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  • Mayor Fullmer called the meeting to order at00 pm            PRESENTATION2.1.   OpenandPublicMeetingsAct/Ethics Training CityAttorneyJayme Blakesleywillpresent ontheOpen andPublicMeetingsAct.
  • City Attorney Jayme Blakesley presented on the Open and Public Meetings Act. He covered several aspects of the law, including specifics on issues as they pertained to closed sessions.
  • Mr. Blakesley covered the ethics act.         BUSINESSITEMS3.1.   CodeofConduct(Ordinance2025-01) CityAttorneyJaymeBlakesleywillpresentarecommendationforacitycouncilcode of conduct. The mayor and City Council will act to adopt (or deny) this request by Ordinance.
  • Mr. Blakesley presented the proposed code of conduct.
  • Councilmember Clawson asked about the enforcement of the code of conduct, specifically as it pertained to the number of votes needed for any action.
  • Councilmember Cameron had additional questions about the process and clarification on how investigations would be conducted or initiated. Councilmember Sifuentes shared concerns that some of the language may be too broad. There was a discussion regarding amending or adding clarifying language to create a more formalized process.
  • Councilmember Holdaway asked if there was any public involvement in the creation of the code of conduct. He suggested having citizens work on putting together a code of conduct. A discussion ensued.
  • Councilmember Cameron commented on the process of how an agenda is formed. She reminded the council that it has always been the position of the mayor that if there was an item that someone on the council felt needed more work, that votes could be delayed. She stated that she never felt like there was an item that she was being pushed to vote on.
  • Councilmember Holdaway suggested that city staff and those on the council had made false claims about him or his family, though he did not detail those allegations. He stated that almost everyone in the room had spread disinformation in some way, even himself, and that because of that censure is not necessarily a just consequence. He asserted that in some cases to get to what he believed were the core issues he had to be aggressive in a way that some might characterize as bullying.
  • Councilmember Holdaway stated that abuse is subjective and that it would be inappropriate to give the council authority to decide if a member had been abusive, that the term is too hard to define.
  • Councilmember Holdaway shared additional concerns with the terminology regarding going above and beyond and outside the bounds of authority. He felt that its inclusion in a code of conduct would prevent him from speaking to stakeholders outside of council meetings. He stated that in some instances he had, while using what he believed was his authority as an elected official, had to disseminate protected information. He believed that as a member of the council he had the authority to define what falls within attorney client privilege. He felt that the public’s right to know was more important than a document being protected.  He believed that prohibiting that in a code of conduct would tie his hands.
  • Mr. Blakesley added clarification on several points raised by Councilmember Holdaway. Specifically, how attorney client privilege worked as it pertained to the council and who was responsible for classifications of records. He stressed that councilmembers have an obligation to verify the classification of a document before sharing it publicly.
  • Councilmember Holdaway felt that those classifications should be discussed and reevaluated. That due to unspecified issues with city leadership that those issues had necessitated violation of those classifications. He stated that he trusted Mr. Blakesley but that on some matters he felt he had not been truthful and that if something isn’t true then it isn’t a protected document. Additionally, he asserted that if he determined whether a document or statement was false or misleading that he would share it publicly and accept the consequences, choosing to side with transparency and the citizens.
  • Councilmember Sifuentes asked for clarification on statements made by Councilmember Holdaway, regarding what he described as his duty to represent a minority voice in the city. A discussion ensued. Mr. Blakesley recommended creating a subcommittee that would evaluate the code of conduct and recommend changes.
  • Councilmember Cameron asked for clarification on the previously discussed ethics board. A discussion ensued.
  • Mayor Fullmer established a subcommittee, including councilmembers Holdaway and Clawson, to evaluate the code of conduct and recommend changes.
  • Mayor Fullmer called for a motion to move the code of conduct to the next meeting.
  • Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO CONTINUE DISCUSSION AND POSSIBLE ACTION ON ORDINANCE25-01 TO THE NEXT MEETING ON JANUARYTH. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON, SECONDED THE MOTION. MAYOR FULLMER AND COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, SIFUENTES, CLAWSON, AND HOLDAWAY VOTED YES. THE MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.           CLOSEDSESSION
  • Motion: COUNCILMEMBER SIFUENTES MOVED TO ENTER A CLOSED SESSION, IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE CITY COUNCIL MEETING, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCUSSING THE CHARACTER, PROFESSIONAL COMPETENCE, OR PHYSICAL OR MENTAL HEALTH OF AN INDIVIDUAL. COUNCILMEMBER CAMERON SECONDED THE MOTION. ROLL CALL WENT AS FOLLOWS: MAYOR FULLMER AND COUNCILMEMBERS CAMERON, SIFUENTES, CLAWSON, AND HOLDAWAY VOTED YES. THE MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.          ADJOURNMENTMayor Fullmer adjourned the meeting at12 pm.               MINUTES APPROVED ON:                            29/2025   CERTIFIEDCORRECTBY:   TONYLARA,DEPUTYCITYRECORDER
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Transcript

Event transcript
Get a special session of the Vineyard City Council. 00:00:00
I'm going. We'll have Council Member Brett Clausen give us an invitation and a Pledge of Allegiance. 00:00:03
And then we'll start with our meeting. 00:00:08
Our Father who art in heaven, we're grateful that we can be gathered together. 00:00:14
And have some public discourse and discuss the business of our city. 00:00:18
And we are grateful that we live in a country that allows us to do so. 00:00:24
And to share our agreements and disagreements and make progress in this, we pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen. Amen. 00:00:28
All right, all right. 00:00:36
I pledge allegiance to the flag. 00:00:44
Of the United States of America. 00:00:46
Considered for which it stands. 00:00:49
Nation under God. 00:00:52
In the Liberty and justice for all. 00:00:54
OK, we're going to start out with our annual open and public meetings, ACT and ethics training. 00:01:00
Our city attorney, Jamie Blakesley will present this just as a reminder if you guys have your disclosures ready to turn them into 00:01:06
Pam, Pam or Pam's Not here. 00:01:11
Oh, just kidding. Don't turn them in. We have new ones, so if you fill them out, we're going to fill out new ones. No worries. 00:01:17
And then she will also deliver the date that those need to be turned in by as well. OK, All right, Jamie. 00:01:23
I'm just going to mention that for Jake. 00:01:38
Jake, I just wanted to let you know, Pam said that with our disclosure forms that she gave to us, there's new disclosure forms. So 00:01:39
if you filters out, she'll be sending the new ones out. 00:01:44
And then give the dates. 00:01:49
For the deadline on that. 00:01:51
OK. 00:01:53
I will circulate. 00:01:55
Can everybody hear me all right? 00:01:58
I know sometimes the mics are sensitive. Back girl, you're OK. 00:01:59
I'm going to circulate some information after this that will be included in the meeting packet that just has. 00:02:03
The Basics of Open and public meetings act, but I'm not going to display a presentation. We've been through it before and so I 00:02:10
want to go through it. 00:02:13
With a little bit more speed than what we've done. 00:02:17
In past years, but. 00:02:20
As you all know, the city council's a public body. You're subject to the Open and Public Meetings Act, and that means. 00:02:22
All of your meetings have to be conducted openly and you have to deliberate openly. 00:02:29
When you act, meetings have to be noticed. 00:02:33
There from time to time or hearing requirements, but you. 00:02:37
Have to notice each meeting at least 24 hours ahead of time. 00:02:41
And they're open unless you close the meeting. Closed is a term that's used in the ACT. 00:02:45
Anytime that you have a quorum present from the City Council discussing things that are the council's business. 00:02:50
That would be an open meeting and you would have to. 00:02:58
Either stop that discussion, stop that meeting, or transition to an open meeting. 00:03:02
The notice requirements are 24 hours. They have to have the agenda, date, time, place. There are exceptions for emergency 00:03:07
meetings, but those are very, very rare. 00:03:12
The agenda has to have specificity on the topics that will be discussed so that folks who may wish to attend know. 00:03:17
What that topic would be? 00:03:25
And then you have to publish an annual notice of your scheduled meetings. 00:03:27
There is orderly conduct that's required by the ACT. You are allowed to hold meetings electronically as long as you have a policy 00:03:32
that allows for it and that you have an anchor location for those meetings. 00:03:38
Written minutes must be kept of every meeting and a recording must be kept of every meeting, with some exceptions for certain 00:03:45
types of closed session meetings. 00:03:50
The written minutes have to have the time, date and place of the meeting, the name of those who are present, the substance of the 00:03:55
matters proposed, discussed or decided. 00:03:58
And then a record of votes. 00:04:02
It also has to have a name of each person that provides comments and the summary of the substance that the comment received. 00:04:05
And any other information from a meeting that a member requests to be included. 00:04:11
And then written meeting minutes are published and then kept. 00:04:16
By the City Recorder. 00:04:21
The recording of the meeting has to be a complete, unedited recording that is retained permanently. 00:04:23
You are allowed to close meetings. It requires A2 third vote. 00:04:29
It must meet the subject matter requirements of a closed meeting. I'll talk about that in just a moment. 00:04:34
And it has to be publicly announced and on the record. The reason for the closed meeting? 00:04:39
And each members vote for Against the clause meeting. 00:04:44
There are a long list of things for which you can close the meeting, but those that. 00:04:47
And be used by city council's are an individual's character, professional confidence or physical or mental health. 00:04:53
A strategy session about litigation. Strategy sessions about real property. 00:05:00
And then there are certain things related to security measures or investigative proceedings and deliberations that. 00:05:04
For which a meeting can be closed. 00:05:10
There are. 00:05:13
Some prohibitions on closed meetings. For example, if you're interviewing the fill a vacancy in an elected position, those occur 00:05:16
in an open meeting. 00:05:20
We experienced that just recently. 00:05:25
A recording of closed meetings is kept in most circumstances. There are some exceptions if it's a closed meeting to talk about 00:05:28
character, competence, health. 00:05:33
Or security measures than the presiding officer cannot keep a recording and sign an affidavit. 00:05:38
For the reason why that was closed and what was discussed. 00:05:45
Emergency meetings, again, are allowed. 00:05:49
They require a majority of the members of the council to approve an emergency meeting. 00:05:52
They're different from a meeting like today. Today's a special meeting, which would mean. 00:05:56
A meeting outside of your normal. 00:06:01
Meeting calendar. 00:06:05
An emergency meeting would be called for an emergency purpose and can have less than 24 hours notice. 00:06:06
I've only experienced a few of those. 00:06:12
If storm damage emergency events. 00:06:15
Those kinds of things from time to time can necessitate an emergency meeting. 00:06:19
There one thing to be cautious of our chance social gatherings and social media activity. 00:06:24
Because you can inadvertently step into what would be required to be an open meeting. 00:06:31
If you have a social gathering with three or more of you present. 00:06:37
You begin discussion or talking about. 00:06:41
City Council business and similarly if you have a social media thread or. 00:06:45
Text message string or an e-mail string. 00:06:50
That turns into a substantive discussion about City Council business. 00:06:52
That would have to be stopped and then held in an open meeting. 00:06:56
There's a criminal penalty for violation of the act of Class B misdemeanor that's up to six months jail and $1000 fine. 00:07:00
For violations and again we talked a little bit about it, electronic messaging, but just be careful of that. 00:07:07
Also any kind of electronic communication during the meeting. 00:07:14
Either among each other or to outside parties about the substance of the meeting. 00:07:18
Is considered a violation of the Act. 00:07:24
And is not something that should occur. 00:07:26
The one exception to that? 00:07:29
That I usually advise clients on is. What if you have to send a text message that would be. 00:07:31
To the mayor, to the recorder or to me that would say, are we following the right procedure? 00:07:37
Or something like that if you can't get their attention by. 00:07:43
You know, signaling or asking that question. 00:07:46
That might be OK, but. 00:07:49
Any conversation about the substance of what you're considering. 00:07:51
Or what's on the agenda would be inappropriate other than during. 00:07:54
The open meeting and spoken orally during the meeting. 00:07:58
I want to turn quickly to the Municipal Officers and Employees Ethics Act. We. 00:08:02
Do ethics act training annually and then annually members of the City Council are required to. 00:08:06
Make ethics disclosures. 00:08:12
There are 4 categories of prohibited behavior. They are first use of office for personal benefit. 00:08:14
And second, being paid or compensated for assistance with a transaction involving the city. 00:08:21
3rd if you have a business regulated by the city that isn't disclosed. 00:08:29
If you have a business doing business with the city, that isn't disclosed. 00:08:35
If you have an investment that would create a conflict of interest with the city. 00:08:40
Or if you want to induce anybody else to violate the ACT. 00:08:45
Use of office for personal benefit is prohibited and it's a criminal offense and it is mandatory dismissal or removal from the 00:08:49
public. 00:08:53
Office. 00:08:58
Rescission of transactions and the city keeps the benefit. 00:09:00
If that occurs. 00:09:04
You cannot disclose or improperly use private, controlled, or protected information. Those terms are defined by. 00:09:06
The Government Records Access and Management Act. You can't use that information to further your own economic interests or to 00:09:13
secure special privileges or exemptions for yourself or others. 00:09:18
Similarly, you can't use your official position to further your economic interests or to secure privileges. 00:09:23
You can't knowingly receive take. 00:09:29
Seek or solicit a gift of substantial value or substantial economic benefit tantamount to a gift. 00:09:31
There are some exceptions to the gift rule. 00:09:38
You can receive an occasional non pecuniary gift of less than $50. Non pecuniary just means not cash or money value. 00:09:41
You can't accept awards presented for your public service. 00:09:50
You can't accept a bona fide loan. 00:09:54
Given through the ordinary course of business. 00:09:57
And then there are exceptions for political campaign contributions. 00:10:02
And then again, there are criminal penalties that have fixed all of these things. 00:10:09
If you ever are to receive or agree to receive money for assisting in a transaction involving the city, so it would mean if 00:10:15
somebody approaches you and says. 00:10:20
I'm looking for a permit from the city or I'm looking to do business with the city. Will you help me? 00:10:25
If you agree to help them. 00:10:34
And to receive money for that, you have to make a disclosure. It has to be made to the. 00:10:35
The mayor and disclosed in an open meeting. 00:10:41
If you're an elected, appointed official, if you're an employee of the city, it has to be made to a supervisor. 00:10:44
Or anybody involved in that disclosure has to include? 00:10:49
Certain information that describes the transaction of the people involved. 00:10:54
And the timing for that kind of disclosure is important. 00:10:58
It must be made at least 10 days before the agreement or 10 days before receipt of compensation, whichever is earlier. 00:11:02
And I would just say please, if anybody approaches you to. 00:11:09
For help. 00:11:12
With a transaction involving the city. 00:11:14
If you're able to do it. 00:11:17
Decline that. If you're not able to decline, please make a phone call to me or to the mayor. 00:11:18
And we can walk you through the procedures and help keep you safe. 00:11:25
In that kind of a circumstance. 00:11:29
In addition to that, you have to make. 00:11:32
A disclosure during an open meeting. 00:11:34
Before that kind of transaction is considered by the Council. 00:11:36
If you have an interest in a business regulated by the city, disclosure is required. You have to disclose your position, the 00:11:40
nature and value of the interest. 00:11:44
And the increase? 00:11:48
In value or ownership. 00:11:51
If and again. 00:11:53
If you have interest in a business that is doing business with the city, you similarly have to just make a disclosure. 00:11:56
You also have to make that disclosure in. 00:12:03
A public meeting and make sure that it's entered into the minutes. 00:12:06
Of that meeting. 00:12:10
If you have a conflict of interest, again disclosure is required in an open meeting. A conflict is quote any personal interest or 00:12:11
investment. 00:12:16
That relates to an item being considered by the Council. 00:12:21
And then again, if you induce anyone else to violate any provision of the ACT that. 00:12:24
Has with it a criminal penalty. 00:12:29
Criminal penalties vary. It's based on the dollar value of the compensation, the conflict or the assistance. 00:12:31
And again, it has to be knowingly. 00:12:37
There is a penalty though that is mandatory and it's that if you have that kind of violation. 00:12:41
You shall be dismissed from employment or removed from office. 00:12:47
And that transaction rescinded. 00:12:50
So that's everything on open meetings and. 00:12:53
The Ethics Act. I'm happy to answer questions here or to answer questions offline if you have them. 00:12:56
Tony or Pam will distribute to you the. 00:13:03
The annual. 00:13:06
Ethics disclosure forms, I would just urge you take whatever time you need to fill that out and make sure that it's comprehensive 00:13:08
and complete. 00:13:11
If you have questions about the information that has to be included or submitted with that. 00:13:16
Please let me know and I'd be happy to help you. 00:13:21
Make sure that it's filled out correctly. 00:13:23
Though keep in mind as you fill it out that these are public records. They're not protected or private or confidential. 00:13:25
And there's a new requirement they be posted on the city website. 00:13:32
That's great. Thank you. And we will keep an eye out for that information. 00:13:36
And then? 00:13:41
If you guys do have additional questions or want even further training, there's a link that Pam can send you that you can go 00:13:43
through and continue to get further training if you would like so. 00:13:48
With that, we'll go ahead and move on to our business items 3.1, Code of Conduct Ordinance 2025, Dash 01. And Jamie will also be 00:13:53
presenting this as well. 00:13:59
Expect there will be some discussion on this item so. 00:14:05
If you would, I want to give a few orienting remarks and then. 00:14:08
We can discuss and I can give you my advice on it and then. 00:14:12
If there are things you'd like to modify or. 00:14:16
Or talk about we can do that. 00:14:19
The Vineyard City is growing and maturing as a city. 00:14:21
And uh. 00:14:25
One of the things state code requires is that the city adopt rules of order and procedure. 00:14:26
To include quote, parliamentary order and procedure, ethical behavior and civil discourse. 00:14:31
Those are the things in Utah Code section 10-3-606. 00:14:38
Vineyard historically has accomplished that with. 00:14:43
Fairly brief statement in city code that relates to those things. Adopts Robert's Rules of Order. We did some work last year to 00:14:46
formalize. 00:14:51
Some aspects of the procedure, especially as it related to. 00:14:56
Interactions between council members and staff and how to request information, how to get things on agendas, how the meetings and 00:15:00
the meeting conduct and those kinds of things would occur. 00:15:05
One of the things that we. 00:15:11
Didn't tackle with. 00:15:13
Those ordinance changes was ethical behavior and civil discourse and so. 00:15:15
In preparing this year and doing the training. 00:15:20
Ethics and Open and Public Meetings act. 00:15:24
The thought was that it's probably time to put into place a formal code of conduct. 00:15:26
That spells out line by line and lists out what the expectations are in the city. 00:15:32
Of both the City Council and other boards, commissions committees. 00:15:38
For ethical behavior and civil discourse. 00:15:42
So I want to read this statement from the introduction of the code of conduct because I think it spells out better than I could 00:15:45
say by memory. 00:15:48
What the intent is behind the document and it simply is. 00:15:51
Elected and appointed officials hold positions of trust and responsibility. 00:15:56
This code of conduct establishes expectations for professional behavior, accountability, and ethical decision making. 00:16:00
To promote effective governance and public confidence. 00:16:07
It shall apply to all members of the City Council boards, committees and commissions in the City of Vineyard. 00:16:10
And I want to, I should say when it, when it says, shall apply to all of those bodies and all of those entities. 00:16:16
Laws apply prospectively, not retroactively. 00:16:22
And so this would be a code of conduct that would apply at the time you adopt it and then forward it. You can't use it to go and. 00:16:26
You know, look back at something somebody did. 00:16:33
Six years ago, or six days ago, or six weeks ago? 00:16:35
And find that it's a violation of the code of conduct. 00:16:39
It just wouldn't be right to hold somebody to account to a rule that they didn't know or that wasn't spoken or written down. 00:16:42
So the intention here is to write. 00:16:49
Those things down. 00:16:51
The Code of Conduct has a few different categories in it. The first category is general responsibilities. The second category is 00:16:53
legal and ethical standards. 00:16:57
The next category is meeting protocols, and then there's a category unprohibited conduct. 00:17:03
And then after that there's a section that deals with violations and how violations would be treated so. 00:17:07
I want to just go. 00:17:14
Through quickly what is in these categories and each of you the dais have a copy of the. 00:17:15
Most recent version of the code of conduct. Will you clarify this has been adjusted since the public it has. It's a little bit 00:17:23
different than what was in. 00:17:27
The online version, a few council members reached out to me with suggestions. They were really good, helpful suggestions, so I 00:17:32
incorporated those. 00:17:36
I don't know whether those Council members suggestions will be. 00:17:40
Agreeable among you all. You know, that's something you may want to talk about today and justice. Go through the document and make 00:17:44
sure that you're happy and comfortable with it. 00:17:47
I thought they were really helpful useful clarifying suggestions. 00:17:51
Brett Phaneuf this morning, and it was a really helpful conversation to go through. 00:17:56
Some of the concerns that he had, and I should talk about the genesis of the document. I didn't create it out of whole cloth. 00:18:00
There are a number of other cities that have. 00:18:07
Codes of conduct. 00:18:10
And so I did. 00:18:12
A little bit of research to pull the codes of conduct from a few other cities and then tried to adapt those to. 00:18:15
Our needs here in Vineyard. 00:18:22
And then include them in the document. 00:18:24
On the section about legal and ethical standards, it really is a brief restatement of what your legal obligations are. So those 00:18:26
obligations exist whether you do or do not. 00:18:31
Adopt the code of conduct. 00:18:36
The general responsibilities. The meeting protocols. 00:18:39
And some of the prohibited conduct. 00:18:42
Have some bearing. 00:18:45
In law, but they really are statements that are intended to apply here to the standard that you wish. 00:18:47
For your council to have so. 00:18:55
The just to go through it briefly on the general responsibilities there are. 00:18:57
Four different things. There's a commitment to public service. 00:19:04
There's a commitment to respect other people to basically. 00:19:07
Operate and act in a collaborative way. 00:19:11
Make sure all voices are heard. Make sure all people are treated with dignity. 00:19:14
There is a statement that you'll comply with the law. 00:19:18
Both the US Constitution, the state constitution. 00:19:22
State, county and federal and city laws. 00:19:25
And then there's an oath of the oath of office that you already take, and then a pledge. 00:19:30
That you'll behave and conduct yourself in a professional way. 00:19:35
On the legal and ethical standards, there's a restatement of your obligations as it relates to confidentiality. 00:19:39
To conflicts of interest and to transparency. 00:19:45
And then two commitments that relate to. 00:19:49
Authority respecting your authority and the authority of others and then. 00:19:52
Personal conduct. 00:19:57
And that's simply avoiding personal attacks, bullying. 00:19:58
Blackmail or any kind of course of behavior. 00:20:02
And then under meeting protocols, there's three things that you'll prepare for meetings and arrive prepare prepared that you'll. 00:20:05
Showed the quorum during the meetings by. 00:20:13
Following established procedures. Refraining from disruptive behavior. 00:20:15
Or improper use of electronic devices during meetings. 00:20:20
And that you'll adhere to meeting rules and to respect the authority of the chair. 00:20:24
In maintaining order during meetings, again remembering that this would apply both to the Council but the other. 00:20:29
Boards, commissions, committees within the city. 00:20:36
And then on prohibitive conduct, there are two things. One is abusive position. 00:20:39
So not using your position for personal gain and respecting the. 00:20:44
Appropriate boundaries between your position and the position of others. 00:20:48
And then harassment and discrimination that you'll refrain from actions that would be. 00:20:52
Hostile, discriminatory or harassing. 00:20:58
On violations there we. 00:21:02
Have categorized violations in two ways. There's minor violations and serious violations. 00:21:04
Violations, I should note, are permissive. It's not. 00:21:09
You don't have to impose violations. Violations are available. 00:21:13
If a person who is violating the code of conduct. 00:21:17
Doesn't take kind of urging or requests to behave in the right way. 00:21:23
And so you may impose violations. You're not required. 00:21:28
But if you impose them there, we put two different categories and the reason was thinking that. 00:21:33
For a minor violations it would be. 00:21:39
By a majority vote for a serious violation that would have a little more severe consequences it would require. 00:21:42
A 2/3 vote of the council, so it couldn't be done just by a simple majority. 00:21:49
The minor violations are things like disrupting meeting behavior, so speaking out of turn, using electronic devices, Failure, 00:21:54
failure to prepare. 00:21:58
Unprofessional conduct Miscommitments. 00:22:03
Minor social media missteps so if you inadvertently shared misinformation or. 00:22:08
Misstate something on social media. 00:22:15
Or if there are minor ethical concerns, so maybe forgetting to disclose or or making an unintentional error. 00:22:18
In that way than we could correct it. 00:22:27
You know, in a. 00:22:30
Unless visible or a less. 00:22:31
Severe way that would still allow you to carry on as a member of the Council, but not. 00:22:34
I'm not going. 00:22:39
Ignored, uh. 00:22:41
And then, under serious violations, these would be disruptions that really affect the Council's ability to function effectively. 00:22:43
And I'm going to need to make an edit I see already there because this will apply broader than just the City Council. 00:22:50
So this would be disrespect or hostility that is truly disruptive of meetings in a more severe way. 00:22:56
That harms or effects individuals. 00:23:04
Confidentiality breaches so sharing private, protected or sensitive information that you obtained through your role with the city. 00:23:06
Failing to safeguard documents or conversations or data that's protected by grandma or other laws. 00:23:14
You are. From time to time we'll get information that relates to. 00:23:21
Personnel decisions. 00:23:26
Property decisions. 00:23:28
That may not be ready for public consumption until it's time for an action to come before the City Council. 00:23:30
And for those kinds of things, you do have an obligation to keep them confidential. 00:23:36
Abuse of authority. 00:23:41
So going beyond your authority, disruption of council functions. 00:23:43
Any kind of legal or ethical violations of a severe nature. 00:23:48
Severe neglect of duties or severe use of social media platforms to incite hostility, attack people, misrepresent council 00:23:54
maliciously. 00:23:59
Or posting content that violates ethical guidelines. 00:24:04
Or compromise the city interests for minor violations it would. 00:24:08
If you choose to enforce. 00:24:12
It would be a verbal reprimand in an open meeting, a letter. 00:24:15
Maybe a loss of committee or board assignment, or a loss of an ability to meet or liaise with staff. 00:24:19
If it's a serious violation, it could result in formal censure. 00:24:25
Suspension from leadership roles within the city. Removal from meetings. 00:24:29
Restriction on privileges. 00:24:33
As a council member. 00:24:36
And then there's a category in here of referral to authorities and that's always something that has to be considered because there 00:24:37
are. 00:24:41
If you have. 00:24:46
Illegal missteps, then we would have to refer those on each of us has a duty to. 00:24:48
Carry that kind of thing out regardless, but we wanted to include it here just as a signal. 00:24:53
On that. 00:24:58
The code of conduct will be included in. 00:24:59
Annual training along with our Ethics and Open and Public meetings act and then it includes with it. 00:25:02
A pledge of professional conduct that. 00:25:08
Each member of the council. Each member of a board, A committee. 00:25:11
Would or a Commission? 00:25:15
Would be asked to review and sign every year. 00:25:18
As their commitment to abide. 00:25:20
By the code of conduct. 00:25:23
I have. 00:25:25
Way too long, but I hope that was a useful orientation as to the document and what it's intended to accomplish. 00:25:26
And I'm again, I'm here as a resource and I'm happy to answer any questions that. 00:25:33
Any of you all may have. 00:25:38
And this is your time to. 00:25:40
Talk about the document and make sure that it's something you're comfortable with as well. But I. 00:25:43
I do think it's in keeping with best practices, certainly with what other cities do and AS. 00:25:47
Your city grows and matures. I think this is an important thing to have in place. 00:25:53
That's great. Thank you, Jamie. 00:25:57
Council, I know you were able to send in commentary and thoughts is do you have any questions? Is there anything that you want to 00:25:59
change? 00:26:03
And now you're trying to kind of discuss and go through that. 00:26:08
If you guys are feeling really comfortable with it, we can go ahead and. 00:26:11
Move it forward, but take your time and kind of. 00:26:16
Double check and go through the document. 00:26:21
Jamie, a question I had is on the consequences for violations. 00:26:34
We're talking about votes. 00:26:39
And I was looking at. 00:26:40
A couple of surrounding cities and how they they've. 00:26:42
Outline some of this in the question I have as much so that we. 00:26:45
Everybody hears an answer. 00:26:49
Is. 00:26:51
How is this process initiated? 00:26:52
You could choose to put more detail in this if you if you wanted. 00:26:58
About how it would be initiated and how it would happen but. 00:27:02
I think the way it. 00:27:06
Wouldn't happen is you would have to place it on an agenda and vote. 00:27:07
And so. 00:27:12
Could not happen by definition in secret. 00:27:13
It would have to be taken in an open meeting, it would have to be noticed as part of an open meeting, and then there would be. 00:27:16
A discussion. You can take time in closed sessions to talk about individual character, competence, those kinds of things. 00:27:23
But any action that you took to enforce the code of conduct would have to happen openly. 00:27:31
You would follow the same procedures that you follow right now in terms of placing things on an agenda, so it could either be 00:27:37
placed. 00:27:41
On an agenda by the mayor or by any 2 council members that wish to have it on an agenda. 00:27:45
And then you would vote next as you normally do. 00:27:50
For a significant violation, I think you would have to do it by roll call vote just because you have to make sure that you hit 00:27:55
that 2/3 majority. 00:27:59
And that's in keeping with. 00:28:03
I think the appropriate level of. 00:28:05
Unanimity to make that. 00:28:08
That that severe of a decision about somebody. 00:28:10
You have not opened this up yet. There's still City Council talking about it. 00:28:39
That's right. 00:28:45
Any comments? 00:29:42
So I'm just I'm curious what's what's the process? 00:29:44
Right, because this is all. 00:29:47
It's it's wise, right? 00:29:49
And I like that it's from today going forward. 00:29:51
There's just a lot to unpack here. 00:29:54
So what's the process because like here? 00:29:58
Avoid personal attacks, Bullying. 00:30:00
Blackmail, obviously. 00:30:03
Coercive behavior. 00:30:04
So, so for instance, like if I feel personally attacked and I bring it to you or bring it to the council or. 00:30:05
You know what I mean? That's. 00:30:12
It feels like a broad objective, yeah. 00:30:14
A broad statement. 00:30:19
Does that make sense? 00:30:21
Like blackmail obviously is illegal, but personnel attacks, Bullying. 00:30:23
And coercive behavior. 00:30:27
Right. In a perfect world, everyone would just behave in a professional manner. 00:30:29
Right. And so? 00:30:33
This is so wise. I think it's. 00:30:35
Really, really important and I do think. 00:30:37
You know we need to. 00:30:40
Think about. 00:30:42
Everything going forward right and get to the place where we all agree this is this is a better way to run a city than. 00:30:43
You know, maybe some of the things we've seen so. 00:30:50
So how would that? 00:30:52
How do you actually initiate? Can I add to your question? 00:30:55
It's it's kind of I feel like when I'm reading this. 00:31:01
I'm really happy with. 00:31:06
The general goals here, we're trying to. 00:31:08
Work together. 00:31:12
We're trying to work together. We're trying to have. 00:31:14
And we were elected officials that are trying to represent the public, and the better we can get along, the more we can respect 00:31:17
one another. 00:31:20
We're going to have more success, right? But what my concern is, is by. 00:31:23
Having. 00:31:28
Broad rules that have consequences. I think we all need to feel comfortable. 00:31:30
With those consequences, I do appreciate for the major. 00:31:37
Violations. I'm sorry, the serious violations that it is a 2/3 majority vote. 00:31:41
But I do agree with you, Sarah, that. 00:31:46
And if someone is. 00:31:49
Through politics, we all kind of have had to gain this thicker skin. 00:31:54
Umm, I would rather not. People bring up personal attacks. I would rather people not. 00:32:00
Bullying you, specifically blackmail, is illegal. 00:32:05
But umm. 00:32:09
I think we have to be careful because. 00:32:11
I just, it's just so subjective that I feel like. 00:32:14
I don't feel like it's bad, I just. 00:32:19
I think more than anything. 00:32:22
We've only had about 24 hours to digest it. 00:32:23
The public has seemed to be really upset. 00:32:27
I'm using my hands a lot and my. 00:32:29
But we've. 00:32:32
I guess I'm curious. 00:32:37
For your response to Sarah's question that I added to. 00:32:39
You could certainly put something in this if you wish to have. 00:32:44
Formal process outlines and. 00:32:48
And required before. 00:32:51
Any of the consequences here would a fix? 00:32:54
Well, because I mean to go, I guess, on the other end of it. 00:32:56
A lot of this is already in state law. A lot of this is. 00:33:00
Already, Claire, we're just kind of reinforcing that as a united front, I would hope. 00:33:05
And so I don't see. 00:33:10
I just wish we could all. 00:33:14
Get along. 00:33:16
I do too, and I think we wish we were in. 00:33:19
We were in Mayberry and didn't require something like this, so state law defers the cities to establish. 00:33:22
The procedures they would follow to self enforce. 00:33:29
And so. 00:33:32
This document really it needs to be your document and something that you're comfortable with. If it isn't, then. 00:33:35
We should get it to that place. 00:33:43
And and then adopt it. 00:33:45
So I'm hearing that one of the gaps you'd like filled is to put into place some kind of formal procedure. 00:33:48
For how you would bring something forward, how you would consider it. 00:33:55
And then how you would? 00:33:59
Voter make a decision. 00:34:01
On those kinds of things, and I can certainly have that. 00:34:03
Would that be in Section 7? 00:34:07
Let me see. 00:34:13
I think that's page five. Yeah. We would probably add another section after that. There would be a Section 8 that would just be 00:34:16
procedures, so. 00:34:20
It would. 00:34:25
Similar to other procedural requirements you know we would identify. 00:34:27
If you had an issue or a concern. 00:34:31
Where would you take that? 00:34:34
How would it be considered? How would it be investigated? How would it be placed on an agenda? 00:34:36
And then how would you consider the action before you vote? 00:34:41
On that kind of item. 00:34:45
Do you have any? 00:34:48
Are do you have thoughts on? 00:34:50
What procedures are important to you and that you want in that section? 00:34:52
Brett, do you have claps on this? I feel like you're. 00:35:06
You saw my finger reaching for the button. 00:35:10
Yeah, I'd like to see. 00:35:15
Something in there? 00:35:18
That requires. 00:35:20
Well, not just. 00:35:22
Discussion. 00:35:24
But I I think if we went down this path with any council member. 00:35:25
Or I guess we're also talking about appointed officials on commissions, correct And. 00:35:30
That everybody has to say something, including the person that is under scrutiny. 00:35:35
Because I think I agree with. 00:35:45
Marty, that isn't. 00:35:48
That some of this is very subjective. 00:35:50
In terms of how you interpret it. 00:35:55
And some situations might be such that. 00:35:58
Yeah, I mean. 00:36:02
Someone might get offended. 00:36:04
But at what point does that constitute? 00:36:07
Harassment or bullying? 00:36:10
Which are which are not okay behaviors. 00:36:12
But I think if the procedures required. 00:36:15
A discussion. 00:36:20
That maybe that creates a path. 00:36:22
For understanding. 00:36:26
And not just punishment. 00:36:31
One thing can I? 00:36:36
Can I restate what? 00:36:38
What Councilman Clawson just said to make sure I understand it, I think what you want is. 00:36:41
Notice to the person complained of. 00:36:47
And then some kind of informal conversation before it comes forward for formal action. 00:36:49
And then on top of that, that they have an opportunity to be heard in the formal setting. 00:36:54
Before any kind of decisions, Do I have that right? Correct. OK. 00:37:00
Would it be? I know that in most. 00:37:04
Employment settings, there's like 3 strikes you're out type of a thing like if they've been warned. 00:37:07
Then they've been. I feel like it would be appropriate if someone felt that they were being harassed over and over. 00:37:14
That it could come to the Council and be a public discussion to protect the members of the Council or whatever group. 00:37:21
It doesn't mean they're going to be reprimanded. It doesn't mean that we're going to censor them. I feel like it's worth. 00:37:27
Protecting people within the positions, Let's say it's on Planning Commission, let's take council out of it. 00:37:33
What if there's someone on Planning Commission that is constantly harassing another member of Planning Commission to the point 00:37:38
where they just want to give up? 00:37:42
I think it's worth having a conversation as a group. 00:37:46
To make sure that we're protecting. 00:37:49
Our community volunteers. 00:37:52
But also having that. 00:37:57
Side conversation. 00:37:59
Where we're giving them that one. 00:38:01
We're helping them understand that it's an issue and then. 00:38:03
If those warnings aren't upheld, then you go to the group. 00:38:07
So the way that we operate now is kind of like that. It's it's what Brett is saying. 00:38:11
We let you know what the expectations are. 00:38:15
You kind of give an idea of what's been going on. We hope that you're going to not do that. We talk about it collaboratively, 00:38:19
privately and discretely. 00:38:23
And then when it happens again, we notify you that you've done it knowingly. 00:38:28
Would you say that, Jamie, that's kind of how we work and operate is that I think that's how we. 00:38:34
Function informally, you know, we've never. 00:38:38
We've never put any of our conduct expectations in writing. 00:38:41
That's why we're having a conversation today, because I. 00:38:46
I think if you don't put them in writing then. 00:38:49
No, there's no true agreement about what they are. 00:38:52
And sometimes what people's expectations are going to align with what the. 00:38:55
The rest of the group believes that to be. 00:39:00
Or what one individual agrees with it to be. 00:39:02
So the. 00:39:05
But do you feel like that provides that protection you were talking about, Marty? 00:39:09
I think we would want to. 00:39:16
Try to find a way. I mean what I'm hearing is a real desire to have. 00:39:18
The procedure written in the Code of Conduct. 00:39:22
And I think that's appropriate and we could we could write that out and then have that. 00:39:25
In there, I'm looking on my computer here at. The code of conduct at South Salt Lake uses and. 00:39:31
Have a couple others that I pulled that do have some process in them. 00:39:37
And so we could, certainly. 00:39:42
Borrow from that and make sure that that kind of process is included. 00:39:44
The South Salt Lake process tracks. 00:39:48
Pretty consistently with what? 00:39:50
Brett's suggestion was and that there be some kind of. 00:39:53
Notice to the individual involved there be some kind of informal. 00:39:57
Conciliation that would occur as part of that. 00:40:02
I think what we might want to create in the policy, and I guess I'm asking for feedback here on this point is. 00:40:04
There are certain kinds of conduct. 00:40:11
Violations that would be so severe that maybe. 00:40:13
You wouldn't want to deal with it informally. I'm thinking if there was an. 00:40:16
And I this is not said. 00:40:21
Relating to any of you or any of your conduct but it. 00:40:24
You know, things have happened in other cities recently that have been in the news where. 00:40:27
If you were to have sexual misconduct or sexual harassment or those kinds of things. 00:40:32
I think having the person that complaints of the behavior and the person they're complaining of. 00:40:37
Have an informal conversation is a bad idea. It actually. 00:40:42
Makes the situation worse and increases the liability on the part of the city. 00:40:46
That you may need to have a process for those kind of violations to just bring them straight to the Council. 00:40:51
Or straight to law enforcement and. 00:40:57
Work through them that way so. 00:41:00
I'll take a stab at that. 00:41:02
I think I think that's helpful and useful. 00:41:04
Feedback. 00:41:06
OK. Did you have anything? 00:41:09
I'm just going to let other people go 1st and then have their comments, OK? 00:41:11
I I think I'd actually like to hear your thoughts because I feel like you've been pretty vocal about it. 00:41:18
How many citizens were involved in this? 00:41:27
Here by the raise of hands. 00:41:29
Yeah, I'm sorry if you're going to invite the public. 00:41:32
I'm just trying to raise my hand. 00:41:36
No one. 00:41:38
Umm, that wasn't a response to your question, it was a response. 00:41:42
The the mayors, that chair of the meeting and so I I think this is the time for council to talk and right there may be a later 00:41:47
opportunity here, yeah. 00:41:50
Umm, who started and requested this? 00:41:54
Effort. 00:42:01
You're asking me? Yeah. 00:42:05
On this item to do this exercise. 00:42:07
The mayor has asked for this and put it on the agenda. Do we know when it was when you started to do it? 00:42:11
Like when you initiated that request, it was a couple of weeks ago. 00:42:18
Yeah, a few weeks ago. 00:42:23
From a. 00:42:28
I found out about this effort yesterday. 00:42:29
24 hours before the meeting. 00:42:34
And I got the. 00:42:36
Notification at the same time as the public. 00:42:38
And I think that. 00:42:43
Code of conducts are awesome. 00:42:47
I think that if all of us took three people. 00:42:49
And we gave them a month to read through line by line about what they felt our standards were. 00:42:54
And it was representational of the committee. 00:43:00
And they came back with. 00:43:04
How and what I would, I would probably support it and look at those documents because I believe that we're accountable to them and 00:43:05
the values within Vineyard City. 00:43:10
Nonsense, we're supposed to be. 00:43:15
Doing that I. 00:43:18
Umm, I'm. 00:43:24
Concerned that none of us were involved in the drafting of the. 00:43:26
Individual things, even Jamie doing it, but like. 00:43:30
Let's all like, since this is a legislative process of what our code is or not, I, I. 00:43:33
I just feel very uncomfortable, like I don't. 00:43:39
You know, being thrown at it. 00:43:41
Just for clarity since you're moving on. 00:43:46
Each year my responsibility is to make sure that we have the right trainings and appropriate things added to our agenda so. 00:43:49
Last year. 00:43:57
Financial disclosures and making sure that we have the ethics reports, make sure that you guys get certified and make sure that as 00:43:59
we're moving forward, we have. 00:44:03
The ability to move forward properly as a council and really function and complete our business so other council members that have 00:44:09
the opportunity to. 00:44:13
Umm talk about this and be involved in this and some of you guys are seeing it in proper notice but. 00:44:18
Like we talked about earlier, I think really coming together on us and and making sure that it's done right. 00:44:25
And so that we can all agree on it, I think is the goal for our city as we grow. 00:44:33
And as we get larger as a community, this is something that we should be able to take on. 00:44:38
And assure our residents that. 00:44:43
We are professional and transparent and ethical. 00:44:45
And I feel like anybody that would sign that is displaying good leadership. And so if you have something today that you want to 00:44:49
change or you want to review it longer, I think that request is satisfactory. 00:44:55
Yeah. 00:45:02
I think the minimal requirement of 24 hours notice is not good government practice on something so lengthy, Mayor. 00:45:04
And I apologize to all the citizens that had. 00:45:11
Change our schedule around this is so rudimentary. 00:45:14
It could have been conducted in tomorrow's meeting. 00:45:18
So can I? 00:45:21
Can I interject because we make we make our meetings quite a few of these things I need to do better on. 00:45:23
I'm sorry. 00:45:29
Now just you know, we set up our legislative agenda with our representatives for tonight at 6:00 and to have a meeting scheduled 00:45:31
at the same exact time. 00:45:35
And given 24 hours notice, it's. 00:45:41
Problematic, right? 00:45:44
Umm, there's a lot of issues that I have in this. I don't know if we want to go line by line through each one. I I would like to 00:45:45
hear your issues. I have no problem taking more time on this. 00:45:51
I would like if you have specific issues, I think we're all trying to share those. I think are we going to be doing public comment 00:45:58
first or we usually? 00:46:01
It's up to the mayor. It's not. 00:46:06
In the agenda, I think, I mean, reading the Council's comments and the things that you're asking, there will need to be another 00:46:08
iteration of this that would come to the Council for action. 00:46:13
Which is just fine. 00:46:18
My perspective on this is. 00:46:21
It's not being done behind closed doors. We're here in a public meeting. 00:46:24
And I have no problem going through. 00:46:28
I hope is the draft. None of the document is that. 00:46:31
You all will provide detailed feedback so that we can modify the document and make sure that it fits with the code of conduct that 00:46:34
the Council wants. 00:46:39
I did get really helpful feedback from other members of the council that phoned and said, hey, what about this section, what about 00:46:45
this language? 00:46:49
And I think if you have those kind of suggestions, that would be really productive. 00:46:53
And helpful. 00:46:57
And then when it comes back to the council, it can have a little bit more of that information in it. 00:46:58
Sarah, you have a comment. 00:47:04
Oh, I just, I just wanted to remind. 00:47:06
Council and. 00:47:09
Hold away that. 00:47:11
The mayor's been really clear on all of this stuff. If there's something we don't feel comfortable with, sorry. If there's 00:47:13
anything on the agenda we don't feel comfortable with, we can ask it to be postponed. 00:47:18
That's that's been the case from. 00:47:24
The whole time I've been sitting up here. 00:47:26
And so we need to. 00:47:28
Make sure that. 00:47:30
That that's made clear to the citizens. There's never been anything that's been pushed to the point where we have to vote on it 00:47:32
right now. 00:47:35
She's always been very clear that if there's anything, I'm. 00:47:38
Not comfortable or any of us are not comfortable with, we can push it out. 00:47:41
And give their community time to look at it if they have input. I had a few people reach out to me. 00:47:45
Today that had suggestions and I. 00:47:50
So I'm pretty sure. 00:47:54
I feel better about. 00:47:56
Taking time to go over everything. 00:47:58
I feel like there's a lot of really good things in here that nobody should have a problem with. 00:48:00
But again, I think. 00:48:06
To take time to go through everything line by line and make sure we get it, we get it right. 00:48:09
So not just for us today, but. 00:48:14
You know all of. 00:48:17
The up and coming. 00:48:19
City government. So from what I'm hearing is the next meeting we could have like a 30 minute. 00:48:21
Around the room work session and kind of work through line by line and adjust it. I like that idea. 00:48:26
Instead of doing that this evening. 00:48:31
Well, what about? Well, I'd I'd love some thoughts today that. 00:48:33
Um. 00:48:40
David Larae would love to so with the citizens. I'd love to open it up. I know more people come in. 00:48:43
There, there are so many things in here that are subjective to personal attacks or bullying and I kind of look at the things like 00:48:49
that have happened to me this past year. 00:48:53
Whether it be? 00:48:58
You know, my father's getting sued or suing somebody or making $5,000,000, you know, false claims. 00:48:59
Against me by staff or counsel? 00:49:10
I don't, even though they're false. 00:49:14
I don't know why we would. 00:49:16
Vote to censure them. 00:49:21
I hate to say this but. 00:49:23
You just come forth and prove that they're not true. I mean, I'm. 00:49:25
It's sad enough. I mean, I think I could get almost everyone in this room for misinformation and maybe they would even get it on 00:49:30
me. 00:49:33
For not understanding the full complexities of it so. 00:49:37
I don't, I don't see why we would control that. I mean, I, I. 00:49:41
Reached out to all the legislators and watched C-SPAN for an hour today and watched them argue. 00:49:45
And then I watch the state of Utah and I was like, wow, we are so nice to each other. And then you're comparatively to what you 00:49:51
see. 00:49:54
Like I don't see any names calling or bullying. In fact I would say the opposite is true is we need to be more transparent and 00:49:58
more. 00:50:03
Not aggressive because I feel like we're very respectful, but. 00:50:09
I feel like we don't get into the weeds of like what what is happening. I think that. 00:50:12
Abuse is so subjective. 00:50:17
That putting that power into the majority's hands to vote. 00:50:20
Of what is or is not abusive? Is it appropriate? I just don't. I don't know how you it's, it's too hard to define. 00:50:25
Same thing with social media like what anyone posts and writes on social media, whether it be true or not I'm I'm learning this 00:50:34
the hard way. You know there's. 00:50:38
10 fake accounts that have. 00:50:43
Followed my family and posted negative things over the past year. 00:50:46
And in speaking with law enforcement, there's nothing illegal that can stop that. 00:50:51
There's they can create the account, they can post it. 00:50:56
And I can go and say, hey, that's not true. And if there's nothing that's against the law from that. And they can even fake who 00:51:00
they are. 00:51:03
And so. 00:51:07
Umm, why would we be able to come in and say well but this person said this? 00:51:08
So I don't know how you legislate that or put that power. 00:51:15
I did see on social media some things today about. 00:51:19
Creating an ethics board of citizens. And that's why I say, well, OK, I could understand taking that power to have it go through 00:51:22
an ethics board if it was representational of the. 00:51:27
Of the body that would go through and. 00:51:32
And look at that and that way things could be handled in a non political standpoint and and whatnot. But. 00:51:34
To be honest with you, what I was told over and over by law enforcement and others is that in the Constitution, elections are 00:51:43
where we choose what our behavior is or isn't. 00:51:47
And we replace people based on that. 00:51:51
And so, you know, you might say abuse of authority. There's a lot of other things in here, like going above and beyond and outside 00:51:56
your authority. 00:52:00
You know we can vote here as a City Council on a specific project. 00:52:05
But I can go and still talk to the county and talk to the legislature about my opinion and and still as a citizen or even as a 00:52:09
council. And you might think that's undermining, but it's. 00:52:14
I'm an elected official and. 00:52:19
Putting that in writing that I can't speak and represent the minority voice and Vineyard. 00:52:21
Is inappropriate. 00:52:25
I mean I agree with 100% with like the laws and. 00:52:28
Calling people by name or visiting people someone's houses or bribes. But all of all of the things that I saw that I agreed with 00:52:31
are always already in state law, so. 00:52:36
The other thing that really concerns me is. 00:52:41
A lot of things that I've been able to find out and get to the bottom of have had to do with. 00:52:44
Protected or what you would say? 00:52:50
You know doc. 00:52:52
When you're trying to ascertain or get to the truth. 00:52:55
You've got to listen to all parties to. 00:52:59
Umm, to establish who is telling the truth and who isn't. 00:53:03
In many cases of the Council. 00:53:08
I have had. I've had to sit there and go OK. 00:53:10
This is what I've been told. And by bringing the third party in. 00:53:12
To ascertain what is or isn't. 00:53:17
It's been needed and as a City Council and and. 00:53:20
I, as a City Councilman, control what I feel is our attorney-client privilege. 00:53:24
Because I'm the client, not. 00:53:30
Not the attorney. 00:53:32
And so certain things I've got to establish what is true. 00:53:33
And so putting in a problem of well, Jake went and spoke with. 00:53:37
And he shared this but. 00:53:45
At the end of the day, he got to what was true. 00:53:46
You know, you have to weigh the public's right to know. 00:53:50
Versus. 00:53:55
Versus their. 00:53:58
The protected document, you know, and I can, and that's a very difficult balance. 00:54:01
And I believe. 00:54:06
Every council member. 00:54:07
Umm, would. 00:54:09
Not want to be restrained on. 00:54:12
Now I don't know if you publish that document online or. 00:54:15
Share that publicly. You have private conversations and say, OK, this is this is what I'm trying to understand. 00:54:18
Because we are oversight, and so our oversight is to try to get to the bottom of what. 00:54:24
Of what things are so. 00:54:30
If my hands are going to be tied. 00:54:32
Hey, I'm going to be written up because. 00:54:35
You went to this HOA person and spoke about this specific thing and, and I can understand like a closed door session is completely 00:54:37
different and there's things that you can't do there. 00:54:42
But those are just some things, and then the differentiation between minor violations and serious violations, I could understand a 00:54:48
board being established. 00:54:54
To go through that in the next month and kind of understand what are. 00:55:01
What is disruptive behavior? What is unprofessional behavior? 00:55:05
But even at the end of the day. 00:55:10
That's going to be subjective to those five people, not the not the citizens that would actually vote on this so. 00:55:11
I don't know, that's my thought. Is obviously a code of conduct would be awesome, but I don't think this is the approach. 00:55:19
Could you send those in red line to Jamie? I think that would be helpful. 00:55:28
I tried to pull out a few of the ones that I thought you didn't like, but. 00:55:33
And I don't know if you caught them all, but I think red lines might be more. Yeah, I can, I, I. 00:55:37
Frankly, struggled to make sense of. 00:55:42
How some of those comments? 00:55:45
Related to the document, so I think red lines would help. 00:55:47
And then there are a few things you said that. 00:55:50
I would just like to correct visa vie the. 00:55:53
Ethics training that we had a few minutes ago, so. 00:55:57
On attorney-client privilege, I'm not sure what specifically you're referring to there, but. 00:56:00
Attorney-client privilege is held by the entity, not by anyone. 00:56:06
Member of the City Council, so I have an obligation to you all. 00:56:11
As the attorney for the organization to keep matters. 00:56:16
Privileged and confidential unless the client. 00:56:20
Authorizes the release of that information, but the client. 00:56:23
Is the city and the council acting together? Acts for the city, not anyone. 00:56:27
Council member so it wouldn't be. 00:56:32
Anyone. Council members decision? 00:56:35
You know whether this is private or this is privileged or this is confidential and then similarly. 00:56:38
You mentioned having to weigh the public's right to know what the classification of a document, and I would. 00:56:44
Remind you and. 00:56:51
I've reminded you before in writing that. 00:56:53
Again, that's not your judgment as to what the classification is of a document. 00:56:56
It's the records officer of the city and then there's a formal process. 00:57:01
Established to determine. 00:57:05
What? What should be? 00:57:07
Shared publicly and what shouldn't be shared publicly? 00:57:10
And you as a council member have an obligation to verify what the classification is of something before. 00:57:13
You share it publicly, so. 00:57:20
I you know, please don't behave in that way without checking 1st to see whether. 00:57:22
You're able to share something that you believe. 00:57:28
Protected, yeah. And I think we would probably want to talk about what is public and private conversations. And I could understand 00:57:31
posting it online at least public or putting it into a public meeting here. 00:57:36
But certain things and issues that we've had over the last year have had to necessitate. 00:57:42
Even in the leadership of our city. 00:57:47
What is true and what isn't? And so I mean, I do in many cases, Jamie Trusty, but in certain judgments of upper leadership. 00:57:51
You have had to verify what is or isn't true, and sometimes it hasn't been true and. 00:57:59
And looking at the law, something isn't true. It's not a protected document. 00:58:05
So if there's something that is dishonest or misleading, I will verify if that is. 00:58:09
And if there's a consequence for it, I'm siding on transparency with citizens. 00:58:15
On what it is. 00:58:20
If it's a $500 fine, that's a $500 fine. 00:58:23
Can I respond to something? Yeah. 00:58:26
So Jake, when you talked about and. 00:58:28
When you talked about how if the Council votes for something. 00:58:31
And then you go and you kind of push your minority agenda. 00:58:36
And the Council votes. Give me an example like. 00:58:40
I feel like I'm using your words. You said that if the council votes for something, but then you go and use your personal contacts 00:58:45
to let them know. I think what you call the minority voice. 00:58:50
To tell them something. 00:58:54
Like, I don't like what the City Council approved. 00:58:57
I don't think we should move forward with this. 00:59:02
But the City Council approved it. I wonder how that differs. This is an honest, sincere question. 00:59:04
Be it having to do with our conduct, having to do with government process or having it do just with the culture of our council. 00:59:11
But if the mayor did that. 00:59:16
You lose your mind. 00:59:20
If we all voted for something, if you don't think that's happening, you're crazy. 00:59:22
OK, I'm saying that's happening, right? No, I have no idea what you're, you'd have to give me an example, but what I'm saying to 00:59:27
you for you to say that. 00:59:31
Yeah, the mayor's doing it, being you're doing be a breath doing it. I'm wondering is that right? Is that appropriate? I will 00:59:36
clarify, no, when the council votes on something, I have to uphold the vote. So it is not occurring. So what about the rest of the 00:59:42
council? If you want to ask for clarity from Jamie on whether or not it. 00:59:48
Were, as the council, supposed to uphold the vote of the council? I think there's probably a clear difference between just talking 00:59:55
about how you don't really like what the majority put in and saying you're representing the people of Vineyard. 01:00:03
And that the people of Vineyard don't want this and you're speaking for the council and saying that there is practices happening 01:00:11
that would. 01:00:15
Make the majority vote. 01:00:20
Not meaningful. It would probably be different and I don't know how that's different in law or conduct. 01:00:24
Yeah, I think you would never go and say hey, the vote was positive. And then obviously I go and say, hey, it voted down. You 01:00:30
could see that as being. 01:00:33
I think I saw a social media post. 01:00:39
Once where you went up. 01:00:41
On to the state delegate to care if I want Milka. Yeah, and you said we don't want your $10 million or something for a bridge to 01:00:43
know where I think your words were. But the council had supported that money. And then you went publicly and said we don't want 01:00:49
it. 01:00:54
So, but you said we. 01:01:01
You said we don't want. 01:01:03
Right. But that's not really representing Vineyard because I feel like, so you'd want to sanction me for that. No, no, no, that's 01:01:06
not right. I'm giving you an example. I'm saying, right, that's what I would be problematic on it, right. 01:01:13
Wish that we could come up with a code of conduct that everyone's like, yeah. 01:01:19
Let's work well together. This is great. 01:01:24
We all agree that we're going to disagree, but we all agree that we want to work together with good government process, right? I, 01:01:26
I don't want to be respectful. I think good government processes argument it, it, it's so helpful. It's, it's competitive. It's, 01:01:31
it's, it's never. 01:01:36
The meaning of the individual. 01:01:42
And it's a it's a healthy debate. And your example of of, yeah, I don't believe that bridge went well, the bridge. 01:01:45
The vote happened that way. 01:01:53
And I didn't like the process and how that went. And, and that's what I'm really scared. That's what I'm scared about. I think 01:01:55
what we can, I think what we can hold on to is this. 01:02:00
Marty is simply stating she feels like something needs to occur when that happens. 01:02:05
In whatever form it is. And you're saying know it legally is the correct, right. And I would say this, you're saying that's a 01:02:11
problem, right? I think it is. And Andre's saying would you sanction me? 01:02:17
And you're saying I wouldn't want to sanction you but. 01:02:23
I think that is important to address. 01:02:27
This this document is for all of us to try to figure out how to best act as a group. 01:02:29
And this subject that we're talking about I think is separate, but I think if we're going to address it. 01:02:36
When the majority votes for something. 01:02:42
That is. 01:02:45
More than the annual. 01:02:47
What is it called? Budget of our entire city. 01:02:51
And you go as a minority and you say you don't want it. 01:02:55
And you speak in a term that's very. 01:03:01
Direct and you say Vineyard doesn't want it. And you're speaking even if intent is for your constituents. 01:03:05
An amount of money that's our entire annual budget. 01:03:11
What we're saying is we hope that's not really happening. 01:03:15
And because we need that money and Wiener needs that money, and that is jeopardizing funding. 01:03:18
And So what we're saying is how would you like us to approach that because it's serious, but for a second. 01:03:23
I'm still talking, just give me a minute. So the idea is. 01:03:30
I imagine. 01:03:35
I'm giving broad context to why what you're saying is important. 01:03:38
And why what she's saying is important and why when you ask something like, would you sanction me? The idea is it's not about 01:03:42
sanctioning you, It's about just. 01:03:47
Saying, hey, we need this funding and if we're going to vote on the majority, just like what you're saying is you would like me to 01:03:52
uphold what you do as a majority. 01:03:56
I think the respect and return. 01:04:00
Is what the Council wants and I believe that everybody can go share your opinions individually. 01:04:02
And say I don't really like what we voted for. 01:04:07
You know, I think you have every right to do that. 01:04:10
But uh. 01:04:13
I think. 01:04:13
Instead of going back and forth all night long about the different things that we disagree on, let's. 01:04:14
Let's come up with something in this document that we do want to see. 01:04:20
And send your red lines in. Send your comments in. 01:04:25
And I think we can look at it as there's some things that don't necessarily relate to us today, but we want that durability for 01:04:28
the future growth of Vineyard in our code of conduct, just like we've been putting in all the documents and some things might 01:04:36
relate to us today. So let's be sure that we do it in a way that does represent the minority and does represent the majority 01:04:43
wherever we each fall in that moment in time. Mayor, can I please go ahead, maybe a procedural way to move forward on this. 01:04:50
Clearly people care about it and they want to get it right. 01:04:59
Which is good. 01:05:02
And then the other thing that is good is. 01:05:05
I work for the Council and so I. 01:05:08
Put pen to paper so you have something to react to and to work through. But really it should be your document. 01:05:10
You can establish as mayor of subcommittee that would take something and then work on it and then report back to the council with 01:05:16
what they come up with. 01:05:20
It sounds like there are. 01:05:25
There is a need for a couple of council members at least to sit down with. 01:05:28
Me and whoever else you would like involved on the staff side. 01:05:34
To just go through the document line by line, identify things that need to be added. 01:05:38
Identify things that need to be clarified. Identify things that. 01:05:42
Fit with what you want that don't fit with what you want. 01:05:47
I'd maybe recommend that you. 01:05:49
Name two members of the council that sit on a subcommittee and then. 01:05:52
Either during the meeting or after the meeting, identify. 01:05:57
If we would like to work with them on the staff side and then we can work on the document and bring it back, we have a meeting on 01:06:01
the 29th. 01:06:04
And we could bring the document back and. 01:06:08
And present it again to the Council and the public. 01:06:11
Council, this is a prohibit you from working on it if you're not on the subcommittee, but is there anybody that would want to be 01:06:14
on it, Jake, do you want to be on it because you would like to? 01:06:18
Fine tooth comment and then anybody else. 01:06:22
OK. Do you guys feel comfortable with that? 01:06:27
Sarah, please go ahead and hold on. It's Saracen. Hold on one second. 01:06:30
So, so it was mentioned in the ethics board. Can somebody explain that? I think that sounds really wise. 01:06:35
Considering the current temperature of that. 01:06:43
The City Council What? What would an ethics board look like? 01:06:45
I mean, if we could pull the decision making process out of, put it back to the citizens and have a a. 01:06:48
A broad based board. 01:06:54
Right. Umm. 01:06:56
Takes out of the political. 01:06:57
The municipal employees, officers and. 01:06:59
Employees Ethics Act has in it. 01:07:02
A reference to. 01:07:05
Two different possibilities for an ethics Commission, I think is what they call it. 01:07:07
There's established a state ethics Commission and so if there are ethics issues. 01:07:11
You can choose the city to refer them and then to have that be the entity that would decide them. 01:07:16
With some independence from the city. 01:07:22
Or you can in lieu of that. 01:07:24
Establish a city ethics Commission. 01:07:27
That would hear those kinds of things. 01:07:30
Most cities do not establish their own efforts Commission simply because. 01:07:32
Communities are small and it can be difficult to find independence. 01:07:38
Within a small city to look at things and to review them, but. 01:07:43
I can pull those details and send them to you. 01:07:48
So. 01:07:53
So Jake and Brett both want to be on the subcommittee. 01:07:55
Is there anything else that I need to do for that? Procedure wise, no. 01:08:00
And everybody feels comfortable with that. 01:08:04
OK, Jake. 01:08:07
I'm looking on Fox News and CNN right now. 01:08:11
I think legal before the electronic thing. 01:08:14
But the senator goes out and right after the vote about Heilgeist this morning called after losing the vote. 01:08:17
Saying that it was ridiculous of their peers. Hypocritical. 01:08:24
And the other and they're just going out and they're. 01:08:28
On the social media and acts and. 01:08:30
Like that, that's gonna happen where you're gonna pass the bridge and it's gonna leave and then they're gonna go to the county and 01:08:33
say they'll vote it this way, but I don't agree with it this way. 01:08:37
And, umm. 01:08:42
The other thing though is. 01:08:44
I think to your point, if it's an independent ethics. 01:08:47
Board and also just. 01:08:51
Having Brett and. 01:08:54
But I would, I would defer to Brett and say. 01:08:56
Let's get three people of you three people. I have 3 people and just let them. 01:08:59
Line by my hypothetical and do high school debate team. 01:09:03
Back and forth this problem, that problem, and I bet you an hour. 01:09:07
A month later, they'd come back with a pretty good this is what we think. And then they throw it up on the social media and. 01:09:12
Hey, what do you think about that? And it would be come back pretty good. 01:09:17
Like that and I would. 01:09:20
I would. I wouldn't do something like that. 01:09:23
I guess all right, moving forward. 01:09:25
Did you want to talk about how the subcommittee will work? Because this is my thought on it. 01:09:28
Anybody on the subcommittee can go talk to anybody they want and ask for their review, and then it will go through the 01:09:33
subcommittee process. 01:09:37
In a way that I imagine you were just going to speak to. 01:09:41
I was going to take. 01:09:45
OK, I want to take us completely off topic and continue this through a different meeting, so if you still have something you'd 01:09:47
like to talk about. 01:09:52
Take your time. 01:09:58
And I think I can. 01:09:59
Do some Sol 13 and ethical debate with Jake. 01:10:02
Because I don't know if it would be 100% productive the way it's going right now. So maybe we can chat about this later. 01:10:08
And if we feel like there's something to add to this? 01:10:14
Great for the subcommittee. 01:10:18
OK. 01:10:20
I'm going to go ahead and call for a motion. Maybe we can move this to our next meeting in January, which is going to be the 29th. 01:10:21
Can I get a motion? 01:10:30
I move to. 01:10:32
To continue. 01:10:36
3.1 Code of Conduct Ordinance 2025, Dash 01 to the January 29th meeting. 01:10:38
OK, I have a first by Marty to move it to the 29th of January. Can I get a second, second, second by Sarah all in favor? 01:10:45
Aye, any opposed? 01:10:53
All right. 01:10:55
I need a motion to go into a closed session. 01:10:58
So moved up. You've got to state it and read it. 01:11:02
Go ahead, Marty. 01:11:07
You have to stand it and read it. 01:11:11
You have to state the letter. 01:11:13
Right, it doesn't have. Oh, it does. It does. 01:11:15
I think it's a. 01:11:19
Now just read this exact I move to go into closed session tonight immediately following the City Council special session and the 01:11:21
City Council chambers to discuss the character of professional competence of physical and mental health of an individual. 01:11:27
All right, I have up first, can I get a second? 01:11:33
Can I note that the Council will. 01:11:36
Conclude its meeting. 01:11:39
After the closet and there will be no action. 01:11:41
Yes. 01:11:43
I need a second second. 01:11:46
OK, first by Sarah, second by Marty. Can I, before we do that? If this is about me, I'd rather do it in the public meeting. 01:11:48
OK, all in favor. 01:11:55
Oh, sorry, Sarah, can we answer that first before we go through Jamie? 01:11:58
We can't talk about what is going on in closed meeting. 01:12:02
We can answer it once we get into a closed session. 01:12:06
OK. Sarah Smith, Yes. 01:12:10
Yes, yes, but. 01:12:15
Yes. 01:12:17
Yes, all right. 01:12:19
That closes our meeting. Thank you. 01:12:21