where we stand right now as far as what we have. We do have speed limits in place on our trails of 15 miles an 00:30:52
hour. Sidewalk doesn't really have that. We have something in place that says you have to be basically driving or doing things 00:30:57
safely on our sidewalks and trails as far as safe travel. 00:31:02
Run the plate, try to contact the owner, kind of take a more conservative approach of being friendly and trying to get people to 00:31:39
comply before we take such drastic measures as towing vehicle. The same has been true with golf carts and things on our roads and 00:31:44
things like that. We aren't out issuing citations to people driving their golf carts on the streets or the sidewalks and things 00:31:48
like that. 00:31:53
Now, if they're doing this unsafely, we're going to go talk to them and, and hey, or they got 10 kids hanging off the sides and 00:31:58
it's unsafe. That's something to talk to him about. But we haven't been issuing citations for that, even though technically they 00:32:05
can't be on the roads. So just to put that out there, how, how enforcement is going, We can be more, more, we can increase that 00:32:11
enforcement. Obviously, if that's the desire of the council or if we continue to see the issues, we, we could do that as well. So. 00:32:17
What the preference is and and speaking with Brian at parks, if we go over that first and what we'd like to see in the parks is 00:32:24
potentially we could look at no motorized scooters, bikes, golf carts, etcetera, within, on the grass or within the open space of 00:32:28
the park. 00:32:32
We can allow continue to allow them to be on the trails. We could put something in place like they're restricted to designated 00:32:37
sidewalks or trails. 00:32:41
They can't be on the grass unless they're parked there and so many feet from a trail or a sidewalk. We could do something like 00:32:44
that. 00:32:47
Harriman, for example, they don't allow them in their open space. They recently did a, a post basically showing a, a bike trail 00:32:52
that was worn into the grass and said they're not allowed in the open spaces. You can't have them there. And they have that in 00:32:58
their ordinance, ordinance. And that's really in speaking to Brian, in the parks, that's kind of what their desire would be is to 00:33:03
try to keep them out of those open spaces within our parks. 00:33:09
Say, Brian, is there a code that says, hey, we don't want him here, but we do want them here because this community loves. 00:33:15
Yes. So we could specify areas that they would be allowed. The same thing goes for when we're talking about like other areas like 00:33:23
the streets and stuff for golf carts. We are. We definitely have the ability to say we'll allow golf carts on any road 25 miles an 00:33:30
hour slower and any trail 8 feet or wider. We could definitely do that. I would. I don't think I'd recommend allowing them on golf 00:33:38
carts on sidewalks. Sidewalks 5 feet wide, golf carts 4 feet wide doesn't leave enough room for people to pass. 00:33:45
We want to be able to have that still still exist on our sidewalks, but we definitely have the ability that we could restrict it 00:33:53
down to that and say, hey, you can have those in this area, in these parks and we could, we could specify that, for example. I 00:33:59
mean, I've been searching a lot on other cities on golf carts and all these things. Very few have ordinances on golf carts right 00:34:06
now. Saint George just did pass one in May where they do allow golf carts on certain streets. 00:34:13
During daylight hours, you have to be 16 years of old of age or older to operate the golf cart. 00:34:20
And then they actually in their code list out the streets that they are allowed on certain neighborhoods and certain areas that 00:34:25
they're allowed. So we could do that. 00:34:30
And we have the ability to say what age we want them to be. If we wanted to say 16 or, you know, some areas in other states say 00:34:36
you have to be. 00:34:41
You have to have an active drivers license if you're to be 16, but if you're 18 or older, you just have to have an ID to be able 00:34:46
to operate a golf cart. So on a on a city street. 00:34:51
The other thing we could do that was brought up with potentially is if we wanted to require some kind of a course that this we 00:34:57
could provide. I mean I could come up with some curriculum and kind of like the state is done with their new OHP course that they 00:35:01
make you go through if you want to drive a four Wheeler or side by side or things like that, that's something we could do to 00:35:05
increase safety. 00:35:09
Let's see what else I had on here. 00:35:16
Eagle Mountains, another one, I looked at them, they don't allow motor vehicles on there within their parks as well and that their 00:35:19
definition of that includes. 00:35:22
Tote gels, motorcycles, motorbikes, snowmobiles, anything like that within their parks. They don't allow that I. 00:35:27
Residents would be on board with that. We could at least look at start down a path of drafting an ordinance. I I specifically 00:36:03
think I. 00:36:07
In regards to the. 00:36:13
The electric vehicles on the grass, I think that's a really good rule, except I think a lot of people have expensive vehicles that 00:36:14
they don't want to leave, you know, 50 feet away from them while they're watching their soccer game. Like I think there's a 00:36:20
concern of that some of these electric bikes are really nice and people aren't going to feel comfortable setting them off to the 00:36:26
side while they're in the middle of the field. Do you have any thoughts towards that? So we could designate a parking area and put 00:36:32
in racks if we. 00:36:38
Interesting. Yeah, I think that's a good idea. 00:37:13
I like looking at the busy roads. I like the idea of finding where we don't want it, where we do want it. I thought those 00:37:16
opportunities with Saint George and Harriman, the open space was good. I'd be interested to find out what happens if we've lowered 00:37:22
the age. Are there suddenly different liabilities that are put on us for lowering an age for drivers or do we just not talk about 00:37:28
it? Liability is AJV question. 00:37:34
This is where it gets a little bit complicated because we're talking about a lot of different vehicle types. You you now see 00:37:43
electric skateboards that have a handheld control and can go at a pretty high speed, but. 00:37:50
An interaction with that kind of vehicle is really different than an interaction with the golf cart that weighs a lot more. 00:37:59
Takes up a lot more space and so. 00:38:04
One thing you could do is tailor your rules on the the vehicle type. I think when you're talking about the parks, you're concerned 00:38:07
about busy times when interaction with an electric vehicle and people walking. 00:38:14
Can be difficult and then the other thing you're dealing with is just damage to city property that is difficult to maintain if you 00:38:22
have. 00:38:26
If the fields wet and somebody's taking a golf cart across, it's going to damage the grass. 00:38:31
So. 00:38:37
Specifically with golf carts. 00:38:39
With how, if we were to say. 00:38:41
I'm just throwing out a number. I'm not suggesting it. You're saying like oh, 12 and up is fine on a golf cart. Does that make us 00:38:44
liable when a 12 year old is going on a golf cart? Before you answer my question, just to clarify, I think people are going to let 00:38:53
their young children drive golf carts and they I don't. I think enforcing this would be really hard. So liability in Utah is. 00:39:02
Varied in In some states, liability is if you're more than 50% responsible, you're fully responsible. 00:39:11
In Utah, liability can be shared among a number of different entities and cities can have liability. 00:39:18
The city's liability is reduced a little bit by the Governmental Immunity Act. There's procedures and then there's a per incident 00:39:25
and a per individual cap. 00:39:30
On damages, so you would certainly want to consult with your insurance provider to get their input on this because it will have an 00:39:36
effect on premiums if you do it as it relates to driving age and the type of vehicle and where those vehicles are allowed to 00:39:42
drive. 00:39:48
I think we need to look at that carefully. 00:39:54
You know, before you make those decisions, it may be that you say it's safe for. 00:39:57
Younger than 16, teenage driver to operate a golf cart on trails and sidewalks of a certain size, but not on roads where they're 00:40:04
going to mix with. 00:40:09
Vehicular traffic and those kinds of things. 00:40:15
And then I guess the other thing I would strongly urge is when you make these decisions, you do want to look. 00:40:18
Established design standards for these kinds of vehicles. There are a couple of different places that you can go to where those. 00:40:25
Standards would be acceptable, but the way I think of it on my mind is it's OK to be on the cutting edge. We don't want to be on 00:40:34
the bleeding edge. And so we'd like to follow what somebody else is or what a more national organization has blessed in terms of 00:40:40
design and what kind of vehicles can safely operate there. Before we say that's OK within the city, but I think you can get to a 00:40:46
place where. 00:40:52
If you want to allow. 00:40:59
People younger than 16 to operate certain types of vehicles. 00:41:02
On. 00:41:08
Where they're not mixed with automobile traffic that you probably can do it safely as long as you make sure the facilities that 00:41:10
are on are within established design standards. 00:41:14
Easement and things like that, and I could see that being meaningful, but otherwise wouldn't we just update our policy and enforce 00:41:50
on core routes? We could definitely increase enforcement when we see them on our bigger, busier roads, especially roads 30 miles 00:41:57
an hour faster. The state code basically says the municipality shall provide sufficient parameters regarding the operation of to 00:42:04
ensure public safety. That's the way the state code reads it. We have to ensure, you know, sufficient parameters to do that. 00:42:11
I will tell you the two incidents that I talked about, the fence and then the scooter and the golf cart, one driver was 15, one 00:42:19
was 14. So not that that's indicative of it, you know, widespread, but those two incidents, that's how old they. 00:42:25
And I think to be to be transparent, I think Parks is really interested in as far as timeline goes in trying to get something done 00:42:33
quicker as far as keeping them off the open space areas. So I think that may be a higher priority as far as what their their 00:42:40
desire to do if we want to take a little more time as far as the rest of you know, on the streets or sidewalks or trails. 00:42:47
We could definitely spend some time designating certain areas where we would want them and kind of come back with, hey, this is 00:42:55
what we think would be acceptable. 00:42:59
I feel like if you need to do something quick, I even feel like we could just update our park policy for certain areas. Yeah, we 00:43:03
definitely could. We make a clarification and hear me out, Brian, I care about your grass. What if people were to, could we allow 00:43:09
people to walk their bikes or walk their scooters on the grass? And I would say a hard, fast rule of no golf carts on the grass. 00:43:15
But I just worry that. 00:43:21
I want families to be able to, you know, feel like they're having their property and being able to keep it near. Feel like she 00:43:27
knows somebody that owns an electric scooter. 00:43:32
I may or may not have driven my electric scooter here. 00:43:39
Yeah. No, I think that's a great point to to bring up. There's a number of residents that have been coaching for us for years that 00:43:44
I know have some of those vehicles and are using them. There's just been a number of residents that have expressed concern and 00:43:50
seen near accidents. I. 00:43:57
So I do think I don't know what the solution is to that, so I want to think about that a little bit more. 00:44:04
Of I think. 00:44:11
Go ahead. I think walking a vehicle, just like an elementary school, you're allowed to bring your bike to the you ride your bike 00:44:13
to the property, and then you walk your bike in the rest of the way. 00:44:18
And I feel like walking an item is safer. I don't know if that will solve the grass issue. 00:44:22
That you could bring back to us quickly and then each council member can send their concerns or their experience with these 00:44:59
vehicles. 00:45:03
I'm pro golf cart and they're designed to be driven on grass. So they don't really do damage on grass. That's why they're designed 00:45:08
that way, right? But the damage isn't obviously it's a concern with certain types of vehicles, right? And and some golf carts, 00:45:14
depending on what kind of tires they put on them and if they've souped them up a little bit. Some of the golf carts you see are 00:45:19
not the golf carts you drive on your golf course. They're a little bit different, but the other one is more is more of the safety 00:45:24
too, right So. 00:45:30
I think. 00:45:36
I actually was at the National League of Cities and they were talking about how children's brains develop at an earlier age, the 00:45:38
sooner you can get them driving, and how cities should promote early driving 910 and 11 years old because it helps some kind of 00:45:44
figure it out. I thought that was pretty crazy because I learned how to drive a tractor at 11 years old with a baler and back 00:45:51
without lights on by moonlight. So. 00:45:57
But. 00:46:04
I think we want to be pro, but I think one adjustment where you could police that is if there are accidents you're giving a ticket 00:46:06
and you tell, I think that's hard of like give, give a citation, not give a citation. But I think if it's a clear delineated of 00:46:12
like what it is, hey, we are going to be pro, but parents if there is an accident. 00:46:18
There will be a citation that goes out. So teach your kids to be better. And then #2 IA 100% agree with getting golf carts off of 00:46:25
the sidewalks. Like that's where I think your problem is, is it's two people going separate ways and it's like. 00:46:33
This one needs you need to be in the road. It's a slower Rd. but you're still on the sidewalk type thing. So if there's 00:46:41
delineation on a map that you say like hey do not be on the sidewalk here. 00:46:47
Because it is such a slow street, right? And then lastly, I met with Strongtown, the what's his name, my buddy last night about 00:46:53
strong Towns. And it's actually, there's a couple of videos about how people won't agree, but the golf carts actually slow down 00:47:00
traffic because people will see it and they'll get our cars to drive even though they only go 2025 miles an hour. That's kind of 00:47:07
what we want them driving anyway in terms of where it's going and so. 00:47:14
There's study after study that if if they're not there and you know, you have the visualization. 00:47:21
And it's wide open. They're just going to drive like crazy. So those are my feedback of adjustments. Can I just add, I assume 00:47:27
Jordan? Yeah, Jordan, this is also a good opportunity, Jordans on the bike Commission to collaborate with the bike Commission. 00:47:33
They're looking for opportunities to add more facilities for bike parking and things like that. So they might be able to give you 00:47:39
some good insight. Can we have them lead it? Because he's great. 00:47:45
Sure. 00:47:52
So as far as enforcement goes, just everyone's on that. You understand, the only thing I can issue a citation for right now is if 00:47:55
they're on the streets, right? That's the only as far as a golf cart goes, not sidewalks, not a sidewalk, because we don't have an 00:48:01
ordinance against that in the state. Can't wait till they break a rule and get onto the road and be like, hey. 00:48:06
I could, if it's not written, it doesn't exist. Holden needs a written rule. So yeah, the state law is no roads. I think we could 00:48:14
write a pro golf course kind of thing where we keep them off those main roads and we keep them off sidewalks, but we allow them to 00:48:19
be on paths. And I like that idea for a long term approach. And my thought in speaking about it, I can get with Naseem as far as 00:48:25
like the like you're talking about like building standards for where they're allowed, where they're not and and work with him on 00:48:30
that as well. So. 00:48:36
But I also think if we drafted something as code of like when you do see it and it is a minor that we have some sort of paperwork 00:48:42
of like. 00:48:46
Hey, you're a parent. Would love to know that my kid is doing such because a lot of times we'll get sent things of like this bad 00:48:51
behavior that a visit by you is very helpful for parents. When we encounter juveniles, we always speak well as long as we can get 00:48:59
ahold of parents, we always and just advising people to contact you with take pictures, videos or whatever to solve it. I do, I 00:49:06
think it's smart if they're going to be under 16 that we have some kind of city certification because we have that. 00:49:14
I think it was 14, they decided it was farmland, right? And everybody rode their four Wheelers everywhere. But this is this is 00:49:21
more congested. And I feel like if you want to give that right to somebody under 16, they should go through a city certification 00:49:27
and we can decide what that age is, if we want it to be 12 or 14, right? I think we can just see what the need is and reach out to 00:49:33
the community. But I think that's I think that's really important because I think when the younger they are right, maybe the more 00:49:39
reckless. 00:49:45
Can be right. And if they go through the certification, then they understand, right, the risks involved and their parents sign off 00:49:51
that they get that certification. I think that would be really valuable. And Brian, is it the entire grass field that you're 00:49:59
worried about or could they bring him on to the perimeter around the the sidewalk? Yeah. So one thing that we talked about Holden 00:50:06
and I was we just have something in place to where they can just park it within, you know, 5 to 10 feet of the trail. 00:50:13
And then they can just walk the rest of the way. Because one thing I didn't mention too is it's also kind of a space thing. We 00:50:22
have about 25 feet between fields and you've got parents on both sides. And so there's really not a whole lot of room for a golf 00:50:28
cart or or bikes and things without obstructing. 00:50:34
I guess for people to walk, they have to go around and then they're ******* into people. 00:50:41
But they could park near the game, just not. 00:50:47
Far into the field, yeah. And I, I'm just a little worried that if we allow people to even just walk these vehicles on, it'll be a 00:50:50
little bit hard to enforce because there's other incidents where, say, for example, movie at a park and there's dirt bikes that 00:50:56
are driving through the field. 00:51:02
Right during the middle of the movie, Um. 00:51:09
And or there's just, you know, golf carts that are just zoom in and there's games going, kids are running around it just I see a 00:51:13
lot of room for potential accidents, but I do want to be open to. 00:51:20
Solutions to that? So I'd be happy to also reach out to a resident that I know has a golf cart to kind of get. 00:51:28
Their thoughts on maybe what a happy medium would be and see if we can figure out a solution that way. Let's move forward with 00:51:36
that. You go ahead and work on that policy and bring it back and then we can have longer term discussion council. If you have 00:51:40
additional thoughts on this, please make sure you're emailing Eric and copying these guys in. So thank you. This is really 00:51:45
helpful. OK. 00:51:50
All right, we'll move on to our agenda management and our city recorder. Pam will discuss. 00:51:55
This item. 00:52:01
It's like, what is it? 00:52:04
This item is part of my life, so yeah, I'd love to discuss it with everybody first. I just I, just I. 00:52:08
I went through and I. 00:52:18
Figured out how I put together an agenda and so I did this this little paper I split everything up on it and our timeline and 00:52:20
everything that we do. But I thought I'd give another little bit more background on this is that state code requires us in our 00:52:29
open and public meetings act to have an agenda and that agenda should be have I cannot say this words reasonable specificity. 00:52:37
To notify them. But what is on the agenda so that people understand what's on the agenda? 00:52:47
Itself the agenda. 00:52:52
Has to have the date, time, place. 00:52:56
They were holding it and then just this. 00:52:59
A synopsis kind of, of what is going to be discussed on the agenda. Can't talk about anything that's not on the agenda unless 00:53:02
there's emergency. 00:53:07
Those types of things. But we're not going to go into all that because it's Jamie's job to teach Open Public meetings ACT because 00:53:13
I assigned it to him. 00:53:17
Not today, though. 00:53:21
But anyway. 00:53:23
There's noticing requirements that go with agendas. 00:53:25
And so. 00:53:29
In the state code, no less than 24 hours to post an agenda unless it's an emergency, and there's only certain things that might be 00:53:31
considered an emergency. But the. 00:53:36
So that no less than 24 hours public notice is kind of what we we hit. 00:53:45
And I can be honest with you, and I know you're pushing for. 00:53:50
Publishing them earlier. 00:53:55
But that 24 hours is a little stressful in our department. 00:53:59
And so I have always pushed, I would love to do the day before. We tried Friday before those types of things, but it was, it's 00:54:03
always something comes up, there's an issue and we're always amending things. And I reached out to some other cities. 00:54:11
I'm not going to go through everything I wrote up, but you can reach out to me on some other things. But I reached out some other 00:54:20
cities to find out when they're doing them. Cedar Hills is the Friday before Tuesday meeting, Drapers Thursday before the Tuesday 00:54:26
meeting. Eagle Mountain was Friday before Tuesday meeting. So you can see they're kind of all over the place. And then the the fun 00:54:31
one was was Orem. And then she said they do it. 00:54:37
Like just a couple days before the meeting but I can't remember when their meetings. I don't know why I didn't put them in here. 00:54:44
Anyway, but then I looked at their website and their postings are all over the place. So we're at least consistent, right on that. 00:54:51
Some of the concerns that they had with posting too early, they agreed that seven days was way too was too soon. And they said 00:54:58
some of the concerns that they had with it was that you posted seven days and then things come up. 00:55:06
That then you're amending your agenda and they said it just doesn't look good and it confuses people as to what's on the agenda. 00:55:16
If you mend it once and then you mend it three times. So something like that. I would say we amend it once and that's it. You 00:55:23
know, maybe that within that 24 hours if we need to amend it or something. Regardless of when you guys decide you want us to try 00:55:30
to post these agendas. Some of the things that I want to bring up though, is to why I wouldn't recommend the full seven days. 00:55:37
Is this like, for instance, we have a public hearing where it needs to go to Planning Commission first? 00:55:45
Then it goes to council the next week for consideration, which you have one of those on the agenda tonight. Well, they don't have 00:55:51
time to get that report ready before they have the Planning Commission meeting. So having the report ready, they need to have time 00:55:57
to, if Planning Commission has any additional recommendations to get those reports updated and into the agenda packet so that you 00:56:04
guys have all the information that you need those packets or for the council's. 00:56:11
Use there for the council so they can see what's being changed. 00:56:19
There's certain things you can't approve without a resolution or an ordinance in front of you and the supporting documents that go 00:56:23
with it and have some of those to rush them to get those done. 00:56:28
You know, is it could be a little frustrating for those trying to do it. We also have posting deadlines for those public hearings 00:56:35
that I was talking about. 00:56:39
Like budget is 7 days out so I'd be posting a public hearing the same day of posting the agenda for it. 00:56:43
Land use is 10 days and there is 10 days, but there are other ones that there's other ones that are different days. And so it's 00:56:50
kind of crazy how we can how we would work things out. So we may know some things ahead of time, but we might not before those 00:56:56
seven days. So, so those are some other things that. 00:57:03
There's just a few of the things I wanted to bring up on that the other question was having if we could have the fiscal impact on 00:57:12
the consent item itself. 00:57:17
We've, we talked about it, we said, well, it's not impossible. We'd have to go figure out what that is. But there are issues with 00:57:24
having it there when we could have it in the staff report where they can spell it out. It's already in the staff report. You can 00:57:30
look at the staff report. If you're not finding it, please make sure you're reading the reports. 00:57:36
Because that's where it really should be. The other, the other concern on it is that some of those fiscal impacts are complex. And 00:57:42
so there's, there's going to be several numbers in there and they're not going to be totals that necessarily that you could put on 00:57:50
an agenda because they might be if this happens, then this and if this happens, then this would be the impact. And so putting that 00:57:57
as a on our on the headline in the, the consent might be a little. 00:58:05
Wordy when we've already gotten the staff report. So that's just a recommendation. What if you just put the word fiscal impact so 00:58:13
people knew it like this has a fiscal impact because to make sure everything has a fiscal impact. Yeah, yeah, if that's what you 00:58:17
guys want. 00:58:22
I'm just curious. 00:58:28
Would you like it like like right in the title that so that people are known to look for it? Sarah, what's your thought on it? 00:58:29
On the last agenda there were there were consent items and there were there was just a simple fiscal impact. 00:58:37
Amount and that was really helpful. But if it's more involved then maybe you just put you know that it's more involved and to see 00:58:42
other other documents to get information that that would be helpful. I think you're OK if it's just in the staff report, right, 00:58:49
You don't 'cause it, but just to let you know that there's a fiscal impact. 00:58:55
On the consent item, do you want it? I mean with that being since. 00:59:02
I guess because you're consolidated fee schedule in your budget might be the only other ones. 00:59:07
Any budget items in a business item would state that it's for a budget. So you would know to look for fiscal document explains it. 00:59:12
So if it was just put in there fiscal impact OK, for like contracts and bid awards and and different things like that put a fiscal 00:59:17
impact for it. 00:59:22
Could you also for your agenda, talk about how you guys operate your executive meetings and vet these things in those days? 00:59:29
You're talking about our staff meetings that we have. OK, so. 00:59:38
What happens with the agenda, I can just go a little bit detail there. So people submit items with our new agenda management 00:59:44
software. It has saved me many and Tony now Tony, many hours of work of changing and moving things around. So that's great to 00:59:51
throw that out there a little plug for that. But so staff are asked to put in their agenda items, then that goes through. 00:59:59
Verbal approval process right now with the city manager and the mayor. 01:00:08
And then they they put in their staff report or they put in any attachments they might have. But we do discuss it. 01:00:14
The day before council meeting, which we could probably change that if you guys at some point time decide that you want to put a, 01:00:21
some kind of a policy in as to when we do things. But we discussed those agenda items, what's going to happen with those agenda 01:00:28
items so that staff understands what's going on with them. And so we do discuss them during our staff meeting before council 01:00:35
meeting this Tuesday before the council meeting. 01:00:41
So, but yeah, no item goes on an agenda without an approval. Well, the reason why I asked you to mention it is because oftentimes 01:00:49
some of the amendments that come are because you're reviewing it, you're getting ready to post it, and then people find out what 01:00:56
is needed in order to complete the agenda item, which causes a change or an amendment. 01:01:03
And that is because those meetings are so close to each other back-to-back. That's what's been a little bit complicated for the 01:01:10
seven. We could probably do them, you know, the Tuesday before. 01:01:15
That, but still there's always things that come up that say, hey, we've got a deadline. 01:01:23
And so it needs to go on this agenda. So you're going to have things that come up. 01:01:29
The day before a council meeting that says, hey, this has got to go on an agenda. We've had that several times. 01:01:33
So I mean, this is just the way it runs, it works. I think the point is, is that if that happens, though, we're happy with having 01:01:41
it wait for the 8 days or 15 days so that the citizens have a right to be there. But sometimes we have deadlines we have to meet. 01:01:47
And so we can't wait those extra, that extra time. If it's a state deadline or a county deadline and they've just sent it to us, 01:01:54
then we're going to need to put it on that agenda. 01:02:00
In order to meet that deadline, so we're not losing out on a contract or funding or. 01:02:08
Or different things like that that that just. 01:02:13
Sometimes they're a little slower at getting things to us. 01:02:17
Sometimes we have developers, I mean, we don't have some of that now on our agenda, but we would have developers need to get your 01:02:20
red lines back to us, get your, get your correction, wait two weeks. 01:02:25
Sometimes it costs them money if they wait. 01:02:31
And so that's, that's another issue. But they would learn our process, right? I mean, they go at our speed, not we go to them. No. 01:02:34
But like I said, there are some things that there aren't gonna wait. The state's not gonna wait. The county South not gonna wait. 01:02:41
I yeah. And we don't have as many developers stuff anymore because it goes through the DRC committee Planning Commission. Yeah, 01:02:48
yeah. The reports they there's they cannot wait those extra two weeks. You're gonna cost the developer money. 01:02:55
And that's not gonna be be good if we have to wait. 01:03:02
And there's codes that we have to follow that says code here you have to go to by state law, I think. Yeah, there's some codes we 01:03:06
have to follow. 01:03:10
Yes. 01:03:14
OK, So what would your recommendation be, Pam, if not seven days? 01:03:15
If we can make it work, you know, I send you guys out the draft on Fridays, so I don't know how I would send you out a draft if we 01:03:21
posted them on Fridays. 01:03:26
But that would be up to you guys. But posting on Mondays. 01:03:32
What would be helpful as well? I mean that's 48 hours before the meeting or more so. 01:03:38
If we did the Thursday, that Thursday would be a crunch for depending on what's on the agenda. But I mean it is up to you guys 01:03:45
what you want. 01:03:50
Where you feel like it's reasonable, that's reasonable to me. We obviously do work sessions for things so that the public can see 01:03:57
it two weeks before and then we bring it back and we work that process in this year, which I feel like is working really well. 01:04:04
If we feel as a council we need to continue something, we can always continue it. So we have protocols for making sure that 01:04:13
there's enough public discussion. But if there's a reasonable timeline, you feel like you wanted it sooner and you wanted to post 01:04:20
on Mondays and you wanted to not do it 24 hours in advance and you think Thursday's the day. I think whatever you think is 01:04:27
meaningful because I know agendas are hard and they take time and there's a lot of people that work on them. 01:04:34
And being someone that has to go through it and see my process and make sure I'm meeting the council's process and then going 01:04:41
through and making sure we're making legal process. And then your process. It's a it's quite a task actually. And so if you feel 01:04:46
like there's opportunity. 01:04:51
I would love you to tell us and if you feel like there's not, I would love to watch the push. I think I mean right now and maybe 01:04:57
we we work it in slower, but if we made it so that they're posted on Mondays and then we reevaluate it to see what Friday would 01:05:05
look like for the Wednesday before, I wouldn't go any further than that. Your biggest issue is. 01:05:13
Just if we're needing to amend anything in the meantime, I think is what you're going to be. You've got holidays and stuff. So 01:05:23
maybe we need to post a little earlier. It might, you know, go a day later or something around holidays. 01:05:29
Different things like that, but those are some things we can work work around. 01:05:35
Yeah. So I just whatever you guys decide you want to do. 01:05:40
No, it makes sense. It makes sense to me. I. 01:05:46
To not do it too far ahead, I think that would be equally frustrating. If you did it seven days ahead and then there were three or 01:05:49
four amendments, right, I think that would be more frustrating than having to wait. If you could do it Monday. I love the draft on 01:05:54
Friday. I. 01:05:59
If it's not too stressful, I think Monday would be great. 01:06:05
And just for, for me, Sarah, if she was going to do it Monday, I would need it Thursday in order to get all of my things met. 01:06:11
Yeah, we could talk on Thursdays rather than Fridays and then send out the draft Friday. I'd have to do my review again, and then 01:06:18
we could do it Monday. But. 01:06:25
Half the people aren't working on Monday, I mean Friday, and they only work until 12. 01:06:32
But anytime we could do it sooner but. 01:06:38
Sometimes we take Monday to fix any issues and to have any legal discussions, so we'd have to shift it back. 01:06:40
I mean, I would love to post even by noon on Mondays if it's at all possible. Yeah, that would be ideal because I can give you an 01:06:47
example, and I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus or anything, but this just happened yesterday. We're posting the 01:06:53
agenda. I look up, we're putting it on the bullet board, and I discover that there's a public hearing notice I didn't know about. 01:07:00
And so I'm hurrying and just throwing it on and they were continuing it anyway, but I didn't know about it because I'd been on 01:07:07
vacation. I, I was told I'm not allowed to go on vacation again. So there you go now, you know. But anyway, so it's just an 01:07:13
example of issues of posting. 01:07:20
That so late in the day on a Tuesday. 01:07:27
That's been my stress for. 01:07:30
11 years well and that is stressful and any way we can make that stress go off, we if we could do it Monday, we would just have to 01:07:33
work together. 01:07:36
Yeah, I guess there or anybody just because I interrupted your comment, Sarah, my thing would be I think we should shoot for that 01:07:40
and then do our best to kind of start building a process to it and then before formalizing anything just to learn how it works. 01:07:46
Yeah, we'll start doing that with the with the next one and we'll add the fiscal impact on anything that's on consent or if maybe 01:07:52
it's not clear on a business item. 01:07:59
One thing that would be helpful because I know that we're going to have last minute change amendments and there's going to be 01:08:07
circumstances that are unavoidable and I know that'll put us down to that 24 hour mark. 01:08:12
And. 01:08:18
Even different with emergency things that qualify as an emergency, but I was wondering if we could just make a policy of a 01:08:19
standard that emergency last minute items won't be consent, that they will actually have to be something that's itemized. Do you 01:08:25
want a business item then, so that it's a discussion in action? Yeah. And I think, I think this is an interesting thing because at 01:08:32
any point you see something on consent that you don't want on there, just pull it off. 01:08:38
Sometimes we just do administrative things on there because otherwise the agenda can become. 01:08:45
Complex and it becomes too much of things that this will be like a two second thing that we don't actually need on the business 01:08:50
item. And so if you see something that looks complex that we missed that should have gone on business, my recommendation would 01:08:56
just be to pull it off because administratively this is just to conduct proper timing on the agenda. Yeah and and the the other 01:09:02
thing is is that almost. 01:09:08
Almost anything can go on consent, like the mayor said, and you can pull it off and talk about it. So that's something to to just 01:09:15
think about because what we're doing and the reason we're putting them on consent is so that you really only have to to do 1 01:09:21
motion on things you don't really. 01:09:26
We feel it doesn't need discussion. 01:09:32
And so, but if you see something in there, like Mayor said, then just you can pull it off. A consent. I don't think that's an 01:09:35
issue at all. Maybe it's more of a training issue because I think that as a new council member, it was a little bit overwhelming 01:09:41
to see the consent items and feel kind of this pressure, like, okay, everyone just voted for it. I better say aye. But if it's a 01:09:47
last minute item. 01:09:53
24 hours and I I go over the agenda all weekend and then Tuesday night it gets posted and be it I'm with family Tuesday night and 01:10:30
Wednesday I'm at work all day and I'm like frantically trying to prepare for council and I and I come prepared I make sure of it 01:10:37
but it's it would be nice to shoot for that Monday and then to avoid putting last minute consent items on whenever possible yeah 01:10:45
and I would say this too well maybe we can do for policy internally is. 01:10:52
Say if something was put on, I mean, the goal is always that Eric is reaching out and saying, hey, we added these things, but we 01:11:00
could say, hey, these things were added if you need to pull them off, you know, yeah. So, so back to, to, to Jake's point on some 01:11:07
of that, then would you like it to say that it's, it must have a type of a deadline with it that we're putting it on last minute? 01:11:14
Or just have a reasoning yet, or even feel like we know how to do that right now. I think we'd have to go back and try to figure 01:11:22
out the timing of the dates and figure out how to start even moving things back for review. 01:11:28
Yeah. But if there is anything, we can always pull it off and discuss it and we can always come up with better policy to discuss 01:11:35
it, you know? 01:11:39
Yeah. And and like you had mentioned earlier, we, we did bring back the work sessions so that the items, but, but this way the 01:11:44
items these are, these are the initial introduction to the items or the work session. So a lot of times when they come back as a 01:11:50
business item or as a consent item, you've already had at least one discussion on it. Because I know with the some of the code 01:11:55
changes you had a couple different discussions and some individual discussions with the some of the stuff that you guys had worked 01:12:01
on. 01:12:07
For some code changes so I mean if you don't feel like it's ready, then we put it back on as another work session as well so and 01:12:13
that's just you guys giving direction to staff and letting us know that we're. 01:12:19
Yeah, We have so many opportunities as a council to pull it off, continue it, discuss it further. So I feel like it's manageable 01:12:26
inside of them. 01:12:30
OK. 01:12:35
Thank you, Pam. I just I just I just want to say that if it's not a hard and fast rule and it's just like, oh, we tried. I mean, 01:12:37
I'm thinking back of the angry. 01:12:42
Months of the fall and it's like, if it's just, oh, we're going to try, but then everyone has the power to just add it on and say 01:12:47
OOP, it's a last minute thing. There's not a hard and fast policy and I think that. 01:12:54
I just don't want I don't feel like we have to have a culture of, oh, it has to be done. There's there's no way in waiting 7 or 14 01:13:01
days to just get it right. And I think it's not me and you read the I. 01:13:08
Or the Council reading the. 01:13:15
Approve or consent items. 01:13:19
It's the citizens reading and understanding. I mean, we might have a conversation about. 01:13:21
You know, anything that's controversial, but if it's not understood clearly in the consent item and there's not a dollar amount, 01:13:29
citizens will never know and it'll look bad. And that's why I just want to make sure that that's something else that maybe we, we 01:13:36
talk about a little bit. Is, is when is a staff report required expected? 01:13:42
Maybe is a better way to say it because we've we just kind of started using staff reports probably in 20. It's been a while 01:13:49
obviously, but they weren't using them when I first started. Rarely did we have a full staff report. I know Nathan Crane would do 01:13:55
one because he came from. 01:14:01
You know a different area. And so, and I feel like the policy is good to talk about where, where we decided. But I think the other 01:14:08
thing is if somebody sees something on consent, they do have the 24 hours. So if they see it and they have a question about it, 01:14:15
they can tell their representative and the representative can pull it off. So, so I I feel and this is. 01:14:22
Pam's opinion is that we have a staff report for everything except for our the minutes those are. 01:14:29
Self-explanatory I think. 01:14:37
So but I just want kind of wanted your feedback on that as to. 01:14:39
I mean, I would like to see a staff report. It gives Tony and I more information about what is this agenda item. And if now you're 01:14:44
wanting us to include that it's got a fiscal impact in that title. We need to make sure that that's included. Because if, if the 01:14:50
person putting the agenda item on doesn't put that on, then we we need to do a little deeper dive and make sure we include it for 01:14:56
you guys, for everybody in general, for, for publishing and noticing the agenda. My recommendation would be that you take this 01:15:02
back to staff. 01:15:08
Meeting and that you guys kind of go through this and review it and say how can we feed these things into it as we start building 01:15:14
the new agenda? No, I like it. Yep. I want to give some feedback because you're saying staff report, do the staff members write an 01:15:20
e-mail weekly or biweekly to Eric right now? 01:15:25
Umm, I'm not sure exactly what he's doing. I know he's trying to send you guys out of is it a weekly Tony? 01:15:32
Tony, I'll have a little more insight on that. So Eric should be we are going to start playing together. Weekly reports from the 01:15:39
department heads to air. 01:15:43
There are there are reports from the department heads to Eric and then a summarization of the past weeks work that Eric has been 01:15:48
doing to the council. 01:15:53
Right. I would just give some feedback in that that is such a high level report that it doesn't give anything. And if if council 01:16:00
members or the mayor is getting one, wouldn't we give the opportunity to get that report as well? 01:16:05
I think we're talking about two different types of reports, right? I think the report that Eric's compiling to send you guys is 01:16:12
just an overall overview of what each department's doing. The staff reports that I'm talking about actually go with the item 01:16:17
that's on the agenda. 01:16:23
So I'm talking about clarifying the item like if the mayor is getting a staff report from the department heads to then Eric, I 01:16:29
think it's going to all of the council. I'm not getting any of them. 01:16:36
So I only get Eric's synopsis of like that's what she said. They send it to Eric, Eric does a synopsis of it and then sends it. 01:16:43
Can I be copied on all staff reports? I'm going to clarify it and then I'm going to end the certified item and move on. But here's 01:16:51
what she's saying. Staff reports, the recommendations are attached to your agenda. Everybody gets them in the agenda. 01:16:58
Additionally, there's a report that goes out from Eric. That's the synopsis that you're copied in on. So you receive all reports. 01:17:05
The same as the whole council, we all receive reports simultaneously. Thank you, we appreciate you. Right. And for point of 01:17:13
clarification, is there any, could we vote to get this direct report instead of the brief synopsis from the department heads? 01:17:19
Because we can get those right? We can't make any vote tonight, but you do get the direct report in your packet. That's what 01:17:24
they're discussing. If you were wanting a different report, we'd have to. 01:17:30
Weekly report that they submit to Eric instead of getting the aggregate. 01:17:39
I would like the council on this particular issue to by statute have that included. So if we don't want the high version of Eric 01:17:44
that we get the very lengthy from the department head. So Jamie, I'll give you you can go ahead and talk in a minute. We would I 01:17:52
think we would have to ask Eric how he wanted to designate that time and if he wanted them to write reports, we would have to have 01:17:59
that discussion at a different time. No, we're not. We're not we're not talking about Eric's writing the. 01:18:06
Well, I understand apartment heads that are already writing it just to copy us on it so that if we read Eric's report. 01:18:14
And we say, hey, well, let's get into the details of it. We can also know because you're getting that, right, No. 01:18:23
I am not getting that. What I'm saying is we get the same reports in the packet. 01:18:29
And in his synopsis, all of us get the same reports and that is all. But if you do want to have a future conversation about it 01:18:35
where we ask for additional reports, we could have that, but we can't tonight. So we're not going to do that tonight. Please, 01:18:39
Jamie, next agenda item. 01:18:44
OK, this is a bit of A tag team presentation with Jenna Hearn. 01:18:50
The communications director, So what we wanted to do is give you kind of a brief orientation as to the law as it relates to social 01:18:55
media comments and social media posts made by the city, and then Jenna will get into some of the details of the policy. 01:19:04
So there, by way of background, there are a number of different social media platforms. Each of them have their own. 01:19:14
Different rules for. 01:19:22
How you post, how you comment, how you moderate comments, whether you have to. On some platforms, you have to block people 01:19:25
outright. There's no option for. 01:19:30
Removing or moderating posts. Others do allow a little bit more detail on how you moderate and work through things, so there is a 01:19:35
little bit of a difficulty applying the law to some of the specific platforms, but I'll walk through. 01:19:42
In a nutshell, how that works, there are two primary concerns when we look at social media. The 1st is any of the city, any use by 01:19:50
the city of social media or by city officials of social media when they're when you are acting in your official capacity. 01:19:59
Are public, so comments are visible. Comments are accessible by search engines, and they're classified as public records under 01:20:09
state law if there were a request for that information. 01:20:14
The First Amendment also comes to bear Commenters on social media posts have First Amendment rights. 01:20:20
Which means the city can restrict certain types of comments, but you can only do them according to legitimate time, place, and 01:20:27
manner restrictions. So things like offensive comments they may remain if they are legally protected speech. 01:20:36
These are the categories of things that are allowed by law to be removed. So if you have a discriminatory comment, a comment about 01:20:45
somebody'd race, somebody'd marital status, somebody'd sexual orientation, their religion. 01:20:52
You can remove those types of comments. 01:21:00
Slander or defamation if you have a threatening, harassing or profane comment. A sexual comment. 01:21:03
And then as you go down through the list, there are a number of other things for which you can moderate. 01:21:09
Or remove a comment. Essentially hear what you're trying to do is keep people from harm. 01:21:16
Or keep. But what you cannot do is remove a comment based on its content. What if you're if you have a position on something that 01:21:23
is A and somebody comments and says I like B, you can't remove those comments that say they prefer the other. 01:21:31
We. 01:21:41
I'll skip that one because we'll get into it a little bit, but that's that's the basic framework for comments by way of 01:21:43
background. 01:21:46
The city used to allow comments on its social media posts. 01:21:50
And then with. 01:21:55
More and more social media use and more and more controversial issues, there begin to be posts that were, I thought, within the 01:21:58
category of being threatening, harassing or profane. 01:22:04
And the city did not have in place a policy for dealing with those types of comments. And so your options were a little bit more 01:22:11
binary. It was either you allow comments or you disallow comments. But if you don't have a policy. 01:22:17
You can't remove them without. 01:22:24
Inviting a First Amendment lawsuit, and we've seen in just this last Supreme Court calendar 2 cases that related to Section 1983 01:22:27
claims against cities and public entities. 01:22:33
For social media use. So what we have now done is taken some time to go through and prepare a policy and Jenna and her office have 01:22:40
done quite a bit of work to put that together. The policy will allow for removal of comments based on these criteria that are up 01:22:47
on the board. And then the other thing the policy allows that I think is really healthy and important is that if a comment is 01:22:55
removed, hidden, muted, depending on what the platform is, there would be. 01:23:02
Appeal process where the person who had their comment removed could come to the city and say I think you interpret it incorrectly 01:23:10
and it should remain. 01:23:14
And then the communications director can remove that or can review that appeal and then make a decision on it. 01:23:20
So I'm going to step aside and yield to Jenna to talk a little bit about how she'll her office will go about implementing this and 01:23:28
then I'll be available as a resource if you have questions. 01:23:33
Yeah. Thanks, Jamie. So like we said in the past comments used to be allowed and without that policy in place, it is hard to 01:23:39
handle those situations that come about that are violations of. 01:23:46
Those non protected areas. So in going forward with this policy with our new digital media specialist, we have that staff power to 01:23:54
dedicate more time to addressing these comments. And we think it's a great option, like social media is a great option for 01:24:01
residents to be able to interact with staff, interact with the city, get questions answered. 01:24:07
Be able to voice concerns, give feedback. Of course we want it to be a healthy interaction and like we can't control all the 01:24:15
negativity out there and we recognize that. 01:24:21
There was there going to be angry posts, There's going to be some negativity that we see as such based on looking at other cities, 01:24:28
other state departments, they don't. 01:24:34
Respond to every single comment. So that's not something that we would plan to do just as a city like we don't have the resources 01:24:43
to. 01:24:46
Go in depth every single time anybody brings up anything. I mean, of course we're going to do our best to respond to valid 01:24:51
concerns and questions and feedback, but yeah, we don't have the staff power to really. 01:24:57
Respond to every single question. And we want to keep comments open so that people can interact with each other as well. And as 01:25:04
part of our policy, we're making it clear that this comment section is not meant to be a replacement for emergency reporting or 01:25:11
report a concern or safety concerns. So we'll make it clear that there's appropriate channels to go through to report those 01:25:17
concerns or get help for that and that the social media is meant to be an interactive. 01:25:24
Place where people can, you know, interact with each other, interact with the city and get answers to their questions. 01:25:32
Right now, based on our estimates, about 20% of residents follow the social media channels, so. 01:25:39
We think it's going to be a really helpful thing that they can find answers to questions straight from the city and be able to 01:25:45
interact with each other as well. 01:25:49
We'll be creating templates for certain common questions, like if people try to report concerns via comments, templates that we 01:25:54
can respond to make that process a lot easier and less time intensive on staff and that we get that kind of a cohesive. 01:26:03
Response going so that people get the same the same level of. 01:26:13
Response when they have those questions. 01:26:18
I I just want to add in the reason why Jenna is saying this is there's a lot of frustration as we've been working on this policy 01:26:21
about. 01:26:26
What it means to report a concern or to. 01:26:31
Their comments not being answered. 01:26:35
And there's a lot of feedback that the Council and others give about how these questions aren't addressed and the issue is that 01:26:37
there is not enough. 01:26:42
Umm, resources or people to actually follow and look through comments and find out? 01:26:48
How to respond to those questions, That's why going through the podium channel or the report of concern, you can see that instant 01:26:58
feedback. And sometimes that's really upsetting to residents when they're like, you haven't responded for three weeks and that's 01:27:04
not the point. The place to make that dialogue, and that's a big reason why people want this open, is so that they can report 01:27:10
their concern or put something inside of there or ask for help. 01:27:16
Inside several threads of questions, and it can be very complex because what Jenna is stating really clearly is that's not. 01:27:23
We're not an emergency service like this isn't report a concern. This is meant to be community engagement and helping people get 01:28:01
answers to questions about the events that we're talking about or the programs that are going on. But that real concerns do need 01:28:06
to be channeled through the appropriate resources. So. 01:28:11
Well, and I guess when we talk about that there. 01:28:18
This was a plan from when this was put in. The policy to make it an information site was to give everybody at the opportunity to 01:28:21
obtain this information and to do the things that Jamie was articulating, and then this plan was being built. But as you think 01:28:28
about why you would open it back up, if you're just considering this to be a place where people gather information, if you're 01:28:35
thinking this is a place where people go and they get the answers to all of these other things, it will be a confusing. 01:28:42
Platform because there's not the resources or ability to do any of those things on this well and I could see a concern 01:28:50
specifically. 01:28:54
Just from the history of the current Council, sometimes I think. 01:28:59
When this does get opened up or however we push forward. 01:29:03
Sometimes the council will have opinions on how it needs to be answered and they think there needs to be a clear policy that this 01:29:08
is in the purview of our social media director. And if there's something of great concern then it could be brought to the 01:29:14
director. But I think we would want to make sure that as a council we understand we can't micromanage that. 01:29:20
There's there's a really important legal issue. 01:29:27
Related to what Councilwoman Cifuentes just mentioned, and I didn't put it on my presentation, but you do need to be. 01:29:30
Thinking about it. 01:29:37
Anytime that you have a quorum of the council gathered, it is a quote meeting. 01:29:39
And it has to be properly noticed and there's an interpretation of the Open and Public Meetings Act that. 01:29:45
If you all are on the same thread commenting that it would be a quote meeting and so my strong advice on city social media posts 01:29:52
would be that members of the council limit. 01:29:59
Their interaction on those if you do decide to open comments up and. 01:30:07
I should also note, and I didn't say this at the beginning of the presentation, we have a draft policy. Nothing is set in stone 01:30:12
yet. What we wanted to do is take it to you and broad strokes today to get your feedback on it and then we'll refine it, circulate 01:30:19
it. You can review it and and then consider it fully. But you're not obligated to turn comments on on social media. You can choose 01:30:27
to continue to use social media as just a way to push information out. 01:30:34
But not a forum. 01:30:42
Public forum in the sense the 1st Amendment uses that word. 01:30:44
If once you open it up, it does become a public forum, it's a limited public forum. You can put time, place, and manner 01:30:49
restrictions on it, but not many. I mean it really. It really essentially is this list. 01:30:55
And so there will be situations where each of you may want to weigh in on comments or talk on the same thread to those comments 01:31:02
and you're going to be restricted a little bit just because of the Open and Public Meetings Act. 01:31:09
So I have a question, if that's the case and there's something we want to respond to, can we just reach out and say direct message 01:31:17
me and not have a conversation on the same thread? Yeah, you can certainly do that. You can reach out to your constituents, you 01:31:22
know, through that platform, you can reach out to them. 01:31:28
By e-mail, text, whatever is convenient. It just can't be. 01:31:35
Conversation including three or more of you on the same thread. And there can be. 01:31:39
A little bit of tension among councils in that context, because if Sarah reads it first and comments. 01:31:46
And then Marty reads it second in comments. Then the rest of you are left out of the conversation. 01:31:53
OK. Any questions? If not, send your thoughts to these two and we can start having a further discussion on it. 01:32:02
Does that mean all comments would be turned on Instagram, Facebook and every account that we have? Well, there Twitter, there's a 01:32:12
you can make a few different choices here. You could elect to continue to keep comments off. 01:32:18
You could turn them on for certain posts and not others. 01:32:25
So the city may wish to put something out that would say we have an event this Thursday night, you know, please come. 01:32:30
And you may not want comments on that thing and you may have another one that would be. 01:32:36
We're doing a planning study on this area and we would like your feedback where you then would invite feedback and you could use 01:32:41
the social media tool as a way to gather that. 01:32:46
Not all platforms let you turn some comments on some comments off, and so it gets a little tricky because it becomes binary. 01:32:52
Within how those systems work and so. 01:33:01
You could also have a discussion, and Jenna will know this better than I do, about how the different platforms work and whether 01:33:05
you wanted to have it open. Comments across the board, comments on, you know, limited items, but not every item. But the moment 01:33:11
you open comments on an item, you have to leave them open on that item and you can only. 01:33:18
Call or restrict those comments that fall into those really strict categories that I had up on the screen. 01:33:26
Great. Thank you. 01:33:36
All right, Jamie, you're up again. 01:33:38
For the Finance Committee. 01:33:40
I'm going to slide into this seat because. 01:33:44
This is really Councilmember holdaways item. 01:33:47
But I'll give a little bit of background on it. 01:33:50
There have been questions during the budget discussions of. 01:33:54
What are the right ways for council members and for residents to engage in? 01:33:59
Financial decisions of the city. 01:34:05
And so a piece of advice that I have given. 01:34:07
Council member Holdaway and other members of the City Council is that some cities form. 01:34:12
Finance Committee. 01:34:17
And the Finance Committee typically is formed by a few council members and then. 01:34:19
Those members of staff that have. 01:34:26
Areas of responsibility related to finance, it could be budget responsibilities, it could be treasurer responsibilities, it could 01:34:30
be audit responsibilities, but anything in kind of that grouping in that category. 01:34:36
Could attend those meetings. 01:34:43
They because it's not a quorum of the council, they wouldn't meet publicly. But what it would do is provide a structure where in a 01:34:45
few different council members could dive a little bit deeper into that topic and then anytime you had. 01:34:52
A discussion as a council on a financial topic, you could look to those council members as more expert than they would be if they 01:35:00
just had brought responsibilities across the council and so. 01:35:06
Council Member Holdaway asked to have this be placed on the agenda for discussion. The Mayor acquiesced and put it on the agenda 01:35:13
today as an option. 01:35:18
I have done a little bit of work just to review how a few different cities use finance committees. 01:35:23
It's just based on the experience of the lawyers in my firm in the different cities that we represent. 01:35:30
They're the only city we could find in the state that had a formally established Finance Committee that had code sections and the 01:35:35
like was Salt Lake City. That's in a really different government structure, and they actually had a Finance Committee for their 01:35:41
RDA, their council and their. 01:35:46
City administration. 01:35:53
And it was really different than I think what you'd be, what you'd be talking about, but. 01:35:55
Essentially, by my experience, most cities have to function with a few different council members and then staff as needed. They 01:36:01
don't name anybody other than the council members to the committee and the the committee members under Vineyard code would be 01:36:08
appointed by the mayor and then work in that capacity as their their council assignments. 01:36:15
Well, I'll add just for context, typically what we've done is I usually appoint someone to finance or I hold the seat myself and 01:36:23
then invite rotating council members to have discussions with our executive staff and our finance team. And then all council goes 01:36:31
through the budgeting process and has their individual meetings through that section. So because we had a lot of. 01:36:39
Questions in detail. This year we had a lot of group discussion and then individual discussions and then. 01:36:48
We held a lot of open discussions for people that wanted to bring in people they were working with, but. 01:36:55
Following that line, we can definitely move forward and even assign one or two people as we go forward. And the way that we've 01:37:01
processed it in the past is quarterly meetings. 01:37:07
That's typical. And then just any insights or any meetings that they have questions and then we would still remain the Council 01:37:13
through that same budget process. 01:37:17
Jake, did you have anything to add or anything that you wanted to clarify? I just can't believe how, like I'm just really 01:37:29
disappointed in the spirit of it. 01:37:33
Umm, you know, we have a very long history and I wish Eric were here. 01:37:39
To defend himself, but we've gone back and forth in emails. 01:37:44
You know, as I called the state auditor today, I called a lot of different cities. 01:37:48
And I have had to help him understand. 01:37:55
My city manager wants to deny meetings and I now have been corrected that he can deny meetings under his authority. 01:37:58
It's just disappointing. 01:38:09
You can have two different sides of stories. 01:38:13
Of I think this happened. 01:38:17
And there's a long history there. I even called, you know, previous late Commission members of How do I Deal better with Eric? 01:38:21
And the first thing that the first thing that came up was. 01:38:30
He does have a right, but the council has the ability to put in different policies or ordinances that maybe we might not be able 01:38:37
to force him, but we have the ability to do open working sessions. 01:38:43
Knowing the history and I don't want to belabor the point of all the instances. 01:38:51
But there are many and I think everyone knows for the vast majority where whether it be the Ledger. 01:38:57
Or or different issues. 01:39:04
There's a different story and having a witness and. 01:39:08
An advisor and I would quite frankly say that the vast majority of things, and I understand that I'm more of the whistleblower 01:39:14
role or the one that picks it thinks not to be negative, but to try to improve. I try to come with an eye of, hey, what is this? 01:39:21
Whether it be, you know, concert tickets or different things that come to light that are ugly. 01:39:29
Umm, you know they, I know they are accusatory of staff or things, but. 01:39:37
To go in all by yourself. 01:39:43
Is not good government are you not being accommodated with this discussion being provided an Ave. to start set up a committee that 01:39:46
you could be on and do these things. Yeah. So reading through the e-mail the mayor would pick her own committee. She would pick 01:39:52
the people. It would be the finance director, it would be Eric and it would in his words and I'm reading it straightforward. I 01:39:58
would not advise or recommend that that a city that a citizen be on that. So that's not what we're talking about we're talking 01:40:04
about the ability. 01:40:10
For me to have somebody there as a witness so that false accusations don't come up. 01:40:16
And I don't want to go through because we've gone through close happen countless times, right? We're I don't want to go through 01:40:21
closed door meetings of things that have happened in our city where there are questions of what did or did not happen. And as a 01:40:26
council member with. 01:40:31
False accusations that have come up before in the past where investigations have had to happen, closed door meetings have had to 01:40:37
happen and people's integrity have been questioned. I would be foolish to put myself in a one-on-one situation without an advisor 01:40:45
or somebody there. No, I'm saying there's two different stories. No, he's not here. 01:40:53
Actually, we have talked about it in open and we have shown that there have been multiple witnesses in the room. 01:41:02
And that they have disagreed with you and you have, you have been told that Eric has met with the people that you were talking 01:41:09
about and then said we can't continue to expend resources on this committee, right. And it wasn't that it wasn't. He had very 01:41:17
specific reasons for it and it followed exactly what he needed to do. He was open about it. He talked about it here. 01:41:26
And to come out and act like he wasn't trying, especially when you just randomly bring up things. 01:41:34
Like the Ledger or that you're a whistleblower. Nobody has been doing any activity that is illegal. Nobody has been trying to cut 01:41:41
you out of meetings. And even now when you brought up the Finance Committee, we're saying this is how we've done it. This would be 01:41:47
a great and appropriate way to do it. And if this isn't and I'm still talking, you can wait. You can wait your turn. This isn't a 01:41:53
word salad. This is stop. Stop and take your turn. 01:41:59
This isn't a word salad. This Is Us disagreeing with you, or me and Amber speaking disagreeing with you. 01:42:05
A word salad. This is not a word salad. You're saying and the Ledger and then you don't talk about the Ledger or what was 01:42:12
discussed or how you asked. I'm still talking and then you can talk. You can talk when I'm done. You, you are not just saying that 01:42:18
there was a disagreement. You are making an accusation. You are stating that you are a whistleblower. You are stating that you're 01:42:24
creating transparency while other people are accusing him of doing something illegal and that there are investigations. You are 01:42:30
alluding to things. 01:42:36
That is inappropriate for this discussion. If you want to tell us that you want an advisor and that you want to expand this beyond 01:42:42
an executive meeting, that would be appropriate. 01:42:46
Go ahead and take your turn. Do you mind do can I openly talk about the issues and problems or do we have to go into a closed door 01:42:52
session? Because I would love to name names right now. 01:42:56
I don't have any context for. 01:43:02
If we need to go into the history of what's gone on, I think I'd like to go into a closed session. 01:43:04
I'd like to add that. 01:43:10
For character someone, no. I would like to be able to openly talk about the instances. 01:43:12
Because they're known. If if you wish to talk about the character, competence or performance of an individual, then yes, a closed 01:43:18
session is the place for that. 01:43:23
If what I. 01:43:28
I'm struggling to follow. 01:43:31
No, someone would be so foolish knowing just a minute. 01:43:33
I I'm struggling to follow the how the conversations going to kind of personalization like it doesn't hang on, it's still not done 01:43:37
there there is. 01:43:43
The question that was put to me is. 01:43:48
What are ways that other cities engage in the finance of the city, the budget process, audit processes, bigger decisions that 01:43:51
might require financial tools or debt to fund? And one of my answers to you was that many cities, most cities have a formal 01:44:01
Finance Committee that has a few council members on it and then those council members. 01:44:11
Get to do a deeper dive and focus their time on that. And councils will have other assignments for other topics. And by dividing 01:44:22
them up and and diving deeper as a council, you then have council members that can develop some expertise so that when you have a 01:44:29
question about the budget or finances or expenditures, you don't always just have to go to your city manager. You also could turn 01:44:36
to the council members that are on the Finance Committee. 01:44:43
So that was the basis of my recommendation was. 01:44:51
If you want as a city to have. 01:44:54
Multiple layers of expertise and multiple eyes on things that a Finance Committee is a good way to accomplish that. 01:44:58
No, we're dealing more with trust issues and the ability to have an open dialogue and understand what did or did not happen in 01:45:07
meetings. 01:45:11
And I don't mind openly talking about it, but I don't want to say, hey, you're not allowed to talk about this. 01:45:17
So I mean, just with the Ledger, right, We went back and forth for two months of is Jaker? Eric asked using the word Ledger. 01:45:23
In these meetings and you go, if it was recorded or someone was there, they would know. And that's good for both sides, right? I 01:45:31
think I'm being very generous where I'm not saying who was right or wasn't, but as a council putting in putting forth a policy to 01:45:38
say Jake is not going, Eric is now and he apparently under his authority now has the ability to deny meetings if there is a 01:45:46
witness or an advisor present. And that is just unacceptable. See, you added that. 01:45:53
Thing at the end that made it seem like that was the reason why he did it. You wanted to have a meeting, you called it on the same 01:46:01
day at 3:00 in order to create actions by a committee that isn't deputized, wasn't brought on by the council. 01:46:09
It was about wanting to hold it the same day. I read through the evening. It wasn't the same day. The budget committee was months. 01:46:19
It was like weeks later. No, you met several times with this specific meeting that he was talking about not holding was scheduled 01:46:25
and planned for, and then you ended up holding it somebody's house at 5:00 at night. 01:46:31
No, no, that was not Eric. Eric denied that meeting. That's what I'm talking about. Because it was a short term schedule, wasn't a 01:46:37
meeting. He's denying all meetings moving forward. Mayor, he does not want to meet. He sent an e-mail out to me and said he will 01:46:43
not meet unless I'm all by myself. That's unacceptable. 01:46:49
That's not true. That's not true. That is, do we want anyone to raise their hands about what he's been going back on for? Listen, 01:46:55
no. I mean, I was copied on some of these emails. And I think if you're going to quote what his intentions are, I think you should 01:47:01
read the whole thing if you're going to, if he's not here to speak for himself and if you're going to summarize, well, I'm glad to 01:47:07
hear it that he will be willing to meet with somebody else in the room because. 01:47:12
It's, I think that you, it's not that he's not, it's not that he's not willing to meet with somebody else in the room. He's saying 01:47:19
that he wants, I don't even want a hyper. I don't want to summarize his e-mail because I felt the way he worded it was very fair 01:47:26
and explained why he was denying it, but he's. 01:47:33
He's denying, he says that. I just don't think it's fair. I don't read the e-mail. Read the e-mail publicly if you want to. Jacob. 01:47:40
I feel bad that we don't want to meet often. I meet with the other council members and mayor at least every other weekly. These 01:47:46
are productive one-on-one meetings in which council members, the city manager and the city mayor can work together to discuss 01:47:52
issues facing the city in a collaborative manner. Having these meetings help council members to be better representatives of those 01:47:58
Vineyard. 01:48:04
Who elect them to that position? It allows you to be informed. Oh sorry, I'm reading the wrong e-mail, sorry. 01:48:11
Let me grab it. 01:48:18
Jake, please review my most recent communication. I did not accept your request to continue group meetings. Rather, I encourage 01:48:25
you to accept the offer to meet regularly with the Mayor and me. I also encourage you to take to take the content of those 01:48:31
one-on-one meetings back to your constituents and advisors. 01:48:37
So yeah, he has. And we stopped reading, though you stopped read the whole thing because he talked about making sure that at the 01:48:44
end of the meeting that you two could discuss what the what the tape was from the meeting. Hold on, let me finish. You guys would 01:48:50
discuss at the end of the meeting. This is what we talked about. This is where we stand. This is what we agree upon. This is what 01:48:55
will be reported to anyone and everyone that wants. 01:49:01
But that was in the e-mail. You've read that e-mail. No, I'll keep reading. It doesn't say that, It says. 01:49:08
Why would I have that e-mail and you wouldn't? 01:49:14
As if well, point of order, we're going to go back to this discussion. We we see that. I'm excited to hear that he's going to 01:49:17
allow somebody in the meeting. No, I'm happy to go. That's not what I said. That's not at all what I said. Yeah, it's. 01:49:24
Point of order, you guys, many of the things actually, Marty, finish what you're saying and then we're going to go back to this 01:49:31
discussion in that e-mail. I'm not sure if it's that exact one, but it's in that thread. He said that he really wants to meet with 01:49:37
you more regularly and he understands your concern of the he said he said thing. But what he said that at the end of the meeting 01:49:43
with you and him and potentially the mayor, you would be able to sit down and say these are the points we talked about. These are 01:49:49
what we. 01:49:55
On like a record of the meeting so that there is no confusion on oh Jake said this or Jake didn't say this because you both would 01:50:01
agree on how hold on Jake meeting would be reported on. So for me what I'm saying is I see intent here. 01:50:08
He doesn't want there to be this conflict with you. He understands your distrust of him and he's trying to find solutions. And I 01:50:16
think it's healthy for a city manager or any employee within any kind of city or corporation to have boundaries on how they're 01:50:23
able to conduct conduct their position and their job. So, So hold on one second. Now the reason no hold on Jake, Jake, hold on 01:50:31
Jake, hold on one second. So Marty's point to you is that there's an. 01:50:38
Opportunity to have a discussion because you shared your point and then she responded and the point of the reason why I let it go 01:50:46
on is because. 01:50:51
This allows us to decide if this is the way we want to hold. 01:50:57
The Finance Committee or if we want to formalize it in policy, we now know how it's been happening. Jamie talked about how other 01:51:02
cities do it and how we could do it. If you would like to offer a suggestion about doing it a different way, please present it to 01:51:07
the council. Council, then you can discuss. That is the conversation we're having. We're not going back to the the other 01:51:13
discussion. That is irrelevant to this. We have to keep business moving forward. 01:51:18
We already understand that you feel there's disagreement. We recognize it. We understand. 01:51:26
You feel that there's a story going on that you're not having representation. So if you want representation, no, it's not that. 01:51:32
Again, like when when we meet and there are key differences and we bring in a few witnesses and immediately they recognize that 01:51:40
what he is saying isn't true. It's awesome to have somebody there. I'm excited to have people come up that were in the meeting. 01:51:47
Jake, we all, we, I can't speak for everybody. 01:51:54
In the meeting, I just listen. 01:52:02
I don't believe this is important to continue to rehash because we under important is to have a witness there. That's what we're 01:52:04
fighting for. No then that fighting, hey, can we have somebody there's fighting nobody but you, nobody else is fighting Jake. 01:52:11
Jake, then I guess your recommendation, I'm hearing it that you guys are open to it because I've been preparing the last two days. 01:52:17
Nobody has said it, but we are understanding that you're asking. 01:52:24
Please stop. You've been asked to stop. You've been asked to stop talking about this because it's irrelevant. 01:52:31
Eric said this and you can go over and say, did that or did that not happen? And it's been time and time again that it's we caught 01:53:07
this, OK, So Council, sometimes he will catch me on me, miss. We all misspeak, OK. So Council, I think what's on the table is that 01:53:14
Eric offered that those meetings could be recorded and Jake is offering that he would like somebody from the outside that he 01:53:21
trusts within those meetings if he's part of the Finance Committee. 01:53:28
Doesn't need to be a Finance Committee. There does not need to be. And I don't know if Jamie didn't understand that. I just talked 01:53:36
about how there were multiple instances where things happened and it was like. 01:53:42
I'm glad you were there and I'm glad my integrity is not being questioned. I'm glad that that did occur and that we we don't put 01:53:48
ourselves into open liability. OK, I'm going to turn comment over to another council person. You often talk about the spirit of 01:53:55
things, right? I think that we're, we're failing to have a good spirit about this because it seems like the issue is, is that 01:54:01
you're going into these meetings with. 01:54:08
A deep distress of the person that's giving you the information. 01:54:15
And so you want someone there to be a witness of when he quote UN quote life. I don't want it to continue. Hold on. I'm not going 01:54:19
to have a back and forth. Marty is going to speak and then I'm going to give other council opportunity to speak so so frankly I. 01:54:26
I respect the position of a city manager and a council member needing to be able to work together. And I have no problem going 01:54:36
into a meeting and working with Eric. And if Eric saying, listen, Jake, when you bring in extra people to these meetings, it's 01:54:43
just becoming like a witch trial of sorts or you're just trying to catch me in lies. Then he is saying that the spirit of these 01:54:50
meetings aren't working. So if it was just like you wanted to bring in. 01:54:57
Council member Holdaway brought forward a committee that he said had been deputized, picked and brought in to discuss and go line 01:55:35
by line through itemization of the budget and that they were making these recommendations and that they were all designated to a 01:55:42
certain area. And we said as a council, this wasn't done by the council. This isn't representative of the people. And so we have 01:55:48
to formalize the committee if we're going to do something like that and the way that we would formalize it. 01:55:55
Perform a job in a duty and we either have to acknowledge it as a council and formalize it or we have to not spend our staff time 01:56:32
on it and spend our staff time on other things that we're putting our resources to. And I think that's what's on the discussion on 01:56:38
the table tonight. So Jamie, it's either, it's either Sarah or. 01:56:45
Amber, I'll take a second just to say this because I don't want the mayor or anyone being blamed for you not being able to meet 01:56:52
with people. I told you when we met one time, I would not talk to you outside of public meetings because you will not work in good 01:56:57
faith with me and you will not work in good faith with Eric. I don't know how the other council people feel, but I just want to 01:57:03
make sure you understand. 01:57:08
This is not some tyrannical mayor or city manager controlling everything. 01:57:15
Sarah, did you have a comment? 01:57:20
Honestly, that's been my experience too. I've invited people mostly because I don't understand government finance, and every time 01:57:22
I've asked them to meet with me, they've answered all my questions. But I feel like the difference is, Jake, is you going to these 01:57:29
meetings to find things to accuse, not to question, not to, not to gain understanding, but but to accuse and to find fault and to 01:57:35
find anywhere you can where you can go. 01:57:42
Say what you're going to say. I have a whole different experience than you do, and I've been working with them for. 01:57:50
For the same amount of time. And so I think it might be what Marty said, your energy going into the room is more about revenge 01:57:56
than about than about learning and about figuring out where things are good, where things are happening correctly in the city. And 01:58:03
even Kim herself, she said I went, she went through with me and Christy line by line. And she said Christy is so conservative. 01:58:09
She's so careful on the budget. 01:58:15
That we were both completely satisfied with what was happening and what we were seeing in the city. But we never hear that 01:58:22
response from you. We never hear that acknowledgement. 01:58:26
About how hard people are working and what a great job they're doing. And that's really frustrating. Well, I, I don't want it to 01:58:31
be a negative thing, but I mean, obviously I think I play a different role in playing the devil's advocate. And it's not to be 01:58:37
personal or anything like that, but I will tell you the integrity of those that were. 01:58:44
In our group, they did not come with a got you. No one said it was them. We're saying it's you. I didn't talk in both meetings. 01:58:52
OK, I didn't talk, Jake. I think what would be helpful because this is a work session. No, but, but I just want to be clear 01:59:05
because if that's what you're hearing, that's what scares me, is the second meeting that was the most contentious. I was told not 01:59:12
to talk and I got a candy bar at the end for not talking. And so when I leave, I go, why is Marty Sifuentes and Sarah hearing that 01:59:18
I'm contentious? This bothers me about the spin. 01:59:25
You're this way in every meeting. You're you're. But this isn't a bad time. 01:59:32
You act this way every time as points of order though for you to to get to the heart of what you really need here, Jake. 01:59:37
It seems like you're not talking about a Finance Committee. You're talking about no, and I got hold on, wait, hold on, hold on. It 01:59:44
seems like you're talking about meeting with people. I I think you need to recognize that if you're wanting to meet with your 01:59:50
Finance Committee that you put together, we have to have a different discussion and that you have to understand that resources and 01:59:56
time of the city have to be designated in a certain fashion. If you would like to formalize and work on a policy to put committee 02:00:02
to Finance Committee together. 02:00:08
That's a different discussion. I think we can recognize that you now understand the resources and ability that Eric has. I think 02:00:14
the rest of the council feels comfortable with that. I think as far as the Finance Committee goes, we're open to a discussion of 02:00:21
policy. I'm feeling the council's open to that. We already have something like that, but we can formalize it because it's a work 02:00:27
session. I'm going to let you guys submit more of your ideas. 02:00:33
For an agenda item for business for either policy and then I'm going to. 02:00:40
Let this go back to a discussion about resources and legal outside of this discussion because I think it's been understood here. 02:00:46
So I'm going to closeout of this item and we're going to move into public comments. Is there anybody in the audience that would 02:00:51
like to speak to this? 02:00:57
Council. 02:01:05
State your name, where you're from and we're going to put 2 minutes on. Can you raise your hand if you want to speak so I know how 02:01:07
much time I have? 02:01:11
Have kept to be here online. I've got some things to say. Can you raise your hand if you want to speak tonight so I can know how 02:01:15
much time we have? 02:01:19
OK, I've got two people, all right. 02:01:25
Three people. 02:01:27
OK, go ahead. 02:01:29
Karen Cornelius, Vineyard resident. 02:01:30
I take offense to a lot of what has just taken place. I have been in these meetings and I have heard Jake maligned by Eric. Now I 02:01:34
recognize that there's a history that Jake and Eric have. 02:01:42
That Marty and Eric don't have, Sarah and Eric don't have. 02:01:51
Amber and Eric don't have. 02:01:57
I think you're aware of it, Julie, but I hear him being accused of. 02:01:59
Misinform. Spreading misinformation. 02:02:07
When the reality was when I checked it further the following day. 02:02:10
The information that Eric gave us was totally inaccurate. Totally inaccurate about. 02:02:16
And RDA payment. 02:02:22
Jake didn't even mention it except after it was brought up by someone else. 02:02:24
And that was Sean Herring, and Sean kind of knows our DA. 02:02:31
But nobody accused him in that meeting of speaking falsely. 02:02:36
But in a conversation I had the following day with another Councilwoman, she shared with me. 02:02:42
A completely different scenario. 02:02:49
And she said that is what has taken place. So I really take offense with him going in and being the bad guy. I think we have to 02:02:52
understand if he goes in without anyone else, it's not going to be the same as Marty going in or is Sarah going in Because there's 02:02:59
a history there. And I don't think either one of them trust each other. And that is a sad scenario. And I think that Jake needs 02:03:06
people with him. 02:03:13
And if anybody wants to know what the situation is, I'm Speaking of is the Forge and it is the RDA. 02:03:21
Having been having reimbursed the forged developers, that is exactly what Marty told me the following day. I didn't ask you about 02:03:28
it. The forge. We were talking about the forge. 02:03:35
At the open house. 02:03:42
We were talking at the at the. 02:03:44
See, I needed a witness. 02:03:46
I needed we're not going to have it back and forth, but thank you for your comment. Is there anything else to this? OK, go ahead. 02:03:49
We had also in a meeting with Eric as we were discussing some of the ways that we might fortify the budget, the city budget we 02:03:54
recognize. 02:04:00
That the tax increase is taking place and we are excited that we're going to have the safety. 02:04:06
The safety avenues here in this city, but we brought up that we would like to see. 02:04:14
The $3,000,000 that has been set aside for a City Hall that is not currently needed, we would like to see that money go to the 02:04:22
fire station. That money then that we have set aside for the fire station could be a surplus in our budget that could help us. 02:04:31
And this was a discussion we had and he gave some story about RDA money has to go for in ground infrastructure, for roads, for 02:04:41
lighting. And the the question came up, how is how is the fire station any different than the City Hall? They're both vertical. 02:04:52
He said he would have to get back to us and that he would bring it up. I don't think any of you have heard that, but so I think he 02:05:03
is running his agenda too and I think that it's very wrong. I'm sorry he's not here because I would be saying the same things, but 02:05:10
it's very wrong to put the blame on one. 02:05:17
And I think that it would be in the best interest of everyone on this Council if they allowed him to have a scribe and another 02:05:24
person with him at each of these meetings. 02:05:28
Because we are at an impasse there. And I think that I think we need to respect that. And I think that it's very Amber. I'm so 02:05:33
tired of you shaking your hand. I'm sorry. But I think that it's really important that we don't malign his character. And none of 02:05:41
you understand because you don't have the history. 02:05:48
With Eric. 02:05:57
That Jake and Eric have, and I think that's very unfair that we're trying, and I'm not trying to be, I'm not trying to be a 02:05:59
troublemaker. I am not trying to do anything like that. I'm a mother of five and a grandmother of 18, and I know sometimes when 02:06:06
you're not in the room, you're not going to get the whole story. 02:06:12
When they're coming out telling on one another. 02:06:20
I think that that is human nature and I think we're in an interesting position here because of the history that this small little 02:06:23
town has and we need to respect one another. And that's one of the ways that I think we can show respect is by allowing him, Jake 02:06:30
and Eric to have meetings where there is someone else in. 02:06:37
Present at the time. 02:06:44
And one more thing, I was really taken aback tonight when it was not on the agenda, but our lobbyists were brought up to speak. 02:06:47
However, they weren't called lobbyists, they were called legislative. 02:06:53
They're just saying legislative consultants. Nowhere on the budget do I see legislative consultants. So let's call them what they 02:07:01
are. They are our lobbyists and that's the way they show up in our budget. Thanks. 02:07:07
It's the same. 02:07:18
Anything. 02:07:23
Russell Evans, our resident of the Villas. We're happy to live there, feel blessed to live there. 02:07:29
This is a first I don't think my wife S talking tonight and she doesn't have learned gitis or anything like that. But this hasn't 02:07:34
been very fun and hope some good comes out of it. I really do I know sometimes there needs to be some storming and so on. I. 02:07:42
But we do need to move forward again, said last time. We're all on the same team. 02:07:51
But I'm not going to talk about something different too that I well, also I think it's wrong too that we have to wait 195 minutes 02:07:58
before the public comments. 02:08:02
I'm not sure why the closed session had to be whole held when it did, Why it's not held at the end like it has been before. 02:08:07
Maybe there's a reason for it? 02:08:12
But waiting over three hours for it to be able to make public, public comments isn't right. 02:08:15
Least isn't isn't good, I'll say that. 02:08:22
But my wife and I attended the Planning Commission last week and they talked about the grocery store. 02:08:25
And a couple things troubled me. One is that we found out that the owners owners of the grocery store is flag borough. 02:08:31
We were told Bella's. 02:08:39
And. 02:08:41
Lee's is managing it. 02:08:42
And to me, that just, I don't know, just doesn't sit right with me. That would seem like we should we thought, but I'm not sure 02:08:45
anything people on the council even knew that that Flagborough is the owner of the grocery store. 02:08:51
And that that bothers me because they just. 02:08:59
Just seemed like they've got their hand and everything and they're controlling everything over there. 02:09:06
And my wife and I wrote a letter a long time ago that well, last year, that to the council and the mayor that said this looks like 02:09:10
Flagborough is controlling everything and and we're subservient to them. But that troubled me. Another thing troubled me about the 02:09:16
grocery stores, the design they want the when the trucks come to deliver. 02:09:23
They have to block a public road to back in. 02:09:29
And poor design. And, you know, people said, well, they'll be coming in the wee hours of the morning. You can't assume that they 02:09:33
come all times of the day. And and then they say, well, it's not a very busy road or whatever, but that that bothers me too, that 02:09:40
they have to just put every little square inch in there for their benefit to make their dollar. 02:09:47
Instead of making it a better place for the for the people of Vineyard and I just wanted to express those comments and. 02:09:54
Thank you very much. 02:10:01
Thanks. 02:10:03
All right, I'm Justin Hammer. I live in the solstice neighborhood. I sent an e-mail to everybody. I just want to put a face to the 02:10:06
words bit of a tonal shift, I think, but I just want to I noticed in the the papers that I got that public comments are supposed 02:10:13
to be for non agenda items. So just a couple other things for my e-mail that I I sent to you about some public safety stuff. I've 02:10:19
talked to the mayor a couple times over the last couple years about. 02:10:26
Off leash dogs, let's just continue continual thing that I see when I'm out running. 02:10:33
It's always, there's all, it's probably a weekly occurrence where I have a dog that comes after me. Thankfully nothing bad has 02:10:38
happened so far. And then in addition to that, just another point for my e-mail that I wanted to reiterate about just car safety 02:10:44
in general. I think that there's, there are a number of streets where I especially recognize that need extra attention when I'm 02:10:50
out. Anytime somebody's turning on the Main Street feels like they're not looking both ways left and right for pedestrians. And I 02:10:55
know that. 02:11:01
One of our paths goes right along there as well, so I think both sides of the road. But yeah, we've already talked about the golf 02:11:08
carts and everything and obviously, you know, that was in my e-mail too, but yeah, so. 02:11:14
I, I think if there's anything I can do to continue to facilitate the conversation, I'm happy to do that. I will continue to be 02:11:21
recording my runs as well. I don't know if I need to keep sending updates or whatever, but yeah, open to a conversation. So 02:11:27
thanks. Thank you. 02:11:32
All right. 02:11:39
We'll go ahead and move on to our consent agenda. 02:11:41
Do you need a motion? 02:11:46
I move to approve the consent items as presented. Thank you. First by Marty. Can I get a second? 02:11:53
Second. Second by Sarah. All in favor, aye. 02:12:01
All right, we'll move on to our business items public hearing for zoning text amendment Sections 151250 and 1532 to 20. 02:12:05
We'll go into the public hearing and then we will have this discussion. Morgan, will you be talking about this? 02:12:14
Yes. OK. Can I get a motion to go into a public hearing? 02:12:23
So moved. Thank you, Marty. Can I get a second? 02:12:27
2nd Thank you, Sarah. All in favor, aye. All right, go ahead, Morgan. OK, great. I'm going to pull up a map really quick to show 02:12:31
you the. 02:12:35
Part of the city that would be affected by this change. 02:12:40
OK, Thank you, Mayor and members of the council wanted to show you really quickly that this change affects the FOI district. This 02:13:17
is from Enigma 3. They're a studio on the north side of the city located off 1600 N They provide studious space. 02:13:28
For filming and they are requesting a text amendment to the FY district to allow for. 02:13:39
Events and specifically Event centers. 02:13:48
To operate as conditional use permit, the Planning Commission did review this change. They recommended approval to the. 02:13:53
To the City Council with the amendment that a definition for resents center be added. 02:14:02
Umm, this right here shows. 02:14:10
The table, so this is just the kind of a cross section of the table Event Center is being added conditional use being put into the 02:14:15
FOI. There are other districts throughout the city where we could probably have event centers as well. We are doing a a larger 02:14:21
kind of bulk amendment to our zoning code, but that so potentially we could fit that into like the retail districts. There's 02:14:28
there's some other areas that we think it would be really beneficial. 02:14:34
Overall, we found that the proposal. 02:14:41
Would be a very positive one who would bring people from outside the city into the city. So from an economic development 02:14:44
standpoint, that would be really helpful. 02:14:48
Additionally, the conditional use permit process would allow the Planning Commission to impose conditions to mitigate any 02:14:52
potential impacts, you know, to safety to the public or to impacts to surrounding neighbors. Some of those impacts that be kind of 02:14:57
looked at in the FOI district could be. 02:15:02
The mixing of, you know, visitor parking and traffic with that of of trucks and and and deliveries. And so the conditional use 02:15:10
permit process would allow for the Planning Commission. 02:15:15
To control some of the hours of operation, ensure that there's traffic. 02:15:22
Control on site that parking areas are well lit. Typically in the industrial districts there are some parking lots that are a 02:15:27
little bit darker. This would affect the whole FOI. But we do know that they they would propose having an Event Center or more 02:15:34
more regularly scheduled events that would fall under the Event Center use on their property. 02:15:42
And so with that, staff is also recommending approval and stand ready for any questions. 02:15:49
OK, are there any questions from the Council? 02:15:56
Well, actually, I'll put it to the public. Any questions for the public? 02:15:59
Not at this time. 02:16:05
OK, let's go ahead and go out of a public hearing. 02:16:07
I need a motion. Thank you, Amber. Can I get a second, second, second by Marty? All in favor, aye. 02:16:10
OK, Council questions. We we show the map again. I didn't see the map. 02:16:16
While you're doing, if you're ready, never mind. 02:16:25
So the the FOI district is the district that covers a large portion of the northeastern part of the city. 02:16:29
FOI stands for flex office industrial. So that's where we do have a lot of flex office, typically warehouses with like a retail 02:16:36
frontage or an office frontage. So that's kind of the primary building form that you see up there. The applicant is intending to 02:16:43
do more regular events. If you remember I think it was a few months ago the there was a one off approval for an event up there. So 02:16:51
this would allow them to just function as a regular business, it would provide them another revenue source. 02:16:58
And we feel it would be very positive. 02:17:07
OK. Any additional questions? Otherwise I need a motion. 02:17:10
I support it. 02:17:15
Great. It's that I'll have a first by Jake. Can I get a second? 02:17:16
Second, second by Sarah. I'll do roll call. Jake, does this go through the whole property? So anyone in the FOIA area can now do 02:17:20
this? Yeah. So what they would be allowed to do is to apply for conditional use permit, then they would go to the Planning 02:17:27
Commission. And so the Planning Commission could right size it depending on where it goes and the. 02:17:33
I met with them. It makes sense. And we need to be flexible for businesses in that area to stay in business when business models 02:17:40
change and shift. Yeah, this is also a use that would be positive for other businesses. It would provide a place for other 02:17:45
businesses to hold events and they said that's their primary function. I think they then had a large event there. So this would be 02:17:51
good for our business community as well. Great. Any further discussion? 02:17:56
No. OK, Jake. 02:18:02
Aye, Amber. Hi. Aye, Marty. Yay, Sarah. Yes. All right, we'll go into our second public hearing. This is the consolidated fee 02:18:04
Schedule Amendment Resolution 2022 for 2025. Our utility billing clerk, Maria, will come and present. I need a motion to go into a 02:18:11
public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Marty. Can I get a second? 02:18:17
Second, second by Sarah. All in favor, aye. We're now in a public hearing. All right, So I submitted this and I wanted to just 02:18:25
give you guys an update that I did change some today just so we got clarification on the morning that I needed to do so. The ones 02:18:31
that we changed as of today that you might have not seen are going to be the fire hydrant meter meter. 02:18:38
We're going to do a residential daily rental fee that's going to be for people that are renting it out to like fill up their 02:18:46
pools. So instead of charging them the commercial price, we're going to do $10 a day plus the residential fee for water usage and 02:18:51
then. 02:18:56
For fire hydrant meters for the commercial use, we've changed it to now say that they will be paying the base rate for a three 02:19:03
inch meter every month and then after those, that'll be for the initial 5000 gallons. After that they'll go to the tiered rate on 02:19:10
the commercial usage. Will you bring up any other changes for the public if you want me to, Yeah, yes, please. 02:19:17
Oh yeah. Do we have it that we could pull it up? 02:19:25
If not, you can read them if it's in the staff report. Is it OK? Yeah, give me a second. 02:19:30
That one. 02:20:11
I'm assuming there are red lines, so we can probably, yeah, a little red line. So #5 is going to be the first one. 02:20:13
At the bottom so. 02:20:21
Non Vineyard resident business fee. So this is for water rates if we they are outside of the city. So this is going to be kind of 02:20:23
towards Linden Marina since we service them since they are not Vineyard residents or not in Vineyard, we would charge them double 02:20:30
the rate. So that's just adding that in there. Next one is collection. So as of now we do not have a collections policy in place. 02:20:36
That's something that I've been working on for the last year. 02:20:43
And we have kind of finalized it to where we're going. We're going with one. So we were just adding it into the fee schedule. 02:20:51
This will be for any unpaid utility bills, fees or civil penalties that are not paid. They will just go into collections after 30 02:20:57
days past the due date. OK. 02:21:02
And then Eric kind of brought it up. 02:21:09
Yeah. 02:21:13
So collections like. 02:21:14
Outside of the city where height we send it out. 02:21:16
So because how it's worked as of now is we've never, we haven't had a collection agency in years. There's been discussions that 02:21:20
there's been one in the past, but we haven't used one since a lot of people have known. 02:21:26
Look into most what cities do and I've contacted every city in Utah County. 02:22:03
Is they all typically do 30 days, so and they kind of have some lenience. What they do is they'll send out a initial letter that 02:22:08
says, hey, here's your notice, you owe this past due balance. They'll send a warning saying, hey, now you're going to go to 02:22:15
collections. If you don't pay it within this time frame, at that point goes to collections. I believe from what I remember, 02:22:21
there's only two to three cities that go past. 02:22:27
30 days and usually they go to 45 days and that's kind of where they give their cut off. 02:22:34
For the most part, how we've been is very lenient and even then we typically would probably be a lot more lenient after working 02:22:39
with us. This is going to be for people who haven't get in contact with us, have blocked our numbers, anything like that where we 02:22:43
can't reach out to them. 02:22:48
I I think it's kind of an aggressive policy. 02:22:55
I mean, we can focus on this later, I guess. Yeah, we can. We can look at changing in the code if you want to change it to an 02:22:58
additional days as of now, because it's in the code. That's why I put 30 days. I just worry for people that might not check their. 02:23:02
It sounds like the. 02:23:07
What you're doing is great. I just think that that's so this isn't for like people typically who are in the city. So how I usually 02:23:12
do it is I reach out to them multiple times and I usually get a response. This is more for people, like I said, who have moved out 02:23:18
of Vineyard and are no longer residents. So we have they even offer payment plans and then they put on cycles. So we have about 10 02:23:24
accounts that are closed right now for people who have not been here in a couple years and we haven't been able to reach them out 02:23:30
and right now we have. 02:23:36
An account balance of $5000 that we haven't been able to collect on, but those accounts would clearly be past 30 days if they 02:23:43
haven't lived here years. So I'm just saying as a policy, if you want to read it, yeah, we can do that. So we could do that on a 02:23:49
future. Yeah. So I can put that down, but yeah. And then. 02:23:55
I said for sanitation fees, Eric talked about that, but Republics is raising their fees, so we. 02:24:02
Have to also to kind of keep up with that. 02:24:08
Page 8, the next one. 02:24:13
Food truck vendor fees. This is for special events, they just didn't have one in place. This is so that they can now have a fee 02:24:17
for their license. 02:24:21
Personnel. We just changed city staff per person. We decided to just do one rate instead of having separate rates for individual 02:24:27
departments. 02:24:31
#9. 02:24:35
Illegal trash dumping that wasn't in place before, so that we have added a fine of $250 for that. 02:24:38
On that one. 02:24:45
Maria, maybe this is something we could do at another time, but is there something for wetland? 02:24:47
Dumping it, it seems like maybe that's something we need to talk with Jamie on. But if there's people dumping in like sensitive 02:24:53
lands area that we, we may want to bump that up a little bit. That could be pretty bad. We do get that. 02:25:00
So yeah, we can look into that the next time around. 02:25:08
#11. 02:25:14
Water sampling lab cost plus 10% and a $300.00 fee. That's going to be more Naseem. 02:25:22
The rest of it on there is just kind of adding words that make more sense. Public works is also part. 02:25:31
Of that engineering team, so we've added that. 02:25:36
Uh, same deal. 02:25:41
Go down more. 02:25:45
This is all just red line because they've redone the whole page, so the next page will just show all of the new fees. 02:25:48
And then the last one. 02:26:05
Which we've talked about most of them. 02:26:07
The only other ones that I haven't talked on that page are Unauthorized opening of meter box. 02:26:10
And water main flushing, those have been added. 02:26:16
OK. Any is that it? Any questions from the public? 02:26:19
OK, I need to go out of a public hearing. I need a motion. 02:26:25
So moved. Thank you, Marty. Can I get a second? 02:26:32
Second, second by Sarah, All in favor, aye. Thank you. Any questions or comments by the council? 02:26:35
I was just hoping Maria would explain the report concern. I talked to her today about that because I, I know I've seen it on the 02:26:42
city page, but I didn't it didn't really register. Will you, will you come back up and just explain what you told me today? 02:26:50
Because I think it's really beneficial if we're in unison where we on social media, if we can just. 02:26:59
Direct people back to the report of concern instead of trying to solve it and reach out. I've done that a few times trying to 02:27:08
reach out to Cash or Naseem. 02:27:11
Where I can just give them to you and then anyway just tell everybody yeah so a part of my I'm part time in utility billing and 02:27:15
I'm also part time in neighborhood services coordinator. So that also entails code enforcement for the city. What we've kind of 02:27:22
discussed today is kind of our what our plans are going forward. One of the biggest thing that I've noticed is enemy and cash have 02:27:28
kind of talked about this is on social media we've been getting. 02:27:34
A lot of people just saying, hey, the city's not doing anything and they'll post their concerns to Facebook. 02:27:41
And Jenna kind of talked about it earlier where people are kind of venting their issues or what they're what they're seeing in 02:27:47
terms of concerns. 02:27:51
But they're not sending it to me through the report of concern, so half the time I'm not getting it. 02:27:55
And so I've gotten calls saying, hey, I made this post and nobody's gone back to me. And I have to then say, well, that's not the 02:28:02
right channel. 02:28:05
So what we've kind of talked about is if while you guys are on Facebook and you do see these comments where people are saying, 02:28:09
hey, there's Wasps here, hey, there's garbage here that we want to discuss. If you could then just instead of. 02:28:16
Some people have been saying, oh, I wish the city would. 02:28:23
Get back to you. I hope I'll tell the city to reach back to you. What they should. What I would prefer is to say here's the report 02:28:27
of concern link. Please make a report here and then someone will get back to you. And then that would go to me and I could look 02:28:34
into it and work on it. Perfect. Yeah. And can you tell them about your new your new software? Oh, yeah. So we do have new 02:28:40
software that we just got, which is Civic Review. 02:28:46
Umm, that has gotten a lot easier because before what we would do is it was a spreadsheet. 02:28:54
That I would mark everybody's information, address, phone number, and then what I had done and contacted what this new software 02:28:59
does. 02:29:04
Is it will give me the capabilities to notify people what process they're in, so when a concern comes in I can say in progress. 02:29:10
Investigating or resolved and then that will send them an e-mail to let them know where they're at in the process. 02:29:21
So they know when I'm working on it, when I've looked at it and when it's done and during those. 02:29:26
Once it's resolved or in the process, I can write a note and it'll also send it with that notification. So if it says resolved, 02:29:32
it'll say. 02:29:36
Deer so and so this is I've looked into this, this is what I've done. 02:29:40
Please reach out to me if you have any other questions and that'll send it with them. 02:29:44
And then that will also give me a tracking system so I can see. 02:29:48
What areas might be more concerned? 02:29:52
And then like. 02:29:57
What areas, what issues are there? So if there's a lot of weeds? 02:29:59
A lot of like parking issues, occupancy, anything like that. 02:30:04
Perfect. Thank you. Yeah. 02:30:08
All right, I need a motion. 02:30:11
Little of Marty show today I moved to adopt Resolution 2024-25 consolidated fee schedule amendments presented as presented by 02:30:18
staff. All right, I have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 02:30:24
Second, second by Sarah. I'll do this by roll call Jake. 02:30:31
This is 10.3 right? 02:30:35
10.2. 02:30:38
Amber Ay. 02:30:41
Aye, Marty. Yay, Sarah. Yes. 02:30:43
All right, that brings us to 10.3 discussion and action adoption of the fiscal year 2024-2025 Budget Resolution 2024-24. 02:30:46
And. 02:30:57
Chrissy Yes. 02:30:59
You will be. 02:31:00
Discussing. 02:31:02
Thank you, Mayor. 02:31:12
I feel like we've talked. 02:31:14
Very much about the budget in the last couple months. I feel like the council is probably very familiar with it, as are many of 02:31:16
the residents. 02:31:20
I I just wanted to mention some of the changes that had happened since 2 weeks ago. It was tabled and there have been some 02:31:25
housekeeping items that have come up since then. Just some changes in some estimates as well as some other things that we were 02:31:32
trying to cut everywhere we could. I just wanted to make the citizens and council members aware of that. In the communications 02:31:38
budget, we did cut 25,000 related to a consultant. 02:31:45
In the capital projects. 02:31:53
Budget, we took out the modular roundabouts that had been discussed. We have tabled that. 02:31:57
To help with the fund balance as well. 02:32:04
There were some adjustments that were needed related to water use in the parks and the public works maintenance. Those allocations 02:32:08
needed to be adjusted and and moved to different funds and I was able to take care of that. 02:32:14
And roundabout, in the end, we were able to decrease the prior use of fund balance for the general fund with almost $190,000. 02:32:22
Umm, so at this time I just ask that the Council approve the budget for fiscal year 25. Also mentioned that we by law have to have 02:32:31
a budget approved and uploaded to the state website by the end of this month. So this is kind of an important action that we have 02:32:37
that we are coming to. 02:32:43
Perfect. Thank you so much. Council. Can I would anybody like to make comment? Jake, I'm gonna rotate the comments really quick. 02:32:50
Sarah or Amber, do you? 02:33:00
It's come a long way. It's been a lot of work, a lot of input from a lot of different people, and you've managed it very well, so 02:33:02
thank you very much. 02:33:06
Thank you, Sarah. I agree. I appreciate your patience and. 02:33:11
Answering all of the questions that you did and. 02:33:15
The. 02:33:21
The line items that you did, that you broke down for me for miscellaneous and the other things that you did made a big difference 02:33:22
and I appreciate everything that you've done. 02:33:26
Thank you. 02:33:30
Jake, what was the total dollar amount that was cut? 02:33:32
Did you add that up? 02:33:36
The total decrease in priority from the previous from two months because you said the roundabout. 02:33:39
The roundabout was 405,000 coming from the Capital Projects Fund, so you cut that whole thing out. 02:33:44
Yes. And then did you add up all of the cuts from the past two weeks just so that it's on the record of what was the total dollar 02:33:50
amount? What was it? 02:33:54
Which fund where would you like like all of the various, I don't have a total by all of them, but they obviously have to balance. 02:33:59
Was it a total impact? 02:34:04
Like was there a total impact on it of all the cuts? 02:34:09
Yes, we had $190,000 additional in the general fund that we did not have to use prior year fund balance when all was said and 02:34:13
done. 02:34:17
OK. 02:34:21
Thank you, I appreciate any cut we can get. 02:34:23
Marty. 02:34:26
I don't have any questions or comments besides thank you for your hard work. 02:34:28
I know it's been a rough one. 02:34:33
Yeah. Thank you so much. And we appreciate you working with us and kind of figuring out different ways to still make those 02:34:35
priorities a priority for our residents, but finding different ways to offset costs and pay for them in different ways. So we 02:34:40
really appreciate you. You've done a marvelous job. All of our staff has, it's been incredible. All right, with that, I need a 02:34:46
motion. 02:34:51
I move to adopt resolution 2024. 02:35:00
2024-24 The Vineyard City Fiscal Year 2024 Dash 2025 Budget as presented by Hey, I have a first priority, can I get a second? 02:35:04
Second, Second by Sarah. I'll do this by roll call. Sarah, Marty, Yes, Amber and Shake. 02:35:13
10.4 was a public hearing that's being postponed to a later date, so I'm going to go ahead and adjourn this meeting. Thank you for 02:35:25
coming. 02:35:28
Oh, did you have something to report? Yeah, it's my only time I get to talk. 02:35:33
I wanted to go through that. 02:35:37
I, you know, you get 30 minutes to calm down. And I think that's why it's important to meet in person. I don't think a Finance 02:35:42
Committee, if it was selected like I read through and I don't know if, Jamie, you said that of like the parameters like the mayor 02:35:49
would pick it and then we would have consent And it's the city manager on it. And the financial purpose, you know, the whole 02:35:55
purpose was to get people outside to have a double check on it And as long as. 02:36:02
We can have a witness and an advisor depending on the issue, whether it be RDA that's going to be on the council, then you bring 02:36:10
somebody with that or a CPA. 02:36:14
Or, you know, different people, a strong townsperson with Eric where it's like, hey, there's somebody there. I, I really want to 02:36:18
mend whatever relationship and look for a pathway forward with Eric. And I know that is with having someone there when there's a 02:36:25
misunderstanding, you know, you can't just. 02:36:31
Right to sentence after and say these are the two things that happened in a 60 minute meeting, right? 02:36:38
And a lot of accusations are hurting our city instead of like what did or did not happen. So fighting for. I just have a quick 02:36:44
question. Transparency helps. Are you making a report to us with something new? So that's the first thing I wanted to cover. The 02:36:50
second thing is on our social media that today we had a lot of people just explode about the parking agreement that we passed a 02:36:57
couple of weeks ago. 02:37:03
And the social media post detailed a lot of the various things. So then I went in and looked at it and I just feel like we missed 02:37:10
an opportunity by not negotiating that in a. 02:37:15
Open working session where not it wasn't advertised and nobody really knew about it. I wasn't even in the negotiations. It