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Are you rolling? 00:00:02
All right, today is August 7th, 2024. The time is 4:46. We're going to go ahead and start our special session for City Council. 00:00:05
We're going to start with an invocation in the Pledge of Allegiance. I'll go ahead and do that and we'll start with a prayer 00:00:10
first. What kind? Heavenly Father, we're so grateful for this day. We're so grateful for the ability to meet together and talk 00:00:16
about things that will eventually lead our city in a good path moving forward for generations to come. And we pray that we can be 00:00:22
thoughtful and. 00:00:27
Wise about these decisions and we pray that we'll be able to listen with humility and hear. 00:00:34
The public and where we feel by spirit and I'm just questioning all rise. 00:00:42
Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. 00:00:49
And to which it stands one nation under our under this whole with leveraging the impact of trial. 00:00:53
All right. This meeting is a public hearing to consider a change in government. I'm going to let our attorney, Jamie Blakesley 00:01:03
give a briefing on this and then we'll go ahead and open the public hearing for comment. Thank you, Mayor. We've had presentations 00:01:11
on this and discussion about this, so I'm not going to belabor what it is or why it's occurring. But I did want to just talk a 00:01:18
little bit about process and where we find ourselves because. 00:01:26
The dates that have to occur in state law, they don't always have logical coherence. And so there's some things happen. There's a 00:01:33
hearing on this today. And there remains an opportunity for the City Council to reverse course if it hears things and understands 00:01:41
things that make it want to want to move a different direction. But there are election law time frames that require the city to 00:01:48
begin acting as if this is going to be on the ballot. And so I just wanted to make clear for the public that. 00:01:55
Earlier today I noticed one out that was an invitation to for any eligible voter to request to write a for or against statement 00:02:03
for the ballot proposition. That's part of the process the county leads. That is to create the ballot and then create the voter 00:02:12
information pamphlets that will go out to voters in the county. That time frame doesn't sync up exactly with the time frame for. 00:02:21
This hearing and these things. And so I just didn't want anybody to be confused that by publishing that notice. 00:02:31
The decision was. 00:02:37
Predetermined and that the comments would not be heard and considered. We can still call things back, but we have to meet the time 00:02:40
frames within the election code. 00:02:44
Excellent. Thank you. OK. I'm going to ask for motion to open the public hearing, so moved first by Amber. 00:02:50
Second. Second by Marty. All in favor, aye. 00:02:58
OK. And Sarah is absent? 00:03:04
All right, this opens this up for anybody in the audience that would like to come and make a comment on the change of government. 00:03:06
Please come on up and share your comments with us. 00:03:13
Hello. 00:03:31
OK, my name is Daria Evans. I'm a Vineyard resident and I am coming as a concerned citizen. 00:03:35
And I'm asking the Council to reconsider the proposal to change the form of government from A5 member to six member council. 00:03:41
Do you remember the adage use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without? Well, I'm standing here today as living that 00:03:50
principle. I'm wearing a dress for Myer and Frank. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember Meyer and Frank. 00:03:57
This dress was over 20 years old. I'm making it do and I'm going to wear it out. And I want us to live by this last part of that 00:04:06
little adage. I think we can do without this time. I think we can do without this change for now. And I believe that we can wait 00:04:14
until we have more revenue coming in to be able to pay for the upcoming ballot and the council member's salary, and we may even 00:04:21
decide to go to a different form of government. 00:04:28
That's my thoughts. Thank you. Thank you, darling. 00:04:37
Should we just raise our hand if we agree with that, or should we see? 00:04:48
You can come up if you would like to. 00:04:52
And you can also raise your hand, yeah, but come on up if you want to say something. 00:04:54
Karen Cornelius, Vineyard resident I love what Daria had to say and I 2nd that. I think that perhaps now is not the time, and 00:05:06
maybe it is a process that needs more time, more research, and more input from a larger group in the community. I'm just curious, 00:05:12
why are we at 4:45? 00:05:19
That was that was just kind of a, a puzzling thing to me that we had moved it to this time and I think we may have had more 00:05:26
people. 00:05:30
Had it been at a more an easier time for people to come? Thanks. 00:05:34
Thanks. 00:05:47
I. 00:05:48
Hi, David Loray resident. 00:05:57
I agree with the last two speakers for all reasons they stated. It seems to me that there's not much gain. 00:06:01
It's not what's not worth the effort right now. I think the expense to go forward that. 00:06:12
Adding another counselor and I don't know, we get much benefit. We do this, we change an awful lot about the way government 00:06:18
operates. And in fact, it is not clear that the benefits we think we would get, we would get because I think the. 00:06:24
We have put in place a number of ordinances over the last 6-8 months that would actually prevent many of the benefits we think we 00:06:31
would get from from taking place. And so unless those benefits were repealed specifically, I don't see that we would get any, any 00:06:39
benefit from it. So I'm not, I'm not in favor of spending more money when we don't get anything for it to my point. Thanks. 00:06:47
Let's come up now some time. 00:07:06
Yeah, please. 00:07:11
David Pierce I'm a resident of Vineyard. 00:07:14
And. 00:07:18
Whether or not. 00:07:20
We maintain the same structure of government that we have now or whether or not we change it. 00:07:23
Ought to be a citizen's decision. 00:07:32
I hear a lot of comments from the podium here about giving giving citizens the choice. This is a perfect example of giving the 00:07:36
citizens a choice in what kind of government they want and how they want it to function structurally. 00:07:45
And. 00:07:55
With respect. 00:07:59
I think that it's always worth the effort to try and improve. 00:08:01
Our city government. 00:08:07
Government at any level. 00:08:09
I believe. 00:08:13
In the proposed form of government. 00:08:15
I think also. 00:08:19
That the current form of government is not bad. 00:08:21
But I believe the people should be given a choice. 00:08:27
Let them decide. Let us decide which way we want our city to go. 00:08:32
Having. 00:08:42
Having. 00:08:48
The attitude that. 00:08:50
Doesn't matter. 00:08:54
It's kind of scary to me. 00:08:57
Because I think it does matter. 00:08:59
It matters that we have a choice. It matters that we have the opportunity to select the best form of government this city needs, 00:09:03
this city deserves, from now into the future. 00:09:11
Thank you. Thank you. 00:09:21
Tim Blackburn, Vineyard resident. 00:09:29
I agree with everything's been said, I'm just not sure they're going to a six person council is the best. I think we should have 00:09:32
the best in this city of this growing. 00:09:37
The Five Council forum has worked more or less over the years that we've grown, and maybe we've grown beyond what that provided 00:09:42
for many years, but I'm not sure that only having the two choices is right at this point. I believe that we need to just put it on 00:09:51
hold and really study the situation out for a growing community. 00:09:59
It needs to be a form of government that is of the people, by the people and for the people. 00:10:10
I think somebody famous said that. 00:10:16
In the 1860s, and that's the kind of government that we really need, is where our citizens are heard. I agree with the idea that 00:10:18
citizens need to be heard. 00:10:23
But I'm not sure that these are the only choices that we should have before us before we move forward. So I would agree that now 00:10:30
is not the time to decide on a, a six person, put it on the ballot for a six person council or not. There should be probably other 00:10:38
deliberations and thinking of this going on for a while. Thank you very much. 00:10:46
Alright, Jamie, my question is, now that we've heard from everybody in the audience, almost. 00:11:08
Can I close out of the public hearing and then are we, we're not able to comment or answer any questions on that, right. Can you 00:11:16
give us the protocol after that? Sure. Once the hearings closed, you're able to to speak about the matter. It is on your agenda 00:11:23
there. There's not an action item on the agenda today so that the council can't act on anything. 00:11:30
You have until a little bit later this month to. 00:11:37
Change course if you wish to on the matter, but you would have to either do it on your next regularly scheduled meeting or call a 00:11:40
special session to do it. Pam is the date the 25th. 00:11:46
I can tell you. 00:12:00
That's OK. 00:12:03
OK, we'll go ahead and go out of the public hearing. Is this my 5th? Thank you. 00:12:04
All right. I need a motion to go out of the public hearing, so moved. Thank you. Amber, can I get a second? 00:12:09
Second, was that Sarah? OK. Second by Sarah. All in favor. Aye. All right. 00:12:16
Council, did you want to make final comments or have a discussion? 00:12:26
OK please I can. 00:12:37
I don't like the idea of raising taxes and growing the size of government, especially with. 00:12:40
We have the power amongst 3 votes right now currently on our City Council in a down economy. 00:12:46
Where we are have a proposed tax increase, I don't remember the exact numbers of putting it onto the. 00:12:54
Vote under the budget or the extra seat of 20,000 annually. 00:13:03
And in reviewing all the authority the mayor still has over the agenda and over the budget and we are in a both all of us being in 00:13:10
a legislative and all of us being in an executive role. And so I I would lean against it about that decision isn't being made 00:13:18
today. 00:13:26
But yeah. 00:13:37
I think I think there would need to be a consensus and more teaching. I just don't think it's the right time right now in this 00:13:40
economy. 00:13:45
OK, that's good. Well, I appreciate everyone coming out and sharing their opinions and I hope they will continue to do so and that 00:13:51
we hear from more people. I know this is a very big issue we're looking at and there are meaningful ramifications. So just 00:13:56
continue sharing your feedback. 00:14:01
So I didn't, I didn't realize we Vineyard Cities only had three mayors up to this point. 00:14:10
So we're so new in our organized government. 00:14:15
I talked to Chris Karn from Saratoga Springs today and there's quite a few cities that use the six, the 6th council form and 00:14:21
they've all said that they feel like it functions really well. The problems that some of the problems we've had with our 5 member. 00:14:28
Sorry, I just have to run my grandbaby home. 00:14:35
Is that we can't meet more than two of us together and so it's hard to collaborate. I feel like it would. 00:14:44
Be a big benefit if we could meet with three of us together, right? That's what happened. So so there's that Plus I feel like the 00:14:53
the mayor council forum. 00:14:58
From what I've heard, seems to bring more contention. 00:15:05
So I just, I want us to really think about it because there's a lot of cities just slightly bigger than ours. We're only four and 00:15:09
a half square miles. We're not going to get bigger than that. And and there's cities that are our size and a little bit bigger 00:15:17
that use the six member and they all seem to really agree that it functioned well. So I think if we take into account people who 00:15:24
were where we are and now are bigger and they still think that that one functions well for them. 00:15:31
It might be good for us to pay attention so. 00:15:39
That's all I have on there. 00:15:43
I, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm in agreement with Sarah on this one. 00:15:45
I think that we've been handicapped by only being able to meet with one council and the mayor at a time. 1 council member. I think 00:15:52
that there's a lot of frustration that's been expressed over the past, specifically the past seven months. 00:16:01
Where if we change this form of government, we'd be able to have two council members and the mayor meeting regularly to understand 00:16:11
policy better. 00:16:14
To prepare for meetings to discuss and hear it all at the same time. I also believe that having been having a better separation 00:16:19
between our legislative and executive body where the mayor would only have a vote where her powers and duties were applied and 00:16:27
voting in a tie break, I think sounds appropriate. I know there's some controversy with some legislation that we have in in 00:16:34
current in our current. 00:16:41
But. 00:16:49
I believe that as we move forward as a city, as we grow, as we develop that looking for a form that most of the city's surrounding 00:16:52
us with the exclusion of forum and Spanish work, they have a council manager form which is no longer available as an option. With 00:16:59
the council mayor form, I was able to find 8 cities in the entire state that have that form in which the majority have 00:17:07
populations. 00:17:14
Of their higher populations, key cities that I was able to find for Provo, Sandy, West Jordan, Ogden, Salt Lake City, and then 00:17:22
Logan and Murray were a little smaller. And then there was a city called Marriott Slaterville. 00:17:29
I could be wrong. 00:17:39
Is that what you got? 00:17:41
I've spoken with City Council members from other cities specifically that also said that they feel that the six member form of 00:17:44
government is a basic standard form of government that they believe functions in the best capacity. 00:17:51
I won't redo the cities. There are a lot of cities that use that form and I had a lot of conversation. Well, I don't exaggerate. I 00:18:01
think I had a few conversations. 00:18:05
I'm proposing this to put on the ballot and let the let our community decide. And if I'm wrong, then we'll find out in November. 00:18:12
And I believe that this would, I believe that this would substantially improve how we function and I. 00:18:20
I'm glad that we have this time to hear each other out over the next few months until this comes to the November ballot. 00:18:31
I just wanted a clarification because I think it's really important that all of us understand that. 00:18:40
What's happened over the past and obviously it's in my opinion of the past two to three years as the six member form obviously 00:18:46
will increase our tax burden about what we make 20,000 a year. 00:18:51
And I think the worst part of the six number form is the. 00:18:59
This wouldn't take into effect until the end of this term, right? And so we're going to 2026 and then when it does. 00:19:04
It doesn't change. I mean we literally have the same authority and power as a 5 as a six. Except for when I looked in state code. 00:19:14
Jamie, when you said that the mayor votes on certain things and on certain issues, it's actually not delineated anywhere in state 00:19:24
code of what she does or doesn't, though. It's more up to the opinion of the mayor of what things it's under her purview or not, 00:19:28
right? 00:19:33
No, that's not accurate. So state code talks about basically 3 categories of things that the mayor would vote on. 00:19:39
The mayor votes on the appointment of your city manager. The mayor votes to break the tie if you have a tie among the members of 00:19:46
the City Council that are present at a meeting. So if you had a meeting with four present and A22 vote, the mayor would break that 00:19:54
tie and then the mayor by right votes on any ordinance change that. 00:20:02
Affects her powers and obligations, basically her function within the city. 00:20:11
And if there's an ordinance that would affect those issues, then she would vote as a voting member of the council. On all other 00:20:18
council decisions, the mayor and the six member council form of government would not vote. So on budget questions, would not vote 00:20:26
on routine resolutions, contract approvals, those kinds of things, would not vote on any kind of ordinance that you would pass 00:20:33
that affects anything other than the mayor's rules. 00:20:40
Responsibilities would not vote and so the function does become a lot different the mayor role in that form of government becomes 00:20:48
one of executive functions within the city, ceremonial functions within the city and then as the chair of the council, the mayor 00:20:56
becomes the individual that. 00:21:04
Tries to coordinate them on the council members to determine what city council's business should be. 00:21:13
To try to work and find consensus on matters, knowing that as as she works to develop consensus in that form of government, she's 00:21:19
not a voting member of that consensus. So it's trying to drive toward solutions and problem solving. So in my experience with six 00:21:27
member councils, and I have several clients that operate in that form, that those are the shifts you see in in how the mayor 00:21:34
operates. But by law, they only vote on those 3. 00:21:41
You mentioned that we're all over the legislative authority and are over executive authority. We hold those roles together. What 00:21:52
what does he mean by that? 00:21:56
In the five member form, we all have 1/5 executive all right in our in our current form of government. 00:22:01
Oh, it doesn't take three to do to accomplish something. 00:22:08
There, it may be worth dusting off portions of the presentation I gave a little bit ago, but I'll summarize it under all three 00:22:13
forms of government available in the cities in Utah. So 5 member councils, 6 member council and council mayor. 00:22:20
The mayor is the chief executive of the city. There within the five and six member council form of government, there is some 00:22:29
determination by the City Council. What are the executive functions and the administrative functions that are given to the mayor 00:22:36
and what are the functions that are given to a city manager or retained by the City Council to to make decisions on. So an example 00:22:43
of that and kind of routine city business is. 00:22:51
You can establish spending authority and spending limits and you can draw those thresholds wherever you would like them to be. 00:22:59
You, you're not restricted by law and what they are or on what those processes may be. And so different cities have them in 00:23:06
different places. Larger cities that have to make a lot of larger expenditures may not want to burden the council with those 00:23:14
decisions. Smaller cities that have more limited budgets may want more of those decisions to come to the City Council and so. 00:23:21
You within your code can determine where you want to draw those lines. What you can't change in your code is that the mayor is the 00:23:29
chief executive officer and that all employees report through that chain of command and that certain executive functions and 00:23:35
appointment functions that the mayor holds, that the mayor holds regardless of your form of government. And so those things 00:23:41
wouldn't change, but. 00:23:46
Your your ordinances under. Within that framework you you can decide where to stack them and where to put them. 00:23:54
Your biggest difference five and five member council, 6 member council is whether the mayor is a voting member of the council on 00:24:01
routine business of the City Council. 00:24:06
Is that I would have a vote as a legislative part of a legislative presently and on the 6th it would be limited and then the mayor 00:24:13
council form there would be a veto. 00:24:19
You mentioned a tax increase for the six member. You had also mentioned the mayor council form that would be a higher tax 00:24:26
increase. What were your thoughts on that? Are you leaning towards staying with the five member? Yeah. I just think at this time 00:24:34
without a consensus across that it's it's we have more important things to focus in on the city, especially with our proposed tax 00:24:41
rate increase. I just don't think it's. 00:24:48
You know, in looking at it, it was to solve the problems of the past and I don't see the jurisdictional changes to that change 00:24:56
this. I think that. 00:25:01
Just without having to mention all of them it it there's more aggressive one that removes and makes it very delineated legislative 00:25:08
and executive. And if the council is open to doing that I would have gone to that. I I think I'm not close the door on if. 00:25:16
You know, both of the governments would have increased costs other than mayor or council form of government and. 00:25:26
At this time with with the proposed tax rate increase, I just go with three people. We have the votes to be able to do what we 00:25:35
need to do. 00:25:38
And if if US 5 can't get it done, I don't think getting a six person to bury the burden solves it. 00:25:43
And I think it is, I think the six member is a better form of government. I think we're probably three to five years out on 00:25:52
getting to that. And I think proposing it to just increase the cost right now is not the right timing. But I, I do agree with 00:25:59
Sarah and Marty that in the future it is, it is a better form and it gets there, but. 00:26:06
You know, we just got out of a budget meeting where we're. 00:26:14
Don't have any money for anything, so I just go another City Council member. I don't see that as a needed cost. 00:26:17
Just financially OK. Any closing comments from the Council? 00:26:23
OK, if not I am going to. 00:26:30
I joined this meeting. We're now adjourned. Thank you for coming. 00:26:34
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Are you rolling? 00:00:02
All right, today is August 7th, 2024. The time is 4:46. We're going to go ahead and start our special session for City Council. 00:00:05
We're going to start with an invocation in the Pledge of Allegiance. I'll go ahead and do that and we'll start with a prayer 00:00:10
first. What kind? Heavenly Father, we're so grateful for this day. We're so grateful for the ability to meet together and talk 00:00:16
about things that will eventually lead our city in a good path moving forward for generations to come. And we pray that we can be 00:00:22
thoughtful and. 00:00:27
Wise about these decisions and we pray that we'll be able to listen with humility and hear. 00:00:34
The public and where we feel by spirit and I'm just questioning all rise. 00:00:42
Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. 00:00:49
And to which it stands one nation under our under this whole with leveraging the impact of trial. 00:00:53
All right. This meeting is a public hearing to consider a change in government. I'm going to let our attorney, Jamie Blakesley 00:01:03
give a briefing on this and then we'll go ahead and open the public hearing for comment. Thank you, Mayor. We've had presentations 00:01:11
on this and discussion about this, so I'm not going to belabor what it is or why it's occurring. But I did want to just talk a 00:01:18
little bit about process and where we find ourselves because. 00:01:26
The dates that have to occur in state law, they don't always have logical coherence. And so there's some things happen. There's a 00:01:33
hearing on this today. And there remains an opportunity for the City Council to reverse course if it hears things and understands 00:01:41
things that make it want to want to move a different direction. But there are election law time frames that require the city to 00:01:48
begin acting as if this is going to be on the ballot. And so I just wanted to make clear for the public that. 00:01:55
Earlier today I noticed one out that was an invitation to for any eligible voter to request to write a for or against statement 00:02:03
for the ballot proposition. That's part of the process the county leads. That is to create the ballot and then create the voter 00:02:12
information pamphlets that will go out to voters in the county. That time frame doesn't sync up exactly with the time frame for. 00:02:21
This hearing and these things. And so I just didn't want anybody to be confused that by publishing that notice. 00:02:31
The decision was. 00:02:37
Predetermined and that the comments would not be heard and considered. We can still call things back, but we have to meet the time 00:02:40
frames within the election code. 00:02:44
Excellent. Thank you. OK. I'm going to ask for motion to open the public hearing, so moved first by Amber. 00:02:50
Second. Second by Marty. All in favor, aye. 00:02:58
OK. And Sarah is absent? 00:03:04
All right, this opens this up for anybody in the audience that would like to come and make a comment on the change of government. 00:03:06
Please come on up and share your comments with us. 00:03:13
Hello. 00:03:31
OK, my name is Daria Evans. I'm a Vineyard resident and I am coming as a concerned citizen. 00:03:35
And I'm asking the Council to reconsider the proposal to change the form of government from A5 member to six member council. 00:03:41
Do you remember the adage use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without? Well, I'm standing here today as living that 00:03:50
principle. I'm wearing a dress for Myer and Frank. I don't know if any of you are old enough to remember Meyer and Frank. 00:03:57
This dress was over 20 years old. I'm making it do and I'm going to wear it out. And I want us to live by this last part of that 00:04:06
little adage. I think we can do without this time. I think we can do without this change for now. And I believe that we can wait 00:04:14
until we have more revenue coming in to be able to pay for the upcoming ballot and the council member's salary, and we may even 00:04:21
decide to go to a different form of government. 00:04:28
That's my thoughts. Thank you. Thank you, darling. 00:04:37
Should we just raise our hand if we agree with that, or should we see? 00:04:48
You can come up if you would like to. 00:04:52
And you can also raise your hand, yeah, but come on up if you want to say something. 00:04:54
Karen Cornelius, Vineyard resident I love what Daria had to say and I 2nd that. I think that perhaps now is not the time, and 00:05:06
maybe it is a process that needs more time, more research, and more input from a larger group in the community. I'm just curious, 00:05:12
why are we at 4:45? 00:05:19
That was that was just kind of a, a puzzling thing to me that we had moved it to this time and I think we may have had more 00:05:26
people. 00:05:30
Had it been at a more an easier time for people to come? Thanks. 00:05:34
Thanks. 00:05:47
I. 00:05:48
Hi, David Loray resident. 00:05:57
I agree with the last two speakers for all reasons they stated. It seems to me that there's not much gain. 00:06:01
It's not what's not worth the effort right now. I think the expense to go forward that. 00:06:12
Adding another counselor and I don't know, we get much benefit. We do this, we change an awful lot about the way government 00:06:18
operates. And in fact, it is not clear that the benefits we think we would get, we would get because I think the. 00:06:24
We have put in place a number of ordinances over the last 6-8 months that would actually prevent many of the benefits we think we 00:06:31
would get from from taking place. And so unless those benefits were repealed specifically, I don't see that we would get any, any 00:06:39
benefit from it. So I'm not, I'm not in favor of spending more money when we don't get anything for it to my point. Thanks. 00:06:47
Let's come up now some time. 00:07:06
Yeah, please. 00:07:11
David Pierce I'm a resident of Vineyard. 00:07:14
And. 00:07:18
Whether or not. 00:07:20
We maintain the same structure of government that we have now or whether or not we change it. 00:07:23
Ought to be a citizen's decision. 00:07:32
I hear a lot of comments from the podium here about giving giving citizens the choice. This is a perfect example of giving the 00:07:36
citizens a choice in what kind of government they want and how they want it to function structurally. 00:07:45
And. 00:07:55
With respect. 00:07:59
I think that it's always worth the effort to try and improve. 00:08:01
Our city government. 00:08:07
Government at any level. 00:08:09
I believe. 00:08:13
In the proposed form of government. 00:08:15
I think also. 00:08:19
That the current form of government is not bad. 00:08:21
But I believe the people should be given a choice. 00:08:27
Let them decide. Let us decide which way we want our city to go. 00:08:32
Having. 00:08:42
Having. 00:08:48
The attitude that. 00:08:50
Doesn't matter. 00:08:54
It's kind of scary to me. 00:08:57
Because I think it does matter. 00:08:59
It matters that we have a choice. It matters that we have the opportunity to select the best form of government this city needs, 00:09:03
this city deserves, from now into the future. 00:09:11
Thank you. Thank you. 00:09:21
Tim Blackburn, Vineyard resident. 00:09:29
I agree with everything's been said, I'm just not sure they're going to a six person council is the best. I think we should have 00:09:32
the best in this city of this growing. 00:09:37
The Five Council forum has worked more or less over the years that we've grown, and maybe we've grown beyond what that provided 00:09:42
for many years, but I'm not sure that only having the two choices is right at this point. I believe that we need to just put it on 00:09:51
hold and really study the situation out for a growing community. 00:09:59
It needs to be a form of government that is of the people, by the people and for the people. 00:10:10
I think somebody famous said that. 00:10:16
In the 1860s, and that's the kind of government that we really need, is where our citizens are heard. I agree with the idea that 00:10:18
citizens need to be heard. 00:10:23
But I'm not sure that these are the only choices that we should have before us before we move forward. So I would agree that now 00:10:30
is not the time to decide on a, a six person, put it on the ballot for a six person council or not. There should be probably other 00:10:38
deliberations and thinking of this going on for a while. Thank you very much. 00:10:46
Alright, Jamie, my question is, now that we've heard from everybody in the audience, almost. 00:11:08
Can I close out of the public hearing and then are we, we're not able to comment or answer any questions on that, right. Can you 00:11:16
give us the protocol after that? Sure. Once the hearings closed, you're able to to speak about the matter. It is on your agenda 00:11:23
there. There's not an action item on the agenda today so that the council can't act on anything. 00:11:30
You have until a little bit later this month to. 00:11:37
Change course if you wish to on the matter, but you would have to either do it on your next regularly scheduled meeting or call a 00:11:40
special session to do it. Pam is the date the 25th. 00:11:46
I can tell you. 00:12:00
That's OK. 00:12:03
OK, we'll go ahead and go out of the public hearing. Is this my 5th? Thank you. 00:12:04
All right. I need a motion to go out of the public hearing, so moved. Thank you. Amber, can I get a second? 00:12:09
Second, was that Sarah? OK. Second by Sarah. All in favor. Aye. All right. 00:12:16
Council, did you want to make final comments or have a discussion? 00:12:26
OK please I can. 00:12:37
I don't like the idea of raising taxes and growing the size of government, especially with. 00:12:40
We have the power amongst 3 votes right now currently on our City Council in a down economy. 00:12:46
Where we are have a proposed tax increase, I don't remember the exact numbers of putting it onto the. 00:12:54
Vote under the budget or the extra seat of 20,000 annually. 00:13:03
And in reviewing all the authority the mayor still has over the agenda and over the budget and we are in a both all of us being in 00:13:10
a legislative and all of us being in an executive role. And so I I would lean against it about that decision isn't being made 00:13:18
today. 00:13:26
But yeah. 00:13:37
I think I think there would need to be a consensus and more teaching. I just don't think it's the right time right now in this 00:13:40
economy. 00:13:45
OK, that's good. Well, I appreciate everyone coming out and sharing their opinions and I hope they will continue to do so and that 00:13:51
we hear from more people. I know this is a very big issue we're looking at and there are meaningful ramifications. So just 00:13:56
continue sharing your feedback. 00:14:01
So I didn't, I didn't realize we Vineyard Cities only had three mayors up to this point. 00:14:10
So we're so new in our organized government. 00:14:15
I talked to Chris Karn from Saratoga Springs today and there's quite a few cities that use the six, the 6th council form and 00:14:21
they've all said that they feel like it functions really well. The problems that some of the problems we've had with our 5 member. 00:14:28
Sorry, I just have to run my grandbaby home. 00:14:35
Is that we can't meet more than two of us together and so it's hard to collaborate. I feel like it would. 00:14:44
Be a big benefit if we could meet with three of us together, right? That's what happened. So so there's that Plus I feel like the 00:14:53
the mayor council forum. 00:14:58
From what I've heard, seems to bring more contention. 00:15:05
So I just, I want us to really think about it because there's a lot of cities just slightly bigger than ours. We're only four and 00:15:09
a half square miles. We're not going to get bigger than that. And and there's cities that are our size and a little bit bigger 00:15:17
that use the six member and they all seem to really agree that it functioned well. So I think if we take into account people who 00:15:24
were where we are and now are bigger and they still think that that one functions well for them. 00:15:31
It might be good for us to pay attention so. 00:15:39
That's all I have on there. 00:15:43
I, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm in agreement with Sarah on this one. 00:15:45
I think that we've been handicapped by only being able to meet with one council and the mayor at a time. 1 council member. I think 00:15:52
that there's a lot of frustration that's been expressed over the past, specifically the past seven months. 00:16:01
Where if we change this form of government, we'd be able to have two council members and the mayor meeting regularly to understand 00:16:11
policy better. 00:16:14
To prepare for meetings to discuss and hear it all at the same time. I also believe that having been having a better separation 00:16:19
between our legislative and executive body where the mayor would only have a vote where her powers and duties were applied and 00:16:27
voting in a tie break, I think sounds appropriate. I know there's some controversy with some legislation that we have in in 00:16:34
current in our current. 00:16:41
But. 00:16:49
I believe that as we move forward as a city, as we grow, as we develop that looking for a form that most of the city's surrounding 00:16:52
us with the exclusion of forum and Spanish work, they have a council manager form which is no longer available as an option. With 00:16:59
the council mayor form, I was able to find 8 cities in the entire state that have that form in which the majority have 00:17:07
populations. 00:17:14
Of their higher populations, key cities that I was able to find for Provo, Sandy, West Jordan, Ogden, Salt Lake City, and then 00:17:22
Logan and Murray were a little smaller. And then there was a city called Marriott Slaterville. 00:17:29
I could be wrong. 00:17:39
Is that what you got? 00:17:41
I've spoken with City Council members from other cities specifically that also said that they feel that the six member form of 00:17:44
government is a basic standard form of government that they believe functions in the best capacity. 00:17:51
I won't redo the cities. There are a lot of cities that use that form and I had a lot of conversation. Well, I don't exaggerate. I 00:18:01
think I had a few conversations. 00:18:05
I'm proposing this to put on the ballot and let the let our community decide. And if I'm wrong, then we'll find out in November. 00:18:12
And I believe that this would, I believe that this would substantially improve how we function and I. 00:18:20
I'm glad that we have this time to hear each other out over the next few months until this comes to the November ballot. 00:18:31
I just wanted a clarification because I think it's really important that all of us understand that. 00:18:40
What's happened over the past and obviously it's in my opinion of the past two to three years as the six member form obviously 00:18:46
will increase our tax burden about what we make 20,000 a year. 00:18:51
And I think the worst part of the six number form is the. 00:18:59
This wouldn't take into effect until the end of this term, right? And so we're going to 2026 and then when it does. 00:19:04
It doesn't change. I mean we literally have the same authority and power as a 5 as a six. Except for when I looked in state code. 00:19:14
Jamie, when you said that the mayor votes on certain things and on certain issues, it's actually not delineated anywhere in state 00:19:24
code of what she does or doesn't, though. It's more up to the opinion of the mayor of what things it's under her purview or not, 00:19:28
right? 00:19:33
No, that's not accurate. So state code talks about basically 3 categories of things that the mayor would vote on. 00:19:39
The mayor votes on the appointment of your city manager. The mayor votes to break the tie if you have a tie among the members of 00:19:46
the City Council that are present at a meeting. So if you had a meeting with four present and A22 vote, the mayor would break that 00:19:54
tie and then the mayor by right votes on any ordinance change that. 00:20:02
Affects her powers and obligations, basically her function within the city. 00:20:11
And if there's an ordinance that would affect those issues, then she would vote as a voting member of the council. On all other 00:20:18
council decisions, the mayor and the six member council form of government would not vote. So on budget questions, would not vote 00:20:26
on routine resolutions, contract approvals, those kinds of things, would not vote on any kind of ordinance that you would pass 00:20:33
that affects anything other than the mayor's rules. 00:20:40
Responsibilities would not vote and so the function does become a lot different the mayor role in that form of government becomes 00:20:48
one of executive functions within the city, ceremonial functions within the city and then as the chair of the council, the mayor 00:20:56
becomes the individual that. 00:21:04
Tries to coordinate them on the council members to determine what city council's business should be. 00:21:13
To try to work and find consensus on matters, knowing that as as she works to develop consensus in that form of government, she's 00:21:19
not a voting member of that consensus. So it's trying to drive toward solutions and problem solving. So in my experience with six 00:21:27
member councils, and I have several clients that operate in that form, that those are the shifts you see in in how the mayor 00:21:34
operates. But by law, they only vote on those 3. 00:21:41
You mentioned that we're all over the legislative authority and are over executive authority. We hold those roles together. What 00:21:52
what does he mean by that? 00:21:56
In the five member form, we all have 1/5 executive all right in our in our current form of government. 00:22:01
Oh, it doesn't take three to do to accomplish something. 00:22:08
There, it may be worth dusting off portions of the presentation I gave a little bit ago, but I'll summarize it under all three 00:22:13
forms of government available in the cities in Utah. So 5 member councils, 6 member council and council mayor. 00:22:20
The mayor is the chief executive of the city. There within the five and six member council form of government, there is some 00:22:29
determination by the City Council. What are the executive functions and the administrative functions that are given to the mayor 00:22:36
and what are the functions that are given to a city manager or retained by the City Council to to make decisions on. So an example 00:22:43
of that and kind of routine city business is. 00:22:51
You can establish spending authority and spending limits and you can draw those thresholds wherever you would like them to be. 00:22:59
You, you're not restricted by law and what they are or on what those processes may be. And so different cities have them in 00:23:06
different places. Larger cities that have to make a lot of larger expenditures may not want to burden the council with those 00:23:14
decisions. Smaller cities that have more limited budgets may want more of those decisions to come to the City Council and so. 00:23:21
You within your code can determine where you want to draw those lines. What you can't change in your code is that the mayor is the 00:23:29
chief executive officer and that all employees report through that chain of command and that certain executive functions and 00:23:35
appointment functions that the mayor holds, that the mayor holds regardless of your form of government. And so those things 00:23:41
wouldn't change, but. 00:23:46
Your your ordinances under. Within that framework you you can decide where to stack them and where to put them. 00:23:54
Your biggest difference five and five member council, 6 member council is whether the mayor is a voting member of the council on 00:24:01
routine business of the City Council. 00:24:06
Is that I would have a vote as a legislative part of a legislative presently and on the 6th it would be limited and then the mayor 00:24:13
council form there would be a veto. 00:24:19
You mentioned a tax increase for the six member. You had also mentioned the mayor council form that would be a higher tax 00:24:26
increase. What were your thoughts on that? Are you leaning towards staying with the five member? Yeah. I just think at this time 00:24:34
without a consensus across that it's it's we have more important things to focus in on the city, especially with our proposed tax 00:24:41
rate increase. I just don't think it's. 00:24:48
You know, in looking at it, it was to solve the problems of the past and I don't see the jurisdictional changes to that change 00:24:56
this. I think that. 00:25:01
Just without having to mention all of them it it there's more aggressive one that removes and makes it very delineated legislative 00:25:08
and executive. And if the council is open to doing that I would have gone to that. I I think I'm not close the door on if. 00:25:16
You know, both of the governments would have increased costs other than mayor or council form of government and. 00:25:26
At this time with with the proposed tax rate increase, I just go with three people. We have the votes to be able to do what we 00:25:35
need to do. 00:25:38
And if if US 5 can't get it done, I don't think getting a six person to bury the burden solves it. 00:25:43
And I think it is, I think the six member is a better form of government. I think we're probably three to five years out on 00:25:52
getting to that. And I think proposing it to just increase the cost right now is not the right timing. But I, I do agree with 00:25:59
Sarah and Marty that in the future it is, it is a better form and it gets there, but. 00:26:06
You know, we just got out of a budget meeting where we're. 00:26:14
Don't have any money for anything, so I just go another City Council member. I don't see that as a needed cost. 00:26:17
Just financially OK. Any closing comments from the Council? 00:26:23
OK, if not I am going to. 00:26:30
I joined this meeting. We're now adjourned. Thank you for coming. 00:26:34
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