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Mayor Fullmer began the meeting at09 pm. Councilmember Cameron gave the invocation and led the Pledge of Allegiance.             PRESENTATIONS/RECOGNITIONS/AWARDS/PROCLAMATIONS1.   ResolutionRecognizingDonOversonForHisServiceToVineyardCity& Dedication Of The Vineyard Water Tank (Resolution25-07) A resolution recognizing Don Overson for his dedicated service as Vineyard City's City Engineer and Public Works Director from June14, to July21, and naming the City's water tank as the Don E. Overson Water Tank in his honor. The mayorandCityCouncilwillacttoadoptthisrecognitionanddedicationbyresolution.
Mayor Fullmer remarked on the work done by Don Overson and expressed appreciation for all the work he had done for the city. She provided a brief overview of the resolution that had been put before the council, to dedicate the Vineyard Water Tank.
Councilmember Holdaway expressed gratitude for Mr. Overson’s work.
Mayor Fullmer called for a motion.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO ADOPT RESOLUTION25-07. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. THE ROLL CALL VOTE WAS AS FOLLOWS: MAYOR FULLMER AND COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND, SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
A moment of silence was observed in honor of Mr. Overson.           WORK SESSION1.    DiscussionaboutOpenandPublicMeetingsAct(OPMA),TownHalls,Social Media, Subcommittees and Staff Resources
Mayor Fullmer turned the time over to City Attorney Jayme Blakesley
Mr. Blakesley gave a presentation regarding the open and public meetings act. He offered clarification on certain situations that had occurred recently as well as city and council business as it pertained to social media posts.
Councilmember Clawson asked a clarifying question on communication between individual councilmembers. A discussion ensued.
Mr. Blakesley continued his presentation. He offered clarification on communication via social media as well as town halls and other smaller meetings that may not include deliberation.
Councilmember Holdaway asked for clarification regarding public meetings where two members were already present that he wanted to attend. Mr. Blakesley suggested inviting more collaboration and utilizing reports from other councilmembers to gain insight from events in which he or others may have wanted to attend. A discussion ensued.
Mayor Fullmer commented in furtherance of Mr. Blakesley’s suggested use of collaboration. A discussion ensued regarding the delegation of time at events.
There was a discussion about the definitions of what constituted a public meeting and the use of city staff. It was explained that any member could hold a town hall. Councilmember Holdaway felt it was wrong to have city staff present in a meeting that did not meet the definition of a public meeting. There was also a discussion about councilmembers adding items to the agenda.
Mr. Blakesly referred to recent supreme court cases regarding social media. Councilmember Holdaway asked for clarification on the recent supreme court decisions on social media that had been cited by Mr. Blakesley. Mr. Blakesley cautioned the council on the appearance of their statements and suggested the use of disclaimers before or after messages shared on social media.         PUBLICCOMMENTSMayor Fullmer called for public comments.
Russell Evans, living in The Villas subdivision, commented on the passing of Don Overson. He expressed his appreciation for the work that he had done and for Mayor Fulmer’s recognition earlier in the meeting.           MAYORANDCOUNCILMEMBERS'REPORTS/DISCLOSURES/RECUSALS
Councilmember Cameron gave a report on the previous night’s town hall that covered the city center project.
Councilmember Sifuentes gave a report on the continued work towards the creation of the new school districts. She expressed gratitude for the hard work of those involved in the process.
Councilmember Holdaway asked Councilmember Sifuentes about concerns that he had heard about lack of funding from Vineyard’s RDA for the new school district. A discussion ensued.
Councilmember Holdaway asked for an extension on the code of conduct based on a letter that had been received from the state auditor. Mayor Fullmer asked for clarification on the letter and what had prompted communication from the state, that what she gathered from the letter was that it was regarding an already fulfilled financial records request by Councilmember Holdaway. Councilmember Holdaway explained that it had been in regard to something he had seen in a ledger that had raised questions.          STAFF,COMMISSION, ANDCOMMITTEE REPORTS1.   City Manager Report
City Manager Eric Ellis spoke briefly about his report but indicated that it would be posted later for the council and the public to review.           CONSENT ITEMS1.   Approvalof the February,25, City Council Meeting Minutes2.   PurchaseofPublicWorksVehicle–Streets&Stormwater(Reapproving Resolution25-05 with the new lease agreement)3.   Approvalof the2025 TownHall Dates
Councilmember Holdaway asked to remove item3 for discussion.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER HOLDAWAY MOVED TO APPROVE CONSENT ITEMS1 AND2. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. MAYOR FULLMER AND COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, SIFUENTES, CLAWSON AND HOLDAWAY VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
Councilmember Holdaway asked to discuss the logistics of the town halls and the structure of them, indicating that he did not have an issue with the specific dates themselves.
Councilmember Sifuentes asked for clarification on how members of the council would schedule time to participate in a town hall. A discussion ensued.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO APPROVE CONSENT ITEM3, WITH THE STIPULATION THAT STAFF WILL CREATE DIFFERENT FORMATS THAT ALLOW DIFFERENT TYPES OF COLLABORATION AND DISCUSSION. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED. MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.           APPOINTMENTS/REMOVALS There were no appointments or removals at this meeting.            BUSINESSITEMS1.   PUBLIC HEARING: Parks and Recreation Master Plan (Ordinance25-01) ParksandRecreationDirectorBrianVawdreyisrequestingapprovaloftheproposed Vineyard City Parks and Recreation Master Plan. (Thisitemisbeing continuedtoMarch19th,25PlanningCommission meeting.)   Mayor Fullmer called for a motion to move this item to the next meeting.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOTIONED TO MOVE THE PUBLIC HEARING TO THE NEXT CITY COUNCIL MEETING ON MARCHTH25 at00 PM. SHE ALSO MOTIONED TO MOVE THE PARKS AND RECREATION MASTER PLAN TO THE NEXT MEETING. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. THE ROLL CALL VOTE WENT AS FOLLOWS: MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.    2.   PUBLICHEARING-ConsolidatedFeeScheduleAmendment(Resolution2025-) Utility Billing Clerk Maria Arteaga will present proposed amendments to the ConsolidatedFeeSchedule.TheMayorandCityCouncilwillacttoadopt(ordeny) this request by resolution.   Mayor Fullmer called for a motion to open the public hearing.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO ENTER A PUBLIC HEARING AT35PM. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.   Mayor Fullmer turned the time over to Utility Billing Clerk Maria Arteaga.
Ms. Arteaga presented the proposed amendments to the consolidated fee schedule.
Councilmember Holdaway asked about the proposed change for towing companies from certificate to qualification. Lieutenant Holden Rockwell offered clarification.
Ms. Arteaga continued her presentation.
Mayor Fullmer asked for public comment. Seeing none, she asked for a motion to close public hearing.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOTIONED TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING AT39PM. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Councilmember Sifuentes recognized the hard work done by staff in events and parks and rec. She was excited that staff would be taking over the children’s market.
Mayor Fullmer asked if the request and application went outside where the red curb was normally marked.
Councilmember Clawson asked how the food truck fee was determined, since it was a range. Mr. Ellis explained how the costs would be determined.
Councilmember Holdaway stated that he enjoyed working with Ms. Arteaga and that he agreed with all the proposed changes. There was a brief discussion about digital parking fees.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO APPROVE RESOLUTION25-06, THE CONSOLIDATED FEE SCHEDULE AMENDMENT. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED. THE ROLL CALL VOTE WENT AS FOLLOWS: MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. COUNCILMEMBER HOLDAWAY VOTED NO. THE MOTION CARRIED FOUR (4) TO ONE (1).  3.   DISCUSSIONANDACTION-CodeofConduct(ChangedtoResolution2025-) (ThisitemwascontinuedfromtheJanuary14thandJanuary29th,CityCouncil Special Sessions and the February,25, City Council Meeting.)
Mayor Fullmer asked Councilmember Clawson if he still wanted to report on the proposed code of conduct since he was not a party to the discussion with the auditor. Councilmember Clawson felt the committee had sufficient time to work on changes to the code and he would be comfortable still moving forward with a vote. He stated that he was proud of the results of the work of the subcommittee.
Mr. Blakesley offered clarification on the letter from the auditor’s office. He stated that it was regarding a previous ledger request from Councilmember Holdaway. Mr. Blakesley felt the letter did not mention the proposed code of conduct. Councilmember Holdaway disagreed and offered clarification as to the impetus for the letter from the auditor’s office. He stated that he had received an email from Mr. Ellis on February. Councilmember Holdaway alleged that the email informed him that he would not be getting the general ledger to the degree in which he wanted so that he could share it with a Certified Public Accountant (CPA).
Councilmember Cameron called for point of order, explaining that the comments being made by Councilmember Holdaway did not pertain to the discussion of the code of conduct. Mayor Fullmer recognized her point of order and asked Councilmember Holdaway if what he had sent to the auditor’s office involved anything related to the code of conduct. Councilmember Holdaway explained that there was a section of the proposed code that mentioned the sharing of documents and the ability of the council to enter a closed session if there were questions about what documents were being shared. He stated that he had concerns over the authority being given to the council in that regard.
Councilmember Clawson asked for clarification on the area of the code that Councilmember Holdaway was concerned about. A discussion ensued.
Mayor Fullmer felt the discussion had strayed from the topic at hand and advised the council that they could move forward with voting on the code and if needed it could be amended later.
Councilmember Clawson recommended that the code by approved as a by-law instead of an ordinance. A discussion ensued.   Mayor Fullmer called for a motion.
Motion: COUNCILMEMBER CLAWSON MOVED TO ADOPT RESOLUTION25-08, APPROVING THE PROPOSED CODE OF CONDUCT. COUNCILMEMBER HOLDAWAY SECONDED THE MOTION. THE ROLL CALL VOTE WENT AS FOLLOWS: MAYOR FULLMER, COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, CLAWSON, HOLDAWAY, AND SIFUENTES VOTED YES. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. .     CLOSEDSESSION There was no closed session held.   .     ADJOURNMENT
Mayor Fullmer adjourned the meeting at54 PM.     MINUTES APPROVED ON:  March,25   CERTIFIED CORRECT BY:                          TONY LARA, DEPUTY CITY RECORDER
Right. 00:00:05
How do you we just have the State Council meeting, right? Yeah. 00:00:11
All right, all right. Today is March 12th. The time is 609. 00:00:14
Umm, we're going to go ahead and get started with our venue City Council meeting. 00:00:20
Council Member Cameron will go ahead and give us our invocation and lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. 00:00:25
Our dear Father in heaven, we come before Thee at the beginning of this meeting and ask for Thy Spirit to be with us. 00:00:35
That we will be able to be kind and productive and. 00:00:40
Be able to listen and be aware of the needs of our city. 00:00:45
And do the best of our ability. 00:00:48
Provide. 00:00:51
The services that we need to. 00:00:53
We are grateful for thy guidance and thy inspiration and. 00:00:55
Hope in all we do, and we say these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. 00:00:59
Alright. 00:01:05
And. 00:01:15
One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. 00:01:18
All right. 00:01:48
I wanted to read something that I wrote. 00:01:54
I recently. 00:01:57
One of our former employees and City Engineer and Public Works Director Don Overson. 00:02:00
Passed away. 00:02:06
And I wanted to talk a little bit about him and then talk about a resolution that we put together to honor. 00:02:08
To honor Don. 00:02:15
And I was hoping to get a room. 00:02:17
A motion by the council to approve that recommendation. 00:02:19
But in a city? 00:02:23
Public works. 00:02:25
Helps to build our community where we drive, the water we drink. 00:02:27
And the trees we sit under. 00:02:32
And they do this. 00:02:34
With uh. 00:02:36
Physical labor and. 00:02:37
They also really care about the community. 00:02:41
And on he had been here. 00:02:44
For most of the time that. 00:02:47
Have served in the city. 00:02:49
As one of our full time employees, one of our first full time employees. 00:02:52
And he was a very visionary person and very dedicated, and he had a lot of. 00:02:56
Foresight into the future and really just an unwavering commitment to the city's success. 00:03:00
And for 15 years he carried. 00:03:07
The weight of making sore everybody's water was getting to their house. 00:03:10
And that the roads LED somewhere. 00:03:14
And every family could rely on the team that he initially established to bring that. 00:03:17
Quality of life that we just take for granted. 00:03:27
And when he retired, many people didn't know that it just whips hands rights in the scene because it was seamless. 00:03:30
They are so thoughtful about what they do. 00:03:37
And when Don started. 00:03:41
We were just a very small town. It was mostly just people living on one Rd. 00:03:42
And I remember when I was serving on Planning Commission and it was just a couple of us that were showing up with two people that 00:03:48
worked here sitting in the audience. 00:03:53
And so he really had this. 00:03:59
Opportunity to touch most of. 00:04:01
Is here today and what we're looking at. 00:04:04
And I wanted to talk about how. 00:04:07
You know, we want to talk about the legacy that people leave behind, and there's not really something that I can pinpoint. 00:04:10
For what he left behind. But I do remember that when he was retiring he told me he had his big 5. 00:04:16
That he wanted to accomplish before he left. 00:04:22
And so many of those things we've got to accomplish together, but the one that you really wanted to make sure. 00:04:25
Vineyard did not go without before he left and he couldn't retire until it was done. Was setting up our water tank and making 00:04:31
sure. 00:04:35
That the people of the Northeast had this water tank moving forward and he was really grateful to have it be where it was and and 00:04:39
put that torch. 00:04:45
Pass that torch. 00:04:51
When the time came and. 00:04:52
And he was very dedicated to it and. 00:04:54
So we literally. 00:04:58
A drink in the water. 00:04:59
And crossing the bridges and sitting under trees that Don helped build. 00:05:01
Umm, sorry. 00:05:07
That he is not. 00:05:16
You won't get to totally see the finish of. 00:05:21
How it all plans out that he built it and he's not here with us, but he he was very proud of it and after living in a community 00:05:25
for. 00:05:29
30 some years. 00:05:34
Don left it to come and retire and live in the communities and helped build because he loved this city and he wanted to be here 00:05:36
and he was very involved. And so the very end we were just. 00:05:41
Emailing last week and so such a. 00:05:46
A small moment in time, but that is. 00:05:51
That is. 00:05:53
A legacy that Don left us is a community that we love and that we hopefully will continue to take care of. 00:05:55
With the same dedication and determination that. 00:06:04
That Don Overson felt for this community. 00:06:07
So. 00:06:11
With that. 00:06:12
I want to. 00:06:13
I wrote some sappy thing at the end that I'm going to leave it with that because he was not really a sappy guy. He was just kind 00:06:15
of. 00:06:19
Cut and dry so this makes more sense. 00:06:22
But I'll, I'll read the resolution and then. 00:06:26
I'll call for. 00:06:29
For an acceptance of it from the Council. 00:06:32
Don Overson served as Vineyard City's engineer and public works director from June 2nd, 2014 to July 1st, 2021. 00:06:36
And he actually worked on the city a lot longer than that. But, um. 00:06:44
With a contract work. 00:06:48
During his tenure, he played a critical role in the city's rapid growth in infrastructure development, overseeing key projects 00:06:51
that enhance transportation, utilities and public services. 00:06:55
His expertise and leadership were instrumental in ensuring the city's infrastructure. 00:07:00
Met the needs of its expanding population while maintaining high standards of safety, efficiency and sustainability. 00:07:04
One of his most significant contributions. 00:07:12
Was his work on Vineyard City's water system. 00:07:15
Under his guidance, the city developed a reliable and resilient water infrastructure. 00:07:18
Including the design and implementation of a water tank and booster station. And I'm just going to pause because if you knew. 00:07:23
The discussions that brought us to the point, they were really funny. 00:07:29
Where they came from, at one point I remember Don wanting to put a rock climbing wall on the side of the water tank. He he was 00:07:32
very creative. His commitment to securing the city's long term water supply. 00:07:38
Has left a lasting impact on the community. 00:07:44
And recognition of his outstanding service and dedication to the city's progress. Vineyard City wishes to honor Donnie Overson. 00:07:47
By naming the water tank Donnie Overson. 00:07:55
Water tanked. This designation serves as a tribute to his contributions and ensures. 00:07:58
That his legacy remains a part of the city's history. And really because as seamlessly as everything happens, as we turn on the 00:08:04
water and as we drink from those faucets and as we pull our trash to the curb. 00:08:10
Names kind of move on and flow without us recognizing them, and so we want to give his his name a home. 00:08:17
Another home. 00:08:24
Umm, we. 00:08:26
That is kind of the background of this. 00:08:29
And. 00:08:32
You can read the formal resolution and recognition of the dawn. It'll be posted in the hallway. 00:08:35
And then we can. 00:08:42
Go ahead and vote on this. 00:08:45
And what we'll do is, in honor of his family and the work and effort that he has put forward, we will. 00:08:46
The ceremony where we put that plaque up and we'll have people come and honor him and talk about it. 00:08:55
When he passed away, I was able to talk to so many people whose lives he touched and they will probably want to come and say a few 00:09:02
words so. 00:09:06
Anyway, I need a motion to accept the resolution I gave you. Background on the resolution of the resolution is available for your 00:09:12
meeting. 00:09:16
Can I make a comment before we go? 00:09:21
So. 00:09:24
I'm glad you got emotional about Don, because I did too. 00:09:27
I left the villas last night. 00:09:31
I'm leaving from his and I was close by Cory in his house and. 00:09:33
Umm. 00:09:39
I met I met Don and my grandparents home when. 00:09:45
Don was always searching for. 00:09:50
History of the founding documents and those old farmers didn't have a lot of written things down so. 00:09:54
In those days. 00:10:01
John was always at Kimora's house, my grandma's house and. 00:10:03
And uh. 00:10:09
I can't tell you how many times Dawn would. 00:10:11
Be fighting a developer for vineyards. 00:10:16
Right of the contract or? 00:10:21
Making sure we were made whole or fixing some sort of problem. 00:10:23
And. 00:10:28
There were a few fights, I don't want to say to the developer, where I was so impressed with Dawn's. 00:10:32
Care to make things right when mistakes were made? 00:10:39
And. 00:10:46
When I. 00:10:49
He was a good man. 00:10:56
So I want to say. 00:10:57
Thank you. Does anybody else want to say anything? I apologize if I didn't offer that. 00:11:01
All right, with that, can I have a motion to accept this? 00:11:06
Resolutions were recognized on Everson. 00:11:11
And it comes with a fiscal impact of $500. 00:11:14
Umm, so moved. Thank you. We have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 00:11:21
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 00:11:27
All right, I'm going to go ahead and do this by roll call, Jake. 00:11:31
Yes. 00:11:34
Brett aye. 00:11:35
Hi, Marty. Aye, Sarah. 00:11:36
All right. Thank you so much. And you know what? 00:11:39
We usually stand to welcome people to the community and we stand to send them off when they leave us. And I think it would be 00:11:43
really great if we could just stand for a few seconds, a moment of silence for the passing of dawn. 00:11:49
Thank you. 00:12:14
All right, this brings us fighting through our work session. 00:12:17
We're going to be discussing our open public meetings at town halls, social media subcommittees and staff resources. 00:12:21
And I am not. Jamie, are you leaning out on this or is Eric? 00:12:28
I can lay down but it I think it's intended to be more of a discussion and I'm here as a resource so. 00:12:34
I have some orienting slides and then. 00:12:41
We can jump into whatever you all would like to talk about. 00:12:44
We do annual training on. 00:12:48
Open a Public Meetings act. This is not that training, so it's not. 00:12:49
Intended to be comprehensive, but. 00:12:54
I've had a number of council members asking this week questions about the Open Public Meetings Act and I think there's enough 00:12:56
dialogue circulated in the community about. 00:13:01
How to interpret the act as it relates to some of your behavior? 00:13:06
And to the training that I provided in the past and I wanted to. 00:13:10
Talk through what the ACT does and doesn't say. 00:13:14
Where? 00:13:17
Where there is room for interpretation. 00:13:19
What my advice would be to you on. 00:13:21
Those areas where there is room for interpretation and then to answer any questions that I may have. 00:13:24
Really. You? 00:13:29
For me, as we go through it, so. 00:13:31
To Orient our conversation. 00:13:33
There have been. 00:13:36
Two things put to me repeatedly over the last week or so. The first is as it relates to public gatherings. 00:13:37
Outside of your normal. 00:13:45
City Council meetings. 00:13:47
These are constituent meetings, town hall meetings, planning meetings. 00:13:49
Committee meetings. 00:13:53
And the questions have been about. 00:13:54
What the Open and Public Meetings Act says relative to participation by Council members in those meetings. 00:13:57
When they must. 00:14:03
Be open meetings under the ACT. 00:14:05
Meaning they have to be noticed and. 00:14:08
Held in a more formal way. And then the other thing I've been asked about is. 00:14:10
Council member participation in social media, either in posts in threads and groups. 00:14:15
And social media conversations about topics relative to. 00:14:21
City business and council business. 00:14:25
So I'm going to go through the next few slides. I want to give you the excerpts from the Open and Public Meetings Act, and I think 00:14:28
you'll see as we go through the excerpts that. 00:14:32
While ideally a statute would be detailed enough to give us answers on every particular scenario. 00:14:37
This statute is not. 00:14:43
And so you have to read. 00:14:45
The purpose of the statute and then make your best effort in interpreting. 00:14:47
What they mean and I want before I go through the excerpts to at least. 00:14:53
Help you understand the process I went through when I considered the questions. 00:14:58
My job as the city attorney is to advise you all. 00:15:03
And to help you make. 00:15:06
Good decisions and to help you behave in a way. 00:15:09
That can keep you out of legal trouble. 00:15:12
My job is not to make those decisions for you. 00:15:15
And. 00:15:19
I always try to respect the role of the Council in making choices and in making decisions, so I'll try as I present this to. 00:15:20
Respect that role in that. 00:15:26
I'll show you what I think the statute says. 00:15:29
Where there's bright line rules, I'll tell you what they are. Where there's not bright line rules and there's room for 00:15:32
interpretation, I'll tell you. 00:15:35
What is the safe side of that Gray line? 00:15:39
And then within that Gray area. 00:15:41
You know you may choose to. 00:15:44
Behave as you feel appropriate given. 00:15:47
Kind of the risks and the circumstances in your constituent needs. 00:15:51
So I went through the statute, I went through the case law, and then I went through the legislative history. 00:15:55
For the different sections of the statute, and I'll talk through a little bit of those legislative changes because they do matter. 00:16:00
Here in the case law and what it says. 00:16:06
And then? 00:16:09
A lot of the questions that were put to me in a way of. 00:16:10
Well, is your interpretation of the statute consistent with that of other city attorneys in the state? 00:16:14
I didn't know the answer to that and SO. 00:16:20
There is a monthly meeting. 00:16:22
Of city attorneys through the Municipal Attorneys Association in the state, and that happened to be yesterday. 00:16:24
And so I participated in that meeting and they do a general Q&A of. 00:16:30
Does anybody have issues? And then we can talk through them as a group and see if our interpretations are consistent. 00:16:34
And so I put these questions to the group. 00:16:40
To see where they land on it and I'll talk at the end a little bit of. 00:16:43
The feedback that I got from. 00:16:48
Other city attorneys and. 00:16:50
I'm not going to name. 00:16:51
Names of the attorneys and the cities because it's an informal setting, but. 00:16:53
I consulted with those who spoke up on this were the. 00:16:58
City attorneys for Mill Creek, for Harriman, for Saint George. 00:17:02
And then for a number or for Sandy City. 00:17:07
And then for a number of smaller cities and towns within the state. 00:17:11
So let's walk through. 00:17:15
The statute itself. 00:17:17
Grandma has a public policy or not Grandma. They're open to public meetings. Act. 00:17:20
And the policy of the Open and Public Meetings Act is that city councils take their actions openly. 00:17:24
And conduct their deliberations openly, and actions and deliberations you'll see come up frequently throughout the statute. 00:17:30
The courts, when they have. 00:17:38
Handled Open and Public Meetings Act cases have said. 00:17:41
That because this is the statutory intent. 00:17:45
They therefore read that into interpreting the statute, and to the extent there are exceptions within the statute, the courts 00:17:49
construe those exceptions strictly. 00:17:54
Which is. 00:18:00
The highest standard they can give to. 00:18:01
Statutory construction. 00:18:04
There is a definition of the act of meeting. 00:18:06
It means a public body, which the City Council is, with a quorum present. 00:18:09
That is convened by somebody who has authority to convene the public body. 00:18:14
Following the process by law. 00:18:19
And then you'll see three things within the purposes, and these will sound familiar. 00:18:21
To receive public comment, to deliberate and to take action. 00:18:26
On matters relevant to. 00:18:30
The work of the City Council. 00:18:32
A meeting must be open to the public. 00:18:36
Unless it's closed and an open meeting. 00:18:40
Rules associated with it, I'm not going to go through those line by line, but you know what they are there. It's the noticing 00:18:43
keeping of minutes. 00:18:47
Allowing for the public to be present, to participate, to know about the issues that will be decided upon. 00:18:52
There is a section in the statute that speaks to electronic messages while a public body is in a public meeting. 00:18:59
And what it says is, nothing in this chapter may be construed to restrict a member of a public body from transmitting an 00:19:08
electronic message to other members of the public body. 00:19:12
At a time when the public body is not convened in a meeting. 00:19:17
Now, what's absent from this? 00:19:22
It doesn't tell us about quorum requirements, so it doesn't make clear whether it's. 00:19:24
Not restricting messages from 1 member of the public body to another member of the public body. 00:19:29
Or whether those messages can be to all members of the public body. 00:19:35
It does very clearly restrict. 00:19:39
Messages while you were in a public meeting. 00:19:42
So while you're in a meeting, if you're to be sending text messages to each other saying. 00:19:45
Hey, how are you going to vote on this or what do you think about that? 00:19:50
That would be clearly inappropriate under the statute, and I could point you to a few different examples that have been in the 00:19:53
news over the last few years. 00:19:57
Just for playing with her. Are you saying the body or just one one by one? 00:20:01
Individually, like 1 council member. This makes it pretty clear that it's a member of the public body to other members of the 00:20:07
public body. 00:20:11
At a time when you're convened at a meeting, so this would be. 00:20:16
It's it's bright line rule prohibited for any of you. 00:20:20
To send an electronic message to any other of you. 00:20:25
While you're in a public meeting. 00:20:29
I think there are. I didn't know that so. 00:20:32
It's anyway, so that's that part of the rule. 00:20:34
There also is. 00:20:39
Clearly stated in the law that a quorum may not act together outside of a meeting. 00:20:41
In a concerted or deliberate way to predetermine an action to be taken by the public body at a meeting on a relevant matter. 00:20:46
So you all cannot. 00:20:54
Communicate together as a quorum. 00:20:56
To decide something before you come into the public meeting. 00:20:59
And then have your public vote in your public discussion. Be perfunctory. 00:21:03
Because you have already decided that matter. 00:21:08
So those yes please. 00:21:11
So. 00:21:14
To me that that is a bright line. 00:21:16
Prohibition that we can't talk as a body, correct, But that does not prohibit. 00:21:19
Me talking individually with Sarah and then we individually talking with Marty and with the mayor and with Jake. 00:21:25
I read that the same way you do. 00:21:32
Yes. 00:21:35
What the votes going to be ahead of time? 00:21:36
Yeah, you can. I can directly ask. 00:21:39
Hey, here's an issue that we're going to talk about. 00:21:42
Sarah, how are you gonna vote on that? 00:21:45
There's nobody else. It's not a quorum. 00:21:47
I'm trying, I'm trying to get that I read it that way too, that, you know, one off or two up. 00:21:49
I would say one-on-one conversations. 00:21:56
Would be OK. 00:21:59
With A5 member council, the moment you're having a conversation with two other people then you do have a quorum. 00:22:01
As part of that conversation. So it's not a quorum, it's not all of you. It would be 3 of you. 00:22:07
But yes, the one off conversations of. 00:22:12
You know, if you were to phone Sarah or message Sarah and say how do you understand this issue and. 00:22:16
How do you intend to vote or? 00:22:21
What are you thinking here? 00:22:23
I believe the ACT allows for. 00:22:26
That kind of communication. 00:22:28
This is where. 00:22:31
There are a few bright lines in the ordinance or in the statute. There are. 00:22:32
Some areas where there's room for interpretation. So let's talk through that's that's kind of the framework of what's in the 00:22:37
statute. 00:22:40
I'd like to talk through what. 00:22:45
I discussed with the other city attorneys. 00:22:47
And where there's room for some advice and some consultation. 00:22:50
On how you. 00:22:56
Behave. 00:22:57
When I spoke with the city attorneys about social media. 00:22:59
Conversations the the context was. 00:23:03
What if there are social media conversations on social media? 00:23:07
Either discussion on a post. 00:23:10
Likes on a post. 00:23:13
A thread, a private or a public forum or group. 00:23:16
How do you advise members of your council to behave via the Open and Public Meetings Act? 00:23:20
I have always. 00:23:26
Instructed councils in my training where there's not a bright line rule. 00:23:28
The safe side of the Gray line is. 00:23:33
Don't engage in those conversations on social media if. 00:23:37
A quorum of the council is present. 00:23:42
Now, how do you determine whether a quorum of the council is present? It's different on every platform. It's really hard to tell. 00:23:45
If you're all viewing it as a violation, I would say probably not. 00:23:51
If you're all communicating on a thread together, is it a violation? I would say probably so. 00:23:55
And. 00:24:02
Within those two boundaries, I think you do have. 00:24:04
Gray area where there's some room for interpretation and it. 00:24:08
It's difficult to tell whether it would be a violation of the ACT or not. 00:24:11
Historically. 00:24:15
The Open and Public Meetings Act did have a definition of electronic communication. 00:24:17
It's gone through since 2011 a number of different legislative changes. 00:24:22
Relative to electronic meetings. 00:24:28
Some of that has been the statute trying to keep pace with changes in technology. 00:24:30
Some of it has, and a lot of it has been. 00:24:36
Trying to keep up with How do Zoom meetings or Teams meetings or electronic meetings work for city councils? 00:24:40
And there was a time during COVID when a lot of electronic meetings were required. 00:24:48
And the law became quite flexible on when and how you could hold those meetings. 00:24:54
And its sense has swung back the other way. And it allows electronic meanings, but only. 00:24:59
It allows you all to participate in the meetings electronically, but you have to host them. 00:25:04
And anchor location where the public can attend and view and be part of the meeting. 00:25:10
In person it doesn't allow for 100% remote meetings like it used to. 00:25:14
But one of the things that happened when the statute introduced these electronic meetings. 00:25:19
Is that where it previously had a definition for electronic communication? 00:25:25
That was a little bit more detailed and included things like social media posts, not just text and e-mail. 00:25:30
It has removed that definition and that doesn't exist anymore. 00:25:36
And so when I was visiting with the other lawyers on it, there was a pretty near unanimous view that the safe space on the Open 00:25:41
and Public Meetings Act would be. 00:25:46
Not to engage in social media. 00:25:51
Discussion. 00:25:54
And again, I'm going to go back to the slide of. 00:25:56
Deliberations is the phrase that you see throughout. 00:26:00
And you have to apply some judgment as to when does discussion become deliberation. 00:26:03
And I think it can fairly easily become that. 00:26:10
And that's why I and so many other city attorneys advise their councils that the safest way to behave is don't engage. 00:26:14
If a quorum of the Council is going to be present. 00:26:21
On something. 00:26:24
The but everybody pretty much acknowledges that. 00:26:26
There's room for interpretation, and I think we've talked through the wrinkles in the law. 00:26:31
That get at that. 00:26:36
So the other question that I've been asked is. 00:26:37
How does the opening Public Meetings Act relate to gatherings? 00:26:41
Things like constituent meetings, town halls, planning meetings. 00:26:45
Or committee meetings of the Council. 00:26:49
Where you by definition don't have a quorum present. 00:26:51
But certain members of the public may wish to participate in those kinds of meetings, but they're not a meeting where you're. 00:26:56
Deliberating on something. It's more a meeting where well. 00:27:02
They may be a little bit. 00:27:06
So. 00:27:08
I want to borrow a recent example. 00:27:09
On the code of conduct, the mayor. 00:27:12
The Council established a committee to do that work and they assigned that committee. 00:27:14
To be to have the council members of the committee. 00:27:20
Be Councilmember Clausen and Councilmember Holdaway. 00:27:25
And both of you then had. 00:27:28
Discussions with. 00:27:31
People in the community, with myself, with staff. 00:27:33
Maybe with other members of the Council. 00:27:37
But never were those discussions a quorum of the council. 00:27:39
And also never were those discussions. 00:27:43
A publicly noticed meeting that had all of the formality and the strictures and the expense. 00:27:47
That come with public meetings. 00:27:52
They're allowed under the law. 00:27:54
But the expectation, I think, that the Open and Public Meetings Act places on that kind of allowance is. 00:27:57
That you. 00:28:04
Do not have authority to take action. 00:28:05
On behalf of the Council, so you serve the function of going out. 00:28:08
Doing some of that liaison gathering input. 00:28:13
But the final decision and the discussion on the final decision is brought back to the full council. 00:28:16
And you? 00:28:21
Have that discussion and you make that decision. 00:28:23
In an open meeting. 00:28:26
That's properly noticed and has everything else. 00:28:28
You have similar things that happen. 00:28:30
When you have town hall meetings or if you're planning a project. 00:28:33
And they're not always the same. 00:28:38
Because sometimes a project effects one neighborhood more than another. 00:28:40
And so you may have, you may want to hold those meetings in the neighborhood that's affected. 00:28:44
You're not a City Council that has council districts. 00:28:48
You know, but often. 00:28:51
In cities that do have council districts, they'll try to when they're planning a big project or doing a general plan update. 00:28:53
They'll make an effort to hold public meetings in each of the different council districts. 00:29:00
And the expectation when they do that is that. 00:29:06
The council members will respect. 00:29:09
The ability of. 00:29:12
Each of them. 00:29:15
Although separately to hold these meetings or participate in these meetings. 00:29:17
And it can sometimes be difficult if all members of the Council want to be at these meetings. 00:29:23
And also taking into account that every time you hold an open, public, formal City Council meeting, you have a really big expense 00:29:30
and formality associated with it that can make it. 00:29:35
Much more difficult for you to do your work. 00:29:40
I think it's a lot more efficient and helpful if you have committees or have some of these meetings where you can. 00:29:43
Gather information, discuss things, work on things. Edit, revise. 00:29:49
And then bring it back to the Council. 00:29:53
To decide. 00:29:56
So this is. 00:29:57
Not something that the ACT tells you exactly how you have to do it. 00:29:59
Or what you have to do it, but most councils find a way to respect each other's. 00:30:04
Roles and when you have. 00:30:08
Need to hold. 00:30:10
Town halls are planning meetings in different locations then. 00:30:12
There's informal discussion among the Council or direction by the council. 00:30:16
You know directly that we're going to have X number of meetings and. 00:30:21
You'll go to this one and you'll go to that one and I'll go to the third. 00:30:24
And then everybody. 00:30:28
Just acts respectfully towards each other's role. 00:30:30
To allow those who've been assigned or who have organized the meetings to be present. 00:30:34
And then when it comes their turn. 00:30:39
You know to be there. 00:30:41
Then you get an additional wrinkle of. 00:30:42
Councils aren't always unanimous. 00:30:45
And that's a function of. 00:30:47
A democratic government and it will happen and fine. 00:30:50
You'll take your decisions. You'll have. 00:30:54
Majority who vote for something and a minority that doesn't. 00:30:57
When you're unanimous, it's easy, because then you're all marching to the same thing. But what about when? 00:31:02
You're going to the council. 00:31:07
As a majority, but not unanimously. 00:31:10
Votes to do something. Who then has the right to? 00:31:13
Attend, say, a town hall or a planning meeting. 00:31:17
That's on that topic. 00:31:21
And that's where it gets a little bit tricky and I think you have to fall back on. 00:31:23
What are the what are the authorities within the different members of the City Council so. 00:31:28
On A5 member council, the mayor is a voting member of the council, but also is the. 00:31:33
Chief executive of the city by statute. 00:31:39
And all of the employees of the city. 00:31:42
Report through that line of authority. 00:31:45
And so the mayor does have different. 00:31:48
Rights than the rest of you as it relates to directing staff work and maybe. 00:31:50
Organizing the kinds of executive function. 00:31:56
Meetings that would occur on topics, even if those topics have to return to the Council at some point for action. 00:32:00
And the city manager working. 00:32:06
For you all and reporting to the mayor. 00:32:09
Plays a similar role in trying to figure out. 00:32:12
How to allocate staff resources? What meetings require staff resources? And there's some judgment to be applied there. 00:32:15
And it may not always appear fair to. 00:32:22
Minority voting. 00:32:27
Member of the Council if the majority voted to take an action and the meetings are being held in furtherance of that action. 00:32:28
And then you all play a role because if you choose to intervene as a body. 00:32:37
And vote to give specific instructions on a project about how the outreach should happen or what resources should be applied to 00:32:44
it. 00:32:48
You certainly have that. 00:32:53
Authority as members of the City Council. 00:32:55
But you don't have that authority individually. You have that authority as. 00:32:58
Individual members of the Council. 00:33:02
Now, how does it relate to the Open and Public Meetings Act? It only relates to that that. 00:33:04
If you're holding these kinds of gatherings that are not formal meetings. 00:33:09
Within the act. 00:33:14
Then you you're not allowed to do them if you have a quorum present, and so you do have to divide a little bit. 00:33:15
And assign some work and handle it in that way otherwise. 00:33:21
They have to become formal meetings and one of the difficulties of doing a formal meeting on. 00:33:25
Events where you're not taking action as a council is. 00:33:32
You want to avoid the expense right of having and I recognize I'm part of that expense right of having. 00:33:35
Staff at your meetings and having your. 00:33:42
City recorder of the meetings and. 00:33:45
Not being able to use this room for other purposes because you have to. 00:33:47
Set it aside to be used for the council meeting and so. 00:33:52
There's a little bit of an art to figure out, you know what's appropriate and how you slice those things. 00:33:55
So that's what I had put together and prepared. 00:34:01
And I think. 00:34:04
That advice, I've proved it by other city attorneys and I think the read that I just presented is pretty consistent with how. 00:34:05
That's trained throughout the state, recognizing, you know. 00:34:12
Pockets of Gray area within the statute where you have to. 00:34:16
Interpret it and. 00:34:19
My job as a city attorney is to tell you where the safe space is. 00:34:21
You know, and where you can behave without inviting. 00:34:25
Any threat of litigation or any threat of having your actions invalidated. 00:34:28
Because you violated the ACT, but. 00:34:33
You know, there's room, there's room to interpret it. 00:34:35
I just want to can I do a point of order on that There's been twice where. 00:34:38
We've done either the parking or even yesterday's City Council meeting. Where? 00:34:43
It's a meeting of the City Council. 00:34:50
Where you know and it's their assignment, where obviously. 00:34:53
Minority vote where I will say, hey, I want to be there. 00:34:59
I understand that I. 00:35:03
Diet cannot force a public meeting. However, from what I'm understanding, what you're saying is is that. 00:35:05
If we're not in agreeance on how it is. 00:35:11
For that meeting to push forward. 00:35:15
The mayor could override and there could be a public vote. 00:35:17
But there would need to be a vote in order for that to happen is what you're saying? 00:35:20
And the mayor controls that. 00:35:25
Tonight, can I ask you to break your question up there? There were a lot of layers to that and I want to be sure I. 00:35:27
Yeah. So like sometimes there's a disagreement on. 00:35:33
Who should be able to go to the meeting to be able to like yesterday we had a town hall. 00:35:36
The City Hall, right? 00:35:41
I want to be there. 00:35:43
Represent my constituents. I want to hear from staff. 00:35:44
City's authorized that we put on social media if we're doing it. 00:35:47
There's no vote taking place, it just happens. 00:35:52
And I understand that I could. 00:35:56
Be overruled. 00:35:59
But I'm not even in the vote, so like. 00:36:00
If I object to like, I hear about a meeting. 00:36:03
From a committee. 00:36:07
And it's going to be a public facing meeting with staff. 00:36:08
I should have the ability to say hey. 00:36:12
Hold on here. I would like to be there and at which point? 00:36:15
The mayor could override that and we would just hold a public vote. 00:36:18
And they could push forward with that committee. 00:36:22
But they couldn't block me from being there. 00:36:25
Unless the vote. 00:36:27
Unless the council came and voted and said. 00:36:29
Hey, we're not going to do a public meeting. 00:36:31
We're going to push forward with just the two of you and then therefore they could block me from the public facing meeting. Well, 00:36:33
let me let me try to. 00:36:37
I'm going to try to break that up into parts and then. 00:36:42
You can ask follow up questions if I don't address at all. 00:36:45
I'm going to try in my answer not to make this specific to individual members on the Council and where you might. 00:36:49
What your opinions might be on certain items. 00:36:57
All right, I. 00:37:00
My advice to you would be. 00:37:02
To find a collaborative space where you can allow for council members. 00:37:04
To do work on meetings that might involve the public. 00:37:11
Without feeling like each of you have to insert yourselves in everyone of those meetings. 00:37:16
And I suggest that just as a point of. 00:37:22
Healthy municipal governance. Now, does that mean you're doing things in secret? No, I don't think it does. I think it just means 00:37:28
you're dividing the work up. 00:37:32
That there's only 5 of you. There's a lot of work to be done in the city. 00:37:37
And So what? 00:37:41
Healthy city council's do, in my view is. 00:37:43
They'll assign and delegate that work and then the other members of the Council will respect that delegation, but they also will 00:37:46
expect. 00:37:50
Some accountability in the form of a report back to the Council. 00:37:54
You're going to see that later today. When? 00:37:58
You and Councilmember Clausen give a report on the code of conduct and on the work that you've done on that, because that that is 00:38:00
a piece that you've taken and done. 00:38:04
Independent of other council members. 00:38:09
Now, could you, as a council member, throw a wrench in city business by. 00:38:11
Trying to force yourself into every meeting that involves other council members. 00:38:17
I suppose you could. 00:38:22
Do I like that practice? Would I advise that you do that? 00:38:23
No, I don't. 00:38:28
I don't think long term it helps because it. 00:38:30
It hurts the collaboration among the council and it hurts your ability to do business, but if you were to show up. 00:38:33
And there were already 2 council members there. 00:38:40
Your options are. 00:38:43
To have one council member. 00:38:45
Disengage and leave that meeting. 00:38:47
So that you don't have a quorum present. 00:38:50
Or if everybody refuses to leave. 00:38:52
Then you would not be able to hold the meeting. 00:38:56
Because it wouldn't have been. 00:38:59
Unnoticed public meeting and you would have a quorum of the council there. 00:39:01
So you are going to have to figure out a way among yourselves. 00:39:05
To do the work of the city. 00:39:10
In in those moments in ways where? 00:39:14
It doesn't make sense for the full council to be present to do it. 00:39:17
And respect the fact that you may not attend every function. 00:39:21
Because others are there. 00:39:26
But also figure out. 00:39:28
You know, how do you want to make those assignments? How do you want to make those choices? 00:39:30
You know, it could be that you come back to the council and say. 00:39:34
This is a matter. This is a. 00:39:38
Topic that's really important to me. I want to be there at future meetings for this. 00:39:40
Can the Council allow me to participate? 00:39:44
And then? 00:39:47
I think you'd have to get a vote of the council that would say, you know, yes or no. 00:39:49
Otherwise, it would be up to the organizer of a particular gathering to figure out. 00:39:54
Who makes sense to be there? 00:40:00
What is the purpose of the meeting? 00:40:03
What is it in furtherance of? 00:40:05
And then? 00:40:07
You know, it may be the case that. 00:40:09
Somebody is excluded so that it. 00:40:12
Doesn't then become a public meeting, and that work can happen. 00:40:15
So I. 00:40:19
I didn't tell you what to do because I don't think that's my role, but those are the things I would think about. No, I agree with 00:40:20
your. 00:40:23
Assessment, like we definitely want to learn to work together or in most cases like say, hey, that's a great town hall. 00:40:27
I think, you know, in, in, in consultation that sometimes like, well, we have all the city staff, they're there to go talk. 00:40:35
Can I can my views be expressed or? 00:40:42
Or could instead of an hour long meeting. 00:40:46
You could leave for 1/2 hour and then I could come in for the next half hour. 00:40:50
And so therefore citizens or constituents that it would be negotiated. But I don't, I don't think anyone wants to put a wrench in 00:40:54
being. 00:40:58
Difficult in holding good decorum. 00:41:04
But at the same rate it. 00:41:08
What what I don't want is that. 00:41:10
Just hey the. 00:41:14
I don't have the ability to be in the meeting if it is something that you know, hey, I've got to be there. 00:41:16
Sending a meeting saying hey, you were using city staff and we're doing something public facing. 00:41:23
And the two of us are, you know, I just don't think that's good. So I think that's great because then it's like, hey, let's send a 00:41:29
meeting. 00:41:32
I'm wanting to be a part of this. How can I? And then negotiating like. 00:41:35
Because I've seen this at Utah County, like they there's had some big arguments in Utah County recently. 00:41:41
Where they will go? OK, the two of us are gonna talk and then half are gonna leave. 00:41:45
And then one steps out and they kind of negotiate who and then the public gets. 00:41:49
Like both sides of the jail issue, That's when I thought. 00:41:54
I think that. 00:41:58
That that helps, but it's also asking. 00:41:59
And in many cases, it's just more courtesy. 00:42:03
Of hey, we're going to be using. 00:42:07
Public resources. 00:42:10
You know to do a public facing meeting, do you? 00:42:11
The two of us, Are you fine with that? And what would you want? 00:42:14
Done in that. 00:42:17
And I think so we can do things informal. 00:42:18
Up until the point like there's a disagreement, right? And then what we do just send an e-mail and say, hey. 00:42:22
How can I be a part of this? 00:42:27
Well, yeah, I think you all will have to negotiate. 00:42:29
You know what you want to do and what makes sense given the circumstance. 00:42:32
I the one thing I think is tricky but maybe not healthy as if. 00:42:37
Let's say you decide to put a particular amenity in a park and there's an argument over. 00:42:42
Is it a basketball court, a baseball diamond, or pickleball? 00:42:47
And let's say I'm on the council and. 00:42:51
I really hate. 00:42:55
Pickleball because it's so noisy. 00:42:56
And I really, really love basketball because I'm tall. 00:42:59
And so that's what I want. 00:43:03
I fight and scratch and claw for it and do everything I can but. 00:43:05
You all have constituents that absolutely love pickleball and that's what ends up being funded. 00:43:09
I don't think it's right once you begin doing meetings to plan what those courts look like. You know, what color they are, how 00:43:15
they're oriented, what the distance is from homes. 00:43:20
You know, through the details of those. 00:43:25
For the council to say. 00:43:28
Well, I should also get a counter meeting of. 00:43:30
Why didn't the city fund the basketball court? 00:43:36
I can say that on my own, but I don't think that is a good use of city resources for me to demand that for every pickleball 00:43:39
meeting there be a basketball meeting. 00:43:44
Because the action of the Council was. 00:43:49
Pickleball. 00:43:52
Right, and you will have things as a council where? 00:43:53
You vote against something. 00:43:56
The rest of the Council votes for something. 00:43:58
And then your city manager has to begin holding. 00:44:01
Outward facing events to plan that. 00:44:06
You want to meet with neighbors and make sure that your impacts are going to be reduced against them. You're going to have to 00:44:08
figure out. 00:44:12
Traffic and hours and. 00:44:16
All these different things that will require meetings. 00:44:18
Outside of city government, with constituents, with residents, with contractors. 00:44:22
And if those meetings are in furtherance of something that you didn't vote for? 00:44:28
They may have to happen. 00:44:33
Without your participation. 00:44:35
But when there are actions that need to come to the City Council for. 00:44:38
Action of the body. 00:44:42
That must be done in an open meeting. 00:44:45
And none of those actions can be taken in these. 00:44:47
Smaller group meetings. 00:44:50
But the shape of what all that looks like? 00:44:52
You all are going to have to figure out. 00:44:55
And I think that's fair because like I, I can completely understand like on the town hall thing last night. 00:44:57
Where I really wanted to be there and just. 00:45:03
You know, represent. 00:45:05
My constituents. 00:45:06
You know, we can then negotiate and say, hey, look, I'll be there for half or not. 00:45:08
But at the end of the day, we want to be. 00:45:12
Amicable and have good decorum. 00:45:15
Work together. 00:45:18
And try and find it without having to have some sort of official vote, right? Of like who's there and who's not. 00:45:19
But at the end of the day, if we can't find an agreement. 00:45:26
There's at least has to be a. 00:45:29
Take you or that minority person got outvoted and so therefore. 00:45:31
And then there needs to be a vote of. 00:45:35
We're doing this town hall with just these two people, and I'm OK with that. And I have a comment really quick. 00:45:38
In response to you, I think they're refusing stated that I want to restate for the Council and then I want to carry the 00:45:43
conversation forward because we're spending a lot of time on this so. 00:45:48
Because it feels like you're coming to a place where you're asking a question from the council. 00:45:53
So I want to talk about a few things. 00:45:59
The number one thing was to find collaborate. 00:46:02
A collaborative space. I thought that was a really important thing. 00:46:05
In these regards. 00:46:10
It really there are some meetings. 00:46:12
Where we put people into subcommittees, where you hold opportunities to meet with people. 00:46:15
On things and you share your opinions with them and it's not necessarily going to be anything that I agree with. 00:46:22
Or that any of the Council here agrees with in general, and we'll just say. 00:46:29
Across the board. 00:46:35
But you go and you meet with these people, with the you in general counsel meets with these people to learn more and to come back 00:46:37
and present. And we're going to see that with the code of conduct tonight. You and Brett had a lot of meetings with people that 00:46:42
you guys have selected and you went and talked to them. 00:46:47
I saw some of the commentary as people emailed me and I was able to make some informed decisions based on what they said to me, 00:46:53
but I didn't sit in any of those meetings. 00:46:57
What I did do though? 00:47:02
Was I read through your notes? 00:47:04
I read through the code of conduct that you did present. You will be able to make a report back to me, which was the 00:47:07
accountability aspect. That was the second point that Jamie brought up, which is the report back. 00:47:12
And even though I couldn't be there. 00:47:18
And express my views on everything. 00:47:20
And direct my leadership from my constituents on that, what I will do tonight. 00:47:22
Is I will represent the constituents of the city that I represent, which is all of them. 00:47:29
And I will vote based off of what I think is good for all of the residents and I will push back on the policy that I think is good 00:47:34
or bad that you worked on. And so as you went to those meetings, I didn't try to participate in them. 00:47:40
And I stayed out of those meetings and I waited for your reports back, and when you guys came and told me you needed longer, you 00:47:47
needed to reassess them. 00:47:51
We gave you the space and time to be able to do that. 00:47:56
Now, was there ever a thought in my mind that maybe you were representing things in a way that I would not do? Absolutely. We. 00:47:59
We do not have the same mind. 00:48:08
There is not a person on this Council that would represent me the way that I would represent me. 00:48:10
Or represent my representation of the people of Vineyard the way that I would do it. 00:48:16
But we respect each other and then we come back and we have the deliberations and the discussions here on this table. 00:48:22
Another example is when you guys had a parking meeting, you and Sarah were there. There are several people that want to discuss 00:48:28
parking. I can tell you that both of you had very different perspectives when you were there, but what it did was it made it so 00:48:33
none of the rest of us could attend those meetings. 00:48:37
And then Sarah and Brett had a meeting. Now what I have appreciated going and talking about my views on the town hall. Probably I 00:48:43
would like to go and actually hear what the people are saying, but I trust that. 00:48:48
Sarah and Brett. 00:48:55
I wanted to go and figure this out because they're sitting in a subcommittee for the architecture and the design, and they are 00:48:56
trying to make meaningful conversations happen with our. 00:49:02
Our citizens so that they can be informed and answer questions as we go through this process so that they could take that back and 00:49:07
they're going to report it and our jobs. 00:49:12
Are to provide that collaborative space for us to go and divide work and get things done. 00:49:17
To come back and hold them accountable for the report back and then to make our decisions before the public and the public square. 00:49:23
And that is how we get educated on the goals. 00:49:30
Now, I'm not saying that if there's ever a time where we are all umm. 00:49:33
In any regard, wanting to be at something, can we always say, can we say, hey, I really want to be at that and if somebody is 00:49:39
like, you know, we're just trying to keep this small right now, but let's plan for something else, I think we can respect that. 00:49:45
I think we want to move away from the number one when it says find collaborative space is. 00:49:51
Saying that somebody is blocking us out of a meeting because I can tell you I. 00:49:57
Varying the code of conduct meetings, whether you would have welcomed me or not. 00:50:02
I never thought that I was being blocked from a meeting, rather I was creating space. 00:50:07
For you to accomplish a task. 00:50:12
At hand. 00:50:14
And I think if we're going to create collaborative space between each other, that we need to start from a space. 00:50:15
Of saying these people have a job that they're trying to accomplish and. 00:50:21
It's not about blocking anybody from it, it's about productivity. 00:50:26
And reporting back and following good governance. 00:50:30
Now, with that being said, Council, I think Jake has gotten to the point where he's saying, hey, sometimes he's going to want to 00:50:34
be at a meeting and there's going to be a time where when he does that, he's going to come. And he asked two questions. Can I open 00:50:39
it up to the public or otherwise can the people open it up to the public, which is you and you guys always have the ability to 00:50:44
make a meeting public if you so choose and vote on it. Sometimes that's not efficient because we can't be at all of each other's 00:50:49
meetings. 00:50:54
And so it's not always going to be the case, but. 00:51:00
I don't see why we can't have that conversation, and I think Jamie was really clear that those are our opportunities. 00:51:02
So in the future, this is just a work session to learn more about how the process works. 00:51:08
But I feel like it's been made. 00:51:13
Clear what your opportunities are. 00:51:16
Are there any questions on that from? 00:51:19
To Council. Sarah Marty. 00:51:21
No, I think. 00:51:24
People who haven't spoken yet and then we'll come back and I just. 00:51:25
Validate and take. I like. 00:51:28
I like the idea of. 00:51:31
If it's a meeting that's really important to multiple council members, I have done that before with Amber where we traded halfway 00:51:33
through and so I'm comfortable with that. I'm also. 00:51:39
I do like the idea of collaborating. 00:51:45
And allowing other council members to fulfill roles. 00:51:48
But I get what you're saying and I I'm open and willing to do that where possible. Yeah. I just think it creates an incredible 00:51:52
culture, like. 00:51:55
Because some of you guys will say, oh, it doesn't really bother, Brett and Jake go do it. Other times they'll say, hey. 00:51:59
I do want to step in here. 00:52:05
And if we respect each other, it's like, you know, I'll step out. You step in for 20 minutes is what I want to hear. I want to say 00:52:07
this. 00:52:10
And then I think I think it. 00:52:13
It respects people's. 00:52:15
You know, constituents that might want you there because there were a lot of constituents that left last night and they were like. 00:52:19
You can't. And I'm like, I can't be there. And I was like, I tried to be there. I want to be there. I want to vote to be there, 00:52:23
but and I also don't want to. 00:52:26
Step on your guys toes. It's like hey, but at the same rate it's like could we switch out an hour? And I felt that way just so you 00:52:29
know, I felt that way with meetings that you have been able to go to with Sarah or. 00:52:35
There's been like invitations where maybe 2 council members have been invited and I might. 00:52:42
Going in. So it's not like something that's just. 00:52:47
You're not the only one that has those concerns. Well, and the other thing is I think there is a time for it and there is a time 00:52:50
when it doesn't make any sense. 00:52:55
And there's also the 4th item that I didn't mention that Jamie brought up, which is the pickleball versus the basketball, which 00:52:59
helps us to spend our. 00:53:04
City resources efficiently and effectively. So can I just mention something? Yeah, thanks. 00:53:08
So. So last night's meeting was in. 00:53:14
Response to things that were said online. 00:53:18
And so I specifically asked for Brett to join me because he had information I didn't. 00:53:20
But Jake, at anytime you can hold your own town hall and invite. 00:53:24
One of the three of us who you feel like would be beneficial to be there, I can't bring the city staff without. 00:53:29
You can still hold a meeting. I didn't know city staff was coming. 00:53:35
Like, I didn't ask a whole lot of other people to come. 00:53:39
So it just worked out well because they had information that was. 00:53:42
Valuable to the citizens. 00:53:47
So you can, you can. 00:53:49
Request to do your own town hall. You and I did them last year. 00:53:50
Remember. But those weren't public meetings. This wasn't a public meeting. 00:53:54
That was a publicly. 00:53:58
It wasn't a public meeting last night. I think what we're getting at is the definition of a public meeting. 00:54:01
Last night's meeting was not. 00:54:06
Recorded, recorded. It was not, oh, I'm right, but it's not subject, right? But I was, I was told like, if you go, then it has to 00:54:08
be a course you can't go. And I was like, so 'cause then it would have to be a publicly notice made. So now, so now and, and, and 00:54:15
I'm even OK with you guys not agreeing and saying, hey, let me push back. We just want Brett and Sarah to be there. 00:54:21
So and I'm like OK. 00:54:28
I disagree. And having the respect for each other, like, OK, let's just throw a quick vote. And then therefore my constituencies 00:54:30
like, hey, he's trying to be there. 00:54:34
And be there for the other side. OK, But let's talk about the two things you're talking about because they're very different. 00:54:38
They're very different. 00:54:41
One is a publicly facing meeting that we could vote on. 00:54:45
Another. 00:54:50
Is a meeting where. 00:54:51
To counsel or collecting themselves and having town halls like the ones that you and Sarah have that she was just stating. 00:54:53
Those are not meetings that we could vote on. Those are things that you had chosen to do to go talk to constituents and you are 00:55:00
not blocking people out. That is you going and creating forums and if you hear about them and you want to be at them, then they. 00:55:07
Having a collaborative space where you guys try to work together and see if you guys are aligning on things. 00:55:14
Is I think the point that Sarah was making, but saying you can always hold your own town halls if you want to. 00:55:20
And make. 00:55:26
Public facing. 00:55:28
Right, without the definition. 00:55:30
Of a public we noticed meeting the difference is is the ability to have Eric and other staff that were there on city resources 00:55:32
right well and I'm I'm I'm glad that we're talking about that because I'm going to mention. 00:55:38
That in in general. 00:55:44
City resources are used to. 00:55:47
Umm, implement. 00:55:53
The things that City Council has voted on. 00:55:54
And so. 00:55:58
Maybe, Eric, that's the point that you wanted to clarify? 00:56:00
I saw your hand go up out of the corner of my eye. Yeah, I just. 00:56:03
We're talking about a number of different meetings. Jamie's example is really appropriate in this case. 00:56:07
Because it is specifically on an issue that the Council has weighed in on. 00:56:12
And has given direction to staff to utilize staff resources for. 00:56:16
Building. 00:56:22
The plans for the architecture and engineering of the City Hall. 00:56:23
When when meetings are being held that are exploratory meetings. 00:56:28
It is very different. Council members can get assigned to a subcommittee. 00:56:32
And we can participate if that's a council decision. 00:56:37
But again, once the Council has made a decision. 00:56:43
If there if, if Brett has really been opposed to something that everybody else voted for. 00:56:47
And council member Clawson decides that he wants to hold a meeting. 00:56:54
To expand. 00:56:58
His disagreement on that particular topic. 00:57:01
And wants staff participation and the use of staff resources and city resources. 00:57:05
As the city manager, I'm going to I'm going to ask my staff not to participate in that because that would not be appropriate. 00:57:10
As it's. 00:57:16
In opposition to what the Council has weighed in on. 00:57:17
The staff of the city. 00:57:21
Respond to. 00:57:23
The voice of the Council. 00:57:24
Not of individual council members, obviously we interact on. 00:57:27
1000 different issues. 00:57:30
But when it comes to. 00:57:32
Council direction. 00:57:34
We implement what the Council has directed us to implement and we do not implement. 00:57:36
What an individual council member. 00:57:42
Has opposed on. 00:57:44
Right, such as such as the resources that went for you and Brett to meet with our? 00:57:45
Legal and work through. 00:57:51
Wording and things like that, and so you were able to have city resources to discuss and talk about those things. 00:57:55
Another meeting was when you and Sarah. 00:58:02
Held the town hall that we all voted on for you guys to establish and cast. Spent the night with you guys at your town hall. 00:58:05
And the rest of us weren't there, but you had city resources. 00:58:14
To talk about parking. 00:58:18
And I'm not sure, forgive me, staff, who else was there, but I do know that cash was. 00:58:20
There, so you did have a town hall where you met with people where it was just two of you where you were able to have city 00:58:25
resources. And I I think that's important because there are distinctions for city resources. Did you want to add something, Jamie? 00:58:32
Not on this topic. I have one other thing I forgot to mention. Oh yeah, go ahead, that's important. Let me just say and I will try 00:58:41
to be respectful and not requiring a vote for when there is a disagreement of. 00:58:47
Me being there, I just want to reserve like hey, I do even if I disagree. 00:58:54
With the City Hall. 00:58:59
To be in that meeting. 00:59:01
I would interject and say I can't be blocked unless you guys vote to therefore block me. Absolutely. If it's a publicly facing 00:59:03
meeting, we're going to offer you those opportunities if it's. 00:59:08
Can I have a clarification? 00:59:15
Yeah, please. And then I'll answer. 00:59:18
When let's and I'm sorry. 00:59:21
If Jake wants to attend a meeting, that. 00:59:23
We've already decided what the two council members were and it wasn't him. 00:59:27
Would that need to go into an open public meeting or is that something because it's not actual legislation? It could just be. 00:59:32
Eric calls the council and finds out what. 00:59:40
They want for that meeting. Yeah, it would be exactly as you described it, and that's how I would have answered. 00:59:43
Jake's question as well, but if. 00:59:49
If a meeting is scheduled between so. 00:59:51
The the. 00:59:54
City Center is a good example, and that's the meaning, apparently, that occurred yesterday afternoon. 00:59:56
Right the. 01:00:02
Council active and directed staff to begin the planning work on that you know to do architecture engineering. 01:00:04
Financing. 01:00:13
Get everything in order so the Council can make a decision on that. 01:00:14
Meetings will be required. 01:00:18
Through that process, that will not be full council meetings. 01:00:20
And sometimes those meetings will occur between 2 council meetings. 01:00:24
I don't know that I would recommend a process where you call a council meeting anytime. 01:00:30
Three or more council members want to attend. 01:00:35
One of those public facing meetings. 01:00:38
It may be that you have to come back to the next council meeting and say. 01:00:41
I was excluded from this meeting because two others were there. 01:00:45
I didn't like that. I'd like to be at those meetings. 01:00:49
Counsel, can we direct staff to? 01:00:52
Allow for those to occur in public meetings and be noticed as such, and then you as a council can talk about that. 01:00:57
But in the interim, in those those weeks in between, I think it would fall to. 01:01:04
The mayor, or to the city manager, or to the committee that had been delegated by the council. 01:01:09
To make the decision of, you know, who would attend and who would in. In talking with the state auditor this week, he just made it 01:01:15
clear that. 01:01:19
If there's an informal vote, there has to be a record of it, and that record needs to be public of what that decision was made. So 01:01:23
however that. 01:01:29
So if it is on the mayor, I don't think that's a council action that we're talking about. It really it's not. 01:01:34
The mayor's the chief executive of the city, and so where are there are meetings scheduled to carry out executive tasks? 01:01:41
Right, but that. 01:01:50
To make those calls. 01:01:54
Correctly, that meeting wasn't voted on to have, it was just I'm having a public meeting. 01:01:55
And then therefore I'm. 01:02:02
But again, I don't it it was. 01:02:03
It's not a problem. 01:02:07
Well, they. Yeah, but it wasn't. 01:02:10
Well, no, but it was, it was, hey, there's some issues of misinformation. Let's schedule 1. So they they scheduled it and I'm 01:02:13
like, OK, great, I'll, I'll come. 01:02:17
And I was like, well, you can't. 01:02:22
Well, that's the thing. 01:02:23
It's not a public meeting. 01:02:25
We have to be careful with how we're defining this. 01:02:27
And it needs to be very clear on this record. 01:02:31
Public meetings are where all of us can attend them. This was not a meeting that was public. 01:02:34
This was a town hall. 01:02:40
That two people held and if you had attended it would have become public. 01:02:41
Because of your presence and who you are and what your responsibilities and obligations are. 01:02:47
I did not attend it because it was not a public meeting. 01:02:52
Marty did not attend it because it was not a public meeting. 01:02:55
That that is a very important distinction. 01:02:59
Additionally. 01:03:02
If there's an informal vote, absolutely it needs to be counted, I think. 01:03:04
Another important part of that is not everything that happens that spurs a decision. 01:03:09
Takes a vote, which I think Jamie articulated, but in the case of the auditor that you were talking about. 01:03:17
Say a vote to get something on an agenda. It does not happen by a vote, it happens by engagement. 01:03:24
And so engagement wouldn't be counted the same way. 01:03:32
If you engage me. 01:03:36
A state auditor was very clear with us this week, Yes, and I read it and and if you engaged me according to Title 3. 01:03:38
And you are one vote to get something on the agenda. But Title 3 requires two people to engage me to get something on the agenda. 01:03:45
And there are no two people. 01:03:53
Then the record shows one person, right? That record has to be made public, though, so that record is not we. We've never made 01:03:55
public the denials on. There's no denial. 01:04:00
There was no. 01:04:06
Anything. Umm. 01:04:07
And maybe I'm misunderstanding and you can clarify the records. 01:04:09
You forwarded it to me right before the meeting. The version I got was not signed and was labeled draft, so I don't know. 01:04:15
Right, we'll think about the authorship. 01:04:23
But one of the topics in it was. 01:04:26
The current city ordinance about how to get things on the agenda and what I understood there's the suggestion in the letter to be 01:04:29
was that. 01:04:33
Maybe that process instead of being an e-mail or. 01:04:38
A written process that it be some kind of a process within a public meeting. 01:04:41
The public has to know that it was denied. 01:04:47
I think that could work out. 01:04:51
If the council wants to handle it in that way, we could figure out a process. I don't, I don't know that that's a real. 01:04:53
Burden, especially if it's in draft, that would probably be something. Yeah, I have it again. I got the letter 5 minutes before 01:05:00
the meeting so I really. 01:05:04
Am not prepared to type the death on the topic but. 01:05:09
The one other thing I do want to mention on social media, just because it is an important consideration, we've talked about this 01:05:13
in the context of Open and Public Meetings Act. 01:05:17
There are other. 01:05:23
Laws that come to bear on social media in a in an important one is the 1st Amendment. 01:05:25
And we did a training a few months ago on a recent Supreme Court 2, recent Supreme Court decisions that dealt with social media 01:05:30
and public officials. 01:05:34
And I just want to be sure that you all have the warning that. 01:05:39
You are public officials. 01:05:43
You're now elected. 01:05:45
Public officials, your City Council members and when you speak on city on social media. 01:05:47
Unless you state that you are speaking in your individual capacity and not. 01:05:52
As a member of the City Council. 01:05:58
The perception, both by the public and the interpretation by the courts will be. 01:06:00
That you're acting in your official capacity. 01:06:06
And if the people you interact with are moderated? 01:06:09
Or are only admitted to a closed group. 01:06:14
Or can only access that communication through a closed group. 01:06:18
If folks are excluded, they may have the right to sue the city to force their inclusion in those conversations. So just please be 01:06:23
mindful of that. If you need direction on it, call me. 01:06:29
Yeah, but the the way I read those cases, you do have to be really explicit. 01:06:36
If you wish to communicate and not have it be considered you. 01:06:42
Communicating in your community. 01:06:47
Do you know how often those reminders are? Because I have a social Media Group that's for campaign purposes only. Would you say 01:06:49
like a biweekly, A monthly? 01:06:53
How often do I need to disclose? I wish the courts gave us that specific. I disclose it when I when they come in. I would be, I 01:06:58
would be sure. 01:07:02
I mean, my advice to you would be. 01:07:07
Most social media platforms have some place where you can. 01:07:09
Disclose identify yourself. So you know usually right you'll see people that'll say, you know like. 01:07:13
Husband, father, engineer kind of a thing and you can put in that. 01:07:21
You know I am a member of the City Council, but the things I post here are my own. But then. 01:07:26
Be warned that if at any point in time you make a post, even if you have that disclaimer and the post says. 01:07:33
For example. 01:07:40
The city is building a new City Hall and we need input about what it looks like and what things are at that facility. 01:07:42
The moment you do that you're again putting on a council members hat. 01:07:51
And it will be perceived that you are acting on behalf of the city as a city official. 01:07:55
And so you would in that post have to also make clear. 01:08:01
You know, I'm not asking this as a council member, I just am curious, what do people want this to be? 01:08:06
That's smart. You put it at the end of every. 01:08:14
I'm at yeah. 01:08:16
You know I. 01:08:17
You can't say one thing and have it be doing something else. 01:08:19
So good distinction. 01:08:24
OK, great. We're going to go ahead and move on from now. I hope your questions were answered. Looks like there's a lot of things 01:08:27
to work through. I'll go ahead and make sure I write those notes down. 01:08:32
On some of them and we'll see where we can get to. 01:08:37
On your requests. 01:08:40
This is now time for public comments. Can you raise your hand if you're going to make a public comment tonight? 01:08:42
Hey I have one. 01:08:48
Terry, you're just walking in, but I just asked if anybody's going to make a public comment tonight. 01:08:51
No. OK, come on up. 01:08:56
If this is the time to address us on things that are not on the agenda. 01:08:59
Russell Evans from The Villains. 01:09:07
This kind of was on the agenda, but I think I just want to give my thoughts. 01:09:09
I appreciate very much merophobia. You're a tribute to Don Oberson. 01:09:13
He and his wife were members of the Villas Live in the Villas. 01:09:17
And justice, we're really going to miss them. 01:09:22
Donna was serving on our HLA board. 01:09:25
The vice president. 01:09:28
He was elected. 01:09:30
He was also over the designer view function of the board. 01:09:31
And you just had all kinds of expertise. 01:09:37
And he also had Vineyard history, which you are well aware. 01:09:39
And. 01:09:43
He and his wife, Cory, were also serving. 01:09:45
As family service history family history mystery service missionaries up in Lehigh. 01:09:47
And he loved doing that. 01:09:52
But I just he will be sorely missed. 01:09:55
And he's more than didn't want to miss this opportunity to do that. 01:09:57
To say how much. 01:10:00
Done what a good person Don is and he will miss and thank you. Wonderful tribute to Don. Thank you so much. 01:10:02
All right, we'll go ahead and move in, the mayor council member reports. 01:10:09
I'll start with. 01:10:12
Sarah. 01:10:14
Do you have anything today, Sarah? 01:10:18
Umm, well just to talk a little bit more about last night's meeting. We had a good a good turn out and lots of questions were 01:10:21
answered. 01:10:25
So I think I think it turned out well. 01:10:29
I I would like to. 01:10:33
I mentioned that quite a few people we'd like to do it once a month. 01:10:35
And rotate council. 01:10:38
So that's kind of the goal over the next few months is to be able to do it. 01:10:40
Once a month and rotate council. 01:10:44
So they hear different points of view. 01:10:46
Umm, what else? 01:10:48
Every time I sit here I think, oh next time I'm going to 1st, you know, write things down till I remember. 01:10:53
But I did not. But I appreciate also the. 01:10:58
The recognition of. 01:11:01
Don Overson, I only met him once, but he seemed like a very. 01:11:03
A very wise man, so. 01:11:07
I think that's fitting. 01:11:09
To honor him with. 01:11:11
The plaque in there. 01:11:12
On the water tank so. 01:11:14
Thank you so much, Sarah. 01:11:15
OK. 01:11:24
Yeah. And I can take that also actually. OK. Well then I don't have anything to report. 01:11:26
It's just getting go ahead and fill in because you had several meetings that you. 01:11:31
Save my voice. 01:11:35
I can't fill in for you on the school board. I feel like you did a really good job on that. 01:11:38
There was some legislation that passed in regards to the school district. 01:11:45
Not specifically our school district is overall school district splitting. 01:11:50
And it's a pretty big bill. It was. 01:11:54
Really hard to work on with all the different opinions. You have 14 different cities that were. 01:11:58
Heavily weighing in. 01:12:03
And or I guess I should say, three different new districts in Alpine. 01:12:05
Or from Alpine school district that all had opinions. 01:12:10
It was a lot of work and I'm just so grateful. 01:12:13
To our legislators, to our school board members, to our City Council members and mayors. 01:12:17
And managers and attorneys that sent so much work and time. It really was. 01:12:22
A lot of work and. 01:12:28
And it probably will. It will most definitely, I'm sure, have revisions. 01:12:30
And like I said, it's not just for our area. It will, you know, it's legislation for the whole state. 01:12:35
But umm. 01:12:41
I just kind of never want to look at it again. 01:12:45
But it's. 01:12:48
I'm really grateful for all of the hard work that everyone put into it so. 01:12:50
Thank you. 01:12:55
All right. 01:12:56
Just on the education thing, Marty, I've had three or four. I don't think they're actually, they might be connected to the City 01:13:00
Council members and a staff. I don't know if they're official. 01:13:05
But in looking over the finances. 01:13:10
They're recognizing the lack of funding from our RDA towards education and. 01:13:13
There were a few that sent me some. 01:13:18
Not threatening, but like why is Vineyard gonna be attached? Are you hearing that? 01:13:20
Yet is the finances. 01:13:25
Was it? Was it people within our new school district like Pleasant Grove and Orem where like. 01:13:28
Where's all the finances for Orem's Urbania's education and. 01:13:35
I constituents or representatives? 01:13:39
Like council members or one one is with. I don't. 01:13:44
I don't know if there's, I don't know if they have staff or official staff or if it's, I don't know. I would look at it. Well, the 01:13:48
sentiment that we've been working really well with our cities, like we meet regularly and I've talked to other people outside of. 01:13:54
Specifically, the council assignment for the district. 01:14:01
And, umm. 01:14:04
I don't want to name names or pretend to have opinions or state opinions of other council members from other cities. 01:14:07
But the general consensus is they see Vineyard as a long term investment that's going to help with their. 01:14:13
WP use is that the right background WPS? Yeah, the the. 01:14:20
They they actually are grateful to have them would be a part of it. If you recall during the prop. 01:14:25
Two initiative in Orem when they tried to create their own school district, their long term goal was always to involve involve 01:14:33
Orem. I'm sorry. 01:14:36
And so. 01:14:41
We have some pretty great relationships and they do see Vineyard. 01:14:42
Will help financially as they've already seen some of the Rda's. Umm. 01:14:47
Advancement payout. 01:14:53
And they've also, like I said, the Wpus are very important. 01:14:55
And. 01:14:59
Long term investment, yeah. 01:15:01
The long term investment is the biggest thing and I really hope. 01:15:02
That when you hear people talk about the RDA saying that they're concerned with that, I hope you will explain to them. 01:15:05
How we already have increased? 01:15:12
Our taxable value on several properties and how we are a long term investment. 01:15:14
Because I think that your representation on that matter will help people see Vineyard as a benefit rather than. 01:15:18
Umm, you know. 01:15:26
A liability. 01:15:28
Did you have anything else you wanted to report on? 01:15:29
Meeting to report on. 01:15:34
No, but in light of the last minute letter from the state auditor, I think we need to postpone the code of conduct another week or 01:15:38
two. 01:15:42
They didn't have time to look at a few things and I just said. 01:15:46
And I agree with the draft part of things. If we could get a couple of weeks on that, that'd be great. 01:15:51
I don't want to touch on the code of conduct. Did you? 01:15:57
Right, I don't think. 01:16:01
There were quite a few different. 01:16:03
I got it at like 4:15 today. 01:16:06
And I knew they were working on certain things. 01:16:10
And it's like. 01:16:13
Timeline and so I saw certain things that they addressed, but others. 01:16:15
That, but other than that. 01:16:19
I thought it just had to do with a financial request that you made that you are provided with. 01:16:27
I don't see anything. Did you send something in asking them about the code of conduct? 01:16:32
Yeah, I engage with them on. 01:16:37
Statutes of where and how on things I think I've had. 01:16:40
I don't know. 01:16:45
Did you guys do that as a committee? 01:16:46
No, I I this was a side thing on the. 01:16:48
On the Ledger. 01:16:52
That led to a larger conversation of. 01:16:54
Umm, so. 01:16:58
But like we could, I mean, I would just ask for more time. 01:17:01
On that, I don't want to put words in there now. 01:17:06
But I know that there's. 01:17:09
It's not a final. 01:17:13
Letter yet? 01:17:15
I am going to Brett. Did you have anything you wanted to report on that's not the code of conduct? 01:17:18
No. OK, then let's go ahead and let's move through the agenda. 01:17:23
And Eric, did you want to make your report or do you mind if we just post it via time? Did you have anything highlights you wanted 01:17:28
to state for the public? 01:17:32
Before you post it, we've got a 10 page report. There's lots of cool stuff. Make sure you review it. There's there's neat things 01:17:37
happening in the city and lots of great updates so that you can feel up to date on. 01:17:42
Just about everything we're working on right now. So awesome. 01:17:46
All right, then can I go ahead and get a motion on the consent items? 01:17:52
Can we? 01:18:01
Remove the 7.3. 01:18:04
The town hall day store. So you want to do a motion for 7.1 and 7.2. I make a motion to approve 7.1 and 7.2. All right, I have a 01:18:07
first by Jake for 7.1 and 7.2. Can I get a second? 01:18:13
Second. Second by Sarah. All in favor. 01:18:19
Aye. 01:18:22
All right, Marty is excused for this, she said. I just kidding. 01:18:24
All right, we'll go ahead and we'll talk about 7.3. Eric, can you read off those dates? Do you have them before you? 01:18:29
I do not have them before me. Give me a minute and I can. I don't think the issue is actually the dates, I just think it's 01:18:37
actually more of a forum. I think it would be great if we. 01:18:42
Did it more of like at the mic here and allowing people to come and talk to the full body. Oh OK, so you just wondering to talk 01:18:47
about how we do the town hall like the Yeah, I think we did it last year that way and I'd love to rotate to doing it more of them 01:18:52
just. 01:18:57
Addressing the body instead of addressing staff. 01:19:02
The way that I remember it last year was we did multiple different ways. We had opportunities for roundtables, we had 01:19:06
opportunities for where we had. 01:19:10
Rooms with boards and we had staff and all of the council and we all answered questions that were able to attend. 01:19:15
And I believe that's how we did it last time, which I think is a really engaging time because citizens get to have personal 01:19:23
conversations. 01:19:27
With the council and with staff. 01:19:30
Asking questions about the City Council. Do you feel differently or are you OK with the way we've done it? Or to clarify on the 01:19:33
format of a town hall? 01:19:37
That it will be a rotating thing, right? 01:19:42
Where we have two council members, we can do the rotating like we did last year or we also had one where all of us came. If you 01:19:46
remember the one in July that we did, the entire council was there. So we. 01:19:52
We kind of approached it town hall by town hall, where we said, hey, who can be at this? And. 01:19:59
And did mostly rotating and then did one with all of us and that's what met all of our schedules. Eric, did you have something to 01:20:05
add? 01:20:08
Two quick things. One, our plan is to just go ahead and notice all four of these this year, OK? 01:20:12
And that way, whichever council members would like to attend or welcome to attend if. 01:20:19
More than two at hand. 01:20:23
We'll go ahead and. 01:20:25
Put up a recording to whatever degree we can make that work. 01:20:27
And we have some off site there, right? We do have some off site. 01:20:31
The other thing that I was going to mention is that at last night's meeting. 01:20:36
An interesting piece of feedback that came in from the public. 01:20:40
Was they said, where's all your boards? We love that setup. We love being able to walk around and ask questions and figure out 01:20:44
what's going on in the city. And so there is. 01:20:48
At least last night's shout out for the the format that we've been using because that's. 01:20:52
It really gets people engaged and and. 01:20:57
Ask a question. I imagine data as we approach them. We could do what we did last year, which was allowed staff, which is Eric and 01:20:59
his team to kind of come up with different ways to do it. This last year we held one where we sat around and we did a whiteboard 01:21:05
for parking. 01:21:10
It was one of the meetings outside of our regular scheduled town halls that we did. 01:21:15
We did kind of engage that way with the entire council. 01:21:19
We've done the boards before. We do off sites where we talk about an actual site location, which I think we have one scheduled for 01:21:23
that. 01:21:27
Council, do you feel comfortable with the different formats or do you want to change them all to be a specific way? Can I ask a 01:21:32
question since I. 01:21:38
Wasn't in this position. 01:21:43
For last year. 01:21:45
Yeah, umm. 01:21:46
Having these as outline. 01:21:48
Does not preclude additional town halls on a more informal basis. 01:21:51
Right. Yeah, these are public facing. 01:21:56
Council town halls. 01:21:59
Yeah, I just know that there's a lot of energy that would love to allow, especially if you said in July, hey, in July, this gives 01:22:02
you the opportunity to come and talk to the whole body. 01:22:08
I don't think there's, I think there's appetite that citizens do like interacting with staff and. 01:22:14
You know, giving feedback to staff, but I think that many cases they would like to talk directly to us. 01:22:20
And talk to not all of them, but the July 1 would be great. It looks like all of the meetings will be publicly noticed, which 01:22:26
means that all of us will be there so they'll have a chance to rotate and talk to all of the council members who can be present. 01:22:33
And I think that what you're asking for is very similar to what? 01:22:41
We do in the public comment section. That's where people can come and say what they want to say and have us all here. Cannot be. 01:22:45
Yeah, not be 3 minutes, you know, give them. 01:22:50
Got two hours? Let's go. What do you want to say? If you want to stay long, you want to talk, great. 01:22:55
You have a lot on your chest. You have big ideas. 01:22:59
Kind of like, you know, the, what do they call it, America's Got Talent with the judges. Just let them RIP. What do you want to 01:23:03
hear? And let us write down your ideas. 01:23:07
I would just say whatever makes it more collaborative. And I think what I was trying to say and I'm not sure if I said it well. 01:23:13
I would. I feel like we have that opportunity where? 01:23:20
Maybe I, I. 01:23:24
I think that most people can get to their point within 3 to 5 minutes. 01:23:26
And I don't know how it works with the town hall if we were all sitting up here and allowing people to come up and make comment 01:23:31
and then us. 01:23:35
All responding without publicly noticed items. I don't know how that works. I think we could. This is what we recommended last 01:23:38
time that staff kind of create opportunities for us to really engage and talk about what's going on. There's an off site. 01:23:46
That's talking about some construction and grants that are happening, so it wouldn't be the right time. 01:23:53
There might be another meeting where it makes sense for all of us to sit down and whiteboard like we did with the parking. 01:23:58
For me personally, I don't think I'm going to recommend all meetings or feel like we necessarily need to assign one meeting, but 01:24:05
we could put that out there and say at one of our meetings we want to do a white board. As far as just having people come up and 01:24:11
talk to us, it didn't feel as collaborative for me, but I did like the white board. 01:24:16
Response where we didn't give people time limits, we just let them talk and I. 01:24:23
But we did say hey, come. 01:24:28
We're hoping you're bringing a new idea when you get to the microphone so there's not redundancy. 01:24:30
If you guys feel comfortable with that, we could go with that same kind of. 01:24:36
Forum. 01:24:41
Yeah, I agree. I like the. 01:24:42
Town Hall, That was a good point. 01:24:44
Yeah, that form works great. 01:24:46
OK, So what I recommended was that staff will come up with it. It'll be multiple different types of forums. 01:24:48
And they will approach them and bring them back to us, and then we will get to attend them because they'll be publicly noticed. 01:24:55
And now we know that that's one of the forms we want to incorporate. Does that work OK with that? 01:25:01
Umm, the person that makes this a motion will just add that little stipulation that we. 01:25:07
Allow the staff to do that. 01:25:14
So I just need to I move to approve 7.3. Did I get that right? 01:25:18
With the stipulation that staff will. 01:25:23
Create different formats. 01:25:27
That allow different types of collaboration and discussion. Great. I have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:25:29
Second, second by Sarah. All in favor, Aye. All right, let's move on to our public hearing. We're going to talk about the Parks 01:25:36
and Rec Master plan. Actually, we're not. This item is being continued to the next meeting. 01:25:42
So I'm going to continue with the public hearing as well. That way you guys will know what we're actually talking about when we 01:25:48
have the public hearing. So I need a motion to move this. 01:25:54
Public hearing to the next regularly scheduled meeting or. 01:26:00
A motion to continue a public hearing needs to state the specific date. 01:26:05
I moved to move the public hearing to our next meeting, which is scheduled for Wednesday, March 26th. 01:26:10
And can I move or do we need to vote at 6:00 PM? Does it have to state the time at 6:00 PM? OK. 01:26:21
So can I make the two motions at the same time? 01:26:29
And then I also make a motion to move. 01:26:32
The Parks and Recreation master plan to the next meeting, that same meeting. 01:26:35
OK, umm. 01:26:41
Great. I have a motion by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:26:44
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 01:26:48
I'm going to do this by roll call Jake. 01:26:52
Yes, Brett. Aye, aye, Marty. Yes, Sarah. All right, that brings us to our consolidated fee schedule amendment public hearing. I'm 01:26:54
going to ask to go into a public hearing. 01:27:00
So moved. Thanks. I have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:27:07
Second. Second by Sarah. All in favor. 01:27:10
Aye, aye. 01:27:13
Any opposed all right. 01:27:14
And we will be hearing from our utility billing clerk, Maria. 01:27:16
And she's gonna present. 01:27:20
All right. So, yeah, for all the changes that are on the consolidated fee schedule. 01:27:23
Just to remind you guys that the impact fees have been moved to the next meeting. 01:27:29
So on Page 3. 01:27:35
We did add the clarification for the new parking permits. 01:27:37
For the designated local roles to be $20 per permit and the amenity roads to be $60. 01:27:41
On the next page we have. 01:27:48
What page are you referencing here? 01:27:51
#3. 01:27:53
If he says hold the draft. 01:27:54
On page four we have 3 new things. 01:27:57
Parks and Rec. So we have. 01:28:01
The Youth Street Hockey League. 01:28:03
The Youth Pickleball league and the whiffle ball tournament. 01:28:05
And then? 01:28:08
On #5 We just took out the rates that are effective just because I already passed. 01:28:10
On #7. 01:28:17
The special events has added a children's market fee. 01:28:19
As well as removed. 01:28:23
The summer celebration food vendor. 01:28:25
And just made it as Vineyard Days vendors. 01:28:28
The food truck lender fee has gone up. 01:28:31
Arrest change to be can arrange. 01:28:35
Uh, let's see here #9 there was just some clarification on the words. 01:28:40
As well as #10 for towing. 01:28:46
We would. We're changing it from from certificate to qualification. 01:28:49
What does that mean for the? 01:28:56
The Trump company does not have a. 01:28:59
It was, I believe. 01:29:02
See, that one's more for full. 01:29:05
That was in response to the state towing ordinance. They they don't allow a city to require a. 01:29:07
Separate certificate or a license? 01:29:12
And so we want our state, our our municipal code says. 01:29:15
If they're going to contract towing on private property and enter into an agreement. 01:29:20
That may need to be a designated tone coming with a city, which means they're willing to abide by our city ordinance. So we needed 01:29:24
to just change that verbiage to make sure that we were in compliance. 01:29:28
And then? 01:29:35
For page 12. 01:29:44
We have added for public works a red curb request application. 01:29:47
As well as a red curve paint. 01:29:52
And then the final thing is. 01:29:58
OK, so they pay for that? 01:30:01
Yeah. 01:30:02
That's just if they requested, if it's not something that the city would be doing in their own accord. 01:30:03
And the last thing is a fire hydrant rental meter that has gone up just due to the cost of a hydrometer going up. 01:30:10
All right, um. 01:30:18
Anybody from the public? Do you have any questions about any of these? 01:30:20
Not at this time. 01:30:25
All right, can I get a Muslim to go out of the public hearing? 01:30:26
So I have a first time already, can I get a second? 01:30:29
2nd thank you Sarah. All in favor. 01:30:32
All right, let's get some questions going from the Council. 01:30:35
Do you guys have any questions come back up. 01:30:41
You're not done. 01:30:43
Haven't been in a while, just a. 01:30:45
Shout out to UMM. 01:30:47
Events and Parks and Rec, I'm excited for the new programs that you guys have put on there. 01:30:50
I think 1. I think my kids might be too old for for the programs. I don't know the ages yet but. 01:30:56
Street hockey is really cool that you're trying that. 01:31:01
And then also, I think it's really great that Anna is taking on the children's. 01:31:04
The market rather than having going through the other companies great, but I think it's cool that Anna's taking that on and. 01:31:10
Cutting that up, that'll be super fun, yeah. 01:31:17
Awesome. It's a really cool market. 01:31:20
Umm, with the record request. 01:31:23
Does this request an application go outside of where we normally mark? 01:31:26
The red curve. 01:31:31
OK. 01:31:33
All right, other questions. 01:31:41
If not. 01:31:43
Question on the food truck vendor fee to make it arrange. 01:31:45
How do you determine which what the actual bank? That's a curiosity question as much as I do. 01:31:48
We reached out to our events coordinator today and. 01:31:53
They base that the cost. 01:31:57
Per truck is equal. 01:32:00
On any given day. 01:32:04
What they're assessing is if this is a really small event, they're going to just charge them that lower fee. 01:32:06
If it's a really big event that is highly desirable, they'll charge them the larger fee. 01:32:11
And maybe something in between if it's somewhere in between. 01:32:17
So proving your days they'll end up paying more because that's correct, but maybe Heritage days as an example. 01:32:20
Which is not quite the same scope of an event. They might charge them the lower amount. 01:32:26
Thank you. 01:32:31
OK. 01:32:32
It is my time to comment. 01:32:35
I just want to say how wonderful it was working with him and on the idea of overcrowding. That meeting the other day was awesome. 01:32:37
I agree with all the changes and everything. 01:32:45
The only thing is, is the parking. I know it has nothing to do with you at the digital parking pass, but. 01:32:48
Other than that, I agree 100% with it. 01:32:54
Perfect. 01:32:56
Since a digital parking pass cut. 01:32:58
Rates for our citizens and allow additional visitor parking. 01:33:00
And maybe so people could swap IDs and. 01:33:05
Made it really amenable and came from the. 01:33:08
Umm, multiple. 01:33:12
Opportunities that we had with the. 01:33:15
Citizens of Vineyard and including the town halls. 01:33:18
Correct. Yeah, OK. 01:33:22
All right, well, can I get a motion? 01:33:24
I don't want to hog all the mushrooms. Go for it. 01:33:32
I moved. 01:33:35
I move to approve Resolution 2025, Dash 06, the consolidated fee schedule amendment. 01:33:37
All right, we got a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:33:45
OK. Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 01:33:48
All right, I'm going to do this by roll call. 01:33:52
Sarah, Marty. Aye aye, Brett. 01:33:55
Jake No. 01:33:59
All right. 01:34:01
Thank you so much. Thank you discussing the. 01:34:02
Or code of conduct change. It seems like Jake has been in discussion with the auditor. Brett, I know you haven't been a party to 01:34:05
that discussion, is there? 01:34:10
Something that you want to still move forward and get something on the table today and do your report or would you like to at 01:34:15
least? 01:34:18
Have that discussion here. 01:34:21
I think we should definitely have the discussion and it's it's my opinion that we. 01:34:23
Unless there's a motion in. 01:34:30
There and everybody wants to move forward. My opinion is that we should move ahead with a with a vote tonight. I feel like we've 01:34:32
had. 01:34:36
Two months to work on this and I think that's sufficient time. I'm quite proud of what we've produced. 01:34:40
Over the last. 01:34:48
Couple of weeks. 01:34:49
Have gone and done a whole bunch of additional research on. 01:34:51
Similar types of ordinances and codes and bylaws in. 01:34:55
Other cities and. 01:35:00
We are much more thoughtful than anyone else in Utah. 01:35:03
And that is something that I think we should be proud of. 01:35:08
Umm, to the point where? 01:35:11
Many other cities. 01:35:14
That do have things. They have a single line that says by a 2/3 vote. 01:35:16
The Council can do basically whatever they want. 01:35:22
And that. 01:35:26
It feels like the thing that we don't want. 01:35:27
So I feel really good about what we've done. 01:35:33
But I'm absolutely open if there, if there's a motion to continue if that were to pass I. 01:35:35
The will of the Council is where I've. 01:35:41
Where I would go there? Would you like to understand what's in the letter? I've had a moment to read it. Yes, please. 01:35:43
So I. 01:35:49
I don't know the context of this letter it. 01:35:51
Is a Microsoft Word document. It has in it. 01:35:55
The seal of the state auditor's office. It's signed by an individual named Seth Elvis and a CPA, apparently within the auditor's 01:35:59
office. 01:36:03
The document is labeled as draft. It's unsigned. 01:36:07
It doesn't indicate who requested the letter or. 01:36:11
What the questions were that were asked of the auditor's office, but there is not anything in the letter that. 01:36:15
Relates. 01:36:20
In my view. 01:36:21
To the code of conduct at all it does deal with. 01:36:23
Access to the general Ledger and it essentially confirms the guidance that we provided to Councilmember Holdaway when he received 01:36:28
the Ledger, which is. 01:36:32
If it's shared with the third party. 01:36:37
Then they need to relay with that, sharing the privacy concerns and then the city has to track. 01:36:40
That information so we're aware of. 01:36:46
Who might have? 01:36:48
Private information. It has some suggestions about what things need to be publicly available through the Transparent Utah website. 01:36:50
I don't read any of that of being inconsistent with the city's practices. 01:36:58
They have a paragraph about the city ordinance about putting items on the agenda. 01:37:02
We can bring that up at a later meeting if changes need to be made. 01:37:08
On that, it's not clear to me that they do, but if they do, we can discuss and talk about them. 01:37:13
And then it has. 01:37:18
Some conversation about closed meeting and what? 01:37:20
Kinds of closed meeting topics can be discussed and in what setting. 01:37:24
That's it. So there's not anything I can see in the letter that relates it all to the code code. 01:37:29
I think in context. 01:37:35
Yeah, on. 01:37:39
February 24th I got an e-mail from Eric stating I wouldn't be getting the general Ledger with the. 01:37:41
The ability, I could get it. 01:37:48
That I wouldn't be given the ability to have a CPA. 01:37:49
To review, can I call point of order? We're supposed to be talking about the code of conduct. 01:37:53
Right, right. We're giving that appropriate. 01:37:58
Yeah, it is. Can we just talk about the code of conduct? So I guess what Sarah would be stating is are there questions about the 01:38:01
code of conduct that you wrote? Yeah. So part of the code of conduct has a section in it that deals with. 01:38:07
If you are. 01:38:13
Sharing documents or not sharing documents, and there's a question about it that the council can go into a closed door session to 01:38:15
review that. 01:38:19
And so. 01:38:23
Yeah, this the conversation that that I think is the one issue is like the authority of the City Council and so. 01:38:25
Umm, so I got this like an hour before. I don't know, like like I said, it's still a draft, but after. 01:38:34
I don't remember 6 meetings, 5 I don't remember. 01:38:44
How the back and forth? 01:38:47
Of where that authority rides or whatnot. And there were a big long list. I know Jamie mentioned like 5 of them. 01:38:50
That were discussed of kind of clarifying that. 01:38:56
Yes, that works under Tina and the state auditors office. 01:38:59
Can you point in the code of conduct? 01:39:03
Where where where that reference is? Because I'm not sure. 01:39:06
With the hours and hours I've spent with that document, it's unclear to me what you're referencing. 01:39:11
Umm, there's a section and I sent it over about the review like. 01:39:16
Where we would go? 01:39:24
Closed door session, right? 01:39:25
Closed door. 01:39:29
Close our session. 01:39:31
So to be clear. 01:39:33
Not the way the way that it's the way that it's stated in the. 01:39:35
Code of conduct. 01:39:40
Anything that has to do with grandma. 01:39:41
Is included under ethical violations. 01:39:44
And the stipulation in the current draft of the Code of Conduct. 01:39:48
Is that 100% of those get referred to the state, right? And that's why like I don't want to, we do not go into a closed session. 01:39:52
To make any. 01:40:00
Online document user OK OK so. 01:40:02
I may go in if someone were to question hey was there an inappropriate use of document? 01:40:06
And we don't. 01:40:13
We don't know. There is stipulation to go into a closed session if we think, hey, we don't know if that is a violation or not. 01:40:14
Then the action of the Council. 01:40:22
It is not to take any additional action beyond that. 01:40:25
I always just, like I said, when I saw the draft as well, I was like, oh. 01:40:30
You know, I would love some counsel on like what and where. 01:40:36
So that was my only thing was. 01:40:40
Until I saw that with removed, I was like because I know that that's what the. 01:40:43
My conversations with them were were I think if you didn't want to refer to the state where it belongs right now, if you heard 01:40:47
from the auditor and you wanted to bring it back to council for us to review it. 01:40:54
We could always go through an amendment process. 01:41:00
And vote this in according to state and referring it to the state currently. 01:41:04
Because right now what we're doing is you're going to the state auditor to refer to the state, and right now this just refers to 01:41:09
the state. So the only thing that we would be doing is bringing it back to Vineyard. 01:41:15
And if you wanted to do that, we can always make amendments in the future. 01:41:21
Yeah. Let me just, let me just first preface this probably because I probably could have started that way. 01:41:27
This document is 1000 times better from where we started and. 01:41:33
I would like to congratulate or even thank Brett and I feel very comfortable. 01:41:38
With my limited knowledge on understanding of code of conduct. 01:41:42
And where things were. 01:41:47
In my. 01:41:49
Last meeting I had felt like, OK, could we get some like some final resolution of like where? 01:41:50
And that was my only reserve. It wasn't anything towards the work or the great work that we. 01:41:58
Had conducted. 01:42:03
It was more of like the access to documents and the argument. 01:42:04
Of between. 01:42:09
From the February 26 of trying to get a CPA till now, I haven't had a CPA and I've been. 01:42:11
Working with them to say why can't I get that? 01:42:17
And then they work through that whole process and we're able to get that letter so that I can finally get one. 01:42:20
And I don't think that really has anything to do with the code of conduct. So I think that. 01:42:26
Let's go ahead and move forward from my opinion and if you want to bring any reviews and not refer them just to the state back to 01:42:31
Vineyard if that ends up coming out of the auditors office, it looks like right now we're in compliance and we are on the same 01:42:36
page with everything the. 01:42:41
The draft note unsigned said so. 01:42:47
I feel comfortable moving forward. Thank you for the work that was put in council. Do you have any additional questions or would 01:42:50
you feel good about adopting this right now? Another comment I'd like to make on this is. 01:42:57
Should umm. 01:43:05
Well, a couple of things. 01:43:07
Run. The proposal is to adopt this as. 01:43:09
Bylaws and not as code which gives us. 01:43:14
A lot more flexibility in learning. 01:43:17
How we operate with this code? 01:43:20
And I also just want to reiterate. 01:43:24
That at any time, if we find that it is being abused or if we get additional information from. 01:43:27
A third party review. 01:43:35
I personally would be happy to be a second to put. 01:43:39
A review of this. 01:43:43
A council agenda. 01:43:45
So that we can re evaluate it and make changes as needed. 01:43:46
Are you recommending that we put it in the bylaws versus a code? 01:43:51
Yeah, this was recommended. Does everybody feel comfortable? That's how it's in your packet. So it'll be adopted by resolution, 01:43:57
not by ordinance. And then that resolution points to the legal authorities, both state law and your existing. 01:44:03
Municipal ordinance, Does everybody feel comfortable with that? 01:44:09
OK, I would like to recognize those that put work into I don't know if. 01:44:12
They, David Pierce or David Larae would like to stand up and speak of the great work that. 01:44:18
It was a good collaborative effort. 01:44:23
Sonia did a wonderful job. Many many, many hands made the. 01:44:26
Oh, there were more than that too. We also had Jacob Wood. Jacob Wood. And the four of them were the citizens that did the most. 01:44:33
Christy Henshaw. The Republican Party chimed in. And there was Chris Brown. Chris Bramwell. 01:44:40
And so the document it was just. 01:44:47
This hit like an hour right before and I was like oh. 01:44:49
Were you going to address that? Were you not? And I didn't even get an e-mail and say, you know. 01:44:53
Where are you at? That's the only, that was the only pause. It seems like it doesn't refer to this at all. And so if there's any 01:44:59
changes, it looks like we can make an amendment. So I'm going to call for a motion. 01:45:04
Please make a motion. 01:45:09
Please, you want to do it right, you should do it. 01:45:13
I moved to adopt resolution. 01:45:17
2025 Dash 08 approving the proposed Code of Conduct as presented. 01:45:19
All right. We have a motion to approve as presented by Brett. Can I get a second? 01:45:24
Aye, all right. Fake is the second on that. 01:45:29
And I'm going to do this by roll call. 01:45:34
And I'll start with Sarah. 01:45:38
Hi, Marty. 01:45:41
Aye, Brett. 01:45:43
Our meetings attorney, thank you so much for coming. 01:45:48
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Right. 00:00:05
How do you we just have the State Council meeting, right? Yeah. 00:00:11
All right, all right. Today is March 12th. The time is 609. 00:00:14
Umm, we're going to go ahead and get started with our venue City Council meeting. 00:00:20
Council Member Cameron will go ahead and give us our invocation and lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance. 00:00:25
Our dear Father in heaven, we come before Thee at the beginning of this meeting and ask for Thy Spirit to be with us. 00:00:35
That we will be able to be kind and productive and. 00:00:40
Be able to listen and be aware of the needs of our city. 00:00:45
And do the best of our ability. 00:00:48
Provide. 00:00:51
The services that we need to. 00:00:53
We are grateful for thy guidance and thy inspiration and. 00:00:55
Hope in all we do, and we say these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. 00:00:59
Alright. 00:01:05
And. 00:01:15
One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. 00:01:18
All right. 00:01:48
I wanted to read something that I wrote. 00:01:54
I recently. 00:01:57
One of our former employees and City Engineer and Public Works Director Don Overson. 00:02:00
Passed away. 00:02:06
And I wanted to talk a little bit about him and then talk about a resolution that we put together to honor. 00:02:08
To honor Don. 00:02:15
And I was hoping to get a room. 00:02:17
A motion by the council to approve that recommendation. 00:02:19
But in a city? 00:02:23
Public works. 00:02:25
Helps to build our community where we drive, the water we drink. 00:02:27
And the trees we sit under. 00:02:32
And they do this. 00:02:34
With uh. 00:02:36
Physical labor and. 00:02:37
They also really care about the community. 00:02:41
And on he had been here. 00:02:44
For most of the time that. 00:02:47
Have served in the city. 00:02:49
As one of our full time employees, one of our first full time employees. 00:02:52
And he was a very visionary person and very dedicated, and he had a lot of. 00:02:56
Foresight into the future and really just an unwavering commitment to the city's success. 00:03:00
And for 15 years he carried. 00:03:07
The weight of making sore everybody's water was getting to their house. 00:03:10
And that the roads LED somewhere. 00:03:14
And every family could rely on the team that he initially established to bring that. 00:03:17
Quality of life that we just take for granted. 00:03:27
And when he retired, many people didn't know that it just whips hands rights in the scene because it was seamless. 00:03:30
They are so thoughtful about what they do. 00:03:37
And when Don started. 00:03:41
We were just a very small town. It was mostly just people living on one Rd. 00:03:42
And I remember when I was serving on Planning Commission and it was just a couple of us that were showing up with two people that 00:03:48
worked here sitting in the audience. 00:03:53
And so he really had this. 00:03:59
Opportunity to touch most of. 00:04:01
Is here today and what we're looking at. 00:04:04
And I wanted to talk about how. 00:04:07
You know, we want to talk about the legacy that people leave behind, and there's not really something that I can pinpoint. 00:04:10
For what he left behind. But I do remember that when he was retiring he told me he had his big 5. 00:04:16
That he wanted to accomplish before he left. 00:04:22
And so many of those things we've got to accomplish together, but the one that you really wanted to make sure. 00:04:25
Vineyard did not go without before he left and he couldn't retire until it was done. Was setting up our water tank and making 00:04:31
sure. 00:04:35
That the people of the Northeast had this water tank moving forward and he was really grateful to have it be where it was and and 00:04:39
put that torch. 00:04:45
Pass that torch. 00:04:51
When the time came and. 00:04:52
And he was very dedicated to it and. 00:04:54
So we literally. 00:04:58
A drink in the water. 00:04:59
And crossing the bridges and sitting under trees that Don helped build. 00:05:01
Umm, sorry. 00:05:07
That he is not. 00:05:16
You won't get to totally see the finish of. 00:05:21
How it all plans out that he built it and he's not here with us, but he he was very proud of it and after living in a community 00:05:25
for. 00:05:29
30 some years. 00:05:34
Don left it to come and retire and live in the communities and helped build because he loved this city and he wanted to be here 00:05:36
and he was very involved. And so the very end we were just. 00:05:41
Emailing last week and so such a. 00:05:46
A small moment in time, but that is. 00:05:51
That is. 00:05:53
A legacy that Don left us is a community that we love and that we hopefully will continue to take care of. 00:05:55
With the same dedication and determination that. 00:06:04
That Don Overson felt for this community. 00:06:07
So. 00:06:11
With that. 00:06:12
I want to. 00:06:13
I wrote some sappy thing at the end that I'm going to leave it with that because he was not really a sappy guy. He was just kind 00:06:15
of. 00:06:19
Cut and dry so this makes more sense. 00:06:22
But I'll, I'll read the resolution and then. 00:06:26
I'll call for. 00:06:29
For an acceptance of it from the Council. 00:06:32
Don Overson served as Vineyard City's engineer and public works director from June 2nd, 2014 to July 1st, 2021. 00:06:36
And he actually worked on the city a lot longer than that. But, um. 00:06:44
With a contract work. 00:06:48
During his tenure, he played a critical role in the city's rapid growth in infrastructure development, overseeing key projects 00:06:51
that enhance transportation, utilities and public services. 00:06:55
His expertise and leadership were instrumental in ensuring the city's infrastructure. 00:07:00
Met the needs of its expanding population while maintaining high standards of safety, efficiency and sustainability. 00:07:04
One of his most significant contributions. 00:07:12
Was his work on Vineyard City's water system. 00:07:15
Under his guidance, the city developed a reliable and resilient water infrastructure. 00:07:18
Including the design and implementation of a water tank and booster station. And I'm just going to pause because if you knew. 00:07:23
The discussions that brought us to the point, they were really funny. 00:07:29
Where they came from, at one point I remember Don wanting to put a rock climbing wall on the side of the water tank. He he was 00:07:32
very creative. His commitment to securing the city's long term water supply. 00:07:38
Has left a lasting impact on the community. 00:07:44
And recognition of his outstanding service and dedication to the city's progress. Vineyard City wishes to honor Donnie Overson. 00:07:47
By naming the water tank Donnie Overson. 00:07:55
Water tanked. This designation serves as a tribute to his contributions and ensures. 00:07:58
That his legacy remains a part of the city's history. And really because as seamlessly as everything happens, as we turn on the 00:08:04
water and as we drink from those faucets and as we pull our trash to the curb. 00:08:10
Names kind of move on and flow without us recognizing them, and so we want to give his his name a home. 00:08:17
Another home. 00:08:24
Umm, we. 00:08:26
That is kind of the background of this. 00:08:29
And. 00:08:32
You can read the formal resolution and recognition of the dawn. It'll be posted in the hallway. 00:08:35
And then we can. 00:08:42
Go ahead and vote on this. 00:08:45
And what we'll do is, in honor of his family and the work and effort that he has put forward, we will. 00:08:46
The ceremony where we put that plaque up and we'll have people come and honor him and talk about it. 00:08:55
When he passed away, I was able to talk to so many people whose lives he touched and they will probably want to come and say a few 00:09:02
words so. 00:09:06
Anyway, I need a motion to accept the resolution I gave you. Background on the resolution of the resolution is available for your 00:09:12
meeting. 00:09:16
Can I make a comment before we go? 00:09:21
So. 00:09:24
I'm glad you got emotional about Don, because I did too. 00:09:27
I left the villas last night. 00:09:31
I'm leaving from his and I was close by Cory in his house and. 00:09:33
Umm. 00:09:39
I met I met Don and my grandparents home when. 00:09:45
Don was always searching for. 00:09:50
History of the founding documents and those old farmers didn't have a lot of written things down so. 00:09:54
In those days. 00:10:01
John was always at Kimora's house, my grandma's house and. 00:10:03
And uh. 00:10:09
I can't tell you how many times Dawn would. 00:10:11
Be fighting a developer for vineyards. 00:10:16
Right of the contract or? 00:10:21
Making sure we were made whole or fixing some sort of problem. 00:10:23
And. 00:10:28
There were a few fights, I don't want to say to the developer, where I was so impressed with Dawn's. 00:10:32
Care to make things right when mistakes were made? 00:10:39
And. 00:10:46
When I. 00:10:49
He was a good man. 00:10:56
So I want to say. 00:10:57
Thank you. Does anybody else want to say anything? I apologize if I didn't offer that. 00:11:01
All right, with that, can I have a motion to accept this? 00:11:06
Resolutions were recognized on Everson. 00:11:11
And it comes with a fiscal impact of $500. 00:11:14
Umm, so moved. Thank you. We have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 00:11:21
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 00:11:27
All right, I'm going to go ahead and do this by roll call, Jake. 00:11:31
Yes. 00:11:34
Brett aye. 00:11:35
Hi, Marty. Aye, Sarah. 00:11:36
All right. Thank you so much. And you know what? 00:11:39
We usually stand to welcome people to the community and we stand to send them off when they leave us. And I think it would be 00:11:43
really great if we could just stand for a few seconds, a moment of silence for the passing of dawn. 00:11:49
Thank you. 00:12:14
All right, this brings us fighting through our work session. 00:12:17
We're going to be discussing our open public meetings at town halls, social media subcommittees and staff resources. 00:12:21
And I am not. Jamie, are you leaning out on this or is Eric? 00:12:28
I can lay down but it I think it's intended to be more of a discussion and I'm here as a resource so. 00:12:34
I have some orienting slides and then. 00:12:41
We can jump into whatever you all would like to talk about. 00:12:44
We do annual training on. 00:12:48
Open a Public Meetings act. This is not that training, so it's not. 00:12:49
Intended to be comprehensive, but. 00:12:54
I've had a number of council members asking this week questions about the Open Public Meetings Act and I think there's enough 00:12:56
dialogue circulated in the community about. 00:13:01
How to interpret the act as it relates to some of your behavior? 00:13:06
And to the training that I provided in the past and I wanted to. 00:13:10
Talk through what the ACT does and doesn't say. 00:13:14
Where? 00:13:17
Where there is room for interpretation. 00:13:19
What my advice would be to you on. 00:13:21
Those areas where there is room for interpretation and then to answer any questions that I may have. 00:13:24
Really. You? 00:13:29
For me, as we go through it, so. 00:13:31
To Orient our conversation. 00:13:33
There have been. 00:13:36
Two things put to me repeatedly over the last week or so. The first is as it relates to public gatherings. 00:13:37
Outside of your normal. 00:13:45
City Council meetings. 00:13:47
These are constituent meetings, town hall meetings, planning meetings. 00:13:49
Committee meetings. 00:13:53
And the questions have been about. 00:13:54
What the Open and Public Meetings Act says relative to participation by Council members in those meetings. 00:13:57
When they must. 00:14:03
Be open meetings under the ACT. 00:14:05
Meaning they have to be noticed and. 00:14:08
Held in a more formal way. And then the other thing I've been asked about is. 00:14:10
Council member participation in social media, either in posts in threads and groups. 00:14:15
And social media conversations about topics relative to. 00:14:21
City business and council business. 00:14:25
So I'm going to go through the next few slides. I want to give you the excerpts from the Open and Public Meetings Act, and I think 00:14:28
you'll see as we go through the excerpts that. 00:14:32
While ideally a statute would be detailed enough to give us answers on every particular scenario. 00:14:37
This statute is not. 00:14:43
And so you have to read. 00:14:45
The purpose of the statute and then make your best effort in interpreting. 00:14:47
What they mean and I want before I go through the excerpts to at least. 00:14:53
Help you understand the process I went through when I considered the questions. 00:14:58
My job as the city attorney is to advise you all. 00:15:03
And to help you make. 00:15:06
Good decisions and to help you behave in a way. 00:15:09
That can keep you out of legal trouble. 00:15:12
My job is not to make those decisions for you. 00:15:15
And. 00:15:19
I always try to respect the role of the Council in making choices and in making decisions, so I'll try as I present this to. 00:15:20
Respect that role in that. 00:15:26
I'll show you what I think the statute says. 00:15:29
Where there's bright line rules, I'll tell you what they are. Where there's not bright line rules and there's room for 00:15:32
interpretation, I'll tell you. 00:15:35
What is the safe side of that Gray line? 00:15:39
And then within that Gray area. 00:15:41
You know you may choose to. 00:15:44
Behave as you feel appropriate given. 00:15:47
Kind of the risks and the circumstances in your constituent needs. 00:15:51
So I went through the statute, I went through the case law, and then I went through the legislative history. 00:15:55
For the different sections of the statute, and I'll talk through a little bit of those legislative changes because they do matter. 00:16:00
Here in the case law and what it says. 00:16:06
And then? 00:16:09
A lot of the questions that were put to me in a way of. 00:16:10
Well, is your interpretation of the statute consistent with that of other city attorneys in the state? 00:16:14
I didn't know the answer to that and SO. 00:16:20
There is a monthly meeting. 00:16:22
Of city attorneys through the Municipal Attorneys Association in the state, and that happened to be yesterday. 00:16:24
And so I participated in that meeting and they do a general Q&A of. 00:16:30
Does anybody have issues? And then we can talk through them as a group and see if our interpretations are consistent. 00:16:34
And so I put these questions to the group. 00:16:40
To see where they land on it and I'll talk at the end a little bit of. 00:16:43
The feedback that I got from. 00:16:48
Other city attorneys and. 00:16:50
I'm not going to name. 00:16:51
Names of the attorneys and the cities because it's an informal setting, but. 00:16:53
I consulted with those who spoke up on this were the. 00:16:58
City attorneys for Mill Creek, for Harriman, for Saint George. 00:17:02
And then for a number or for Sandy City. 00:17:07
And then for a number of smaller cities and towns within the state. 00:17:11
So let's walk through. 00:17:15
The statute itself. 00:17:17
Grandma has a public policy or not Grandma. They're open to public meetings. Act. 00:17:20
And the policy of the Open and Public Meetings Act is that city councils take their actions openly. 00:17:24
And conduct their deliberations openly, and actions and deliberations you'll see come up frequently throughout the statute. 00:17:30
The courts, when they have. 00:17:38
Handled Open and Public Meetings Act cases have said. 00:17:41
That because this is the statutory intent. 00:17:45
They therefore read that into interpreting the statute, and to the extent there are exceptions within the statute, the courts 00:17:49
construe those exceptions strictly. 00:17:54
Which is. 00:18:00
The highest standard they can give to. 00:18:01
Statutory construction. 00:18:04
There is a definition of the act of meeting. 00:18:06
It means a public body, which the City Council is, with a quorum present. 00:18:09
That is convened by somebody who has authority to convene the public body. 00:18:14
Following the process by law. 00:18:19
And then you'll see three things within the purposes, and these will sound familiar. 00:18:21
To receive public comment, to deliberate and to take action. 00:18:26
On matters relevant to. 00:18:30
The work of the City Council. 00:18:32
A meeting must be open to the public. 00:18:36
Unless it's closed and an open meeting. 00:18:40
Rules associated with it, I'm not going to go through those line by line, but you know what they are there. It's the noticing 00:18:43
keeping of minutes. 00:18:47
Allowing for the public to be present, to participate, to know about the issues that will be decided upon. 00:18:52
There is a section in the statute that speaks to electronic messages while a public body is in a public meeting. 00:18:59
And what it says is, nothing in this chapter may be construed to restrict a member of a public body from transmitting an 00:19:08
electronic message to other members of the public body. 00:19:12
At a time when the public body is not convened in a meeting. 00:19:17
Now, what's absent from this? 00:19:22
It doesn't tell us about quorum requirements, so it doesn't make clear whether it's. 00:19:24
Not restricting messages from 1 member of the public body to another member of the public body. 00:19:29
Or whether those messages can be to all members of the public body. 00:19:35
It does very clearly restrict. 00:19:39
Messages while you were in a public meeting. 00:19:42
So while you're in a meeting, if you're to be sending text messages to each other saying. 00:19:45
Hey, how are you going to vote on this or what do you think about that? 00:19:50
That would be clearly inappropriate under the statute, and I could point you to a few different examples that have been in the 00:19:53
news over the last few years. 00:19:57
Just for playing with her. Are you saying the body or just one one by one? 00:20:01
Individually, like 1 council member. This makes it pretty clear that it's a member of the public body to other members of the 00:20:07
public body. 00:20:11
At a time when you're convened at a meeting, so this would be. 00:20:16
It's it's bright line rule prohibited for any of you. 00:20:20
To send an electronic message to any other of you. 00:20:25
While you're in a public meeting. 00:20:29
I think there are. I didn't know that so. 00:20:32
It's anyway, so that's that part of the rule. 00:20:34
There also is. 00:20:39
Clearly stated in the law that a quorum may not act together outside of a meeting. 00:20:41
In a concerted or deliberate way to predetermine an action to be taken by the public body at a meeting on a relevant matter. 00:20:46
So you all cannot. 00:20:54
Communicate together as a quorum. 00:20:56
To decide something before you come into the public meeting. 00:20:59
And then have your public vote in your public discussion. Be perfunctory. 00:21:03
Because you have already decided that matter. 00:21:08
So those yes please. 00:21:11
So. 00:21:14
To me that that is a bright line. 00:21:16
Prohibition that we can't talk as a body, correct, But that does not prohibit. 00:21:19
Me talking individually with Sarah and then we individually talking with Marty and with the mayor and with Jake. 00:21:25
I read that the same way you do. 00:21:32
Yes. 00:21:35
What the votes going to be ahead of time? 00:21:36
Yeah, you can. I can directly ask. 00:21:39
Hey, here's an issue that we're going to talk about. 00:21:42
Sarah, how are you gonna vote on that? 00:21:45
There's nobody else. It's not a quorum. 00:21:47
I'm trying, I'm trying to get that I read it that way too, that, you know, one off or two up. 00:21:49
I would say one-on-one conversations. 00:21:56
Would be OK. 00:21:59
With A5 member council, the moment you're having a conversation with two other people then you do have a quorum. 00:22:01
As part of that conversation. So it's not a quorum, it's not all of you. It would be 3 of you. 00:22:07
But yes, the one off conversations of. 00:22:12
You know, if you were to phone Sarah or message Sarah and say how do you understand this issue and. 00:22:16
How do you intend to vote or? 00:22:21
What are you thinking here? 00:22:23
I believe the ACT allows for. 00:22:26
That kind of communication. 00:22:28
This is where. 00:22:31
There are a few bright lines in the ordinance or in the statute. There are. 00:22:32
Some areas where there's room for interpretation. So let's talk through that's that's kind of the framework of what's in the 00:22:37
statute. 00:22:40
I'd like to talk through what. 00:22:45
I discussed with the other city attorneys. 00:22:47
And where there's room for some advice and some consultation. 00:22:50
On how you. 00:22:56
Behave. 00:22:57
When I spoke with the city attorneys about social media. 00:22:59
Conversations the the context was. 00:23:03
What if there are social media conversations on social media? 00:23:07
Either discussion on a post. 00:23:10
Likes on a post. 00:23:13
A thread, a private or a public forum or group. 00:23:16
How do you advise members of your council to behave via the Open and Public Meetings Act? 00:23:20
I have always. 00:23:26
Instructed councils in my training where there's not a bright line rule. 00:23:28
The safe side of the Gray line is. 00:23:33
Don't engage in those conversations on social media if. 00:23:37
A quorum of the council is present. 00:23:42
Now, how do you determine whether a quorum of the council is present? It's different on every platform. It's really hard to tell. 00:23:45
If you're all viewing it as a violation, I would say probably not. 00:23:51
If you're all communicating on a thread together, is it a violation? I would say probably so. 00:23:55
And. 00:24:02
Within those two boundaries, I think you do have. 00:24:04
Gray area where there's some room for interpretation and it. 00:24:08
It's difficult to tell whether it would be a violation of the ACT or not. 00:24:11
Historically. 00:24:15
The Open and Public Meetings Act did have a definition of electronic communication. 00:24:17
It's gone through since 2011 a number of different legislative changes. 00:24:22
Relative to electronic meetings. 00:24:28
Some of that has been the statute trying to keep pace with changes in technology. 00:24:30
Some of it has, and a lot of it has been. 00:24:36
Trying to keep up with How do Zoom meetings or Teams meetings or electronic meetings work for city councils? 00:24:40
And there was a time during COVID when a lot of electronic meetings were required. 00:24:48
And the law became quite flexible on when and how you could hold those meetings. 00:24:54
And its sense has swung back the other way. And it allows electronic meanings, but only. 00:24:59
It allows you all to participate in the meetings electronically, but you have to host them. 00:25:04
And anchor location where the public can attend and view and be part of the meeting. 00:25:10
In person it doesn't allow for 100% remote meetings like it used to. 00:25:14
But one of the things that happened when the statute introduced these electronic meetings. 00:25:19
Is that where it previously had a definition for electronic communication? 00:25:25
That was a little bit more detailed and included things like social media posts, not just text and e-mail. 00:25:30
It has removed that definition and that doesn't exist anymore. 00:25:36
And so when I was visiting with the other lawyers on it, there was a pretty near unanimous view that the safe space on the Open 00:25:41
and Public Meetings Act would be. 00:25:46
Not to engage in social media. 00:25:51
Discussion. 00:25:54
And again, I'm going to go back to the slide of. 00:25:56
Deliberations is the phrase that you see throughout. 00:26:00
And you have to apply some judgment as to when does discussion become deliberation. 00:26:03
And I think it can fairly easily become that. 00:26:10
And that's why I and so many other city attorneys advise their councils that the safest way to behave is don't engage. 00:26:14
If a quorum of the Council is going to be present. 00:26:21
On something. 00:26:24
The but everybody pretty much acknowledges that. 00:26:26
There's room for interpretation, and I think we've talked through the wrinkles in the law. 00:26:31
That get at that. 00:26:36
So the other question that I've been asked is. 00:26:37
How does the opening Public Meetings Act relate to gatherings? 00:26:41
Things like constituent meetings, town halls, planning meetings. 00:26:45
Or committee meetings of the Council. 00:26:49
Where you by definition don't have a quorum present. 00:26:51
But certain members of the public may wish to participate in those kinds of meetings, but they're not a meeting where you're. 00:26:56
Deliberating on something. It's more a meeting where well. 00:27:02
They may be a little bit. 00:27:06
So. 00:27:08
I want to borrow a recent example. 00:27:09
On the code of conduct, the mayor. 00:27:12
The Council established a committee to do that work and they assigned that committee. 00:27:14
To be to have the council members of the committee. 00:27:20
Be Councilmember Clausen and Councilmember Holdaway. 00:27:25
And both of you then had. 00:27:28
Discussions with. 00:27:31
People in the community, with myself, with staff. 00:27:33
Maybe with other members of the Council. 00:27:37
But never were those discussions a quorum of the council. 00:27:39
And also never were those discussions. 00:27:43
A publicly noticed meeting that had all of the formality and the strictures and the expense. 00:27:47
That come with public meetings. 00:27:52
They're allowed under the law. 00:27:54
But the expectation, I think, that the Open and Public Meetings Act places on that kind of allowance is. 00:27:57
That you. 00:28:04
Do not have authority to take action. 00:28:05
On behalf of the Council, so you serve the function of going out. 00:28:08
Doing some of that liaison gathering input. 00:28:13
But the final decision and the discussion on the final decision is brought back to the full council. 00:28:16
And you? 00:28:21
Have that discussion and you make that decision. 00:28:23
In an open meeting. 00:28:26
That's properly noticed and has everything else. 00:28:28
You have similar things that happen. 00:28:30
When you have town hall meetings or if you're planning a project. 00:28:33
And they're not always the same. 00:28:38
Because sometimes a project effects one neighborhood more than another. 00:28:40
And so you may have, you may want to hold those meetings in the neighborhood that's affected. 00:28:44
You're not a City Council that has council districts. 00:28:48
You know, but often. 00:28:51
In cities that do have council districts, they'll try to when they're planning a big project or doing a general plan update. 00:28:53
They'll make an effort to hold public meetings in each of the different council districts. 00:29:00
And the expectation when they do that is that. 00:29:06
The council members will respect. 00:29:09
The ability of. 00:29:12
Each of them. 00:29:15
Although separately to hold these meetings or participate in these meetings. 00:29:17
And it can sometimes be difficult if all members of the Council want to be at these meetings. 00:29:23
And also taking into account that every time you hold an open, public, formal City Council meeting, you have a really big expense 00:29:30
and formality associated with it that can make it. 00:29:35
Much more difficult for you to do your work. 00:29:40
I think it's a lot more efficient and helpful if you have committees or have some of these meetings where you can. 00:29:43
Gather information, discuss things, work on things. Edit, revise. 00:29:49
And then bring it back to the Council. 00:29:53
To decide. 00:29:56
So this is. 00:29:57
Not something that the ACT tells you exactly how you have to do it. 00:29:59
Or what you have to do it, but most councils find a way to respect each other's. 00:30:04
Roles and when you have. 00:30:08
Need to hold. 00:30:10
Town halls are planning meetings in different locations then. 00:30:12
There's informal discussion among the Council or direction by the council. 00:30:16
You know directly that we're going to have X number of meetings and. 00:30:21
You'll go to this one and you'll go to that one and I'll go to the third. 00:30:24
And then everybody. 00:30:28
Just acts respectfully towards each other's role. 00:30:30
To allow those who've been assigned or who have organized the meetings to be present. 00:30:34
And then when it comes their turn. 00:30:39
You know to be there. 00:30:41
Then you get an additional wrinkle of. 00:30:42
Councils aren't always unanimous. 00:30:45
And that's a function of. 00:30:47
A democratic government and it will happen and fine. 00:30:50
You'll take your decisions. You'll have. 00:30:54
Majority who vote for something and a minority that doesn't. 00:30:57
When you're unanimous, it's easy, because then you're all marching to the same thing. But what about when? 00:31:02
You're going to the council. 00:31:07
As a majority, but not unanimously. 00:31:10
Votes to do something. Who then has the right to? 00:31:13
Attend, say, a town hall or a planning meeting. 00:31:17
That's on that topic. 00:31:21
And that's where it gets a little bit tricky and I think you have to fall back on. 00:31:23
What are the what are the authorities within the different members of the City Council so. 00:31:28
On A5 member council, the mayor is a voting member of the council, but also is the. 00:31:33
Chief executive of the city by statute. 00:31:39
And all of the employees of the city. 00:31:42
Report through that line of authority. 00:31:45
And so the mayor does have different. 00:31:48
Rights than the rest of you as it relates to directing staff work and maybe. 00:31:50
Organizing the kinds of executive function. 00:31:56
Meetings that would occur on topics, even if those topics have to return to the Council at some point for action. 00:32:00
And the city manager working. 00:32:06
For you all and reporting to the mayor. 00:32:09
Plays a similar role in trying to figure out. 00:32:12
How to allocate staff resources? What meetings require staff resources? And there's some judgment to be applied there. 00:32:15
And it may not always appear fair to. 00:32:22
Minority voting. 00:32:27
Member of the Council if the majority voted to take an action and the meetings are being held in furtherance of that action. 00:32:28
And then you all play a role because if you choose to intervene as a body. 00:32:37
And vote to give specific instructions on a project about how the outreach should happen or what resources should be applied to 00:32:44
it. 00:32:48
You certainly have that. 00:32:53
Authority as members of the City Council. 00:32:55
But you don't have that authority individually. You have that authority as. 00:32:58
Individual members of the Council. 00:33:02
Now, how does it relate to the Open and Public Meetings Act? It only relates to that that. 00:33:04
If you're holding these kinds of gatherings that are not formal meetings. 00:33:09
Within the act. 00:33:14
Then you you're not allowed to do them if you have a quorum present, and so you do have to divide a little bit. 00:33:15
And assign some work and handle it in that way otherwise. 00:33:21
They have to become formal meetings and one of the difficulties of doing a formal meeting on. 00:33:25
Events where you're not taking action as a council is. 00:33:32
You want to avoid the expense right of having and I recognize I'm part of that expense right of having. 00:33:35
Staff at your meetings and having your. 00:33:42
City recorder of the meetings and. 00:33:45
Not being able to use this room for other purposes because you have to. 00:33:47
Set it aside to be used for the council meeting and so. 00:33:52
There's a little bit of an art to figure out, you know what's appropriate and how you slice those things. 00:33:55
So that's what I had put together and prepared. 00:34:01
And I think. 00:34:04
That advice, I've proved it by other city attorneys and I think the read that I just presented is pretty consistent with how. 00:34:05
That's trained throughout the state, recognizing, you know. 00:34:12
Pockets of Gray area within the statute where you have to. 00:34:16
Interpret it and. 00:34:19
My job as a city attorney is to tell you where the safe space is. 00:34:21
You know, and where you can behave without inviting. 00:34:25
Any threat of litigation or any threat of having your actions invalidated. 00:34:28
Because you violated the ACT, but. 00:34:33
You know, there's room, there's room to interpret it. 00:34:35
I just want to can I do a point of order on that There's been twice where. 00:34:38
We've done either the parking or even yesterday's City Council meeting. Where? 00:34:43
It's a meeting of the City Council. 00:34:50
Where you know and it's their assignment, where obviously. 00:34:53
Minority vote where I will say, hey, I want to be there. 00:34:59
I understand that I. 00:35:03
Diet cannot force a public meeting. However, from what I'm understanding, what you're saying is is that. 00:35:05
If we're not in agreeance on how it is. 00:35:11
For that meeting to push forward. 00:35:15
The mayor could override and there could be a public vote. 00:35:17
But there would need to be a vote in order for that to happen is what you're saying? 00:35:20
And the mayor controls that. 00:35:25
Tonight, can I ask you to break your question up there? There were a lot of layers to that and I want to be sure I. 00:35:27
Yeah. So like sometimes there's a disagreement on. 00:35:33
Who should be able to go to the meeting to be able to like yesterday we had a town hall. 00:35:36
The City Hall, right? 00:35:41
I want to be there. 00:35:43
Represent my constituents. I want to hear from staff. 00:35:44
City's authorized that we put on social media if we're doing it. 00:35:47
There's no vote taking place, it just happens. 00:35:52
And I understand that I could. 00:35:56
Be overruled. 00:35:59
But I'm not even in the vote, so like. 00:36:00
If I object to like, I hear about a meeting. 00:36:03
From a committee. 00:36:07
And it's going to be a public facing meeting with staff. 00:36:08
I should have the ability to say hey. 00:36:12
Hold on here. I would like to be there and at which point? 00:36:15
The mayor could override that and we would just hold a public vote. 00:36:18
And they could push forward with that committee. 00:36:22
But they couldn't block me from being there. 00:36:25
Unless the vote. 00:36:27
Unless the council came and voted and said. 00:36:29
Hey, we're not going to do a public meeting. 00:36:31
We're going to push forward with just the two of you and then therefore they could block me from the public facing meeting. Well, 00:36:33
let me let me try to. 00:36:37
I'm going to try to break that up into parts and then. 00:36:42
You can ask follow up questions if I don't address at all. 00:36:45
I'm going to try in my answer not to make this specific to individual members on the Council and where you might. 00:36:49
What your opinions might be on certain items. 00:36:57
All right, I. 00:37:00
My advice to you would be. 00:37:02
To find a collaborative space where you can allow for council members. 00:37:04
To do work on meetings that might involve the public. 00:37:11
Without feeling like each of you have to insert yourselves in everyone of those meetings. 00:37:16
And I suggest that just as a point of. 00:37:22
Healthy municipal governance. Now, does that mean you're doing things in secret? No, I don't think it does. I think it just means 00:37:28
you're dividing the work up. 00:37:32
That there's only 5 of you. There's a lot of work to be done in the city. 00:37:37
And So what? 00:37:41
Healthy city council's do, in my view is. 00:37:43
They'll assign and delegate that work and then the other members of the Council will respect that delegation, but they also will 00:37:46
expect. 00:37:50
Some accountability in the form of a report back to the Council. 00:37:54
You're going to see that later today. When? 00:37:58
You and Councilmember Clausen give a report on the code of conduct and on the work that you've done on that, because that that is 00:38:00
a piece that you've taken and done. 00:38:04
Independent of other council members. 00:38:09
Now, could you, as a council member, throw a wrench in city business by. 00:38:11
Trying to force yourself into every meeting that involves other council members. 00:38:17
I suppose you could. 00:38:22
Do I like that practice? Would I advise that you do that? 00:38:23
No, I don't. 00:38:28
I don't think long term it helps because it. 00:38:30
It hurts the collaboration among the council and it hurts your ability to do business, but if you were to show up. 00:38:33
And there were already 2 council members there. 00:38:40
Your options are. 00:38:43
To have one council member. 00:38:45
Disengage and leave that meeting. 00:38:47
So that you don't have a quorum present. 00:38:50
Or if everybody refuses to leave. 00:38:52
Then you would not be able to hold the meeting. 00:38:56
Because it wouldn't have been. 00:38:59
Unnoticed public meeting and you would have a quorum of the council there. 00:39:01
So you are going to have to figure out a way among yourselves. 00:39:05
To do the work of the city. 00:39:10
In in those moments in ways where? 00:39:14
It doesn't make sense for the full council to be present to do it. 00:39:17
And respect the fact that you may not attend every function. 00:39:21
Because others are there. 00:39:26
But also figure out. 00:39:28
You know, how do you want to make those assignments? How do you want to make those choices? 00:39:30
You know, it could be that you come back to the council and say. 00:39:34
This is a matter. This is a. 00:39:38
Topic that's really important to me. I want to be there at future meetings for this. 00:39:40
Can the Council allow me to participate? 00:39:44
And then? 00:39:47
I think you'd have to get a vote of the council that would say, you know, yes or no. 00:39:49
Otherwise, it would be up to the organizer of a particular gathering to figure out. 00:39:54
Who makes sense to be there? 00:40:00
What is the purpose of the meeting? 00:40:03
What is it in furtherance of? 00:40:05
And then? 00:40:07
You know, it may be the case that. 00:40:09
Somebody is excluded so that it. 00:40:12
Doesn't then become a public meeting, and that work can happen. 00:40:15
So I. 00:40:19
I didn't tell you what to do because I don't think that's my role, but those are the things I would think about. No, I agree with 00:40:20
your. 00:40:23
Assessment, like we definitely want to learn to work together or in most cases like say, hey, that's a great town hall. 00:40:27
I think, you know, in, in, in consultation that sometimes like, well, we have all the city staff, they're there to go talk. 00:40:35
Can I can my views be expressed or? 00:40:42
Or could instead of an hour long meeting. 00:40:46
You could leave for 1/2 hour and then I could come in for the next half hour. 00:40:50
And so therefore citizens or constituents that it would be negotiated. But I don't, I don't think anyone wants to put a wrench in 00:40:54
being. 00:40:58
Difficult in holding good decorum. 00:41:04
But at the same rate it. 00:41:08
What what I don't want is that. 00:41:10
Just hey the. 00:41:14
I don't have the ability to be in the meeting if it is something that you know, hey, I've got to be there. 00:41:16
Sending a meeting saying hey, you were using city staff and we're doing something public facing. 00:41:23
And the two of us are, you know, I just don't think that's good. So I think that's great because then it's like, hey, let's send a 00:41:29
meeting. 00:41:32
I'm wanting to be a part of this. How can I? And then negotiating like. 00:41:35
Because I've seen this at Utah County, like they there's had some big arguments in Utah County recently. 00:41:41
Where they will go? OK, the two of us are gonna talk and then half are gonna leave. 00:41:45
And then one steps out and they kind of negotiate who and then the public gets. 00:41:49
Like both sides of the jail issue, That's when I thought. 00:41:54
I think that. 00:41:58
That that helps, but it's also asking. 00:41:59
And in many cases, it's just more courtesy. 00:42:03
Of hey, we're going to be using. 00:42:07
Public resources. 00:42:10
You know to do a public facing meeting, do you? 00:42:11
The two of us, Are you fine with that? And what would you want? 00:42:14
Done in that. 00:42:17
And I think so we can do things informal. 00:42:18
Up until the point like there's a disagreement, right? And then what we do just send an e-mail and say, hey. 00:42:22
How can I be a part of this? 00:42:27
Well, yeah, I think you all will have to negotiate. 00:42:29
You know what you want to do and what makes sense given the circumstance. 00:42:32
I the one thing I think is tricky but maybe not healthy as if. 00:42:37
Let's say you decide to put a particular amenity in a park and there's an argument over. 00:42:42
Is it a basketball court, a baseball diamond, or pickleball? 00:42:47
And let's say I'm on the council and. 00:42:51
I really hate. 00:42:55
Pickleball because it's so noisy. 00:42:56
And I really, really love basketball because I'm tall. 00:42:59
And so that's what I want. 00:43:03
I fight and scratch and claw for it and do everything I can but. 00:43:05
You all have constituents that absolutely love pickleball and that's what ends up being funded. 00:43:09
I don't think it's right once you begin doing meetings to plan what those courts look like. You know, what color they are, how 00:43:15
they're oriented, what the distance is from homes. 00:43:20
You know, through the details of those. 00:43:25
For the council to say. 00:43:28
Well, I should also get a counter meeting of. 00:43:30
Why didn't the city fund the basketball court? 00:43:36
I can say that on my own, but I don't think that is a good use of city resources for me to demand that for every pickleball 00:43:39
meeting there be a basketball meeting. 00:43:44
Because the action of the Council was. 00:43:49
Pickleball. 00:43:52
Right, and you will have things as a council where? 00:43:53
You vote against something. 00:43:56
The rest of the Council votes for something. 00:43:58
And then your city manager has to begin holding. 00:44:01
Outward facing events to plan that. 00:44:06
You want to meet with neighbors and make sure that your impacts are going to be reduced against them. You're going to have to 00:44:08
figure out. 00:44:12
Traffic and hours and. 00:44:16
All these different things that will require meetings. 00:44:18
Outside of city government, with constituents, with residents, with contractors. 00:44:22
And if those meetings are in furtherance of something that you didn't vote for? 00:44:28
They may have to happen. 00:44:33
Without your participation. 00:44:35
But when there are actions that need to come to the City Council for. 00:44:38
Action of the body. 00:44:42
That must be done in an open meeting. 00:44:45
And none of those actions can be taken in these. 00:44:47
Smaller group meetings. 00:44:50
But the shape of what all that looks like? 00:44:52
You all are going to have to figure out. 00:44:55
And I think that's fair because like I, I can completely understand like on the town hall thing last night. 00:44:57
Where I really wanted to be there and just. 00:45:03
You know, represent. 00:45:05
My constituents. 00:45:06
You know, we can then negotiate and say, hey, look, I'll be there for half or not. 00:45:08
But at the end of the day, we want to be. 00:45:12
Amicable and have good decorum. 00:45:15
Work together. 00:45:18
And try and find it without having to have some sort of official vote, right? Of like who's there and who's not. 00:45:19
But at the end of the day, if we can't find an agreement. 00:45:26
There's at least has to be a. 00:45:29
Take you or that minority person got outvoted and so therefore. 00:45:31
And then there needs to be a vote of. 00:45:35
We're doing this town hall with just these two people, and I'm OK with that. And I have a comment really quick. 00:45:38
In response to you, I think they're refusing stated that I want to restate for the Council and then I want to carry the 00:45:43
conversation forward because we're spending a lot of time on this so. 00:45:48
Because it feels like you're coming to a place where you're asking a question from the council. 00:45:53
So I want to talk about a few things. 00:45:59
The number one thing was to find collaborate. 00:46:02
A collaborative space. I thought that was a really important thing. 00:46:05
In these regards. 00:46:10
It really there are some meetings. 00:46:12
Where we put people into subcommittees, where you hold opportunities to meet with people. 00:46:15
On things and you share your opinions with them and it's not necessarily going to be anything that I agree with. 00:46:22
Or that any of the Council here agrees with in general, and we'll just say. 00:46:29
Across the board. 00:46:35
But you go and you meet with these people, with the you in general counsel meets with these people to learn more and to come back 00:46:37
and present. And we're going to see that with the code of conduct tonight. You and Brett had a lot of meetings with people that 00:46:42
you guys have selected and you went and talked to them. 00:46:47
I saw some of the commentary as people emailed me and I was able to make some informed decisions based on what they said to me, 00:46:53
but I didn't sit in any of those meetings. 00:46:57
What I did do though? 00:47:02
Was I read through your notes? 00:47:04
I read through the code of conduct that you did present. You will be able to make a report back to me, which was the 00:47:07
accountability aspect. That was the second point that Jamie brought up, which is the report back. 00:47:12
And even though I couldn't be there. 00:47:18
And express my views on everything. 00:47:20
And direct my leadership from my constituents on that, what I will do tonight. 00:47:22
Is I will represent the constituents of the city that I represent, which is all of them. 00:47:29
And I will vote based off of what I think is good for all of the residents and I will push back on the policy that I think is good 00:47:34
or bad that you worked on. And so as you went to those meetings, I didn't try to participate in them. 00:47:40
And I stayed out of those meetings and I waited for your reports back, and when you guys came and told me you needed longer, you 00:47:47
needed to reassess them. 00:47:51
We gave you the space and time to be able to do that. 00:47:56
Now, was there ever a thought in my mind that maybe you were representing things in a way that I would not do? Absolutely. We. 00:47:59
We do not have the same mind. 00:48:08
There is not a person on this Council that would represent me the way that I would represent me. 00:48:10
Or represent my representation of the people of Vineyard the way that I would do it. 00:48:16
But we respect each other and then we come back and we have the deliberations and the discussions here on this table. 00:48:22
Another example is when you guys had a parking meeting, you and Sarah were there. There are several people that want to discuss 00:48:28
parking. I can tell you that both of you had very different perspectives when you were there, but what it did was it made it so 00:48:33
none of the rest of us could attend those meetings. 00:48:37
And then Sarah and Brett had a meeting. Now what I have appreciated going and talking about my views on the town hall. Probably I 00:48:43
would like to go and actually hear what the people are saying, but I trust that. 00:48:48
Sarah and Brett. 00:48:55
I wanted to go and figure this out because they're sitting in a subcommittee for the architecture and the design, and they are 00:48:56
trying to make meaningful conversations happen with our. 00:49:02
Our citizens so that they can be informed and answer questions as we go through this process so that they could take that back and 00:49:07
they're going to report it and our jobs. 00:49:12
Are to provide that collaborative space for us to go and divide work and get things done. 00:49:17
To come back and hold them accountable for the report back and then to make our decisions before the public and the public square. 00:49:23
And that is how we get educated on the goals. 00:49:30
Now, I'm not saying that if there's ever a time where we are all umm. 00:49:33
In any regard, wanting to be at something, can we always say, can we say, hey, I really want to be at that and if somebody is 00:49:39
like, you know, we're just trying to keep this small right now, but let's plan for something else, I think we can respect that. 00:49:45
I think we want to move away from the number one when it says find collaborative space is. 00:49:51
Saying that somebody is blocking us out of a meeting because I can tell you I. 00:49:57
Varying the code of conduct meetings, whether you would have welcomed me or not. 00:50:02
I never thought that I was being blocked from a meeting, rather I was creating space. 00:50:07
For you to accomplish a task. 00:50:12
At hand. 00:50:14
And I think if we're going to create collaborative space between each other, that we need to start from a space. 00:50:15
Of saying these people have a job that they're trying to accomplish and. 00:50:21
It's not about blocking anybody from it, it's about productivity. 00:50:26
And reporting back and following good governance. 00:50:30
Now, with that being said, Council, I think Jake has gotten to the point where he's saying, hey, sometimes he's going to want to 00:50:34
be at a meeting and there's going to be a time where when he does that, he's going to come. And he asked two questions. Can I open 00:50:39
it up to the public or otherwise can the people open it up to the public, which is you and you guys always have the ability to 00:50:44
make a meeting public if you so choose and vote on it. Sometimes that's not efficient because we can't be at all of each other's 00:50:49
meetings. 00:50:54
And so it's not always going to be the case, but. 00:51:00
I don't see why we can't have that conversation, and I think Jamie was really clear that those are our opportunities. 00:51:02
So in the future, this is just a work session to learn more about how the process works. 00:51:08
But I feel like it's been made. 00:51:13
Clear what your opportunities are. 00:51:16
Are there any questions on that from? 00:51:19
To Council. Sarah Marty. 00:51:21
No, I think. 00:51:24
People who haven't spoken yet and then we'll come back and I just. 00:51:25
Validate and take. I like. 00:51:28
I like the idea of. 00:51:31
If it's a meeting that's really important to multiple council members, I have done that before with Amber where we traded halfway 00:51:33
through and so I'm comfortable with that. I'm also. 00:51:39
I do like the idea of collaborating. 00:51:45
And allowing other council members to fulfill roles. 00:51:48
But I get what you're saying and I I'm open and willing to do that where possible. Yeah. I just think it creates an incredible 00:51:52
culture, like. 00:51:55
Because some of you guys will say, oh, it doesn't really bother, Brett and Jake go do it. Other times they'll say, hey. 00:51:59
I do want to step in here. 00:52:05
And if we respect each other, it's like, you know, I'll step out. You step in for 20 minutes is what I want to hear. I want to say 00:52:07
this. 00:52:10
And then I think I think it. 00:52:13
It respects people's. 00:52:15
You know, constituents that might want you there because there were a lot of constituents that left last night and they were like. 00:52:19
You can't. And I'm like, I can't be there. And I was like, I tried to be there. I want to be there. I want to vote to be there, 00:52:23
but and I also don't want to. 00:52:26
Step on your guys toes. It's like hey, but at the same rate it's like could we switch out an hour? And I felt that way just so you 00:52:29
know, I felt that way with meetings that you have been able to go to with Sarah or. 00:52:35
There's been like invitations where maybe 2 council members have been invited and I might. 00:52:42
Going in. So it's not like something that's just. 00:52:47
You're not the only one that has those concerns. Well, and the other thing is I think there is a time for it and there is a time 00:52:50
when it doesn't make any sense. 00:52:55
And there's also the 4th item that I didn't mention that Jamie brought up, which is the pickleball versus the basketball, which 00:52:59
helps us to spend our. 00:53:04
City resources efficiently and effectively. So can I just mention something? Yeah, thanks. 00:53:08
So. So last night's meeting was in. 00:53:14
Response to things that were said online. 00:53:18
And so I specifically asked for Brett to join me because he had information I didn't. 00:53:20
But Jake, at anytime you can hold your own town hall and invite. 00:53:24
One of the three of us who you feel like would be beneficial to be there, I can't bring the city staff without. 00:53:29
You can still hold a meeting. I didn't know city staff was coming. 00:53:35
Like, I didn't ask a whole lot of other people to come. 00:53:39
So it just worked out well because they had information that was. 00:53:42
Valuable to the citizens. 00:53:47
So you can, you can. 00:53:49
Request to do your own town hall. You and I did them last year. 00:53:50
Remember. But those weren't public meetings. This wasn't a public meeting. 00:53:54
That was a publicly. 00:53:58
It wasn't a public meeting last night. I think what we're getting at is the definition of a public meeting. 00:54:01
Last night's meeting was not. 00:54:06
Recorded, recorded. It was not, oh, I'm right, but it's not subject, right? But I was, I was told like, if you go, then it has to 00:54:08
be a course you can't go. And I was like, so 'cause then it would have to be a publicly notice made. So now, so now and, and, and 00:54:15
I'm even OK with you guys not agreeing and saying, hey, let me push back. We just want Brett and Sarah to be there. 00:54:21
So and I'm like OK. 00:54:28
I disagree. And having the respect for each other, like, OK, let's just throw a quick vote. And then therefore my constituencies 00:54:30
like, hey, he's trying to be there. 00:54:34
And be there for the other side. OK, But let's talk about the two things you're talking about because they're very different. 00:54:38
They're very different. 00:54:41
One is a publicly facing meeting that we could vote on. 00:54:45
Another. 00:54:50
Is a meeting where. 00:54:51
To counsel or collecting themselves and having town halls like the ones that you and Sarah have that she was just stating. 00:54:53
Those are not meetings that we could vote on. Those are things that you had chosen to do to go talk to constituents and you are 00:55:00
not blocking people out. That is you going and creating forums and if you hear about them and you want to be at them, then they. 00:55:07
Having a collaborative space where you guys try to work together and see if you guys are aligning on things. 00:55:14
Is I think the point that Sarah was making, but saying you can always hold your own town halls if you want to. 00:55:20
And make. 00:55:26
Public facing. 00:55:28
Right, without the definition. 00:55:30
Of a public we noticed meeting the difference is is the ability to have Eric and other staff that were there on city resources 00:55:32
right well and I'm I'm I'm glad that we're talking about that because I'm going to mention. 00:55:38
That in in general. 00:55:44
City resources are used to. 00:55:47
Umm, implement. 00:55:53
The things that City Council has voted on. 00:55:54
And so. 00:55:58
Maybe, Eric, that's the point that you wanted to clarify? 00:56:00
I saw your hand go up out of the corner of my eye. Yeah, I just. 00:56:03
We're talking about a number of different meetings. Jamie's example is really appropriate in this case. 00:56:07
Because it is specifically on an issue that the Council has weighed in on. 00:56:12
And has given direction to staff to utilize staff resources for. 00:56:16
Building. 00:56:22
The plans for the architecture and engineering of the City Hall. 00:56:23
When when meetings are being held that are exploratory meetings. 00:56:28
It is very different. Council members can get assigned to a subcommittee. 00:56:32
And we can participate if that's a council decision. 00:56:37
But again, once the Council has made a decision. 00:56:43
If there if, if Brett has really been opposed to something that everybody else voted for. 00:56:47
And council member Clawson decides that he wants to hold a meeting. 00:56:54
To expand. 00:56:58
His disagreement on that particular topic. 00:57:01
And wants staff participation and the use of staff resources and city resources. 00:57:05
As the city manager, I'm going to I'm going to ask my staff not to participate in that because that would not be appropriate. 00:57:10
As it's. 00:57:16
In opposition to what the Council has weighed in on. 00:57:17
The staff of the city. 00:57:21
Respond to. 00:57:23
The voice of the Council. 00:57:24
Not of individual council members, obviously we interact on. 00:57:27
1000 different issues. 00:57:30
But when it comes to. 00:57:32
Council direction. 00:57:34
We implement what the Council has directed us to implement and we do not implement. 00:57:36
What an individual council member. 00:57:42
Has opposed on. 00:57:44
Right, such as such as the resources that went for you and Brett to meet with our? 00:57:45
Legal and work through. 00:57:51
Wording and things like that, and so you were able to have city resources to discuss and talk about those things. 00:57:55
Another meeting was when you and Sarah. 00:58:02
Held the town hall that we all voted on for you guys to establish and cast. Spent the night with you guys at your town hall. 00:58:05
And the rest of us weren't there, but you had city resources. 00:58:14
To talk about parking. 00:58:18
And I'm not sure, forgive me, staff, who else was there, but I do know that cash was. 00:58:20
There, so you did have a town hall where you met with people where it was just two of you where you were able to have city 00:58:25
resources. And I I think that's important because there are distinctions for city resources. Did you want to add something, Jamie? 00:58:32
Not on this topic. I have one other thing I forgot to mention. Oh yeah, go ahead, that's important. Let me just say and I will try 00:58:41
to be respectful and not requiring a vote for when there is a disagreement of. 00:58:47
Me being there, I just want to reserve like hey, I do even if I disagree. 00:58:54
With the City Hall. 00:58:59
To be in that meeting. 00:59:01
I would interject and say I can't be blocked unless you guys vote to therefore block me. Absolutely. If it's a publicly facing 00:59:03
meeting, we're going to offer you those opportunities if it's. 00:59:08
Can I have a clarification? 00:59:15
Yeah, please. And then I'll answer. 00:59:18
When let's and I'm sorry. 00:59:21
If Jake wants to attend a meeting, that. 00:59:23
We've already decided what the two council members were and it wasn't him. 00:59:27
Would that need to go into an open public meeting or is that something because it's not actual legislation? It could just be. 00:59:32
Eric calls the council and finds out what. 00:59:40
They want for that meeting. Yeah, it would be exactly as you described it, and that's how I would have answered. 00:59:43
Jake's question as well, but if. 00:59:49
If a meeting is scheduled between so. 00:59:51
The the. 00:59:54
City Center is a good example, and that's the meaning, apparently, that occurred yesterday afternoon. 00:59:56
Right the. 01:00:02
Council active and directed staff to begin the planning work on that you know to do architecture engineering. 01:00:04
Financing. 01:00:13
Get everything in order so the Council can make a decision on that. 01:00:14
Meetings will be required. 01:00:18
Through that process, that will not be full council meetings. 01:00:20
And sometimes those meetings will occur between 2 council meetings. 01:00:24
I don't know that I would recommend a process where you call a council meeting anytime. 01:00:30
Three or more council members want to attend. 01:00:35
One of those public facing meetings. 01:00:38
It may be that you have to come back to the next council meeting and say. 01:00:41
I was excluded from this meeting because two others were there. 01:00:45
I didn't like that. I'd like to be at those meetings. 01:00:49
Counsel, can we direct staff to? 01:00:52
Allow for those to occur in public meetings and be noticed as such, and then you as a council can talk about that. 01:00:57
But in the interim, in those those weeks in between, I think it would fall to. 01:01:04
The mayor, or to the city manager, or to the committee that had been delegated by the council. 01:01:09
To make the decision of, you know, who would attend and who would in. In talking with the state auditor this week, he just made it 01:01:15
clear that. 01:01:19
If there's an informal vote, there has to be a record of it, and that record needs to be public of what that decision was made. So 01:01:23
however that. 01:01:29
So if it is on the mayor, I don't think that's a council action that we're talking about. It really it's not. 01:01:34
The mayor's the chief executive of the city, and so where are there are meetings scheduled to carry out executive tasks? 01:01:41
Right, but that. 01:01:50
To make those calls. 01:01:54
Correctly, that meeting wasn't voted on to have, it was just I'm having a public meeting. 01:01:55
And then therefore I'm. 01:02:02
But again, I don't it it was. 01:02:03
It's not a problem. 01:02:07
Well, they. Yeah, but it wasn't. 01:02:10
Well, no, but it was, it was, hey, there's some issues of misinformation. Let's schedule 1. So they they scheduled it and I'm 01:02:13
like, OK, great, I'll, I'll come. 01:02:17
And I was like, well, you can't. 01:02:22
Well, that's the thing. 01:02:23
It's not a public meeting. 01:02:25
We have to be careful with how we're defining this. 01:02:27
And it needs to be very clear on this record. 01:02:31
Public meetings are where all of us can attend them. This was not a meeting that was public. 01:02:34
This was a town hall. 01:02:40
That two people held and if you had attended it would have become public. 01:02:41
Because of your presence and who you are and what your responsibilities and obligations are. 01:02:47
I did not attend it because it was not a public meeting. 01:02:52
Marty did not attend it because it was not a public meeting. 01:02:55
That that is a very important distinction. 01:02:59
Additionally. 01:03:02
If there's an informal vote, absolutely it needs to be counted, I think. 01:03:04
Another important part of that is not everything that happens that spurs a decision. 01:03:09
Takes a vote, which I think Jamie articulated, but in the case of the auditor that you were talking about. 01:03:17
Say a vote to get something on an agenda. It does not happen by a vote, it happens by engagement. 01:03:24
And so engagement wouldn't be counted the same way. 01:03:32
If you engage me. 01:03:36
A state auditor was very clear with us this week, Yes, and I read it and and if you engaged me according to Title 3. 01:03:38
And you are one vote to get something on the agenda. But Title 3 requires two people to engage me to get something on the agenda. 01:03:45
And there are no two people. 01:03:53
Then the record shows one person, right? That record has to be made public, though, so that record is not we. We've never made 01:03:55
public the denials on. There's no denial. 01:04:00
There was no. 01:04:06
Anything. Umm. 01:04:07
And maybe I'm misunderstanding and you can clarify the records. 01:04:09
You forwarded it to me right before the meeting. The version I got was not signed and was labeled draft, so I don't know. 01:04:15
Right, we'll think about the authorship. 01:04:23
But one of the topics in it was. 01:04:26
The current city ordinance about how to get things on the agenda and what I understood there's the suggestion in the letter to be 01:04:29
was that. 01:04:33
Maybe that process instead of being an e-mail or. 01:04:38
A written process that it be some kind of a process within a public meeting. 01:04:41
The public has to know that it was denied. 01:04:47
I think that could work out. 01:04:51
If the council wants to handle it in that way, we could figure out a process. I don't, I don't know that that's a real. 01:04:53
Burden, especially if it's in draft, that would probably be something. Yeah, I have it again. I got the letter 5 minutes before 01:05:00
the meeting so I really. 01:05:04
Am not prepared to type the death on the topic but. 01:05:09
The one other thing I do want to mention on social media, just because it is an important consideration, we've talked about this 01:05:13
in the context of Open and Public Meetings Act. 01:05:17
There are other. 01:05:23
Laws that come to bear on social media in a in an important one is the 1st Amendment. 01:05:25
And we did a training a few months ago on a recent Supreme Court 2, recent Supreme Court decisions that dealt with social media 01:05:30
and public officials. 01:05:34
And I just want to be sure that you all have the warning that. 01:05:39
You are public officials. 01:05:43
You're now elected. 01:05:45
Public officials, your City Council members and when you speak on city on social media. 01:05:47
Unless you state that you are speaking in your individual capacity and not. 01:05:52
As a member of the City Council. 01:05:58
The perception, both by the public and the interpretation by the courts will be. 01:06:00
That you're acting in your official capacity. 01:06:06
And if the people you interact with are moderated? 01:06:09
Or are only admitted to a closed group. 01:06:14
Or can only access that communication through a closed group. 01:06:18
If folks are excluded, they may have the right to sue the city to force their inclusion in those conversations. So just please be 01:06:23
mindful of that. If you need direction on it, call me. 01:06:29
Yeah, but the the way I read those cases, you do have to be really explicit. 01:06:36
If you wish to communicate and not have it be considered you. 01:06:42
Communicating in your community. 01:06:47
Do you know how often those reminders are? Because I have a social Media Group that's for campaign purposes only. Would you say 01:06:49
like a biweekly, A monthly? 01:06:53
How often do I need to disclose? I wish the courts gave us that specific. I disclose it when I when they come in. I would be, I 01:06:58
would be sure. 01:07:02
I mean, my advice to you would be. 01:07:07
Most social media platforms have some place where you can. 01:07:09
Disclose identify yourself. So you know usually right you'll see people that'll say, you know like. 01:07:13
Husband, father, engineer kind of a thing and you can put in that. 01:07:21
You know I am a member of the City Council, but the things I post here are my own. But then. 01:07:26
Be warned that if at any point in time you make a post, even if you have that disclaimer and the post says. 01:07:33
For example. 01:07:40
The city is building a new City Hall and we need input about what it looks like and what things are at that facility. 01:07:42
The moment you do that you're again putting on a council members hat. 01:07:51
And it will be perceived that you are acting on behalf of the city as a city official. 01:07:55
And so you would in that post have to also make clear. 01:08:01
You know, I'm not asking this as a council member, I just am curious, what do people want this to be? 01:08:06
That's smart. You put it at the end of every. 01:08:14
I'm at yeah. 01:08:16
You know I. 01:08:17
You can't say one thing and have it be doing something else. 01:08:19
So good distinction. 01:08:24
OK, great. We're going to go ahead and move on from now. I hope your questions were answered. Looks like there's a lot of things 01:08:27
to work through. I'll go ahead and make sure I write those notes down. 01:08:32
On some of them and we'll see where we can get to. 01:08:37
On your requests. 01:08:40
This is now time for public comments. Can you raise your hand if you're going to make a public comment tonight? 01:08:42
Hey I have one. 01:08:48
Terry, you're just walking in, but I just asked if anybody's going to make a public comment tonight. 01:08:51
No. OK, come on up. 01:08:56
If this is the time to address us on things that are not on the agenda. 01:08:59
Russell Evans from The Villains. 01:09:07
This kind of was on the agenda, but I think I just want to give my thoughts. 01:09:09
I appreciate very much merophobia. You're a tribute to Don Oberson. 01:09:13
He and his wife were members of the Villas Live in the Villas. 01:09:17
And justice, we're really going to miss them. 01:09:22
Donna was serving on our HLA board. 01:09:25
The vice president. 01:09:28
He was elected. 01:09:30
He was also over the designer view function of the board. 01:09:31
And you just had all kinds of expertise. 01:09:37
And he also had Vineyard history, which you are well aware. 01:09:39
And. 01:09:43
He and his wife, Cory, were also serving. 01:09:45
As family service history family history mystery service missionaries up in Lehigh. 01:09:47
And he loved doing that. 01:09:52
But I just he will be sorely missed. 01:09:55
And he's more than didn't want to miss this opportunity to do that. 01:09:57
To say how much. 01:10:00
Done what a good person Don is and he will miss and thank you. Wonderful tribute to Don. Thank you so much. 01:10:02
All right, we'll go ahead and move in, the mayor council member reports. 01:10:09
I'll start with. 01:10:12
Sarah. 01:10:14
Do you have anything today, Sarah? 01:10:18
Umm, well just to talk a little bit more about last night's meeting. We had a good a good turn out and lots of questions were 01:10:21
answered. 01:10:25
So I think I think it turned out well. 01:10:29
I I would like to. 01:10:33
I mentioned that quite a few people we'd like to do it once a month. 01:10:35
And rotate council. 01:10:38
So that's kind of the goal over the next few months is to be able to do it. 01:10:40
Once a month and rotate council. 01:10:44
So they hear different points of view. 01:10:46
Umm, what else? 01:10:48
Every time I sit here I think, oh next time I'm going to 1st, you know, write things down till I remember. 01:10:53
But I did not. But I appreciate also the. 01:10:58
The recognition of. 01:11:01
Don Overson, I only met him once, but he seemed like a very. 01:11:03
A very wise man, so. 01:11:07
I think that's fitting. 01:11:09
To honor him with. 01:11:11
The plaque in there. 01:11:12
On the water tank so. 01:11:14
Thank you so much, Sarah. 01:11:15
OK. 01:11:24
Yeah. And I can take that also actually. OK. Well then I don't have anything to report. 01:11:26
It's just getting go ahead and fill in because you had several meetings that you. 01:11:31
Save my voice. 01:11:35
I can't fill in for you on the school board. I feel like you did a really good job on that. 01:11:38
There was some legislation that passed in regards to the school district. 01:11:45
Not specifically our school district is overall school district splitting. 01:11:50
And it's a pretty big bill. It was. 01:11:54
Really hard to work on with all the different opinions. You have 14 different cities that were. 01:11:58
Heavily weighing in. 01:12:03
And or I guess I should say, three different new districts in Alpine. 01:12:05
Or from Alpine school district that all had opinions. 01:12:10
It was a lot of work and I'm just so grateful. 01:12:13
To our legislators, to our school board members, to our City Council members and mayors. 01:12:17
And managers and attorneys that sent so much work and time. It really was. 01:12:22
A lot of work and. 01:12:28
And it probably will. It will most definitely, I'm sure, have revisions. 01:12:30
And like I said, it's not just for our area. It will, you know, it's legislation for the whole state. 01:12:35
But umm. 01:12:41
I just kind of never want to look at it again. 01:12:45
But it's. 01:12:48
I'm really grateful for all of the hard work that everyone put into it so. 01:12:50
Thank you. 01:12:55
All right. 01:12:56
Just on the education thing, Marty, I've had three or four. I don't think they're actually, they might be connected to the City 01:13:00
Council members and a staff. I don't know if they're official. 01:13:05
But in looking over the finances. 01:13:10
They're recognizing the lack of funding from our RDA towards education and. 01:13:13
There were a few that sent me some. 01:13:18
Not threatening, but like why is Vineyard gonna be attached? Are you hearing that? 01:13:20
Yet is the finances. 01:13:25
Was it? Was it people within our new school district like Pleasant Grove and Orem where like. 01:13:28
Where's all the finances for Orem's Urbania's education and. 01:13:35
I constituents or representatives? 01:13:39
Like council members or one one is with. I don't. 01:13:44
I don't know if there's, I don't know if they have staff or official staff or if it's, I don't know. I would look at it. Well, the 01:13:48
sentiment that we've been working really well with our cities, like we meet regularly and I've talked to other people outside of. 01:13:54
Specifically, the council assignment for the district. 01:14:01
And, umm. 01:14:04
I don't want to name names or pretend to have opinions or state opinions of other council members from other cities. 01:14:07
But the general consensus is they see Vineyard as a long term investment that's going to help with their. 01:14:13
WP use is that the right background WPS? Yeah, the the. 01:14:20
They they actually are grateful to have them would be a part of it. If you recall during the prop. 01:14:25
Two initiative in Orem when they tried to create their own school district, their long term goal was always to involve involve 01:14:33
Orem. I'm sorry. 01:14:36
And so. 01:14:41
We have some pretty great relationships and they do see Vineyard. 01:14:42
Will help financially as they've already seen some of the Rda's. Umm. 01:14:47
Advancement payout. 01:14:53
And they've also, like I said, the Wpus are very important. 01:14:55
And. 01:14:59
Long term investment, yeah. 01:15:01
The long term investment is the biggest thing and I really hope. 01:15:02
That when you hear people talk about the RDA saying that they're concerned with that, I hope you will explain to them. 01:15:05
How we already have increased? 01:15:12
Our taxable value on several properties and how we are a long term investment. 01:15:14
Because I think that your representation on that matter will help people see Vineyard as a benefit rather than. 01:15:18
Umm, you know. 01:15:26
A liability. 01:15:28
Did you have anything else you wanted to report on? 01:15:29
Meeting to report on. 01:15:34
No, but in light of the last minute letter from the state auditor, I think we need to postpone the code of conduct another week or 01:15:38
two. 01:15:42
They didn't have time to look at a few things and I just said. 01:15:46
And I agree with the draft part of things. If we could get a couple of weeks on that, that'd be great. 01:15:51
I don't want to touch on the code of conduct. Did you? 01:15:57
Right, I don't think. 01:16:01
There were quite a few different. 01:16:03
I got it at like 4:15 today. 01:16:06
And I knew they were working on certain things. 01:16:10
And it's like. 01:16:13
Timeline and so I saw certain things that they addressed, but others. 01:16:15
That, but other than that. 01:16:19
I thought it just had to do with a financial request that you made that you are provided with. 01:16:27
I don't see anything. Did you send something in asking them about the code of conduct? 01:16:32
Yeah, I engage with them on. 01:16:37
Statutes of where and how on things I think I've had. 01:16:40
I don't know. 01:16:45
Did you guys do that as a committee? 01:16:46
No, I I this was a side thing on the. 01:16:48
On the Ledger. 01:16:52
That led to a larger conversation of. 01:16:54
Umm, so. 01:16:58
But like we could, I mean, I would just ask for more time. 01:17:01
On that, I don't want to put words in there now. 01:17:06
But I know that there's. 01:17:09
It's not a final. 01:17:13
Letter yet? 01:17:15
I am going to Brett. Did you have anything you wanted to report on that's not the code of conduct? 01:17:18
No. OK, then let's go ahead and let's move through the agenda. 01:17:23
And Eric, did you want to make your report or do you mind if we just post it via time? Did you have anything highlights you wanted 01:17:28
to state for the public? 01:17:32
Before you post it, we've got a 10 page report. There's lots of cool stuff. Make sure you review it. There's there's neat things 01:17:37
happening in the city and lots of great updates so that you can feel up to date on. 01:17:42
Just about everything we're working on right now. So awesome. 01:17:46
All right, then can I go ahead and get a motion on the consent items? 01:17:52
Can we? 01:18:01
Remove the 7.3. 01:18:04
The town hall day store. So you want to do a motion for 7.1 and 7.2. I make a motion to approve 7.1 and 7.2. All right, I have a 01:18:07
first by Jake for 7.1 and 7.2. Can I get a second? 01:18:13
Second. Second by Sarah. All in favor. 01:18:19
Aye. 01:18:22
All right, Marty is excused for this, she said. I just kidding. 01:18:24
All right, we'll go ahead and we'll talk about 7.3. Eric, can you read off those dates? Do you have them before you? 01:18:29
I do not have them before me. Give me a minute and I can. I don't think the issue is actually the dates, I just think it's 01:18:37
actually more of a forum. I think it would be great if we. 01:18:42
Did it more of like at the mic here and allowing people to come and talk to the full body. Oh OK, so you just wondering to talk 01:18:47
about how we do the town hall like the Yeah, I think we did it last year that way and I'd love to rotate to doing it more of them 01:18:52
just. 01:18:57
Addressing the body instead of addressing staff. 01:19:02
The way that I remember it last year was we did multiple different ways. We had opportunities for roundtables, we had 01:19:06
opportunities for where we had. 01:19:10
Rooms with boards and we had staff and all of the council and we all answered questions that were able to attend. 01:19:15
And I believe that's how we did it last time, which I think is a really engaging time because citizens get to have personal 01:19:23
conversations. 01:19:27
With the council and with staff. 01:19:30
Asking questions about the City Council. Do you feel differently or are you OK with the way we've done it? Or to clarify on the 01:19:33
format of a town hall? 01:19:37
That it will be a rotating thing, right? 01:19:42
Where we have two council members, we can do the rotating like we did last year or we also had one where all of us came. If you 01:19:46
remember the one in July that we did, the entire council was there. So we. 01:19:52
We kind of approached it town hall by town hall, where we said, hey, who can be at this? And. 01:19:59
And did mostly rotating and then did one with all of us and that's what met all of our schedules. Eric, did you have something to 01:20:05
add? 01:20:08
Two quick things. One, our plan is to just go ahead and notice all four of these this year, OK? 01:20:12
And that way, whichever council members would like to attend or welcome to attend if. 01:20:19
More than two at hand. 01:20:23
We'll go ahead and. 01:20:25
Put up a recording to whatever degree we can make that work. 01:20:27
And we have some off site there, right? We do have some off site. 01:20:31
The other thing that I was going to mention is that at last night's meeting. 01:20:36
An interesting piece of feedback that came in from the public. 01:20:40
Was they said, where's all your boards? We love that setup. We love being able to walk around and ask questions and figure out 01:20:44
what's going on in the city. And so there is. 01:20:48
At least last night's shout out for the the format that we've been using because that's. 01:20:52
It really gets people engaged and and. 01:20:57
Ask a question. I imagine data as we approach them. We could do what we did last year, which was allowed staff, which is Eric and 01:20:59
his team to kind of come up with different ways to do it. This last year we held one where we sat around and we did a whiteboard 01:21:05
for parking. 01:21:10
It was one of the meetings outside of our regular scheduled town halls that we did. 01:21:15
We did kind of engage that way with the entire council. 01:21:19
We've done the boards before. We do off sites where we talk about an actual site location, which I think we have one scheduled for 01:21:23
that. 01:21:27
Council, do you feel comfortable with the different formats or do you want to change them all to be a specific way? Can I ask a 01:21:32
question since I. 01:21:38
Wasn't in this position. 01:21:43
For last year. 01:21:45
Yeah, umm. 01:21:46
Having these as outline. 01:21:48
Does not preclude additional town halls on a more informal basis. 01:21:51
Right. Yeah, these are public facing. 01:21:56
Council town halls. 01:21:59
Yeah, I just know that there's a lot of energy that would love to allow, especially if you said in July, hey, in July, this gives 01:22:02
you the opportunity to come and talk to the whole body. 01:22:08
I don't think there's, I think there's appetite that citizens do like interacting with staff and. 01:22:14
You know, giving feedback to staff, but I think that many cases they would like to talk directly to us. 01:22:20
And talk to not all of them, but the July 1 would be great. It looks like all of the meetings will be publicly noticed, which 01:22:26
means that all of us will be there so they'll have a chance to rotate and talk to all of the council members who can be present. 01:22:33
And I think that what you're asking for is very similar to what? 01:22:41
We do in the public comment section. That's where people can come and say what they want to say and have us all here. Cannot be. 01:22:45
Yeah, not be 3 minutes, you know, give them. 01:22:50
Got two hours? Let's go. What do you want to say? If you want to stay long, you want to talk, great. 01:22:55
You have a lot on your chest. You have big ideas. 01:22:59
Kind of like, you know, the, what do they call it, America's Got Talent with the judges. Just let them RIP. What do you want to 01:23:03
hear? And let us write down your ideas. 01:23:07
I would just say whatever makes it more collaborative. And I think what I was trying to say and I'm not sure if I said it well. 01:23:13
I would. I feel like we have that opportunity where? 01:23:20
Maybe I, I. 01:23:24
I think that most people can get to their point within 3 to 5 minutes. 01:23:26
And I don't know how it works with the town hall if we were all sitting up here and allowing people to come up and make comment 01:23:31
and then us. 01:23:35
All responding without publicly noticed items. I don't know how that works. I think we could. This is what we recommended last 01:23:38
time that staff kind of create opportunities for us to really engage and talk about what's going on. There's an off site. 01:23:46
That's talking about some construction and grants that are happening, so it wouldn't be the right time. 01:23:53
There might be another meeting where it makes sense for all of us to sit down and whiteboard like we did with the parking. 01:23:58
For me personally, I don't think I'm going to recommend all meetings or feel like we necessarily need to assign one meeting, but 01:24:05
we could put that out there and say at one of our meetings we want to do a white board. As far as just having people come up and 01:24:11
talk to us, it didn't feel as collaborative for me, but I did like the white board. 01:24:16
Response where we didn't give people time limits, we just let them talk and I. 01:24:23
But we did say hey, come. 01:24:28
We're hoping you're bringing a new idea when you get to the microphone so there's not redundancy. 01:24:30
If you guys feel comfortable with that, we could go with that same kind of. 01:24:36
Forum. 01:24:41
Yeah, I agree. I like the. 01:24:42
Town Hall, That was a good point. 01:24:44
Yeah, that form works great. 01:24:46
OK, So what I recommended was that staff will come up with it. It'll be multiple different types of forums. 01:24:48
And they will approach them and bring them back to us, and then we will get to attend them because they'll be publicly noticed. 01:24:55
And now we know that that's one of the forms we want to incorporate. Does that work OK with that? 01:25:01
Umm, the person that makes this a motion will just add that little stipulation that we. 01:25:07
Allow the staff to do that. 01:25:14
So I just need to I move to approve 7.3. Did I get that right? 01:25:18
With the stipulation that staff will. 01:25:23
Create different formats. 01:25:27
That allow different types of collaboration and discussion. Great. I have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:25:29
Second, second by Sarah. All in favor, Aye. All right, let's move on to our public hearing. We're going to talk about the Parks 01:25:36
and Rec Master plan. Actually, we're not. This item is being continued to the next meeting. 01:25:42
So I'm going to continue with the public hearing as well. That way you guys will know what we're actually talking about when we 01:25:48
have the public hearing. So I need a motion to move this. 01:25:54
Public hearing to the next regularly scheduled meeting or. 01:26:00
A motion to continue a public hearing needs to state the specific date. 01:26:05
I moved to move the public hearing to our next meeting, which is scheduled for Wednesday, March 26th. 01:26:10
And can I move or do we need to vote at 6:00 PM? Does it have to state the time at 6:00 PM? OK. 01:26:21
So can I make the two motions at the same time? 01:26:29
And then I also make a motion to move. 01:26:32
The Parks and Recreation master plan to the next meeting, that same meeting. 01:26:35
OK, umm. 01:26:41
Great. I have a motion by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:26:44
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 01:26:48
I'm going to do this by roll call Jake. 01:26:52
Yes, Brett. Aye, aye, Marty. Yes, Sarah. All right, that brings us to our consolidated fee schedule amendment public hearing. I'm 01:26:54
going to ask to go into a public hearing. 01:27:00
So moved. Thanks. I have a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:27:07
Second. Second by Sarah. All in favor. 01:27:10
Aye, aye. 01:27:13
Any opposed all right. 01:27:14
And we will be hearing from our utility billing clerk, Maria. 01:27:16
And she's gonna present. 01:27:20
All right. So, yeah, for all the changes that are on the consolidated fee schedule. 01:27:23
Just to remind you guys that the impact fees have been moved to the next meeting. 01:27:29
So on Page 3. 01:27:35
We did add the clarification for the new parking permits. 01:27:37
For the designated local roles to be $20 per permit and the amenity roads to be $60. 01:27:41
On the next page we have. 01:27:48
What page are you referencing here? 01:27:51
#3. 01:27:53
If he says hold the draft. 01:27:54
On page four we have 3 new things. 01:27:57
Parks and Rec. So we have. 01:28:01
The Youth Street Hockey League. 01:28:03
The Youth Pickleball league and the whiffle ball tournament. 01:28:05
And then? 01:28:08
On #5 We just took out the rates that are effective just because I already passed. 01:28:10
On #7. 01:28:17
The special events has added a children's market fee. 01:28:19
As well as removed. 01:28:23
The summer celebration food vendor. 01:28:25
And just made it as Vineyard Days vendors. 01:28:28
The food truck lender fee has gone up. 01:28:31
Arrest change to be can arrange. 01:28:35
Uh, let's see here #9 there was just some clarification on the words. 01:28:40
As well as #10 for towing. 01:28:46
We would. We're changing it from from certificate to qualification. 01:28:49
What does that mean for the? 01:28:56
The Trump company does not have a. 01:28:59
It was, I believe. 01:29:02
See, that one's more for full. 01:29:05
That was in response to the state towing ordinance. They they don't allow a city to require a. 01:29:07
Separate certificate or a license? 01:29:12
And so we want our state, our our municipal code says. 01:29:15
If they're going to contract towing on private property and enter into an agreement. 01:29:20
That may need to be a designated tone coming with a city, which means they're willing to abide by our city ordinance. So we needed 01:29:24
to just change that verbiage to make sure that we were in compliance. 01:29:28
And then? 01:29:35
For page 12. 01:29:44
We have added for public works a red curb request application. 01:29:47
As well as a red curve paint. 01:29:52
And then the final thing is. 01:29:58
OK, so they pay for that? 01:30:01
Yeah. 01:30:02
That's just if they requested, if it's not something that the city would be doing in their own accord. 01:30:03
And the last thing is a fire hydrant rental meter that has gone up just due to the cost of a hydrometer going up. 01:30:10
All right, um. 01:30:18
Anybody from the public? Do you have any questions about any of these? 01:30:20
Not at this time. 01:30:25
All right, can I get a Muslim to go out of the public hearing? 01:30:26
So I have a first time already, can I get a second? 01:30:29
2nd thank you Sarah. All in favor. 01:30:32
All right, let's get some questions going from the Council. 01:30:35
Do you guys have any questions come back up. 01:30:41
You're not done. 01:30:43
Haven't been in a while, just a. 01:30:45
Shout out to UMM. 01:30:47
Events and Parks and Rec, I'm excited for the new programs that you guys have put on there. 01:30:50
I think 1. I think my kids might be too old for for the programs. I don't know the ages yet but. 01:30:56
Street hockey is really cool that you're trying that. 01:31:01
And then also, I think it's really great that Anna is taking on the children's. 01:31:04
The market rather than having going through the other companies great, but I think it's cool that Anna's taking that on and. 01:31:10
Cutting that up, that'll be super fun, yeah. 01:31:17
Awesome. It's a really cool market. 01:31:20
Umm, with the record request. 01:31:23
Does this request an application go outside of where we normally mark? 01:31:26
The red curve. 01:31:31
OK. 01:31:33
All right, other questions. 01:31:41
If not. 01:31:43
Question on the food truck vendor fee to make it arrange. 01:31:45
How do you determine which what the actual bank? That's a curiosity question as much as I do. 01:31:48
We reached out to our events coordinator today and. 01:31:53
They base that the cost. 01:31:57
Per truck is equal. 01:32:00
On any given day. 01:32:04
What they're assessing is if this is a really small event, they're going to just charge them that lower fee. 01:32:06
If it's a really big event that is highly desirable, they'll charge them the larger fee. 01:32:11
And maybe something in between if it's somewhere in between. 01:32:17
So proving your days they'll end up paying more because that's correct, but maybe Heritage days as an example. 01:32:20
Which is not quite the same scope of an event. They might charge them the lower amount. 01:32:26
Thank you. 01:32:31
OK. 01:32:32
It is my time to comment. 01:32:35
I just want to say how wonderful it was working with him and on the idea of overcrowding. That meeting the other day was awesome. 01:32:37
I agree with all the changes and everything. 01:32:45
The only thing is, is the parking. I know it has nothing to do with you at the digital parking pass, but. 01:32:48
Other than that, I agree 100% with it. 01:32:54
Perfect. 01:32:56
Since a digital parking pass cut. 01:32:58
Rates for our citizens and allow additional visitor parking. 01:33:00
And maybe so people could swap IDs and. 01:33:05
Made it really amenable and came from the. 01:33:08
Umm, multiple. 01:33:12
Opportunities that we had with the. 01:33:15
Citizens of Vineyard and including the town halls. 01:33:18
Correct. Yeah, OK. 01:33:22
All right, well, can I get a motion? 01:33:24
I don't want to hog all the mushrooms. Go for it. 01:33:32
I moved. 01:33:35
I move to approve Resolution 2025, Dash 06, the consolidated fee schedule amendment. 01:33:37
All right, we got a first by Marty. Can I get a second? 01:33:45
OK. Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 01:33:48
All right, I'm going to do this by roll call. 01:33:52
Sarah, Marty. Aye aye, Brett. 01:33:55
Jake No. 01:33:59
All right. 01:34:01
Thank you so much. Thank you discussing the. 01:34:02
Or code of conduct change. It seems like Jake has been in discussion with the auditor. Brett, I know you haven't been a party to 01:34:05
that discussion, is there? 01:34:10
Something that you want to still move forward and get something on the table today and do your report or would you like to at 01:34:15
least? 01:34:18
Have that discussion here. 01:34:21
I think we should definitely have the discussion and it's it's my opinion that we. 01:34:23
Unless there's a motion in. 01:34:30
There and everybody wants to move forward. My opinion is that we should move ahead with a with a vote tonight. I feel like we've 01:34:32
had. 01:34:36
Two months to work on this and I think that's sufficient time. I'm quite proud of what we've produced. 01:34:40
Over the last. 01:34:48
Couple of weeks. 01:34:49
Have gone and done a whole bunch of additional research on. 01:34:51
Similar types of ordinances and codes and bylaws in. 01:34:55
Other cities and. 01:35:00
We are much more thoughtful than anyone else in Utah. 01:35:03
And that is something that I think we should be proud of. 01:35:08
Umm, to the point where? 01:35:11
Many other cities. 01:35:14
That do have things. They have a single line that says by a 2/3 vote. 01:35:16
The Council can do basically whatever they want. 01:35:22
And that. 01:35:26
It feels like the thing that we don't want. 01:35:27
So I feel really good about what we've done. 01:35:33
But I'm absolutely open if there, if there's a motion to continue if that were to pass I. 01:35:35
The will of the Council is where I've. 01:35:41
Where I would go there? Would you like to understand what's in the letter? I've had a moment to read it. Yes, please. 01:35:43
So I. 01:35:49
I don't know the context of this letter it. 01:35:51
Is a Microsoft Word document. It has in it. 01:35:55
The seal of the state auditor's office. It's signed by an individual named Seth Elvis and a CPA, apparently within the auditor's 01:35:59
office. 01:36:03
The document is labeled as draft. It's unsigned. 01:36:07
It doesn't indicate who requested the letter or. 01:36:11
What the questions were that were asked of the auditor's office, but there is not anything in the letter that. 01:36:15
Relates. 01:36:20
In my view. 01:36:21
To the code of conduct at all it does deal with. 01:36:23
Access to the general Ledger and it essentially confirms the guidance that we provided to Councilmember Holdaway when he received 01:36:28
the Ledger, which is. 01:36:32
If it's shared with the third party. 01:36:37
Then they need to relay with that, sharing the privacy concerns and then the city has to track. 01:36:40
That information so we're aware of. 01:36:46
Who might have? 01:36:48
Private information. It has some suggestions about what things need to be publicly available through the Transparent Utah website. 01:36:50
I don't read any of that of being inconsistent with the city's practices. 01:36:58
They have a paragraph about the city ordinance about putting items on the agenda. 01:37:02
We can bring that up at a later meeting if changes need to be made. 01:37:08
On that, it's not clear to me that they do, but if they do, we can discuss and talk about them. 01:37:13
And then it has. 01:37:18
Some conversation about closed meeting and what? 01:37:20
Kinds of closed meeting topics can be discussed and in what setting. 01:37:24
That's it. So there's not anything I can see in the letter that relates it all to the code code. 01:37:29
I think in context. 01:37:35
Yeah, on. 01:37:39
February 24th I got an e-mail from Eric stating I wouldn't be getting the general Ledger with the. 01:37:41
The ability, I could get it. 01:37:48
That I wouldn't be given the ability to have a CPA. 01:37:49
To review, can I call point of order? We're supposed to be talking about the code of conduct. 01:37:53
Right, right. We're giving that appropriate. 01:37:58
Yeah, it is. Can we just talk about the code of conduct? So I guess what Sarah would be stating is are there questions about the 01:38:01
code of conduct that you wrote? Yeah. So part of the code of conduct has a section in it that deals with. 01:38:07
If you are. 01:38:13
Sharing documents or not sharing documents, and there's a question about it that the council can go into a closed door session to 01:38:15
review that. 01:38:19
And so. 01:38:23
Yeah, this the conversation that that I think is the one issue is like the authority of the City Council and so. 01:38:25
Umm, so I got this like an hour before. I don't know, like like I said, it's still a draft, but after. 01:38:34
I don't remember 6 meetings, 5 I don't remember. 01:38:44
How the back and forth? 01:38:47
Of where that authority rides or whatnot. And there were a big long list. I know Jamie mentioned like 5 of them. 01:38:50
That were discussed of kind of clarifying that. 01:38:56
Yes, that works under Tina and the state auditors office. 01:38:59
Can you point in the code of conduct? 01:39:03
Where where where that reference is? Because I'm not sure. 01:39:06
With the hours and hours I've spent with that document, it's unclear to me what you're referencing. 01:39:11
Umm, there's a section and I sent it over about the review like. 01:39:16
Where we would go? 01:39:24
Closed door session, right? 01:39:25
Closed door. 01:39:29
Close our session. 01:39:31
So to be clear. 01:39:33
Not the way the way that it's the way that it's stated in the. 01:39:35
Code of conduct. 01:39:40
Anything that has to do with grandma. 01:39:41
Is included under ethical violations. 01:39:44
And the stipulation in the current draft of the Code of Conduct. 01:39:48
Is that 100% of those get referred to the state, right? And that's why like I don't want to, we do not go into a closed session. 01:39:52
To make any. 01:40:00
Online document user OK OK so. 01:40:02
I may go in if someone were to question hey was there an inappropriate use of document? 01:40:06
And we don't. 01:40:13
We don't know. There is stipulation to go into a closed session if we think, hey, we don't know if that is a violation or not. 01:40:14
Then the action of the Council. 01:40:22
It is not to take any additional action beyond that. 01:40:25
I always just, like I said, when I saw the draft as well, I was like, oh. 01:40:30
You know, I would love some counsel on like what and where. 01:40:36
So that was my only thing was. 01:40:40
Until I saw that with removed, I was like because I know that that's what the. 01:40:43
My conversations with them were were I think if you didn't want to refer to the state where it belongs right now, if you heard 01:40:47
from the auditor and you wanted to bring it back to council for us to review it. 01:40:54
We could always go through an amendment process. 01:41:00
And vote this in according to state and referring it to the state currently. 01:41:04
Because right now what we're doing is you're going to the state auditor to refer to the state, and right now this just refers to 01:41:09
the state. So the only thing that we would be doing is bringing it back to Vineyard. 01:41:15
And if you wanted to do that, we can always make amendments in the future. 01:41:21
Yeah. Let me just, let me just first preface this probably because I probably could have started that way. 01:41:27
This document is 1000 times better from where we started and. 01:41:33
I would like to congratulate or even thank Brett and I feel very comfortable. 01:41:38
With my limited knowledge on understanding of code of conduct. 01:41:42
And where things were. 01:41:47
In my. 01:41:49
Last meeting I had felt like, OK, could we get some like some final resolution of like where? 01:41:50
And that was my only reserve. It wasn't anything towards the work or the great work that we. 01:41:58
Had conducted. 01:42:03
It was more of like the access to documents and the argument. 01:42:04
Of between. 01:42:09
From the February 26 of trying to get a CPA till now, I haven't had a CPA and I've been. 01:42:11
Working with them to say why can't I get that? 01:42:17
And then they work through that whole process and we're able to get that letter so that I can finally get one. 01:42:20
And I don't think that really has anything to do with the code of conduct. So I think that. 01:42:26
Let's go ahead and move forward from my opinion and if you want to bring any reviews and not refer them just to the state back to 01:42:31
Vineyard if that ends up coming out of the auditors office, it looks like right now we're in compliance and we are on the same 01:42:36
page with everything the. 01:42:41
The draft note unsigned said so. 01:42:47
I feel comfortable moving forward. Thank you for the work that was put in council. Do you have any additional questions or would 01:42:50
you feel good about adopting this right now? Another comment I'd like to make on this is. 01:42:57
Should umm. 01:43:05
Well, a couple of things. 01:43:07
Run. The proposal is to adopt this as. 01:43:09
Bylaws and not as code which gives us. 01:43:14
A lot more flexibility in learning. 01:43:17
How we operate with this code? 01:43:20
And I also just want to reiterate. 01:43:24
That at any time, if we find that it is being abused or if we get additional information from. 01:43:27
A third party review. 01:43:35
I personally would be happy to be a second to put. 01:43:39
A review of this. 01:43:43
A council agenda. 01:43:45
So that we can re evaluate it and make changes as needed. 01:43:46
Are you recommending that we put it in the bylaws versus a code? 01:43:51
Yeah, this was recommended. Does everybody feel comfortable? That's how it's in your packet. So it'll be adopted by resolution, 01:43:57
not by ordinance. And then that resolution points to the legal authorities, both state law and your existing. 01:44:03
Municipal ordinance, Does everybody feel comfortable with that? 01:44:09
OK, I would like to recognize those that put work into I don't know if. 01:44:12
They, David Pierce or David Larae would like to stand up and speak of the great work that. 01:44:18
It was a good collaborative effort. 01:44:23
Sonia did a wonderful job. Many many, many hands made the. 01:44:26
Oh, there were more than that too. We also had Jacob Wood. Jacob Wood. And the four of them were the citizens that did the most. 01:44:33
Christy Henshaw. The Republican Party chimed in. And there was Chris Brown. Chris Bramwell. 01:44:40
And so the document it was just. 01:44:47
This hit like an hour right before and I was like oh. 01:44:49
Were you going to address that? Were you not? And I didn't even get an e-mail and say, you know. 01:44:53
Where are you at? That's the only, that was the only pause. It seems like it doesn't refer to this at all. And so if there's any 01:44:59
changes, it looks like we can make an amendment. So I'm going to call for a motion. 01:45:04
Please make a motion. 01:45:09
Please, you want to do it right, you should do it. 01:45:13
I moved to adopt resolution. 01:45:17
2025 Dash 08 approving the proposed Code of Conduct as presented. 01:45:19
All right. We have a motion to approve as presented by Brett. Can I get a second? 01:45:24
Aye, all right. Fake is the second on that. 01:45:29
And I'm going to do this by roll call. 01:45:34
And I'll start with Sarah. 01:45:38
Hi, Marty. 01:45:41
Aye, Brett. 01:45:43
Our meetings attorney, thank you so much for coming. 01:45:48
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