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April 3rd, 2025. The time is 603. 00:00:00
We're going to start out with an invocation and Pledge of Allegiance and. 00:00:05
Sarah will go ahead and lead us in that. 00:00:09
Our dear Father in heaven, we come before Thee at the beginning of this meeting and ask Thy Spirit to be with us. 00:00:16
That that will help us to. 00:00:22
Make it productive and useful. 00:00:24
That we'll be able to address concerns and. 00:00:27
Relay the facts of. 00:00:31
The things happening in the city and. 00:00:33
We pray that. 00:00:35
We will have. 00:00:36
A heart of. 00:00:38
Seeking understanding and. 00:00:39
Collaboration. 00:00:41
We love the and we're grateful. 00:00:43
For thy spirit and. 00:00:44
Thy guidance and inspiration. And we say these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen. 00:00:46
All the rise. 00:00:54
I pledge allegiance to the flag. 00:00:57
United States of America. 00:01:01
For which it stands. 00:01:04
One nation under God. 00:01:05
With liberty and justice for all. 00:01:09
All right, we'll go ahead and start out with public comments. This is a time for you to address the Council with things that are 00:01:21
not on the agenda that you wanted to bring. 00:01:25
Forward. 00:01:30
If you want to go ahead and speak at the podium, state your name, you'll have two minutes and. 00:01:31
Share your concerns with us. 00:01:36
Kim Cornelius Villas. 00:01:48
Kept kind of a low profile over the last several weeks. 00:01:52
I don't like just. 00:01:57
Talking to hear myself talk. So I've been pretty reserved. 00:01:59
Circumstances are such that. 00:02:03
I wanted to share with you a thought. 00:02:06
That has come after a. 00:02:09
Very touching and heartwarming experience I had yesterday afternoon. 00:02:12
In the home of Don and Corey Overson. 00:02:16
Just to review, Don passed away a couple of weeks ago and I. 00:02:19
Just felt like it was important since we're. 00:02:23
Very close neighbors to. 00:02:25
Go by and Justice visit with Corey and he was probably one of the best 45 minutes I've spent in a long time. 00:02:27
I know a lot of strong women. 00:02:34
But to see what she's. 00:02:36
Doing in the circumstances that she finds herself in. 00:02:38
Is truly remarkable. 00:02:42
In the course of our discussion, she shared with me that the city had reached out to her and offered to. 00:02:44
In dedication to Don put his name on a city water tank. 00:02:51
I didn't know whether to laugh. 00:02:58
Or to just set their stone faced. 00:03:00
But I did share that with some friends and. 00:03:03
One such friend, good friend David Larae, suggested maybe you would reconsider. 00:03:08
Since Don played us such an integral part in his Center St. overpass. 00:03:13
That you name that overpass. 00:03:17
The Don Overson Center St. Overpass. 00:03:20
So I just ask you to consider that he was an integral part of that process, to my understanding. 00:03:23
It came in under budget. 00:03:29
Like million, $9 million in total cost, which is about half of what the deal. 00:03:32
T was going to do it for. 00:03:38
And it was well within the timeframes that they thought that they would be able to finish it. So I just ask for your consideration 00:03:40
with that. 00:03:43
Holloway Rd. 00:03:58
So I'm. 00:04:03
I wanted to ask a couple of questions. They're they're not totally related to the. 00:04:04
The agenda tonight, but they're sort of ancillary to it and I'm. 00:04:09
I wanted to find out. 00:04:12
First of all, if a vote is taken. 00:04:14
On the on the. 00:04:16
The item for the. 00:04:19
You know, for the bonding, the vineyard. 00:04:21
Tonight what there need to be additional vote taken to start that project. 00:04:24
Or would it be would just having that vote taken? 00:04:29
If the. 00:04:32
If our advisors find an appropriate bond that meets all the. 00:04:33
The criteria that we that you agree to. 00:04:37
Within the project just began at that point. 00:04:40
Or we're taking a mystery. We're taking another vote from count, from the entire council. 00:04:43
So that's our first question. 00:04:48
Second question is that. 00:04:49
If it were determined there. 00:04:51
A citizens group wanted to file a referendum. 00:04:54
We know we have a certain number of days to get that paperwork into the. 00:04:56
City clerks or the City Recorder, which just serves as our clerk. 00:05:00
And they're gone this next week. And so we want to know who. 00:05:04
Who would be available to receive that in the? 00:05:07
The appropriate time frame. 00:05:10
So those are two questions. 00:05:12
Thank you. 00:05:14
Wrote I do have a question. 00:05:22
About finances and. 00:05:26
We're talking about. I want to. 00:05:29
Sarah's. 00:05:31
I don't know what it was. 00:05:34
Informational meeting talking about the. 00:05:36
New City Hall. 00:05:41
Possibilities and. 00:05:43
And I learned a lot. 00:05:45
It was exciting to see what was going on and I think. 00:05:48
We all want to have a really viable, wonderful city. 00:05:52
The thing I don't get. 00:05:56
Is how? 00:05:59
It's not going to cost us. 00:06:00
We talk about. 00:06:03
It's coming from the sales tax. Well, then we're robbing the sales tax from something else, so. 00:06:04
It just it just I, it could be my upbringing. 00:06:10
In the 50s and the 60s. 00:06:15
My dad had the same answer every time I ask for something. 00:06:17
Dad, can I go to the movie? 00:06:22
Save your money. 00:06:24
That was it. 00:06:25
And it is a good way to do things. 00:06:26
And. 00:06:30
I think it's harmful to the citizens. 00:06:33
To take away. 00:06:37
The sales tax, if that's what's going on here. 00:06:42
And rob us of things now. 00:06:46
To pay for something. 00:06:49
That really is needed down the road. 00:06:51
Just because it's on sale, Just cause. 00:06:54
You know, it's a good deal. It's really hard for people who have lived our whole lives. 00:06:58
Paying into Social Security pain, You know, we've, we've paid and paid and paid. 00:07:04
And we don't want our. 00:07:10
Taxes to be raised. We don't. 00:07:14
I just would love to hear why this is so important. 00:07:18
Thank you. 00:07:24
Daria Evans, a Villa's resident. I would just like to thank you again for another opportunity to speak with you tonight. 00:07:37
I'd like to express my appreciation to Marty and the mayor. 00:07:44
For their willingness to help me with some sewer questions that I had and Nassim reached out to me and we were able to get that. 00:07:48
Situation explained. 00:07:55
And I am grateful for that. 00:07:57
I would like to refer to some. 00:08:00
Statements made in our March 26 City Council meeting. 00:08:03
Stating about the one power 23 minute. 00:08:07
08 Mark. 00:08:10
Professor Perry was talking about ranked choice voting. 00:08:13
And. 00:08:17
I do not believe that I am being. 00:08:20
Incentivize to vote dishonestly by voting for the candidate I want over another in. 00:08:23
Plurality voting? Excuse me. 00:08:30
And I do not. 00:08:33
Care for the idea of a mathematical algorithm determining? 00:08:34
The outcome of an election. I like one vote. 00:08:38
1 winner. 00:08:43
That's just my opinion. 00:08:44
And also going back to that last meeting. 00:08:46
I also I want to state that I believe that we need to make the lakefront community whole. 00:08:50
By finishing the improvements that the builder left because Vineyard City did not have a written contract. 00:08:56
With the builders to complete that work. 00:09:03
We went through that litigation. 00:09:06
And I think we need to take care of. 00:09:08
What? 00:09:12
Is missing or absent in the lakefront community. We need to make them whole. 00:09:14
And also regarding our sewer system repair. 00:09:20
I know it is being budgeted for. 00:09:24
But when and how substantial will the next? 00:09:26
Repairs B. 00:09:31
How much will it cost? 00:09:33
We need to have plenty of money in. 00:09:35
Don't know what the economy. 00:09:40
Corneliazavella is resident. 00:10:02
I just want to ask all of you up there to do me a favor, and this isn't a hard one. 00:10:04
I'm a geek, so I don't take notes while I'm here at the meeting. I listen to it the next day. 00:10:08
But I can't hear most of you. 00:10:14
No matter what I do with the volume on my computer. 00:10:16
So if you can make certain. 00:10:19
That you speak into your mics so that I can clearly understand. 00:10:21
Because that's when I take my notes. 00:10:25
And then the only thing I want to ask is, is the vote that you will take tonight? 00:10:27
Whichever way it goes. 00:10:32
Is that a legislative vote? 00:10:34
Can you answer that for me tonight? I will. 00:10:41
Answer questions or direct you to the right spot when we're all done with public comment. Thank you. 00:10:44
Yeah. 00:10:51
OK. Are there any other questions or public comment? 00:11:12
All right. I'm going to go ahead and close public comment. 00:11:17
Kim, thanks for the suggestion. 00:11:20
Umm, David, you will want to talk to Pam and Karen. You'll want to talk to Pam at some point in the future. 00:11:24
Maybe Pam you can connect with them. 00:11:32
And then let's see. 00:11:35
We will be discussing Claudia's item on the agenda. 00:11:37
And we will be discussing part of Daria's discussion on the agenda with. 00:11:41
Reserves. 00:11:48
And then let's see, we'll also be discussing part of your item on the agenda with the alternative voting methods. 00:11:50
So with that, we'll go ahead and move right onto the agenda. 00:11:57
Let me. 00:12:01
See what's up first. 00:12:03
All right, that puts us to 3.1, the Municipal Alternative Voting Methods pilot project, and Pam will present and then we'll go 00:12:06
ahead and we'll take a vote. 00:12:10
OK, good. Didn't sound like it was on. 00:12:30
I've never made that mistake before. 00:12:33
So anyway, thank you for for letting me present this tonight. I have a deadline. 00:12:36
That I need to meet and I appreciate this. 00:12:41
You allowing us to do this tonight? I know we talked at length. 00:12:45
There were presentations at length last week about this SO. 00:12:49
I can go into details. I can just let you know that we've done at the last three election cycles. 00:12:52
From the beginning, we we would like to do it one more time, but we understand. 00:12:57
You know, whatever you guys decide, we will, we will run that kind of an election so. 00:13:03
Anyway. 00:13:09
I just wanted to give you another. 00:13:11
Small update, if we did do RCV it would save us about $20,000 if we didn't hold the primary. 00:13:14
So and regardless, we're not going to know if we need a primary and. 00:13:20
If we do a traditional. 00:13:24
Election until. 00:13:27
After the declaration period, so. 00:13:29
Regardless, we won't know if we need that money or not. 00:13:32
And justice to let you know what it would save us if we did it that way. 00:13:36
So and then the other thing is is currently we have. 00:13:41
Almost 68. 00:13:44
100 registered voters were doing a push to try to get more. 00:13:46
And with the apartments coming online? 00:13:50
Later, uh. 00:13:53
This spring, summer, fall, how often are they opening buildings? 00:13:54
Anyway, so the. 00:13:59
If we can do that push, we're hoping to get more registered voters so. 00:14:00
Unless you have any questions for me about last week's discussions or that it. 00:14:04
That you thought of. 00:14:09
In the meantime. 00:14:10
That's all I've got. 00:14:14
OK. Are there any questions? 00:14:15
All right then I just need a motion. 00:14:19
Well, I guess. 00:14:23
I guess Pam you could answer this. 00:14:25
With ranked choice voting, one of my concerns has been I don't want to have like. 00:14:28
The whole conversation of doing a primary versus not doing a primary. 00:14:34
And your current plan with ranked choice voting would be just no primary. Just no primary. Yeah, we've, we've, you know, other 00:14:38
than when we did the. 00:14:42
Vacancy. We've never had enough. 00:14:47
To make. 00:14:50
Ballot really long so. 00:14:52
So yeah, at this point in time. 00:14:54
There'd be no reason to have a primary. 00:14:57
I'm happy to share my thoughts and opinions. 00:15:03
I thoroughly enjoyed our last council meeting. I know it was probably a little bit long. 00:15:07
But the conversation. 00:15:13
A ranked choice voting is something that. 00:15:15
I have been studying for a long time and I find it incredibly fascinating. 00:15:17
Feel like I still learned new things last week even with how much I've been. 00:15:21
Researching things. 00:15:27
I've watched a. 00:15:30
Quite a few videos online. 00:15:31
But umm. 00:15:33
Just like some of my concerns with ranked choice voting. 00:15:35
Are the scenario with specifically that was shared about. 00:15:38
The election in. 00:15:46
Wow, might have been 2019. 00:15:48
Where Christie took first and then she her votes were relegated to. 00:15:51
Everyone and they went into the second. 00:15:58
Ground. 00:16:01
It does. 00:16:03
Concern me that. 00:16:04
Tice's votes basically for everyone that voted for him didn't have a say on a second person. 00:16:07
That's one of my concerns, especially since we're going to have three seats open. 00:16:15
And I personally, if I were to pick. 00:16:21
The person in the third spot and they just kind of held tight the whole way. I would be really frustrated that I didn't get a say 00:16:24
on the 1st 2:00. 00:16:28
I guess I want to make it clear for the public that it's not that I'm against ranked choice voting. 00:16:34
I, I think it's, I think I said last week, I think it's fun to be able to. 00:16:40
I mean, not even fun. I think it's representative to be able to say these are the people I like and this is the order I like them 00:16:45
in. 00:16:48
I really like the ideas of having alternate. 00:16:51
Voting options, but. 00:16:54
I do see some some really concerning flaws with instant runoff counting. 00:16:57
I am interested in the future, I hope that they do that legislation does allow. 00:17:03
Pilot program so that we can learn about different options. Plurality does have its flaws, but as we learned last week, so does it 00:17:09
seem that. 00:17:13
I agree and So what it comes down to just with my perspective. I'm sorry if I'm long winded but. 00:17:19
Vineyard, I think it's pretty great that we. 00:17:28
Been willing to try a different form of voting. 00:17:31
And I think that. 00:17:34
I really appreciate the people that are pushing for different forms of voting. 00:17:38
But I kind of felt like a Guinea pig last week. I felt like. 00:17:41
We've tried it a few times. We've really tried to help in the cause. 00:17:47
And I'm OK. 00:17:51
If the Council decides to end it today and do traditional voting. 00:17:52
And I'm. 00:17:57
But if it doesn't go that direction, I also respect that ranked choice voting or specifically alternate voting. 00:17:58
Is an exciting endeavor. 00:18:05
But it's not necessarily my vote. OK. I just have a question on a comment you meant about. 00:18:07
Christie's votes being redistributed, her first place votes don't count anymore after that. Yeah. So it's the confusion. The 00:18:13
confusion is the counts of rounds. So the way that Wendy explained it. 00:18:20
She was talking about preference. 00:18:27
And the way that Marty just explained is that she thought that you could only vote for one seat, but she it's the multiple rounds 00:18:29
that she doesn't she's not accounting for in this. Yeah, but I aunt, no. 00:18:35
I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'm I'm saying that. 00:18:42
The way that that election turned out is if you voted for Christie first, that obviously helped her, or if you voted for her 00:18:45
second with other candidates, that obviously helped her get her majority. 00:18:51
Or her over 51 or over. 00:18:56
50.1%. 00:18:58
But then if you voted for. 00:18:59
He was never eliminated. 00:19:02
And so only your first vote for Tice counted Anyone else that you listed. If you had Tice as your very first pick anyone else that 00:19:04
you listed. 00:19:09
That vote never went into the statistics of the voting. 00:19:14
Cycle because he was never eliminated. 00:19:17
So in that scenario. 00:19:21
People like. 00:19:24
You know if they voted for Anthony Jenkins or Keith Cooter or take Unmanson. 00:19:25
They actually got multiple votes counted because those people were. 00:19:30
Is it relegated or what's the difference? Because their votes are distributed so, so like that. So we had five people say. 00:19:33
And that fifth one would be eliminated. Those second place votes would be redistributed among the other candidates depending on 00:19:40
who they voted for. Same with the four. 00:19:45
Than people that voted for Tice first because since Tice was never. 00:19:50
Eliminated. Umm. 00:19:55
You only if you had him first. You never had to say on the second candidate. 00:19:56
Like he was the same candidate but he never had to stay on the 1st. Everybody gets the same say on the second candidate. 00:20:01
Yeah, because so, so the way that she explained it last time was a bit confusing and it's two things that are being discussed. 00:20:08
What she was talking about was Wendy, not you. Sorry. 00:20:17
Wendy was expressing that there is a preference. 00:20:22
In the way that your vote is counted. 00:20:26
However. 00:20:29
What wasn't clear, which I think is what Pam is trying to explain, is that. 00:20:31
Your votes did count for the second seat. 00:20:35
It didn't go through the runoff and then Tice was eliminated and that was the end of the vote. It went through round one. 00:20:38
Tice was your first choice. Christie was your second choice, Anthony was your third choice. Round one it went through. Tice was 00:20:46
your first choice, but he got voted in. So that vote, he is now eliminated. Now second round. 00:20:52
It goes and the count starts over. So the the way that the preference is treated is that even though tice is eliminated. 00:20:58
Your actual second choice for second seat. 00:21:06
Is still your first choice. 00:21:09
In preference it's just counted strangely because. 00:21:11
Of how the count happens and one thing is, is that everybody is basically a limited eliminated except for the winter. 00:21:15
In the long run, so everybody's votes do fall off. 00:21:23
And get redistributed. 00:21:27
Until you have that winner. 00:21:28
And then everybody S comes back in, starts again. The 1st place votes for Christie obviously aren't counted, and they go to the 00:21:30
second vote. 00:21:34
And it goes through that same elimination process. I feel like I understand the process, and Mark Roberts confirmed that what I'm 00:21:38
saying is is true. 00:21:43
That what Wendy said is accurate. That if you voted. 00:21:48
This is my thought. Statistically, I really enjoy statistics. 00:21:52
But if? 00:21:55
If you voted for tice. 00:21:56
What if every single person that voted for Tice voted for? 00:21:58
Anthony Jenkins, second like. 00:22:03
We don't know because we never got to really see their votes coming. I see what you're saying. Yeah, Yes. 00:22:05
Could change the determination of the ballot. 00:22:11
If we were voting just in plurality. 00:22:14
Then if I if I voted Tice as my first pick. 00:22:17
Than in Anthony was my second then. 00:22:20
Those votes would have both counted. 00:22:23
But I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. 00:22:26
And I but Mark Roberts actually confirmed the preference, not the rounds of. 00:22:28
County, yeah, which is a little bit different. 00:22:33
Yeah, it doesn't really. And if we have three seats then? 00:22:36
Tyson, 2nd place would have counted for that third seat. Yeah, yeah, you're right. So and that's just depending on how many seats 00:22:39
you have as to whether. 00:22:43
I'm saying for the public and. 00:22:47
Like I said, I'm not anti. 00:22:50
Different forms of voting. I'm open to the ideas. 00:22:53
It's just. 00:22:57
Over and over again, I've seen the flaws with ranked choice voting and it was really wonderful to hear the people that were even 00:22:58
pushing for ranked choice voting to acknowledge. 00:23:02
That there's no perfect system. Oh yeah, I agree, and I do appreciate that ranked choice voting does give a lower cost. 00:23:06
But I looked at Lehigh and I was so grateful for them. 00:23:14
That they had a primary. I don't know how they knew they needed a primary. That's the thing. Because you have to vote way before. 00:23:18
That to do the primary so that changes when your declaration period is and everything. So that was fascinating to me and I asked 00:23:24
she goes. 00:23:28
I don't know. 00:23:32
They didn't. They were saying it was part of their code or something that they have to have. They have to have a primary or 00:23:34
something. Yeah, but then they ended up having. 00:23:37
A lot of people run for council so that was crazy. 00:23:42
So yeah. 00:23:45
But I think 9 candidates for mayor and that. 00:23:46
To me that yeah. 00:23:49
Really hard to sort through all of those candidates and so I really. 00:23:50
Want us to be able to cut? 00:23:54
I hate. 00:23:58
Trim the fat. 00:23:59
And get to the Really. 00:24:01
We can really focus on their platform. 00:24:03
And my only other thing I just want to say. Just my opinion obviously. 00:24:06
Is that? 00:24:10
Running in the plurality. 00:24:12
You can win by 30 something percent. 00:24:14
And so that tells you that 60 something. 00:24:17
Didn't vote for you? 00:24:19
To win, right? And so? 00:24:21
With ranked choice, I know that you at least voted for me at some point in time in your ranking and that that kind of makes me 00:24:24
feel better because that means that. 00:24:28
Yeah, you didn't. 00:24:32
Not vote for me. 00:24:33
Because just like any other election, you don't have to vote for everybody. Just like any other election. 00:24:35
So if you don't want to vote for somebody, don't vote for him. 00:24:40
But so that's just my other thought on that and that's. 00:24:43
I appreciate it and thank you for discussing it. 00:24:47
With me, yeah. Thank you. 00:24:49
That there's different perspectives on this? Yep. 00:24:52
That's great. Thank you. 00:24:54
Any other questions or comments? 00:24:57
By the Council. 00:24:59
I'll just say why I'd be voting against it. 00:25:05
Umm in my experience, the primary is an opportunity to engage citizens very early on in the process and kind of wake up citizens 00:25:09
that are very sleepy. 00:25:14
And. 00:25:20
So I think it's really important to pay the 20 grand or whatever to just say, hey, this is happening. 00:25:22
Because they kind of need a prep and then #2. 00:25:28
Incumbents have a very entrenched advantage with name recognition and everything and the vast majority of challenges. 00:25:33
Challengers are running because they believe in a. 00:25:40
Different, uh. 00:25:44
Direction. 00:25:46
Generally. 00:25:47
And so. 00:25:48
What happens in a primary is it allows challengers to go and put their name out there. 00:25:50
And then after that it gives what, a 90 day period? 00:25:55
For all of those challengers to have time to say. 00:25:59
Do we want to group up together and use forces to? 00:26:03
Unseat the incumbent and that is really important because it helps balance out power. 00:26:07
On the advantage of an incumbency. 00:26:14
And it gives them that 90 day period to organize. Whereas with ranked choice voting, it's like. 00:26:16
It happened. 00:26:22
But it's like it's so quick and that it it's easy for an incumbent to say I'm just gonna not do any debates or anything and just 00:26:23
wait till the end. 00:26:27
And so and also, I just think. 00:26:31
It's just as a referee, you're changing the scoring of the game, whether it be statistically better or not. It's just like. 00:26:35
This is the game, whether it be good or bad. 00:26:41
That's the way it's played and so that's why it's. 00:26:43
I why I would vote that way. I just, I just have a comment and mostly to go out to the public and to anybody that chooses to run 00:26:47
regardless of what kind of an election we run. 00:26:52
That primaries get the least amount of voters. Everybody wants to wait and vote in the general election. The problem with not 00:26:56
voting in a primary. 00:27:01
Is that then the person you really want to get in might not get in because you chose not to vote? If you don't think one vote 00:27:06
matters, look at our 2015 election where we had. 00:27:12
A It was a close enough vote that we had to do a recount. 00:27:18
Everybody gained. 00:27:24
Votes, so you can't tell me that. 00:27:26
The counting systems are perfect either. 00:27:28
But everybody gained gained votes when we ended up in a tie and we had to roll the dice. 00:27:31
To determine. 00:27:36
Who took the seat? 00:27:37
That I just want that out there to the public. Please vote in the primary if we have one. 00:27:40
It sounds like. 00:27:46
We might be leaning that way. I will see this. 00:27:47
I was really grateful as well for the people that came. I found it interesting that in multiple surveys, the people of Vineyard 00:27:50
wanted rank choice voting. 00:27:54
I liked that the state law changed allowed you to make a primary. 00:27:59
It allows for you to still have a primary, well, still keeping your options open. I think it's interesting when we're talking 00:28:03
about incumbents and challengers because ranked choice voting. 00:28:08
Is an opportunity for those people to have. 00:28:14
To kind of move outside of the name recognition because you get to. 00:28:19
Rank your people instead of just voting for. 00:28:22
One person or two people? 00:28:26
Whatever the seats are that are open. 00:28:28
And I thought it was interesting too, that. 00:28:30
On every mark that they spoke against ranked choice voting. 00:28:33
They found the same types of errors in plurality. 00:28:38
Only there was an advantage of less errors in rank choice voting. 00:28:42
Now the pilots ending this year. 00:28:47
We also heard another method that might come out and I don't know if. 00:28:49
Leaving it means that. 00:28:53
The state's going to look at it and say, well, why didn't you continue on with it? But if the reason is that we're just kind of 00:28:55
moving outside of it and saying the state's closing down on it so we can move outside of it, I'm happy to support. 00:29:01
The Council in the direction that you've. 00:29:07
That you want to go, but if it's for the people. 00:29:09
Who want their voices to be heard the most? 00:29:12
And to offer opportunities for. 00:29:15
Primaries and challengers. 00:29:20
Fair scoring, It seems like everything that we were taught last week speaks to the opposite side of that. Yeah. And oh, sorry, one 00:29:23
other thing, just real quick on the comment that you made is that. 00:29:28
For something that you also said, Jake, is that when you're going out and you're canvassing in a. 00:29:35
And a regular one. You don't want anybody to vote for anybody else unless you have joined with somebody. 00:29:41
Which we know you guys did that last for the last election cycle. 00:29:47
But the idea of ranked choice voting is is you go out and you push your name, you push your platform, you do all that and say hey, 00:29:51
if I'm not your first choice, please at least make me. Your second or third choice for this year would be 3 choices so. 00:29:57
That's just something I want to throw out there too for. 00:30:04
For canvassing. 00:30:07
I mean, not. Yeah, I agree. I think it does, Foster. 00:30:10
A better. 00:30:15
Better rhetoric like. 00:30:16
Yeah, umm. 00:30:18
Better, umm. 00:30:19
Just kinder elections. 00:30:20
Mayor I I appreciate your perspective, but I really. 00:30:23
I from my experience. 00:30:27
I really believe that. 00:30:30
Our community is divided on this pretty like, I feel like there are a lot of people that love it, a lot of people that don't. 00:30:32
And a lot of people that. 00:30:40
May or may not careless. 00:30:42
I, I really just wanted to say that I don't know if I well and I like it. I, I was just stating what we saw in the surveys with 00:30:47
the data that came to us. 00:30:50
I just found it interesting that those were the results from the surveys that came in. But like I said, I'm I'm totally willing to 00:30:54
support you guys if what you're feeling out there is that. 00:30:59
The data that's coming back is not representative of the people. 00:31:04
I understand that. 00:31:08
Depending on which survey we're talking about, right, because one of the surveys that was shared. 00:31:11
Was very limited. We had maybe like 20 people we were counting and so that wasn't a good Yeah, that was not and that was the 00:31:16
statewide weighted survey that had a few. And it's probably the same thing that when we were doing all of our training and 00:31:21
everything. 00:31:26
We held it at the Vineyard Days and we held it here and. 00:31:31
And people were going, well, we know how to do this. 00:31:34
We get it. So then we did an exit poll for people when we had a vote center here. 00:31:37
Everybody that came out from that said, Oh yeah, it was easy when we understand it. 00:31:42
So, umm. 00:31:47
So Trent, you know, so that kind of stuff for for that course that was in 2019 and that's an additional survey. That's an 00:31:48
additional thing that we did just to see. 00:31:53
That's part of my issue though. Ranked choice voting is great. 00:32:00
Instant Runoff counting has its flaws, is how I see it. 00:32:03
I think I think everything has. 00:32:06
Laws and counting so. 00:32:08
Or in your outcome. 00:32:10
On things, but like I said, how? Whatever you guys decide. 00:32:11
We will run that election. 00:32:15
Best of our abilities. 00:32:17
Yeah, I have. 00:32:20
A comment I'd like to make for my part. 00:32:21
Vote against it as well. 00:32:25
But it's not because I think ranked choice voting is bad. I actually prefer it. 00:32:26
But I do think that the community is very divided on it. 00:32:32
And I also see the state having acted. 00:32:35
And I also see as it was a pilot to begin with, which to me implies experiment. 00:32:39
And the point of an experiment is to gather data and learn. 00:32:46
And I wonder. 00:32:49
What is the value of 1? 00:32:51
More run at it before the experiment ends. 00:32:54
Just close it out. Years of data. 00:32:56
To learn from. 00:32:59
In what I heard tonight is. 00:33:02
The value would be $20,000. 00:33:03
That's what I heard. 00:33:05
Yeah, just to close it out. 00:33:06
So we ran it off the whole time but. 00:33:08
You know what? Like I said. 00:33:10
It's up to you guys. 00:33:12
All right. I feel like we have a motion. 00:33:14
Feel like we have a group? 00:33:17
You all, you all covered it Well, I actually, yeah. 00:33:22
I really appreciate that we delayed putting it on the agenda so we could have. 00:33:25
That work session, it was really valuable. 00:33:30
And when they talked about plurality? 00:33:32
Umm, I remember, I remember growing up and having spoiler votes for the presidency. I. 00:33:36
You know, I remember that. 00:33:40
And so I hadn't really considered it before. 00:33:42
And so to have the pros and cons of all of the different. 00:33:46
Voting systems for me was really valuable. 00:33:49
And I liked the idea of this spreadsheet where they brought in the. 00:33:53
The what was it? Ranked pairs? 00:33:57
Seem to have less. 00:34:00
Of a downside, you know. 00:34:02
So I'm not opposed to. 00:34:03
To looking at other forms in the future, but again, our community is small. 00:34:05
And there's a lot of voices that want it to be done and so. 00:34:10
And I appreciate you letting me wait because I wanted to see what the Legislature was going to do, because I'd heard rumblings 00:34:14
that they were. 00:34:17
That somebody was going to submit a bill to just end it now. 00:34:20
And so. 00:34:24
There was no reason. There would have been no reason to even. 00:34:25
Discuss it. 00:34:28
So thank you for allowing me to wait. 00:34:29
On that. 00:34:31
Awesome. All right. I just need a motion. 00:34:34
You don't need. 00:34:42
Quote the resolution number if you're going to deny it. 00:34:43
Do the motion to deny. 00:34:46
You just move to deny. 00:34:48
The request. 00:34:50
I'd move to deny that request. 00:34:52
All right. We have a first by Brett. Can I get a second? 00:34:54
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 00:34:58
All right, all in favor, we do a roll call. Just Oh yeah, roll call. 00:35:02
Jake. 00:35:05
Hi, Marty. Hi, Sarah. Hi. All right, Thank you, guys. We'll get going. 00:35:07
All right, we will move on to our next agenda item that is the bond parameter bond parameters resolution. 00:35:13
2025-15 and David Robertson. 00:35:22
With Lewis, Robertson and Birmingham will present. 00:35:25
Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. 00:35:33
I think, Eric, did we get that presentation? 00:35:37
Hold up by chance? 00:35:39
OK, as he's pulling that up. 00:35:42
First of all, I just wanted to introduce ourselves. We are LRB public finance advisors. 00:35:44
I work with Laura Lewis and as the financial advisors to the city. 00:35:49
And fiduciaries were just wanted to be clear, we're not here driving the bus. We're here to advise the city and to give you 00:35:53
independent advice along the way. So. 00:35:58
The other thing we wanted to mention is. 00:36:03
In working with the staff and others, we've received some information along the way. 00:36:06
And it's been very helpful. We love. 00:36:11
Receiving information from the public, from the, from the governing body and from staff to make sure on whatever endeavor we're 00:36:13
moving forward that we're meeting the needs of the city and the residents. So we really do honestly welcome the feedback, we 00:36:19
welcome the input and really want to integrate that all into this whole process. So. 00:36:24
I think Eric's pulling that up. I can speak from it my laptop as well. 00:36:31
Can I share my screen? I can do it from here. 00:36:48
OK, should we count 1? 00:36:52
2/3. 00:36:56
Perfect. Thank you. 00:37:00
OK, uh. 00:37:01
Next slide, please. 00:37:02
OK, so today we've gathered a lot of thoughts and I've heard various comments. And so we wanted to kind of just get out of the 00:37:06
gates and just make sure. 00:37:10
We had all the information in front of us, so I'm going to try and hit on all of these points. 00:37:14
And then incorporating the comments I heard from the. 00:37:19
From the public today and see if I can't hit on all of these points. So we'll talk about introductions, the goals, water, sales, 00:37:23
tax revenue, bonds. 00:37:27
Other tenants, other partners. 00:37:31
Potential financing structure, the next steps, the primary resolution and then the next steps after this. So next step please. 00:37:34
OK, As we get into this, some of the major participants that we'll be engaging with is the City Council, city staff. Meg is one of 00:37:40
the potential partners with the city on helping fund this project. 00:37:46
And then also as we understand that this project is going to have various components. 00:37:53
There could be input from. 00:37:57
Additional tenets how that could incorporate into this project. 00:38:00
Also, there's potential ways of renting or leasing the potential parts of this. 00:38:04
New facilities out and so there's ways of kind of incorporating all those items. 00:38:09
Some of the major professionals that we were working with. 00:38:13
I failed to list Jamie here as the city's attorney, but obviously he'll be a big portion of this. 00:38:16
But Laura and I'll be working as the financial advisor fiduciary. 00:38:22
To the city. 00:38:26
Randy Larson and Brad Patterson, and I'm grateful for Brad being here as well. They're acting as bond and disclosure council to 00:38:30
make sure that the bonds qualify. 00:38:34
For tax exempt bonds, which is the lowest cost of borrowing, but also making sure that the bonds are issued just with within the 00:38:40
realms of all the legal requirements. 00:38:44
And there's the Bond underwriter. 00:38:50
The SO LRB, we are the financial advisor to this city. 00:38:52
But then John Crandall and Matt Dugdale from Stifel, they actually interact with the investors and they actually sell the bonds. 00:38:58
So there's various. 00:39:01
Kind of roles here and even though like Stifel they represent. 00:39:06
They represent both the city on selling the bonds where you want to have the lowest interest rates. 00:39:10
And looser covenants. Investors want high interest rates and strict covenants. They kind of straddle that and talk about in both 00:39:15
of those worlds. So they have a natural inherent conflict of interest. That's not a bad thing. It's just simply the way the market 00:39:20
is. 00:39:24
And so we, as your fiduciaries, we help represent you on that side. 00:39:29
Next slide, please. 00:39:32
OK, I know there's various goals and there's goals. We welcome any feedback to make sure that these goals are at. 00:39:34
Are obtained and set properly. 00:39:41
Just one of the comments was from the. 00:39:44
From this Madam about. 00:39:48
The needs of the city, right? Because you have the needs of the city today, we also have the needs of the city in the future. And 00:39:51
how do you pay for that? 00:39:54
We understand. 00:39:57
I'm not down grading anyone's comments. It's interesting because you have the tug and pull. Because the cheapest way for paying 00:39:59
for any project is to pay cash for that. 00:40:03
Well, to save up enough time to actually pay for something, you could wait a long time. So you think of your house, right? You 00:40:07
need a house. You want the lowest cost. 00:40:10
There's no feasible way of paying cash for that project, so the other way is incurring debt. 00:40:14
Sometimes debt can be a good thing as you really on your personal finances. 00:40:19
You don't want any debt because you're only one paying for that, right? 00:40:23
Well, on. 00:40:25
On publicly owned assets. 00:40:27
Well, the person who is paying for it today, someone who's using it 10 years from now, 20 years from now, what's the equitable way 00:40:30
of having everyone pay for that? So we just want to. So debt can be or bonds can be a good, good term. So is that something that 00:40:34
the city wants to do? 00:40:39
If we go down that route. 00:40:44
Issuing bonds or incurring debt. 00:40:46
We want to make sure there's there's different components. Not only do you want the lowest interest cost. 00:40:49
But you want flexible terms. You want to have. 00:40:53
What's good for the city on their cash flow? What's the right of securing that debt, unlike your personal finances where you are 00:40:56
the one securing it? 00:41:01
There's different ways of securing bonds, so we'll pay attention to that. 00:41:05
We do want to pay attention to and just be clear, these bonds, how they're sold, they will be fixed rate bonds. There's not going 00:41:09
to be any variable rate. There's not going to be any reset. They'll be fixed for the life of their bonds. 00:41:14
There may be a period of time that we ramp up the debt service or bonds, how they're sold. They do have various interest rates 00:41:20
because different people buy different bonds along the way. 00:41:25
But the interest rate will be fixed at closing. They will not adjust. They will not change. 00:41:29
If the city wants to refinance their bonds. 00:41:34
Great, but at closing they will be fixed for the life of the bonds. 00:41:36
So I want to understand that correctly. Sure. 00:41:40
I think. 00:41:43
Each year the. 00:41:44
It will be a fixed rate correct when you close. 00:41:46
However, when you go to the market. 00:41:49
One year might be. 00:41:51
4.7. 00:41:53
Year 3 and 4 might be 4.8. 00:41:54
Where this could be 5 point whatever and that's usually the market is based off of. 00:41:57
The lower payment that they're holding right like. 00:42:04
Is it so like we're wanting a smaller payment? 00:42:07
Up front. 00:42:11
Don't have a lot of cash. 00:42:12
Can I reset it a differently maybe? 00:42:14
So when you sell, when you go like on your home mortgage, assuming everyone's had a mortgage in their life, right, you go to the 00:42:17
bank and saying, hey, I'm getting a 30 year mortgage. Well, the average life of that mortgage is going to be like 22 or 23 years 00:42:22
on average. So then the banks going to say, okay, they're going to peg that to whatever index they say and your average interest 00:42:27
rate for your life of your mortgage. 00:42:32
In today's market is what 6 1/4 so. 00:42:38
Every principal payment that you have is targeted at six and a quarter paid. 00:42:40
That makes sense, right? When you sell bonds each year, you're going to have principal that's going to amortize. So there's going 00:42:45
to be a set payment that every year is going to be amortized. 00:42:49
Depending on what kind of investor you are. Like if you're a bank, if you're a, trust, if you're a. 00:42:54
Money management. If you're an insurance, you buy bonds at different parts of that amortization schedule. 00:42:59
So yes, each principal payment will be assigned a coupon and a yield. 00:43:05
That is fixed at closing and it's locked in. 00:43:10
And then what you do is you have all of those payments, like you said, the earlier ones have a lower interest rate, the later ones 00:43:13
have a higher interest rate. You average that all together to get what's called your tick or your true interest costs and that's 00:43:18
kind of what we refer to as your overall interest rate. 00:43:22
So you don't use the word variable, you just say a different rate for every year. 00:43:28
I guess I don't know. 00:43:32
It's not. But the same fixed rate, Yeah, sure. 00:43:34
It's I have in. 00:43:40
Interrupt me if I'm getting this wrong because I'm not an expert here. 00:43:43
I have some number of. 00:43:47
Shares in this bond. 00:43:50
Get bought and sold. 00:43:52
Mm-hmm. If 100% of them bought get bought on day one and they hold them for until maturity. 00:43:53
The rate never changes. 00:43:59
Is that true? 00:44:00
Yeah, OK. Yeah. So you see where I'm trying to get. 00:44:03
And they will have an interest rate assigned to them. 00:44:10
So to Mr. Holdaway's comment. 00:44:13
Yes, each bondholder may have a different interest rate. 00:44:16
But we know that, but they're fixed at closing. You will know what it is and they're locked and then they cannot be changed, 00:44:19
right? 00:44:23
Yeah. They're a maximum interest rate that it could go to like. 00:44:27
It wouldn't go any lower than 3%. It wouldn't go any higher than 6%. It's kind of something I've heard. 00:44:32
So yes, in the parameters resolution. 00:44:37
We'll and we'll get to that. We're going to set certain parameters. 00:44:40
Because of the timing of how kind of the bond sales work. 00:44:44
That we will delegate the. 00:44:47
The authority to a couple of people and they'll say OK, as long as we can price bonds within this within. 00:44:50
At the maximum interest rate, as long as you can price the bonds lower than that. 00:44:55
Then we can go ahead with the transaction. 00:44:59
If those interest rates exceed that amount, then we would not proceed with the transaction and come back to the council saying 00:45:01
hey. 00:45:04
The market skewompus or whatever reason we need to readdress that maximum interest rate. 00:45:07
And I think in the documents it's 6%, right? Correct. 00:45:12
Today, in today's market, we estimate that the current. 00:45:16
And we'll get into what will influence this, but in the mid 4% range and you say, well, why do we set a higher interest rate? 00:45:20
Part of it is there's. 00:45:28
Going back to the pricing, there's couponing and there's different. 00:45:30
Places in the market. 00:45:33
If we get into this process. 00:45:35
And all of the things in the market, kind of the market, the rates go up instead of having to come back and get the approval. 00:45:36
We just set that maximum interest rate. 00:45:44
There's. 00:45:46
There's purposes for doing that. 00:45:48
OK. 00:45:52
When we're going through the financing and doing the structuring and all of that, we seek to have flexibility around the 00:45:55
partnering because the city could be partnering with Meg, leasing other property, renting their property. I'll be working with 00:46:01
Brad and his partner Randy to make sure that we comply with all the the. 00:46:06
Requisite tax requirements. 00:46:12
And just making sure we have the flexibility on how the property can be used not only today but going into the future. 00:46:17
Next slide, please. 00:46:22
One of the questions was saying well. 00:46:24
Vineyards the only one that has used sales tax to finance their projects. I just wanted to put this to bed. 00:46:26
You're not the only one. This is a very active, very common use of projects to finance projects. 00:46:32
Like Mill Creek, they just use sales tax revenue bonds to finance. A very similar project for Mill Creek is just, you know, it's 00:46:40
in Salt Lake County. 00:46:45
Very similar type of project, kind of city center. 00:46:50
Let's use dynamic ways of using these properties, but this is just a list of a handful of projects going back to October 2020. 00:46:53
So just we wanted to let you know that lots of people, lots of communities use sales tax revenue bonds to finance their projects. 00:47:02
And there's a variety of projects, but a multiple. 00:47:10
I'm blanking right now. I don't know if Brad knows offhand, but there's I know Mill Creek used sales tax revenue bonds to finance 00:47:12
their city center. 00:47:16
City in Utah County because I couldn't find one in Utah County. 00:47:20
Orem comes to oh sorry, is that if you sales tax or for the city center. 00:47:25
Further City Hall. 00:47:29
Right, but that's not for their city center. 00:47:32
I can't remember in Utah County. 00:47:35
Do you remember Brad offhand? 00:47:38
Another borough to use those for purposes of their library and their you might need to come to Oh sorry, he's yeah. 00:47:40
Yeah, five years ago they did fill their library. I think Spanish Fork might have as well. 00:47:48
Yeah, I see a Spanish work, one for 58,000 or 58 million. 00:47:53
Keep going thus, please. Yeah. 00:47:58
Madam Mayor. 00:48:00
Members of Council, Brad Patterson. I'm with Gilmore, Bill. 00:48:01
We were bonded disclosure council to the city. 00:48:04
In terms of the types of principal projects that have been financed, the the sales tax revenues are used for a variety of 00:48:07
different types of projects. 00:48:10
It's not uncommon to see a City Hall financed this way, city offices to be financed this way. 00:48:15
And so. 00:48:21
We see them used for a variety of different purposes and I think that the Orem financing, we did that for purposes of the 00:48:23
expansion kind of the renovation of their City Hall and their library, their whole city kind of. 00:48:28
Complex over there. 00:48:34
My memory serves me right. 00:48:35
Sure. 00:48:37
Good. I apologize, I'm a soft talker. 00:48:40
And my wife tells me that all the time, and I just use it for yeah. 00:48:43
She always is. 00:48:48
So. 00:48:50
OK. Next slide please. OK. Sales tax revenue, bonds when we I've hit on a couple of these points. 00:48:53
But yeah, like I said that. 00:49:00
The rates will be fixed for the life of the bonds. 00:49:01
When we look at the amortization. 00:49:03
A couple different points. We look at the useful life of the facilities because we don't want to finance and have bond payments 00:49:06
passed. 00:49:09
When you're having to replace the facilities, the. 00:49:13
We look at the cash flow from the city to say hey. 00:49:15
What period of time do you want to repay these bonds? 00:49:17
Right now we've been targeting kind of that 25 to 30 year period. We've seen it as short as 20 years and as long as 35 years, but 00:49:20
kind of that 25 to 30 seems to be. 00:49:24
Kind of that sweet spot. 00:49:29
The reason? 00:49:31
We have the project amount. 00:49:32
Think that there's some of the initial budgets. 00:49:34
For the city have come in closer to 30. 00:49:37
The reason we have 35 million in there is before a couple of reasons. 00:49:40
The city has some equity or some funds that they could apply towards this project for not only the city but also the RDA to go 00:49:46
towards some of the architectural and some of those. 00:49:50
We're working with Meg on figuring out what their budget is. They've given us a range of how much money or how much equity they 00:49:55
could contribute to this project at closing. So we're still working through all of that and we're still working through this kind 00:50:00
of what the uses of the property could be. 00:50:05
You ask why did we put $35 million in the in the project? 00:50:10
While we fully estimate that the actual bonds will be kind of in the 20. 00:50:15
$25 million range until we hear back from MAG on what their level of participation is. 00:50:19
And working with the city on how much the city wants to contribute. 00:50:25
We did 35 because we anticipate that the project is going to be in that 30 to 32 range kind of in there. 00:50:28
But then the city has to fund the debt service reserve fund. 00:50:36
Any kind of capitalized interest, the transactional cost, we estimated that could be a little bit larger. So that's why we given 00:50:39
some flexibility on that front. 00:50:44
So any kind of equity that come in from MAG? 00:50:48
Or from the city would be would be applied immediately to reduce the amount of bonds that we have to issue. 00:50:51
One of the questions was saying, well, when can we refinance or refund these bonds? 00:50:57
Unlike your your mortgage when you can kind of repay or just refinance your mortgage whenever you want. 00:51:02
Bonds have what is called call protection, meaning the investors want to know that for a period of time that they're going to 00:51:07
return, have a return on their investment. We've seen that as short as one or two years for specialty type of financing. 00:51:14
For a public offering, that's typically somewhere between 7 and 10 years. 00:51:20
And what that means is, is the city could refinance those bonds ahead of that period of time. We're going to have to make those 00:51:24
investors whole through that call period. So you typically you don't. 00:51:29
And if you refund the bonds before the call date, it's on a taxable basis. 00:51:34
And reason I stay taxable or tax exempt? 00:51:39
Taxable refers to the interest rate if the investor has to pay income tax on the interest earnings they come in. 00:51:42
They charge a higher interest rate because they. 00:51:49
It costs them more because they're paying. 00:51:52
Income tax. 00:51:54
Well, for investors that don't pay income tax. 00:51:55
On those bonds, because those bonds qualify for tax exempt purposes, they can offer to buy those bonds at a lower interest rate. 00:51:58
So that's why we like to sell bonds for tax exempt purposes. 00:52:03
And that's usually for anything that's for a public good. 00:52:08
And so the bonds can be refunded at that call date on a tax exempt basis, usually starting in somewhere between year 7:00 and 00:52:11
10:00. And we'll determine that once we price the bonds. 00:52:16
The when we go to structure the bonds. 00:52:21
For the first year or two, depending on the construction period, we're going to do what's called capitalized interest, meaning 00:52:25
you're going to borrow in the bonds, you're going to borrow enough money to make the interest earnings, sorry, to make the 00:52:30
interest payment. 00:52:35
For that construction period. 00:52:40
And so it's kind of so that way the city, while it doesn't have use of the facilities, they're not paying on that debt. And so 00:52:42
while interest will begin to accrue as soon as you close on the bonds. 00:52:47
The city will not make payments through that capitalized interest period. So that's usually. 00:52:54
Somewhere between one and two years. And so we'll kind of work through that. 00:53:00
Usually then the year after that capitalized interest you have an interest only period. 00:53:03
And so you'll pay interest and then starting in the second year after that then when you start to amortize your principal. 00:53:09
We haven't determined what that would look like yet for a couple of reasons. A we're still working through. We're in the early 00:53:16
stages of this process. 00:53:19
Again, we're working with MAG to figure out their level of participation and so we'll need to figure out. Then there's the third 00:53:24
component is. 00:53:27
If there is some private use of these facilities, there may be some bonds are issued on a taxable basis. We'll need to kind of 00:53:31
factor that all in. 00:53:35
Early estimates based upon some of the early numbers is the interest only component could be 900,000. 00:53:40
The full payment, what we'd like to do is then what most likely is ramp up the debt service. So you'll start off 900,000. 00:53:47
And then as the use of facilities and different in uh. 00:53:53
Factors influence, we kind of ramped that debt service up until the full debt service payment would be about 2 million. 00:53:59
Again, some of that would be would be split between the city and Mag on a roughly 2 thirds 1/3 basis. 00:54:06
And we'll just work through all of those kind of cash flow needs that will also be influenced by the the city's ability to to be 00:54:13
to repay this debt. 00:54:16
We've had some preliminary discussions with the city on what their debt capacity is. 00:54:21
I just want to have all of those components as we structure the debt, but that has not been determined, that has not been 00:54:24
finalized that we will do that here in the months to come. 00:54:29
Next slide, please. 00:54:33
I just wanted to add context because we said something a little bit incorrect. 00:54:34
On the Orem one and to give context. 00:54:39
Orem's total budget. 00:54:42
Is 152,000,000 ours is 12 just a? 00:54:45
To make sure we're building the same $30 million building. 00:54:48
We're 12 million there, 152. 00:54:52
Also on their sales tax bond that was voted on in 2018 by voters, it wasn't. 00:54:54
Done by the Council like this. 00:55:00
Where we would be approving it. 00:55:03
It was in conjunction with their. 00:55:05
Rec Center and their theater that was connected to the library, not their City Hall, but. 00:55:08
I get what you're saying is. 00:55:13
People have built structures, but I think it's unique that. 00:55:15
The citizens wouldn't be voting on it. 00:55:19
So the citizens on in our world, umm. 00:55:23
The only bonds that need a citizen voter for general obligation bonds. So general obligation bonds pledge the full faith and 00:55:27
credit of the entity, which are repaid from property taxes. All revenue bonds in Utah do not need. Well I know they don't need, 00:55:32
but I'm just saying in Orem they did. 00:55:37
They did go out to vote and they they wanted to ask voters. 00:55:42
Yeah, just like we could, we could say, hey, let's go out and vote, they said. 00:55:45
But they did use sales tax. I got that. 00:55:49
But they were, they were building a huge new rec center that was a massive expense that was going to add. 00:55:51
They were going to have to pay for that. 00:55:56
That wasn't just a sales tax bond. 00:55:58
I don't think that was just a sales tax. Pawn the rec center. 00:56:00
I think that was a general obligation bond, so we need to look into that. 00:56:03
Yeah, I've I've got the records. 00:56:07
Yeah, umm. 00:56:10
I apologize. I have the record right here because we worked on that particular. 00:56:11
Transaction and the 2019 deal was a general obligation bond. 00:56:14
So that's why I didn't think it was a sales taxes. 00:56:18
They just messaged me and said. 00:56:21
That it was voted on by the public, so I was like, OK. 00:56:23
Yeah, you'll have to excuse me. I've gone through some deal melt here in the last couple years. So I wanted to correct it because 00:56:26
I was like. 00:56:28
Yeah. 00:56:31
But I think it is important to see the comparison in. 00:56:34
A $30 million building by 1 entity and a $30 million.32. 00:56:37
And there's a. 00:56:42
Their entire budget is 152 million. 00:56:43
Versus our 12 million? 00:56:46
And I. 00:56:49
I'm not familiar with. 00:56:51
That, yeah. Is that comparing? 00:56:52
The total budget is that comparing just sales tax. You want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples and all of that total 00:56:55
ORAM budget. 00:56:58
2425 is 152 million. 00:57:03
I don't know if it's sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. 00:57:06
I think that we often forget too, that Orem did build a City Hall and library like in the 70s. 00:57:11
That also costs them a lot of money for the time. 00:57:18
So I don't think it's unusual for a city. 00:57:21
Growing to build. 00:57:24
A City Hall, be it whatever price it is. 00:57:26
And the fact that we're partnering, I think we need to keep in mind. 00:57:29
That our number is closer to the low to mid 20s. 00:57:32
Just for clarification's sake. 00:57:35
Just so that we're. 00:57:37
My goal is that we're all talking about the same thing. I want us all understanding the numbers, whether or not we agree on it. 00:57:39
What the agree on the idea? 00:57:45
Let's make sure we're all saying the same numbers. 00:57:47
And that's a very, I think if we could all build under 2018 numbers, we'd all like to have those construction numbers back again, 00:57:50
right? 00:57:53
And I think the hard thing that you mentioned, I like what you how you phrased that is. 00:57:56
You have to look at it like we're using it today, tomorrow. 00:58:02
We could wait for 20 years to build to save up enough money to pay for this in cash. 00:58:06
But who knows what the cost is going to be in the future? So those are very good observations. 00:58:11
OK. When we go into bonds. 00:58:15
The unique things about cities. 00:58:17
You have a variety of different funding sources you have. 00:58:20
I'm not gonna list them all, but the ones that we're going to focus on, you mentioned property tax. 00:58:23
That goes in general fund, sales tax, general fund, franchise tax, general fund amongst everything else. 00:58:27
When we go through the bond analysis. 00:58:33
On sales tax revenue bonds. 00:58:37
And the thought process here that's been? 00:58:39
That she'd been used. 00:58:42
You actually can can combine your sales tax revenues and your franchise fee revenues and use those as collateral for your bonds. 00:58:43
You said, well, why would you do that? 00:58:47
The bondholders do not have the right to come and just. 00:58:52
Say hey, Citi. 00:58:56
You need to use your general your general fund to repay me. 00:58:58
On these bonds. 00:59:01
They can only tap those sales tax and franchise franchise fee revenues for that repayment of those bonds. 00:59:02
So you can see here between those two different sources. 00:59:08
The total revenues and fiscal year 2024 was little over $4 million. 00:59:11
The reason that's relevant is when you go and do your comparison of what your debt service payment is. 00:59:17
Bondholders want to see what's called debt service coverage, meaning for every dollar of debt that you have, what are your net 00:59:23
revenues available to make that debt service payment? 00:59:27
And for sales tax and these types of? 00:59:31
Revenues because they are fluid. 00:59:33
And the city cannot directly control them. As we all know, the cities the see the sales tax the city receives. That rate is pretty 00:59:36
much set the the the major influencers of those are. 00:59:41
Continued development or kind of point of contact in the city or who's buying goods within the city and the population, those are 00:59:47
the two major factors. So as the city continues to grow and develop, you're going to that would influence for the sales tax 00:59:52
revenues to go up. 00:59:57
So as we structure this. 01:00:02
LRB did a very just preliminary look. 01:00:04
We looked at saying, OK, what is your current sales track revenues today franchise? 01:00:07
Let's do some very basic assumptions saying hey. 01:00:12
Historically, you've seen. 01:00:15
So a percentage increase, let's be conservative there for the next couple of years and then be Uber conservative in the future 01:00:17
saying that's 4% for a handful of years, 1% handful of years. How's that going to look to an investor? So that's why we started 01:00:22
off on that side as being conservative. We did not do. 01:00:28
Market study of saying what businesses are coming in trying to predict. 01:00:35
What businesses are coming in? We did not make any assumptions of saying this, that or the other. We simply looked at. 01:00:39
Baseline 2024, we increased this at 4 and 1% or whatever those numbers were. Does that show well for the investor? So we did not 01:00:45
do a thorough market study, just don't want, don't want that. To be clear, we're assuming what grocery store or what businesses 01:00:50
were coming in. 01:00:55
Or predicting. 01:01:00
Population growth is simply based off of that baseline of 2024 to say hey. 01:01:03
Can the city do this? 01:01:07
We still reserve the right, we are still working closely with staff to understand. 01:01:09
OK, in your 2024 audit, you had a large transfer out of your general fund into your. 01:01:13
Capital projects fund. 01:01:19
That potentially could help make these payments. I'm not saying the city has all that money. We understand you have capital needs 01:01:20
and there's going to be future capital needs and growth of the city. 01:01:25
All we're all we're doing is a preliminary analysis out of the gates. 01:01:30
Is it plausible that the city could afford this? And the preliminary analysis is yes. 01:01:33
We could do that. We still reserve their work, right? To work with this staff and receive your feedback to say, hey, what's going 01:01:38
to influence that number? Can the city really afford this? 01:01:42
We're still early in that process, but want you to know we're aware of it. There's going to be influencing factors and we'll pay 01:01:47
attention to all of that. 01:01:50
Like I said, I don't want to rehash it but like. 01:01:53
Mag whatever they say that's going to influence this whole discussion because they thought. 01:01:55
Very beginning where we may want to prepay or. 01:01:59
Pay our debt off earlier, well we know maybe want to do a 20 year, there's going to be all of those items in there so. 01:02:02
Ought to be said. 01:02:08
Sales tax is a nice fluid number. We can use that and there's a variety of factors that's going to influence that number over the 01:02:10
years would. 01:02:14
Would a market analysis be part of the? 01:02:19
The more detailed. 01:02:22
Analysis. When we go through this, you don't have to do 1. 01:02:23
Because you do have so much coverage right now. 01:02:27
And there's, I can't quote all the projects right now, but I know there's a lot of projects on the docket right now, I think. 01:02:29
I'm going to butcher names, but I know there's a lot of projects coming in, so I don't think we have to do that because investors 01:02:36
are very comfortable with that. If you wanted to do that one just for your own sake and letting your citizens know that was good, 01:02:40
that would be fine. 01:02:45
That will take a handful of months to get that completed, but we can do whatever you need. 01:02:50
Can you back up in the slide? 01:02:56
So when meeting with Laura that 3.2 we already spend in 2024 and same with the 8:35 we already spent. 01:02:57
So to say you already spent it. 01:03:07
What do you mean mean it was spent on? 01:03:10
City services and stuff for last year, right? 01:03:13
Like for other, well, things. 01:03:16
If you look at the audit, you also transferred 2.7 million of the general fund for other capital projects and stuff, right? But we 01:03:19
spent, yeah, we spent it on things, right? 01:03:23
You didn't spend every dime of that, no. 01:03:29
The vast well capital projects. 01:03:31
Umm, not every time. I, I, we've got two months left of the year, right? Well, that was, that was 2024 though, so you still 01:03:35
receive more money this year, so. 01:03:40
Well, in preliminary discussions with Christie. 01:03:45
Unfortunately couldn't be here tonight. 01:03:48
She intimated yes, we there was enough. 01:03:51
There's enough fluidity in that number that they could help make that payment the bond payment. 01:03:54
Right, but. 01:03:59
We OK. 01:04:00
I don't like that answer though, because it's. 01:04:02
There's only a couple what, 1020 thousand 20? There's not a lot left in what we. 01:04:05
What you're saying is, is that we bought some big things. 01:04:10
And in future years, maybe we won't buy other big things. 01:04:13
So we could then dedicate it for that is what you're saying? 01:04:16
What capital projects in different? What I'm saying is on the surface, the city has the cash flow to support the project. 01:04:19
Right, but. 01:04:28
But then you'd have to dedicate that money to that. 01:04:31
Well, you have to dedicate the money to something. So I guess the state is previous years we were dedicating that to something. 01:04:34
Is what I'm saying so? 01:04:41
All those other things that you did would there would be a then a gap. 01:04:42
Yes and no. So the city has to dedicate those. Well, it doesn't have to. You can't dedicate it in both places, right. So, but if 01:04:46
you have a capital project that you already paid for, in theory, you're not going to have that new capital project tomorrow, 01:04:51
correct, Right. But. 01:04:55
Some of it is capital project for the vast majority isn't capital project, yeah, it could be whatever services the city provides, 01:05:00
right. There was a lot of things that weren't capital projects in there, right. And what I'm saying is, is that now you would all 01:05:05
of those things moving forward over the next couple years, you wouldn't have that because you're now putting them in first place 01:05:10
to pay for that. So I guess my. 01:05:15
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but devil's advocate, right? 01:05:20
Is that you're going to have future needs of the city. So is this city center a future need of the city that you want to 01:05:23
prioritize? But I think that I agree, you're prioritizing it, but then you also have to account for that the city is going to 01:05:29
continue to receive increased sales tax based on historical trends. 01:05:34
Right. And I think that's where you could base yourself on something because what the information that Laura gave is that there 01:05:40
will be only A2, but there will be A. 01:05:44
$296,000 increase. 01:05:48
From one year to the next. So I give it that no, so that that was just based upon she wasn't predicting or trying to project, she 01:05:51
was saying. 01:05:56
If you used a simple interest rate to show investors saying, hey, here's a realistic. 01:06:00
Increase of that sales tax over the next couple of years, what that could be, she wasn't trying to predict or tell you. 01:06:05
This is what your availability is. That's simply based upon 2024 number project. Yeah, just kind of a projection of that's where I 01:06:11
feel like doing a market study would actually answer a lot of those questions. 01:06:16
Like it for our community. 01:06:21
Well, I think before. 01:06:23
You need to go there. I would like to have more time to work with staff to say. 01:06:25
Instead of just saying, oh, we spent that money. Well, yeah, you spent that money, but how did you spend that money and what are 01:06:30
those reoccurring costs moving forward to say, does the city need that money going forward? 01:06:35
Or is the city comfortable saying yeah, we need this city and I'm not here to say yeah or nay? 01:06:40
They say, well, the state center now is a priority. We need to make room in our budget to make these payments. 01:06:46
So I think the first of all we needed to say how was the money used? 01:06:52
In past. 01:06:56
Is that going to be a continued need of the city? 01:06:57
To come back to say. 01:07:00
Well, yeah, you have the capacity to make these payments and I think that we're in agreement or an agreement on that, that. 01:07:01
To me. 01:07:09
It's one thing to be able to say, yes, we can afford the payments with the cash flow that we have. It's another to say we can 01:07:11
afford the payments with the cash flow that we have and operate our city. And I think it's the answer to both of those that we 01:07:17
need to make sure that we have. Totally agree and or you know, because we did a fire station. 01:07:23
We're talking about. 01:07:29
Ice skating rink or a roller skating rink. Or, you know, the Lakefront master plan or the corridor. 01:07:30
Like there's all these. 01:07:37
You know, big projects that are going through and it's like that has been something that. 01:07:38
You know, we've been dreaming all of these other things. You eat that up. 01:07:43
With only a 290,000 increase on the 4%. 01:07:46
And you're showing us a $2,000,000 payment, not the 900,000. 01:07:50
We're short 1.4 million. 01:07:54
So it's like. 01:07:57
We've got to have a conversation of. 01:07:57
What else are we going to cut? Or. 01:08:00
What taxes are we going to increase to get to that $1.7 million shortfall? 01:08:03
Between the correct I think. 01:08:08
To be respectful, I think you're confusing some of the terms and some of the numbers that were shared of saying. 01:08:11
It's not that it's like you just have $290,000 increase. 01:08:16
There's all kinds of components that influence that factor. 01:08:19
And I think we need to do that now, working with staff to say. 01:08:23
How did you use your sales tax? How did you use your general fund? What numbers were there? 01:08:26
And to say hey, you're stealing it from 1 project to pay another project. 01:08:32
The city is evolving and what what, how does the city want to use its money, I guess is all I'm saying. So well, I'm just really 01:08:35
glad that you're that we're openly talking about. 01:08:39
It was spent. 01:08:43
Then it will move over to here and you can't use it with two hands. So it's like, yeah. 01:08:45
We got to have this conversation for the next 20 years. This is not going to be available completely, completely agree. So we 01:08:49
won't know. 01:08:52
Excuse me? 01:08:57
We won't know. 01:08:58
I guess what I'm wondering is when we sign or when we finalize the bond? 01:09:00
Will it be? I mean, I've seen with my mortgage, I know exactly what I'm paying for the next 30 years every month. Oh, you'll know 01:09:04
exactly. Yeah. So we'll see Like this is how many months we'll be paying. 01:09:10
For how many years we'll be paying 900,000? This is how many years we'll be paying more of that 2 million. So we'll actually have 01:09:15
a really good map of OK, at this point. You know, if it was too soon, then that would be really concerning if we were paying 2 01:09:20
million. 01:09:25
After the first year, that might not be as reasonable with our other projects we want to do. But if it's something where we're 01:09:30
paying 900,000 for the first few years or however many years, that might make it look more reasonable. So I don't feel like we can 01:09:37
really decide until we know what that looks like and we want to structure that to say. 01:09:43
And also. 01:09:50
Well, we want to. 01:09:52
Make a reasonable. 01:09:54
Assumptions moving forward of what that sales tax? 01:09:57
There's going to be different levels of that, right? Because there's going to be just the. 01:10:00
What do you think is going to happen in the city? Like what? What's reasonable this that you can? 01:10:03
Say, hey, that's we're gonna What do we want to show investors of being conservative? 01:10:08
And then also having some buffer than her to say hey, heaven forbid everything goes sideways. 01:10:12
These tariffs go to 50% and we can't buy anything anymore. 01:10:16
Does the city still have the capacity to make these at a basic level? So yes, we will run different scenarios to make sure we're 01:10:21
very comfortable. 01:10:25
And structure the debt so that you have the runway to absorb this and you have the runway to, hey, do you need to shift some 01:10:28
projects around like with Mr. Holloway is saying, hey, we have capital needs of the city. 01:10:34
Unfortunately, your growing pains, right, because you're trying to figure out what can we build now, what do we need now? What's 01:10:40
going to serve the city not only today but 10 years from now? 01:10:44
But also you have other capital you're gonna have to prioritize and budget for these projects. 01:10:49
So I want to tell you. 01:10:53
Councilwoman Sifuentes made a comment that was making me think in the way you answered it was making me think about it, something 01:10:54
that we were talking about just a little bit earlier. 01:10:57
If we know the full payment schedule and the amortization schedule up front. 01:11:01
When we were talking earlier about rates and that it's fixed rate, but then in terms of. 01:11:06
The. 01:11:12
I'm still not 100% clear on how that works. 01:11:14
So what I want to? 01:11:17
Understand, or at least get a comment that makes me feel more comfortable with it. 01:11:19
Is. 01:11:23
What it was making me think is that the rate that a bondholder earns is not necessarily. 01:11:25
Influenced by the payment that we're making. 01:11:32
That's kind of what I heard and I'm not sure if that's. 01:11:34
Right or not? 01:11:36
No SO, but I already know what the fixed payment is. 01:11:37
Then then I'm having a hard time reconciling that a rate somewhere could change that we don't know what it is yet. 01:11:40
Think of it a different way. 01:11:46
Instead of thinking of all the different bond payments, say that you're Mr. Clausen saying, hey, I want to buy bonds. 01:11:48
And you want to buy whatever bond you is. 01:11:53
I have $100,000 and I'm going to say, hey, I don't need $100,000 for 10 years, so I'm going to buy a bond in 10 years from now. 01:11:56
And that $100,000 is going to be invested for 10 years. 01:12:04
You know in 10 years that you're gonna get your principal back, so you're not gonna receive any principal until you're 10. 01:12:08
And you're going to earn that like. 01:12:13
3.27%. 01:12:17
So you know for your $100,000 that you're receiving 3.27% over the next 10 years? 01:12:19
All the bondholders know they have their schedule of what their and their principal is going to amortize. 01:12:25
And that all of that average together is what we'll report back to you. So everyone is more sense. That makes sense, yeah. 01:12:30
I liked. 01:12:38
Councilman Days. 01:12:39
Question about when you come back. 01:12:40
And we vote on it. 01:12:43
So you go out to the market. 01:12:45
You'll get the parameters. You'll come back and say hey. 01:12:48
900 thousand the first year, 1.5 the second, whatever. 01:12:51
2 million and we will then vote. 01:12:55
And do an administrative vote. 01:12:59
On. 01:13:02
We are because we've pre authorized you tonight. 01:13:05
On what those parameters are? 01:13:08
Then we can always back out through an administrative vote later. 01:13:11
Once you go to the market. 01:13:15
No SO. 01:13:17
Over what we're doing today is a super parameters and so that will give us the parameters that we can execute the transaction. 01:13:19
We will work closely with staff to make sure that they keep you apprised of the process because. 01:13:26
The next few steps I'll talk. I'll talk about the steps here in a few minutes. 01:13:31
But once we go out to market and sell those bonds, we're locked and loaded and we're back out after tonight after. 01:13:34
Now, after today, yes, you can back out. 01:13:40
We're not going to sell the bonds for. 01:13:43
A couple of months yet, right? This is the first step in a process. There has to be a public hearing process, driving documents, 01:13:45
getting ratings. 01:13:49
This is simply the first step in that process. 01:13:52
The city can still yes, if we. 01:13:54
So yeah, here's the process. So. 01:13:56
Over the next, we've identified a project city center. 01:13:59
We will engage with the various partners. 01:14:03
We adopt A bond parameters to kind of. 01:14:05
Like I said, there's different noticing and different time constraints that we have to address. 01:14:08
And the bond parameters gets that ball rolling. 01:14:13
We'll draft a variety of fun bond documents that you can. 01:14:15
That we will read that talk about the security qualifying for the tax exemption and all of that. 01:14:19
We meet with a bond rating agencies. 01:14:25
Unlike your. 01:14:27
Unlike your personal finances again. 01:14:30
Your your credit score is. 01:14:32
760 dependent, regardless if you're buying a house or credit card or. 01:14:34
Or a car, right? Well, the city, if you remember you, the city sold water and sewer revenue bonds. Oh, was that last year or two 01:14:39
years ago? I forget. 01:14:44
You have your rating on those bonds. Well, that rating is only for those series of bonds. 01:14:48
Now we're going to go out for sales tax revenue bonds. You actually get a rating on this once you cities can have multiple 01:14:53
different credit ratings. 01:14:56
So that's where the rating agencies. 01:14:59
Once we get the rating back, then we'll disseminate an offering document to the investing public. 01:15:01
What price of bonds and clothes so the city can pull the plug on this process for the next? 01:15:05
Three months, call it, and then once, but once we go and price the bonds, then we're locked and we'll close and we can't back out. 01:15:11
Before you lock, do you come back and ask us for a vote? 01:15:15
No, tonight is the you're delegating all of the authority to price and sell these bonds today. We can come back and provide you 01:15:19
updates along the way if you like. 01:15:23
But tonight, we'll delegate all the authority to the Pricing Committee. 01:15:28
OK. So this was the question I asked to Jamie and I don't know if it goes to you or our attorney. Is tonight the legislative vote 01:15:31
to authorize this or the executive? 01:15:35
Or the administrative vote. 01:15:40
On these fonts. 01:15:41
Is this a legislative action or an administrative? 01:15:44
So the. 01:15:47
The statute on referendum and that's what you're referring to is you're trying to. 01:15:49
Trying to get. 01:15:53
An answer on whether tonight is the. 01:15:54
Potential for. 01:15:57
For you to lead a referendum on this particular action if it doesn't go the way you want. 01:15:58
So the city attorney or to know what my action is as a council member? 01:16:03
So what you're asking is for the city attorney. Let's just make an assumption here that. 01:16:08
The vote goes to approve this tonight. 01:16:14
And then so as representing the city. 01:16:17
The voice of the city has been made. 01:16:20
And So what you're asking is potentially to help me and to create a conflict of interest between myself and. 01:16:23
The majority of the City Council. 01:16:29
So the. 01:16:31
That particular question. 01:16:33
They're in the referendum statute. There is a very specific point in time where the city attorney weighs in on whether or not the 01:16:35
issue is referrable. 01:16:38
So it would be premature for the city attorney to weigh whether it's me or Jamie sitting here. 01:16:42
To weigh in on that particular question because. 01:16:46
I'm gonna have to myself or Jamie or somebody, the city attorney in that role. 01:16:49
We'll have to weigh in on that later. 01:16:53
So there's not a preview or a. 01:16:55
You know it depends on. 01:16:58
A number of factors that go into it. 01:17:00
Sometimes it can be legislative, sometimes it can be. 01:17:02
Administrative. 01:17:05
So why have a public hearing on May 14th of tonight is all done? Said and done. 01:17:06
Why wouldn't you do that? Because the public can still come in and and you can talk to you. 01:17:12
Madam Mayor, Members of Council. 01:17:19
Mr. Holloway. 01:17:23
The reason to have a public hearing is there's a requirement under the Utah Municipal Bond Act that requires to have a public 01:17:24
hearing before you can issue bonds and that's why the public hearing is held. 01:17:28
Yeah, but it would. It would. 01:17:35
Let me give you a little bit of history. 01:17:36
So, umm. 01:17:38
Brad may have some more history on this one. I think he's four days older than older than I am. 01:17:39
But it used there used to be kind of a 2 step process. We used to have a parameter resolution, then you come back for the final 01:17:44
bond resolution. 01:17:47
The tricky thing there becomes. 01:17:51
When you get ready to sell bonds, we can't have, we can't sell bonds and come back to the council to say, well, did you approve 01:17:55
this, the bond sale? 01:17:58
Because if you go out and sell bonds. 01:18:02
In our world. 01:18:04
Selling bonds is very much a handshake and reputation basis, so if we went on sold bonds, I got everyone to commit to buy the 01:18:05
bonds. 01:18:09
And then also the City Council reneged on it. 01:18:12
It would be very bad for the city trying to sell bonds in the future. 01:18:15
So now what you do is you get this approval, you go through the public hearing to say, hey, the public is airing. 01:18:19
Any comments on this one? 01:18:25
But it allows you to move forward along the process if there's any any process any. 01:18:26
Period along the way. The city doesn't want to do this. 01:18:31
You're not saying you have to do the project tonight. You're not saying you will do it. You're simply saying, hey, we're 01:18:34
delegating the authority to have this process that if everything continues to line up. 01:18:39
That we will continue to move forward, but if there was a future time that the city didn't want to do it. 01:18:44
This will just not go forward with the project. It looks like we've established that between now and then you can. 01:18:49
Change how you feel about it and there'll be a process that it goes through and we now know. 01:18:56
When our attorney can weigh in on it. So let's continue with the discussion. 01:19:02
I do want to clarify. 01:19:06
I think it's important for the council members to understand that if we for some reason. 01:19:08
After the public hearing or in any of this process, what steps would be required? 01:19:16
Lake we, I don't think there's an official action like a council process, do we? Just like e-mail you and say hey. 01:19:21
We want to look at this again. 01:19:29
Well, we do know that this is going to come on to the agenda on May 14th if you approve it. It's in the. 01:19:31
What is it called the recommendation? 01:19:38
Or the motion, excuse me, So you know that this will be on the agenda and if you change your mind during that time, you will have 01:19:40
a public hearing time to make a different decision. 01:19:45
So because it's on the agenda that would give the opportunity, I'm so sorry, that would give you that opportunity to make a motion 01:19:51
to say. 01:19:54
This isn't what we're expecting. 01:19:58
My concern is more of. 01:20:01
I I don't. 01:20:04
I don't want to just approve it. 01:20:07
Without understanding what our payments are, I don't want to just. 01:20:09
Like I want there to be a process. Can we vote to have something in the agenda? 01:20:13
To have an update on this so that we are being. 01:20:18
We're fully aware of what we're doing over the mayor. That's fine. I want to add in. Go ahead, Pam. 01:20:21
The 14th will strictly be a public hearing. There will be no. 01:20:27
Other motion made at that one. 01:20:31
No, but decide what you want to. But it is an opportunity to make a different decision. If we wanted to pull back, that presents 01:20:34
an opportunity where it's coming to the public. 01:20:38
So, yeah, so you'd have to make a motion to put it on the next agenda after that. So if you want to put it on, yeah, then that 01:20:43
might be what you would want to do. I guess I just don't want this to be like, OK, we approved it. 01:20:49
And we talked about three to five months and then all of a sudden, you know, at day 90, bonds are being sold. And I'm like, oh 01:20:54
crap, I missed out three months. So Marty, just to clarify. 01:21:00
Because it's coming on that agenda. If you wanted us to expand that agenda item, I'd be happy to do that. And then if you wanted 01:21:07
to put it on, we'll be in a public meet. I mean, well, it'll be on the agenda so you can. 01:21:12
Put that into the next meeting. So. 01:21:18
You'll have time before it goes according to that timeline. Just to clarify, that's only a month and a half away. 01:21:20
We will, we have all the numbers. No, what I would suggest, and I want you to be 100% this. These are big decisions. We don't want 01:21:26
to force this down your throat and we don't want to just. 01:21:31
Ramrod this down if you want. 01:21:37
Monthly or whatever period of time or some kind of reporting. 01:21:39
Status. We're happy to do that. If you want just a hey, here's A1 pager of what the status of where we're at. 01:21:43
This is kind of how things are. This is how the market is. This is how. 01:21:49
The feedback from Maggie, we're happy to provide our. 01:21:52
Realistically. 01:21:56
Regular basis? Well, otherwise they feel like worse. 01:21:57
I just. 01:22:02
I would really appreciate that as a council member, because I don't want to just say. 01:22:03
You know, OK, $35 million check. It feels kind of like a blank check in a way. I know it's. 01:22:08
Got a Max of 35 million. 01:22:14
But if things are adjusted and mags maybe only pain. 01:22:16
Instead of 1/3 they're paying 25% or something. I I want to be fully apprised to all of this. Yeah, we'd happy to do public 01:22:19
equally. 01:22:23
Would need to be. So I think this is a really important part of the discussion we had a little bit earlier where people were 01:22:28
asking, well, are we going to have to prioritize? Are we going to look at our economics? And I think David did a nice job saying. 01:22:35
The standard operating procedure for this is to set these parameters. 01:22:42
And then to go back and find all of that information. 01:22:47
And that's just part of the process. So to follow this process, Marty, the way that we'll do this to ensure what you're saying is 01:22:50
that the next meeting. 01:22:55
We can expand the agenda item. 01:23:00
Or we can. 01:23:02
If we don't have it then. 01:23:04
You can request another agenda item and we'll keep adding it. 01:23:06
Until that time comes, and that'll be our process. 01:23:10
I can't remember, are you on a? 01:23:13
By do you meet every two weeks, twice a month or once a month? That's twice a month. OK, Yeah. We, we're yeah. 01:23:15
However, yeah, we can. However, wants to report back. We'll report back. 01:23:20
Yeah. And I think what we'll do is we. 01:23:24
The City Council meets with the city manager before these meetings and we'll let them know if it's ready and then you can decide 01:23:27
when you want to put it on the agenda. 01:23:31
So. 01:23:35
I think it's a good process. We already have a launching point for the next meeting. 01:23:36
Great. 01:23:41
I think not only. 01:23:42
Because we. 01:23:44
Can't spend the same dollar twice. 01:23:46
And we're talking about a $2,000,000 payment. 01:23:48
And, umm. 01:23:52
It's going into our three-point. 01:23:53
For 3.2. 01:23:56
$1,000,000 sales tax. 01:24:00
I think. 01:24:02
The study of what we spent that. 01:24:03
Not only one year ago, but. 01:24:07
The last two years so it gives you. 01:24:09
An understanding of was it just capital projects? 01:24:11
But then also a forecast of. 01:24:14
What are all the other capital projects that we have promised voters? 01:24:17
Just in writing, I'm thinking many of them. 01:24:20
That OK? Could that even fit in? 01:24:23
And then the other thing is is. 01:24:25
It's not. It's not the other thing. It's the. 01:24:29
The increase is only. 01:24:34
Tonight or we're hoping 4% of 290. 01:24:36
Or 4% would be 290,000. 01:24:40
OK. If we're going to say we're not going to cut these capital? 01:24:43
Projects or whatever. 01:24:47
Because we've made a promise. 01:24:49
We're not going to increase sales tax. Well, we can't increase sales tax because we're at the state Max of sales tax. So it's 01:24:51
maxed everybody like when I looked at. 01:24:56
The rest of the county, everyone's at the mat. Yep. So like we're higher on sales tax than everybody else, right? So we can't do 01:25:00
that. 01:25:04
But we're short. 01:25:08
Were short 101.7 million so it's. 01:25:09
We've made promises socially of we're not going to increase any other taxes. So it's like. 01:25:13
We have to look at what we spend. 01:25:19
But then we also have to go. 01:25:21
How do you not raise any other taxes if you're short 1.7 off of if the increase is only? 01:25:23
300K. 01:25:29
You know the hoping that it increases 300K and I want to clarify and when we I want to put together a schedule so we can clarify 01:25:30
some of these components so we're not. 01:25:34
Conflicting comment. 01:25:39
Making sure all the terms are straight in front of us and we're the cash flows and all of that so. 01:25:41
I think that will be helpful because saying we're short or saying that there's promises out there or. 01:25:47
Basing math off of parameters that we're not actually going to, we're unlikely to. 01:25:54
No, that increases what Laura gave us. 01:26:01
Yeah, but it. 01:26:04
Based off of 4% growth. 01:26:06
That's not my number. 01:26:08
Let David go ahead. Eric, did you have something? Yeah, I just want to reiterate because it was already said tonight that. 01:26:09
That the 4% and then the 1%. 01:26:16
Was a worst case scenario. It was not intending to capture. 01:26:18
Any of. 01:26:23
Of the known growth that's happening in the city here over the next few years. 01:26:24
It did not incorporate the grocery store, the hotels or the OR the other developments that are coming into the city. 01:26:28
It was simply. 01:26:34
A feasibility study to determine what our debt service coverage was. 01:26:36
And so. 01:26:40
Going back to that 4% as though that is a. 01:26:42
Number to lean on. 01:26:45
Is probably not the right number to be leaning on. 01:26:47
Our sales tax growth over the last few years has been. 01:26:51
Substantially greater than that, 12 to 20% per year. 01:26:55
And so. 01:26:59
Doing a study that you're talking about, although that would come at an extra cost to us. 01:27:00
May be of great benefit because I think that. 01:27:04
What we're? 01:27:07
Experiencing and what we anticipate coming in the near future is. 01:27:09
Not just, well, not only that, but it's not. There are a lot of numbers that are being thrown out that are. 01:27:14
What is it called? 01:27:23
Yeah, their estimations or their ideas or their parameters. For instance, it's like a credit card and you have. 01:27:25
You know $4000 on your credit card, but you only ever spend $100 on it, but you could spend 4000. 01:27:32
And so somebody is saying, Can you believe we are spending 4000, but we actually only spend it for gas and so we only spend 01:27:40
$120.00 a month. 01:27:44
Those are the numbers and the ranges that are being thrown out right now, and they're not accurate. 01:27:48
It's like and when you say, well there's a 6%. 01:27:53
Interest rate at a $35 million. 01:27:56
Building, but when we're talking about the market and the numbers go down to the. 01:28:01
You know 4.5. Those numbers are pretty far off. Additionally. 01:28:06
We're in the middle of architecture and design right now, so. 01:28:10
We're going through this process and we don't even know the portion. 01:28:14
Of the cost that the city will assess because this isn't a government 1. 01:28:18
Building City Hall that we're talking about, this is a. 01:28:25
Shared center, where Vineyard is inserting space inside it to house the people who work here and give the daily services that we 01:28:29
all expect to see. But we don't know those costs. 01:28:36
So I think Marty stated it well that we'd like to see those actuals come back. And then David said it well that he liked to put. 01:28:43
An actual number sheet together so that we can state proper numbers. 01:28:51
For the public and for us who have to make this decision. 01:28:56
Love it. 01:29:00
Let's move off this topic though, because we can't quote those numbers at this point. 01:29:02
I wasn't going to quote those. I was only gonna actually agree with Eric in that. 01:29:07
The 4% sales tax was larger. We actually saw a total revenue increase of about 33%. 01:29:11
Of other taxes or whatever. So I think that is. 01:29:18
You know, there's different businesses. Topgolf was a huge, it was a huge 1. And so I, I agree, like you could see businesses. 01:29:22
But The thing is, is Laura didn't base that. She's like. 01:29:30
We're not going to base it off of that. And I was like, well. 01:29:33
OK. I'd love to see those numbers beforehand. 01:29:36
But at the same rate. 01:29:38
Even though we saw 33% increase, we saw. 01:29:40
A 43% increase in spend. 01:29:44
So. 01:29:47
Yeah, revenue went up, but our spending went way up. And so, but my, my scare is. 01:29:48
You're going to go take that money when our spending like we hire another. 01:29:54
Deputy Recorder, we have this growth of all these things that we need and we're locking it in. So that's why I'm afraid of that. 01:29:58
1.7 million. Yeah. I'd like to see that study from staff and LRB to see what those actually looked like, because I know, yeah, 01:30:04
Councilman Holdaway, you and I were going back and forth on this a little bit today and I was looking at different numbers and I 01:30:10
got completely different percentages and. 01:30:15
One of us is inaccurate in our interpretation. I honestly don't know who. 01:30:22
Yeah. So I would love to see, I would love to see that study happen. 01:30:26
So. 01:30:30
Get some more accurate resolution to well and I think it's important to remember that she was basing up off of conservative 01:30:32
estimates like. 01:30:36
Eric was saying so that we can be careful with how we're spending and we can be thoughtful about putting those numbers forward. 01:30:41
And while we do that, maybe it would be good to pull up what we actually spent those dollars on and where the funds came from and 01:30:49
how they're separate. 01:30:53
And like for instance, some of the money that went out last year was to pay down debt early and close out certain things or? 01:30:58
There's some things that came from property tax that's totally outside of this, So what does it look like? 01:31:06
We can add that to this. I think the final, the clarifying item too is like the city's not going to have a debt service payment 01:31:11
for the next couple of fiscal years. 01:31:15
Not first payment is going to be like in today's interest rate less than $1,000,000 so. 01:31:19
To be saying hey we're paying $2,000,000 out of the gates isn't accurate because the first payment that's not going to be for. 01:31:24
Years to come, so there's still some ways to absorb this and that's why I said. 01:31:29
Their structuring and thought to still go into this process so. 01:31:34
Was there and I can't remember there's any more slides. 01:31:37
I don't just say I agree with the market study for breadth. Thanks, that's a good idea. 01:31:41
I think we talked about the parameters. Like I said, the parameters sets the ball in motion. 01:31:45
There, there's going to be some public hearings, there's some contestability periods that we have to just kind of get out, get out 01:31:51
of the way. 01:31:54
This is a very standard. This is how. 01:31:58
Not saying it's right or wrong, but this is just how it's done. 01:32:01
Statewide and nationwide. So this is. 01:32:04
How we're going about it? Super parameters? I still remember the conversion. 01:32:07
Sitting Richard Scott's office years ago when this first started so. 01:32:10
Next slide, please. 01:32:14
OK. I think we've kind of hit on all of these, but just to reiterate. 01:32:16
If the City Council wants to proceed with this. 01:32:21
We'll get the ball rolling. We'll coordinate with staff on working with the numbers. 01:32:23
My guess is we'll probably hang back on drafting documents until we come back to the city. Just saying, hey, make sure this all 01:32:29
cash flows. 01:32:32
We have a call not to put Mag on the spot, but we have a call with Mag here. 01:32:36
The middle. 01:32:41
April to understand their level of participation. 01:32:42
I know the staff are working with the architect and contractor because we want to make sure we have what that what the what the 01:32:46
project looks like and getting all those construction contracts in place. 01:32:52
And then working towards getting the documents in place so we can go and secure the bond rating. 01:32:58
I think those are the major next steps. 01:33:03
Then I think Wilbur's report back on a timely basis just to make sure this the Council has the information and timely basis. 01:33:05
All right. But thank you for the discussion tonight. I know. 01:33:12
There's different thoughts, So what makes the world go around? But we welcome, we really do welcome the feedback from everyone to 01:33:15
make sure everyone's comfortable. 01:33:18
Thank you, Council. Do you have questions? 01:33:22
Comments. 01:33:26
I'd like to say thank you for being so. 01:33:28
Prepared and patient with all of us. You're most welcome. These are big decisions in and then I have one about the the the 01:33:31
resolution, but maybe that one needs to wait. 01:33:36
I'm curious if we can amend this. 01:33:42
To include the. 01:33:45
To make the market study. 01:33:47
Required. 01:33:50
Do you want to make it required or do you want to come back to it after? We find the numbers from working with staff so that if 01:33:52
they have what they need and you can see the the. 01:33:56
The cost from the incoming economic development that we don't have to pay the additional funding for the study. 01:34:01
That's a good question. 01:34:12
To me that it would come down to how much the additional study would. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious the cost of doing a market study. 01:34:13
What if we bring that dollars? What if we bring? 01:34:18
Brett, what if we bring that comment back to the public hearing? 01:34:24
And then if we need to, we can. 01:34:27
Add it on to something future. 01:34:31
I mean, if you guys want to do it now, that would be my recommendation. But if you guys want to bring, I'm OK with that. I just 01:34:33
know that. 01:34:36
For for my part. 01:34:40
I'm comfortable with the parameters. 01:34:42
But I'm. 01:34:44
Not 100% there. 01:34:45
For actually selling the bonds without seeing. 01:34:48
More details on Not Just the Bond. 01:34:52
Structure. But on how it affects the city's operations, do you guys feel like you can? 01:34:55
Gather information that would be meaningful to Brett's comment without this study. Or do you need us to? 01:35:01
We can. We can definitely provide. 01:35:07
Meaningful information to address it and then. 01:35:10
In my in my from my experience, yes, but I understand. 01:35:13
You have a responsibility to your constituents, so I believe that we can provide enough information to at least. 01:35:17
Address it and then we can maybe at that point decide, hey, we need more information. 01:35:22
I guess my question about the resolution is. 01:35:26
I just, I know we've talked about not selling bonds until we've discussed it over and over. 01:35:30
I don't want to legally bind myself into hey, legally on paper in this resolution, I did say you guys could sell bonds. 01:35:37
But uh. 01:35:45
So I don't know if we can make an amendment to the resolution that clarifies. 01:35:46
That we are. 01:35:50
That we are not. 01:35:52
Like these are the bond parameters that we're not ready to just. 01:35:53
Say they can sell the bonds. 01:35:57
I think you have a path moving forward and it's this one. 01:35:59
In order for them to get all of the studies done and have the ability to do what they need to do. 01:36:02
It would be best, I think, if we move forward and then if you don't like where the numbers are headed. 01:36:08
Let's pull back on it. 01:36:13
Because your hands truly aren't tied in this, which I think were made really clear. What? I want to say something else too. I 01:36:15
understand what you're saying, the consternation here. 01:36:20
The professionals here, we're not like. 01:36:25
Driving our own bus, we only started this because the city reached out to us, so we're only going to act. 01:36:28
If you want us to act so, I understand your. 01:36:34
I I really respect that and I actually feel really comfortable and confident working with LRB. I think more than anything is I 01:36:37
just take. 01:36:41
What I legally, contractually vote on seriously. And so I don't know if our attorney wants to pipe in. 01:36:45
But I'm just wondering. 01:36:52
I don't want it. I don't enjoy voting yes on something. 01:36:54
When I'm like. 01:36:58
You know, just kidding, we're not really doing that. 01:37:00
You know what I mean? Like I don't want it to be something that I don't want there to be any confusion on what the intentions are 01:37:02
here today. I guess think of it a different way. This is just the first step in the process. 01:37:07
Like we're not, we're not to the final, we're not to the one yard, 1 yard line yet. 01:37:13
This is simply in our world because we're dealing with tax exempt securities. 01:37:17
We have to jump through a number of hoops and this is simply the first hoop to get that. 01:37:21
To get the circus going, and I do appreciate that. I guess I was just hoping the attorney would pipe in. Well, and the other 01:37:25
question too is where what do you need clarity on? 01:37:29
I want to understand the payment. 01:37:34
The payment schedule. 01:37:37
I want to understand the bond rates, what they're likely going to be. 01:37:39
More a little bit more concise. 01:37:44
This is a really big commitment and I don't want to go in. 01:37:47
Just with. 01:37:50
Those rose colored glasses, I want to go in with all the facts and information. 01:37:51
To make sure that I can back my vote. So this vote. 01:37:56
Gives them the ability. 01:38:01
To go and get you that information, and I understand that, but I also heard earlier that this vote gives them the permission to 01:38:03
sell the bonds. 01:38:07
So I need to. I want to hear from her attorney. 01:38:12
To understand that better, I actually think that question is best answered by. 01:38:15
That Brad. 01:38:20
Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. 01:38:22
I think there are a lot of different ways you can go tonight. You can go ahead and adopt the resolution in its current form. 01:38:24
You could table the resolution if you wanted to, or you could go ahead and make an amendment to the resolution to make you more 01:38:30
comfortable such that either you add to the list of the designated officers so that you can be part of the one of the designated 01:38:35
officers that gets to see those terms. 01:38:41
Or we can just also bring it back. 01:38:47
At another council meeting as well, I will tell you that. 01:38:50
If uh. 01:38:53
The bond terms are going to be subject to a council approval. There is some. 01:38:54
Kind of uncertainty associated with that. 01:39:00
Just given kind of what the market conditions are and given what underwriters conditions, underwriters requirements are. 01:39:02
And so there may be a little bit of flexibility that you have to give up. 01:39:09
In order to do that. But once again, that's for you to decide. That's not my decision. That's a policy decision for you to decide. 01:39:13
So I think you can proceed in a number of different ways. One of the things that this does, as David said, this gets the ball 01:39:21
rolling. It does a couple of different things. That first of all allows us to go ahead and publish various things, start certain 01:39:27
contestability periods. It also allows us to go ahead and reimburse ourselves or the city allows the city can reimburse itself. 01:39:34
From bond proceeds for purposes of federal income tax. 01:39:41
It starts that clock rolling as well. And so it's just a matter of what you would like to do and. 01:39:44
Mayor, what if you? Oh, go ahead. 01:39:50
I was just going to say. 01:39:53
To Brad's point. 01:39:54
There is representation on that bond. 01:39:57
List of designees. The bond committee. 01:40:02
I don't know if you want to. 01:40:05
Arrange for that. 01:40:07
Make up tonight. 01:40:09
It designates the mayor a council member. 01:40:11
And the city manager, if I'm not mistaken. 01:40:14
And so. 01:40:17
One of those individuals. 01:40:18
You can make it however you decide. 01:40:20
So one of the things we could do which we could do that. 01:40:22
And Brett sits on the Finance Committee, so it might be a good idea to put him on there. 01:40:27
But one of the things that we could do. 01:40:31
Is vote this through? 01:40:34
And then if you feel more comfortable to say the next time we're voting or before bonds go out. 01:40:37
That you expand your opportunity for the agenda on the May 14th. 01:40:44
That way you're still meeting your timelines and you could put that stipulation in so it allows them to move forward, but then it 01:40:49
gives you kind of a, a barrier that says, hey, I'm expanding this. 01:40:55
And I want to see it again before this goes out. 01:41:00
So it doesn't. 01:41:04
Impede anything. 01:41:05
But it also. 01:41:06
Stop setting gives you kind of. 01:41:07
Multiple steps in between. 01:41:09
In you said contestability timelines. Could you describe what are all the contestability? 01:41:14
Things that could happen, Brad, you wanna do that? 01:41:19
Is that like referendum stuff? Yeah, In addition to that, in addition to the referendums there are. 01:41:24
The ability to file a lawsuit. 01:41:31
Against the bonds that would join the issuance of the bonds. 01:41:33
So that's that. That's particular portion of the statute that provides it. 01:41:39
If a lawsuit isn't filed within a certain period of time that they're forever barred from doing that, it is beneficial to 01:41:44
bondholders. 01:41:49
To know that their bonds aren't going to be challenged, that their bonds are going to be valid and binding. 01:41:53
Gives them some certainty and helps it out. Helps to market the bonds. 01:41:57
But those are the 22 main things, a lawsuit and a referenda. 01:42:01
This question isn't for you, but it's it's more for Pam being that we move this meeting to this week because you guys are going to 01:42:06
be out. 01:42:10
If you're out of the office, do citizens still get their seven day period? How does that work? How would they reach you if you're 01:42:13
out of the office? They still get their period. They can just turn it in at the office so they'll date and timestamp it for us and 01:42:18
and e-mail it to us so we can get going on the process. 01:42:24
OK. Would you guys be out all next week? 01:42:29
Yes, we're out all next week. 01:42:34
Are you out tomorrow? 01:42:36
Tony should be in tomorrow. 01:42:39
Yeah, no, I'll be in the office. 01:42:42
Tomorrow, half day. 01:42:43
Yeah, till well. 01:42:45
Until the offices close at noon. 01:42:47
OK, thanks. 01:42:49
Kate, any other comments? 01:42:53
All right, if there are no other comments, I'll say that I think this is a. 01:43:02
A good opportunity to move forward so that we can. 01:43:07
Get these numbers brought before us and. 01:43:10
Really research this and decide if this is the way that we want to move forward as a city and make sure that we are prioritizing 01:43:14
things. 01:43:18
The right way. 01:43:21
I do want to make a comment for the public. 01:43:23
We have been talking about this first several years, probably since 2022. 01:43:26
And figuring out ways to prioritize and time things for the public. And one of the things that we've been doing is. 01:43:32
Spreading. 01:43:39
Then getting trailers, moving people into different locations, and doing everything we can to make sure that we're timing these 01:43:40
things at the right time and even now. 01:43:45
Instead of building a building that fits, we are saying, hey, let's create partnerships. Let's really get creative here. 01:43:50
To create a very financial. 01:43:59
Financially feasible way for us to. 01:44:01
Get the space that we need. 01:44:04
To continuing continue to deliver base services because that's what we do in Vineyard is we deliver base services. 01:44:06
And limited recreation. 01:44:15
But we need places for our staff. 01:44:17
Resources and facilities. 01:44:20
That we can continue to operate as we grow and this is a really creative, great solution for our community. 01:44:22
That we can look into more and make sure that it's an affordable opportunity for us, but it's definitely something that we need 01:44:28
because we. 01:44:32
Are in little alcoves and hallways and three and four and five people to a room and switching spots, and we're about to lose a 01:44:36
Conference Center. 01:44:40
So we we want to continue to deliver that service. 01:44:45
That you guys. 01:44:50
Really want in our community for quality of life. With that I will ask. 01:44:51
The City Council for a motion. 01:44:56
Don't be shy. 01:45:12
If you have more questions, ask more questions, otherwise to table it. 01:45:14
Anyone. Did you make a motion to table it? 01:45:19
All right, we have a motion to kill it. 01:45:23
Is there a second? 01:45:26
OK, there's no second. 01:45:30
Can I get another motion? 01:45:32
I believe in you. 01:45:38
All on you. 01:45:40
I moved to adopt A resolution 252025 dash 15. 01:45:42
With the stipulation that we add it to the. 01:45:47
May 14th agenda as well. 01:45:52
Is that how I'm supposed to do that? So here's here's a couple things that you'll need to do. You'll move to adopt the resolution 01:45:54
to 20 2020, 25-15 as presented. You'll set the public hearing for May 14th, 2025. 01:46:00
Then you'll expand the opportunity to discuss. 01:46:07
And make a vote on this again. 01:46:11
Not a vote on this, but kind of, I mean it is a vote. You'll just expand it for discussion and action. 01:46:14
Before it goes out to bot. 01:46:20
Selling the bonds was Marty's opportunity that she wanted to add on to it. 01:46:22
And you can say so moved. 01:46:28
So move we have a first by Brett. Did we want to add Brett as a? 01:46:30
Was it not a stakeholder or a? 01:46:37
Designated Officer, just for the record, yes, I would like that friendly amendment. I would like to add that amendment as well. 01:46:41
All right, thank you, Marty. I have a first by Brett. Can I get a second? 01:46:46
Second Second by Sarah. 01:46:52
Any discussion? Can I get a clarification? Does that make it? 01:46:54
With your legal understanding, does that make it so you guys can go to the market and move or you're just waiting two more weeks? 01:46:58
So with those stipulations, so the stipulation gets the ball rolling. 01:47:05
My understanding that we'll come back to the City Council on May 14th and present. 01:47:08
Numbers, and so all the various numbers we talked about. 01:47:12
And if the City Council likes, it will continue chugging forward. And if not, we'll stop. 01:47:16
Yeah, it is not stop. This moves it forward tonight. 01:47:20
All right, Jake. 01:47:23
Nay, Brett. 01:47:25
Hi, Marty. Hi, Sarah. 01:47:27
All right. Thank you for coming today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good night. 01:47:30
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April 3rd, 2025. The time is 603. 00:00:00
We're going to start out with an invocation and Pledge of Allegiance and. 00:00:05
Sarah will go ahead and lead us in that. 00:00:09
Our dear Father in heaven, we come before Thee at the beginning of this meeting and ask Thy Spirit to be with us. 00:00:16
That that will help us to. 00:00:22
Make it productive and useful. 00:00:24
That we'll be able to address concerns and. 00:00:27
Relay the facts of. 00:00:31
The things happening in the city and. 00:00:33
We pray that. 00:00:35
We will have. 00:00:36
A heart of. 00:00:38
Seeking understanding and. 00:00:39
Collaboration. 00:00:41
We love the and we're grateful. 00:00:43
For thy spirit and. 00:00:44
Thy guidance and inspiration. And we say these things in the sacred name of Jesus Christ, Amen. 00:00:46
All the rise. 00:00:54
I pledge allegiance to the flag. 00:00:57
United States of America. 00:01:01
For which it stands. 00:01:04
One nation under God. 00:01:05
With liberty and justice for all. 00:01:09
All right, we'll go ahead and start out with public comments. This is a time for you to address the Council with things that are 00:01:21
not on the agenda that you wanted to bring. 00:01:25
Forward. 00:01:30
If you want to go ahead and speak at the podium, state your name, you'll have two minutes and. 00:01:31
Share your concerns with us. 00:01:36
Kim Cornelius Villas. 00:01:48
Kept kind of a low profile over the last several weeks. 00:01:52
I don't like just. 00:01:57
Talking to hear myself talk. So I've been pretty reserved. 00:01:59
Circumstances are such that. 00:02:03
I wanted to share with you a thought. 00:02:06
That has come after a. 00:02:09
Very touching and heartwarming experience I had yesterday afternoon. 00:02:12
In the home of Don and Corey Overson. 00:02:16
Just to review, Don passed away a couple of weeks ago and I. 00:02:19
Just felt like it was important since we're. 00:02:23
Very close neighbors to. 00:02:25
Go by and Justice visit with Corey and he was probably one of the best 45 minutes I've spent in a long time. 00:02:27
I know a lot of strong women. 00:02:34
But to see what she's. 00:02:36
Doing in the circumstances that she finds herself in. 00:02:38
Is truly remarkable. 00:02:42
In the course of our discussion, she shared with me that the city had reached out to her and offered to. 00:02:44
In dedication to Don put his name on a city water tank. 00:02:51
I didn't know whether to laugh. 00:02:58
Or to just set their stone faced. 00:03:00
But I did share that with some friends and. 00:03:03
One such friend, good friend David Larae, suggested maybe you would reconsider. 00:03:08
Since Don played us such an integral part in his Center St. overpass. 00:03:13
That you name that overpass. 00:03:17
The Don Overson Center St. Overpass. 00:03:20
So I just ask you to consider that he was an integral part of that process, to my understanding. 00:03:23
It came in under budget. 00:03:29
Like million, $9 million in total cost, which is about half of what the deal. 00:03:32
T was going to do it for. 00:03:38
And it was well within the timeframes that they thought that they would be able to finish it. So I just ask for your consideration 00:03:40
with that. 00:03:43
Holloway Rd. 00:03:58
So I'm. 00:04:03
I wanted to ask a couple of questions. They're they're not totally related to the. 00:04:04
The agenda tonight, but they're sort of ancillary to it and I'm. 00:04:09
I wanted to find out. 00:04:12
First of all, if a vote is taken. 00:04:14
On the on the. 00:04:16
The item for the. 00:04:19
You know, for the bonding, the vineyard. 00:04:21
Tonight what there need to be additional vote taken to start that project. 00:04:24
Or would it be would just having that vote taken? 00:04:29
If the. 00:04:32
If our advisors find an appropriate bond that meets all the. 00:04:33
The criteria that we that you agree to. 00:04:37
Within the project just began at that point. 00:04:40
Or we're taking a mystery. We're taking another vote from count, from the entire council. 00:04:43
So that's our first question. 00:04:48
Second question is that. 00:04:49
If it were determined there. 00:04:51
A citizens group wanted to file a referendum. 00:04:54
We know we have a certain number of days to get that paperwork into the. 00:04:56
City clerks or the City Recorder, which just serves as our clerk. 00:05:00
And they're gone this next week. And so we want to know who. 00:05:04
Who would be available to receive that in the? 00:05:07
The appropriate time frame. 00:05:10
So those are two questions. 00:05:12
Thank you. 00:05:14
Wrote I do have a question. 00:05:22
About finances and. 00:05:26
We're talking about. I want to. 00:05:29
Sarah's. 00:05:31
I don't know what it was. 00:05:34
Informational meeting talking about the. 00:05:36
New City Hall. 00:05:41
Possibilities and. 00:05:43
And I learned a lot. 00:05:45
It was exciting to see what was going on and I think. 00:05:48
We all want to have a really viable, wonderful city. 00:05:52
The thing I don't get. 00:05:56
Is how? 00:05:59
It's not going to cost us. 00:06:00
We talk about. 00:06:03
It's coming from the sales tax. Well, then we're robbing the sales tax from something else, so. 00:06:04
It just it just I, it could be my upbringing. 00:06:10
In the 50s and the 60s. 00:06:15
My dad had the same answer every time I ask for something. 00:06:17
Dad, can I go to the movie? 00:06:22
Save your money. 00:06:24
That was it. 00:06:25
And it is a good way to do things. 00:06:26
And. 00:06:30
I think it's harmful to the citizens. 00:06:33
To take away. 00:06:37
The sales tax, if that's what's going on here. 00:06:42
And rob us of things now. 00:06:46
To pay for something. 00:06:49
That really is needed down the road. 00:06:51
Just because it's on sale, Just cause. 00:06:54
You know, it's a good deal. It's really hard for people who have lived our whole lives. 00:06:58
Paying into Social Security pain, You know, we've, we've paid and paid and paid. 00:07:04
And we don't want our. 00:07:10
Taxes to be raised. We don't. 00:07:14
I just would love to hear why this is so important. 00:07:18
Thank you. 00:07:24
Daria Evans, a Villa's resident. I would just like to thank you again for another opportunity to speak with you tonight. 00:07:37
I'd like to express my appreciation to Marty and the mayor. 00:07:44
For their willingness to help me with some sewer questions that I had and Nassim reached out to me and we were able to get that. 00:07:48
Situation explained. 00:07:55
And I am grateful for that. 00:07:57
I would like to refer to some. 00:08:00
Statements made in our March 26 City Council meeting. 00:08:03
Stating about the one power 23 minute. 00:08:07
08 Mark. 00:08:10
Professor Perry was talking about ranked choice voting. 00:08:13
And. 00:08:17
I do not believe that I am being. 00:08:20
Incentivize to vote dishonestly by voting for the candidate I want over another in. 00:08:23
Plurality voting? Excuse me. 00:08:30
And I do not. 00:08:33
Care for the idea of a mathematical algorithm determining? 00:08:34
The outcome of an election. I like one vote. 00:08:38
1 winner. 00:08:43
That's just my opinion. 00:08:44
And also going back to that last meeting. 00:08:46
I also I want to state that I believe that we need to make the lakefront community whole. 00:08:50
By finishing the improvements that the builder left because Vineyard City did not have a written contract. 00:08:56
With the builders to complete that work. 00:09:03
We went through that litigation. 00:09:06
And I think we need to take care of. 00:09:08
What? 00:09:12
Is missing or absent in the lakefront community. We need to make them whole. 00:09:14
And also regarding our sewer system repair. 00:09:20
I know it is being budgeted for. 00:09:24
But when and how substantial will the next? 00:09:26
Repairs B. 00:09:31
How much will it cost? 00:09:33
We need to have plenty of money in. 00:09:35
Don't know what the economy. 00:09:40
Corneliazavella is resident. 00:10:02
I just want to ask all of you up there to do me a favor, and this isn't a hard one. 00:10:04
I'm a geek, so I don't take notes while I'm here at the meeting. I listen to it the next day. 00:10:08
But I can't hear most of you. 00:10:14
No matter what I do with the volume on my computer. 00:10:16
So if you can make certain. 00:10:19
That you speak into your mics so that I can clearly understand. 00:10:21
Because that's when I take my notes. 00:10:25
And then the only thing I want to ask is, is the vote that you will take tonight? 00:10:27
Whichever way it goes. 00:10:32
Is that a legislative vote? 00:10:34
Can you answer that for me tonight? I will. 00:10:41
Answer questions or direct you to the right spot when we're all done with public comment. Thank you. 00:10:44
Yeah. 00:10:51
OK. Are there any other questions or public comment? 00:11:12
All right. I'm going to go ahead and close public comment. 00:11:17
Kim, thanks for the suggestion. 00:11:20
Umm, David, you will want to talk to Pam and Karen. You'll want to talk to Pam at some point in the future. 00:11:24
Maybe Pam you can connect with them. 00:11:32
And then let's see. 00:11:35
We will be discussing Claudia's item on the agenda. 00:11:37
And we will be discussing part of Daria's discussion on the agenda with. 00:11:41
Reserves. 00:11:48
And then let's see, we'll also be discussing part of your item on the agenda with the alternative voting methods. 00:11:50
So with that, we'll go ahead and move right onto the agenda. 00:11:57
Let me. 00:12:01
See what's up first. 00:12:03
All right, that puts us to 3.1, the Municipal Alternative Voting Methods pilot project, and Pam will present and then we'll go 00:12:06
ahead and we'll take a vote. 00:12:10
OK, good. Didn't sound like it was on. 00:12:30
I've never made that mistake before. 00:12:33
So anyway, thank you for for letting me present this tonight. I have a deadline. 00:12:36
That I need to meet and I appreciate this. 00:12:41
You allowing us to do this tonight? I know we talked at length. 00:12:45
There were presentations at length last week about this SO. 00:12:49
I can go into details. I can just let you know that we've done at the last three election cycles. 00:12:52
From the beginning, we we would like to do it one more time, but we understand. 00:12:57
You know, whatever you guys decide, we will, we will run that kind of an election so. 00:13:03
Anyway. 00:13:09
I just wanted to give you another. 00:13:11
Small update, if we did do RCV it would save us about $20,000 if we didn't hold the primary. 00:13:14
So and regardless, we're not going to know if we need a primary and. 00:13:20
If we do a traditional. 00:13:24
Election until. 00:13:27
After the declaration period, so. 00:13:29
Regardless, we won't know if we need that money or not. 00:13:32
And justice to let you know what it would save us if we did it that way. 00:13:36
So and then the other thing is is currently we have. 00:13:41
Almost 68. 00:13:44
100 registered voters were doing a push to try to get more. 00:13:46
And with the apartments coming online? 00:13:50
Later, uh. 00:13:53
This spring, summer, fall, how often are they opening buildings? 00:13:54
Anyway, so the. 00:13:59
If we can do that push, we're hoping to get more registered voters so. 00:14:00
Unless you have any questions for me about last week's discussions or that it. 00:14:04
That you thought of. 00:14:09
In the meantime. 00:14:10
That's all I've got. 00:14:14
OK. Are there any questions? 00:14:15
All right then I just need a motion. 00:14:19
Well, I guess. 00:14:23
I guess Pam you could answer this. 00:14:25
With ranked choice voting, one of my concerns has been I don't want to have like. 00:14:28
The whole conversation of doing a primary versus not doing a primary. 00:14:34
And your current plan with ranked choice voting would be just no primary. Just no primary. Yeah, we've, we've, you know, other 00:14:38
than when we did the. 00:14:42
Vacancy. We've never had enough. 00:14:47
To make. 00:14:50
Ballot really long so. 00:14:52
So yeah, at this point in time. 00:14:54
There'd be no reason to have a primary. 00:14:57
I'm happy to share my thoughts and opinions. 00:15:03
I thoroughly enjoyed our last council meeting. I know it was probably a little bit long. 00:15:07
But the conversation. 00:15:13
A ranked choice voting is something that. 00:15:15
I have been studying for a long time and I find it incredibly fascinating. 00:15:17
Feel like I still learned new things last week even with how much I've been. 00:15:21
Researching things. 00:15:27
I've watched a. 00:15:30
Quite a few videos online. 00:15:31
But umm. 00:15:33
Just like some of my concerns with ranked choice voting. 00:15:35
Are the scenario with specifically that was shared about. 00:15:38
The election in. 00:15:46
Wow, might have been 2019. 00:15:48
Where Christie took first and then she her votes were relegated to. 00:15:51
Everyone and they went into the second. 00:15:58
Ground. 00:16:01
It does. 00:16:03
Concern me that. 00:16:04
Tice's votes basically for everyone that voted for him didn't have a say on a second person. 00:16:07
That's one of my concerns, especially since we're going to have three seats open. 00:16:15
And I personally, if I were to pick. 00:16:21
The person in the third spot and they just kind of held tight the whole way. I would be really frustrated that I didn't get a say 00:16:24
on the 1st 2:00. 00:16:28
I guess I want to make it clear for the public that it's not that I'm against ranked choice voting. 00:16:34
I, I think it's, I think I said last week, I think it's fun to be able to. 00:16:40
I mean, not even fun. I think it's representative to be able to say these are the people I like and this is the order I like them 00:16:45
in. 00:16:48
I really like the ideas of having alternate. 00:16:51
Voting options, but. 00:16:54
I do see some some really concerning flaws with instant runoff counting. 00:16:57
I am interested in the future, I hope that they do that legislation does allow. 00:17:03
Pilot program so that we can learn about different options. Plurality does have its flaws, but as we learned last week, so does it 00:17:09
seem that. 00:17:13
I agree and So what it comes down to just with my perspective. I'm sorry if I'm long winded but. 00:17:19
Vineyard, I think it's pretty great that we. 00:17:28
Been willing to try a different form of voting. 00:17:31
And I think that. 00:17:34
I really appreciate the people that are pushing for different forms of voting. 00:17:38
But I kind of felt like a Guinea pig last week. I felt like. 00:17:41
We've tried it a few times. We've really tried to help in the cause. 00:17:47
And I'm OK. 00:17:51
If the Council decides to end it today and do traditional voting. 00:17:52
And I'm. 00:17:57
But if it doesn't go that direction, I also respect that ranked choice voting or specifically alternate voting. 00:17:58
Is an exciting endeavor. 00:18:05
But it's not necessarily my vote. OK. I just have a question on a comment you meant about. 00:18:07
Christie's votes being redistributed, her first place votes don't count anymore after that. Yeah. So it's the confusion. The 00:18:13
confusion is the counts of rounds. So the way that Wendy explained it. 00:18:20
She was talking about preference. 00:18:27
And the way that Marty just explained is that she thought that you could only vote for one seat, but she it's the multiple rounds 00:18:29
that she doesn't she's not accounting for in this. Yeah, but I aunt, no. 00:18:35
I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'm I'm saying that. 00:18:42
The way that that election turned out is if you voted for Christie first, that obviously helped her, or if you voted for her 00:18:45
second with other candidates, that obviously helped her get her majority. 00:18:51
Or her over 51 or over. 00:18:56
50.1%. 00:18:58
But then if you voted for. 00:18:59
He was never eliminated. 00:19:02
And so only your first vote for Tice counted Anyone else that you listed. If you had Tice as your very first pick anyone else that 00:19:04
you listed. 00:19:09
That vote never went into the statistics of the voting. 00:19:14
Cycle because he was never eliminated. 00:19:17
So in that scenario. 00:19:21
People like. 00:19:24
You know if they voted for Anthony Jenkins or Keith Cooter or take Unmanson. 00:19:25
They actually got multiple votes counted because those people were. 00:19:30
Is it relegated or what's the difference? Because their votes are distributed so, so like that. So we had five people say. 00:19:33
And that fifth one would be eliminated. Those second place votes would be redistributed among the other candidates depending on 00:19:40
who they voted for. Same with the four. 00:19:45
Than people that voted for Tice first because since Tice was never. 00:19:50
Eliminated. Umm. 00:19:55
You only if you had him first. You never had to say on the second candidate. 00:19:56
Like he was the same candidate but he never had to stay on the 1st. Everybody gets the same say on the second candidate. 00:20:01
Yeah, because so, so the way that she explained it last time was a bit confusing and it's two things that are being discussed. 00:20:08
What she was talking about was Wendy, not you. Sorry. 00:20:17
Wendy was expressing that there is a preference. 00:20:22
In the way that your vote is counted. 00:20:26
However. 00:20:29
What wasn't clear, which I think is what Pam is trying to explain, is that. 00:20:31
Your votes did count for the second seat. 00:20:35
It didn't go through the runoff and then Tice was eliminated and that was the end of the vote. It went through round one. 00:20:38
Tice was your first choice. Christie was your second choice, Anthony was your third choice. Round one it went through. Tice was 00:20:46
your first choice, but he got voted in. So that vote, he is now eliminated. Now second round. 00:20:52
It goes and the count starts over. So the the way that the preference is treated is that even though tice is eliminated. 00:20:58
Your actual second choice for second seat. 00:21:06
Is still your first choice. 00:21:09
In preference it's just counted strangely because. 00:21:11
Of how the count happens and one thing is, is that everybody is basically a limited eliminated except for the winter. 00:21:15
In the long run, so everybody's votes do fall off. 00:21:23
And get redistributed. 00:21:27
Until you have that winner. 00:21:28
And then everybody S comes back in, starts again. The 1st place votes for Christie obviously aren't counted, and they go to the 00:21:30
second vote. 00:21:34
And it goes through that same elimination process. I feel like I understand the process, and Mark Roberts confirmed that what I'm 00:21:38
saying is is true. 00:21:43
That what Wendy said is accurate. That if you voted. 00:21:48
This is my thought. Statistically, I really enjoy statistics. 00:21:52
But if? 00:21:55
If you voted for tice. 00:21:56
What if every single person that voted for Tice voted for? 00:21:58
Anthony Jenkins, second like. 00:22:03
We don't know because we never got to really see their votes coming. I see what you're saying. Yeah, Yes. 00:22:05
Could change the determination of the ballot. 00:22:11
If we were voting just in plurality. 00:22:14
Then if I if I voted Tice as my first pick. 00:22:17
Than in Anthony was my second then. 00:22:20
Those votes would have both counted. 00:22:23
But I see what you're saying. You know what I mean? Yeah. 00:22:26
And I but Mark Roberts actually confirmed the preference, not the rounds of. 00:22:28
County, yeah, which is a little bit different. 00:22:33
Yeah, it doesn't really. And if we have three seats then? 00:22:36
Tyson, 2nd place would have counted for that third seat. Yeah, yeah, you're right. So and that's just depending on how many seats 00:22:39
you have as to whether. 00:22:43
I'm saying for the public and. 00:22:47
Like I said, I'm not anti. 00:22:50
Different forms of voting. I'm open to the ideas. 00:22:53
It's just. 00:22:57
Over and over again, I've seen the flaws with ranked choice voting and it was really wonderful to hear the people that were even 00:22:58
pushing for ranked choice voting to acknowledge. 00:23:02
That there's no perfect system. Oh yeah, I agree, and I do appreciate that ranked choice voting does give a lower cost. 00:23:06
But I looked at Lehigh and I was so grateful for them. 00:23:14
That they had a primary. I don't know how they knew they needed a primary. That's the thing. Because you have to vote way before. 00:23:18
That to do the primary so that changes when your declaration period is and everything. So that was fascinating to me and I asked 00:23:24
she goes. 00:23:28
I don't know. 00:23:32
They didn't. They were saying it was part of their code or something that they have to have. They have to have a primary or 00:23:34
something. Yeah, but then they ended up having. 00:23:37
A lot of people run for council so that was crazy. 00:23:42
So yeah. 00:23:45
But I think 9 candidates for mayor and that. 00:23:46
To me that yeah. 00:23:49
Really hard to sort through all of those candidates and so I really. 00:23:50
Want us to be able to cut? 00:23:54
I hate. 00:23:58
Trim the fat. 00:23:59
And get to the Really. 00:24:01
We can really focus on their platform. 00:24:03
And my only other thing I just want to say. Just my opinion obviously. 00:24:06
Is that? 00:24:10
Running in the plurality. 00:24:12
You can win by 30 something percent. 00:24:14
And so that tells you that 60 something. 00:24:17
Didn't vote for you? 00:24:19
To win, right? And so? 00:24:21
With ranked choice, I know that you at least voted for me at some point in time in your ranking and that that kind of makes me 00:24:24
feel better because that means that. 00:24:28
Yeah, you didn't. 00:24:32
Not vote for me. 00:24:33
Because just like any other election, you don't have to vote for everybody. Just like any other election. 00:24:35
So if you don't want to vote for somebody, don't vote for him. 00:24:40
But so that's just my other thought on that and that's. 00:24:43
I appreciate it and thank you for discussing it. 00:24:47
With me, yeah. Thank you. 00:24:49
That there's different perspectives on this? Yep. 00:24:52
That's great. Thank you. 00:24:54
Any other questions or comments? 00:24:57
By the Council. 00:24:59
I'll just say why I'd be voting against it. 00:25:05
Umm in my experience, the primary is an opportunity to engage citizens very early on in the process and kind of wake up citizens 00:25:09
that are very sleepy. 00:25:14
And. 00:25:20
So I think it's really important to pay the 20 grand or whatever to just say, hey, this is happening. 00:25:22
Because they kind of need a prep and then #2. 00:25:28
Incumbents have a very entrenched advantage with name recognition and everything and the vast majority of challenges. 00:25:33
Challengers are running because they believe in a. 00:25:40
Different, uh. 00:25:44
Direction. 00:25:46
Generally. 00:25:47
And so. 00:25:48
What happens in a primary is it allows challengers to go and put their name out there. 00:25:50
And then after that it gives what, a 90 day period? 00:25:55
For all of those challengers to have time to say. 00:25:59
Do we want to group up together and use forces to? 00:26:03
Unseat the incumbent and that is really important because it helps balance out power. 00:26:07
On the advantage of an incumbency. 00:26:14
And it gives them that 90 day period to organize. Whereas with ranked choice voting, it's like. 00:26:16
It happened. 00:26:22
But it's like it's so quick and that it it's easy for an incumbent to say I'm just gonna not do any debates or anything and just 00:26:23
wait till the end. 00:26:27
And so and also, I just think. 00:26:31
It's just as a referee, you're changing the scoring of the game, whether it be statistically better or not. It's just like. 00:26:35
This is the game, whether it be good or bad. 00:26:41
That's the way it's played and so that's why it's. 00:26:43
I why I would vote that way. I just, I just have a comment and mostly to go out to the public and to anybody that chooses to run 00:26:47
regardless of what kind of an election we run. 00:26:52
That primaries get the least amount of voters. Everybody wants to wait and vote in the general election. The problem with not 00:26:56
voting in a primary. 00:27:01
Is that then the person you really want to get in might not get in because you chose not to vote? If you don't think one vote 00:27:06
matters, look at our 2015 election where we had. 00:27:12
A It was a close enough vote that we had to do a recount. 00:27:18
Everybody gained. 00:27:24
Votes, so you can't tell me that. 00:27:26
The counting systems are perfect either. 00:27:28
But everybody gained gained votes when we ended up in a tie and we had to roll the dice. 00:27:31
To determine. 00:27:36
Who took the seat? 00:27:37
That I just want that out there to the public. Please vote in the primary if we have one. 00:27:40
It sounds like. 00:27:46
We might be leaning that way. I will see this. 00:27:47
I was really grateful as well for the people that came. I found it interesting that in multiple surveys, the people of Vineyard 00:27:50
wanted rank choice voting. 00:27:54
I liked that the state law changed allowed you to make a primary. 00:27:59
It allows for you to still have a primary, well, still keeping your options open. I think it's interesting when we're talking 00:28:03
about incumbents and challengers because ranked choice voting. 00:28:08
Is an opportunity for those people to have. 00:28:14
To kind of move outside of the name recognition because you get to. 00:28:19
Rank your people instead of just voting for. 00:28:22
One person or two people? 00:28:26
Whatever the seats are that are open. 00:28:28
And I thought it was interesting too, that. 00:28:30
On every mark that they spoke against ranked choice voting. 00:28:33
They found the same types of errors in plurality. 00:28:38
Only there was an advantage of less errors in rank choice voting. 00:28:42
Now the pilots ending this year. 00:28:47
We also heard another method that might come out and I don't know if. 00:28:49
Leaving it means that. 00:28:53
The state's going to look at it and say, well, why didn't you continue on with it? But if the reason is that we're just kind of 00:28:55
moving outside of it and saying the state's closing down on it so we can move outside of it, I'm happy to support. 00:29:01
The Council in the direction that you've. 00:29:07
That you want to go, but if it's for the people. 00:29:09
Who want their voices to be heard the most? 00:29:12
And to offer opportunities for. 00:29:15
Primaries and challengers. 00:29:20
Fair scoring, It seems like everything that we were taught last week speaks to the opposite side of that. Yeah. And oh, sorry, one 00:29:23
other thing, just real quick on the comment that you made is that. 00:29:28
For something that you also said, Jake, is that when you're going out and you're canvassing in a. 00:29:35
And a regular one. You don't want anybody to vote for anybody else unless you have joined with somebody. 00:29:41
Which we know you guys did that last for the last election cycle. 00:29:47
But the idea of ranked choice voting is is you go out and you push your name, you push your platform, you do all that and say hey, 00:29:51
if I'm not your first choice, please at least make me. Your second or third choice for this year would be 3 choices so. 00:29:57
That's just something I want to throw out there too for. 00:30:04
For canvassing. 00:30:07
I mean, not. Yeah, I agree. I think it does, Foster. 00:30:10
A better. 00:30:15
Better rhetoric like. 00:30:16
Yeah, umm. 00:30:18
Better, umm. 00:30:19
Just kinder elections. 00:30:20
Mayor I I appreciate your perspective, but I really. 00:30:23
I from my experience. 00:30:27
I really believe that. 00:30:30
Our community is divided on this pretty like, I feel like there are a lot of people that love it, a lot of people that don't. 00:30:32
And a lot of people that. 00:30:40
May or may not careless. 00:30:42
I, I really just wanted to say that I don't know if I well and I like it. I, I was just stating what we saw in the surveys with 00:30:47
the data that came to us. 00:30:50
I just found it interesting that those were the results from the surveys that came in. But like I said, I'm I'm totally willing to 00:30:54
support you guys if what you're feeling out there is that. 00:30:59
The data that's coming back is not representative of the people. 00:31:04
I understand that. 00:31:08
Depending on which survey we're talking about, right, because one of the surveys that was shared. 00:31:11
Was very limited. We had maybe like 20 people we were counting and so that wasn't a good Yeah, that was not and that was the 00:31:16
statewide weighted survey that had a few. And it's probably the same thing that when we were doing all of our training and 00:31:21
everything. 00:31:26
We held it at the Vineyard Days and we held it here and. 00:31:31
And people were going, well, we know how to do this. 00:31:34
We get it. So then we did an exit poll for people when we had a vote center here. 00:31:37
Everybody that came out from that said, Oh yeah, it was easy when we understand it. 00:31:42
So, umm. 00:31:47
So Trent, you know, so that kind of stuff for for that course that was in 2019 and that's an additional survey. That's an 00:31:48
additional thing that we did just to see. 00:31:53
That's part of my issue though. Ranked choice voting is great. 00:32:00
Instant Runoff counting has its flaws, is how I see it. 00:32:03
I think I think everything has. 00:32:06
Laws and counting so. 00:32:08
Or in your outcome. 00:32:10
On things, but like I said, how? Whatever you guys decide. 00:32:11
We will run that election. 00:32:15
Best of our abilities. 00:32:17
Yeah, I have. 00:32:20
A comment I'd like to make for my part. 00:32:21
Vote against it as well. 00:32:25
But it's not because I think ranked choice voting is bad. I actually prefer it. 00:32:26
But I do think that the community is very divided on it. 00:32:32
And I also see the state having acted. 00:32:35
And I also see as it was a pilot to begin with, which to me implies experiment. 00:32:39
And the point of an experiment is to gather data and learn. 00:32:46
And I wonder. 00:32:49
What is the value of 1? 00:32:51
More run at it before the experiment ends. 00:32:54
Just close it out. Years of data. 00:32:56
To learn from. 00:32:59
In what I heard tonight is. 00:33:02
The value would be $20,000. 00:33:03
That's what I heard. 00:33:05
Yeah, just to close it out. 00:33:06
So we ran it off the whole time but. 00:33:08
You know what? Like I said. 00:33:10
It's up to you guys. 00:33:12
All right. I feel like we have a motion. 00:33:14
Feel like we have a group? 00:33:17
You all, you all covered it Well, I actually, yeah. 00:33:22
I really appreciate that we delayed putting it on the agenda so we could have. 00:33:25
That work session, it was really valuable. 00:33:30
And when they talked about plurality? 00:33:32
Umm, I remember, I remember growing up and having spoiler votes for the presidency. I. 00:33:36
You know, I remember that. 00:33:40
And so I hadn't really considered it before. 00:33:42
And so to have the pros and cons of all of the different. 00:33:46
Voting systems for me was really valuable. 00:33:49
And I liked the idea of this spreadsheet where they brought in the. 00:33:53
The what was it? Ranked pairs? 00:33:57
Seem to have less. 00:34:00
Of a downside, you know. 00:34:02
So I'm not opposed to. 00:34:03
To looking at other forms in the future, but again, our community is small. 00:34:05
And there's a lot of voices that want it to be done and so. 00:34:10
And I appreciate you letting me wait because I wanted to see what the Legislature was going to do, because I'd heard rumblings 00:34:14
that they were. 00:34:17
That somebody was going to submit a bill to just end it now. 00:34:20
And so. 00:34:24
There was no reason. There would have been no reason to even. 00:34:25
Discuss it. 00:34:28
So thank you for allowing me to wait. 00:34:29
On that. 00:34:31
Awesome. All right. I just need a motion. 00:34:34
You don't need. 00:34:42
Quote the resolution number if you're going to deny it. 00:34:43
Do the motion to deny. 00:34:46
You just move to deny. 00:34:48
The request. 00:34:50
I'd move to deny that request. 00:34:52
All right. We have a first by Brett. Can I get a second? 00:34:54
Second Second by Sarah. Any discussion? 00:34:58
All right, all in favor, we do a roll call. Just Oh yeah, roll call. 00:35:02
Jake. 00:35:05
Hi, Marty. Hi, Sarah. Hi. All right, Thank you, guys. We'll get going. 00:35:07
All right, we will move on to our next agenda item that is the bond parameter bond parameters resolution. 00:35:13
2025-15 and David Robertson. 00:35:22
With Lewis, Robertson and Birmingham will present. 00:35:25
Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity to be here. 00:35:33
I think, Eric, did we get that presentation? 00:35:37
Hold up by chance? 00:35:39
OK, as he's pulling that up. 00:35:42
First of all, I just wanted to introduce ourselves. We are LRB public finance advisors. 00:35:44
I work with Laura Lewis and as the financial advisors to the city. 00:35:49
And fiduciaries were just wanted to be clear, we're not here driving the bus. We're here to advise the city and to give you 00:35:53
independent advice along the way. So. 00:35:58
The other thing we wanted to mention is. 00:36:03
In working with the staff and others, we've received some information along the way. 00:36:06
And it's been very helpful. We love. 00:36:11
Receiving information from the public, from the, from the governing body and from staff to make sure on whatever endeavor we're 00:36:13
moving forward that we're meeting the needs of the city and the residents. So we really do honestly welcome the feedback, we 00:36:19
welcome the input and really want to integrate that all into this whole process. So. 00:36:24
I think Eric's pulling that up. I can speak from it my laptop as well. 00:36:31
Can I share my screen? I can do it from here. 00:36:48
OK, should we count 1? 00:36:52
2/3. 00:36:56
Perfect. Thank you. 00:37:00
OK, uh. 00:37:01
Next slide, please. 00:37:02
OK, so today we've gathered a lot of thoughts and I've heard various comments. And so we wanted to kind of just get out of the 00:37:06
gates and just make sure. 00:37:10
We had all the information in front of us, so I'm going to try and hit on all of these points. 00:37:14
And then incorporating the comments I heard from the. 00:37:19
From the public today and see if I can't hit on all of these points. So we'll talk about introductions, the goals, water, sales, 00:37:23
tax revenue, bonds. 00:37:27
Other tenants, other partners. 00:37:31
Potential financing structure, the next steps, the primary resolution and then the next steps after this. So next step please. 00:37:34
OK, As we get into this, some of the major participants that we'll be engaging with is the City Council, city staff. Meg is one of 00:37:40
the potential partners with the city on helping fund this project. 00:37:46
And then also as we understand that this project is going to have various components. 00:37:53
There could be input from. 00:37:57
Additional tenets how that could incorporate into this project. 00:38:00
Also, there's potential ways of renting or leasing the potential parts of this. 00:38:04
New facilities out and so there's ways of kind of incorporating all those items. 00:38:09
Some of the major professionals that we were working with. 00:38:13
I failed to list Jamie here as the city's attorney, but obviously he'll be a big portion of this. 00:38:16
But Laura and I'll be working as the financial advisor fiduciary. 00:38:22
To the city. 00:38:26
Randy Larson and Brad Patterson, and I'm grateful for Brad being here as well. They're acting as bond and disclosure council to 00:38:30
make sure that the bonds qualify. 00:38:34
For tax exempt bonds, which is the lowest cost of borrowing, but also making sure that the bonds are issued just with within the 00:38:40
realms of all the legal requirements. 00:38:44
And there's the Bond underwriter. 00:38:50
The SO LRB, we are the financial advisor to this city. 00:38:52
But then John Crandall and Matt Dugdale from Stifel, they actually interact with the investors and they actually sell the bonds. 00:38:58
So there's various. 00:39:01
Kind of roles here and even though like Stifel they represent. 00:39:06
They represent both the city on selling the bonds where you want to have the lowest interest rates. 00:39:10
And looser covenants. Investors want high interest rates and strict covenants. They kind of straddle that and talk about in both 00:39:15
of those worlds. So they have a natural inherent conflict of interest. That's not a bad thing. It's just simply the way the market 00:39:20
is. 00:39:24
And so we, as your fiduciaries, we help represent you on that side. 00:39:29
Next slide, please. 00:39:32
OK, I know there's various goals and there's goals. We welcome any feedback to make sure that these goals are at. 00:39:34
Are obtained and set properly. 00:39:41
Just one of the comments was from the. 00:39:44
From this Madam about. 00:39:48
The needs of the city, right? Because you have the needs of the city today, we also have the needs of the city in the future. And 00:39:51
how do you pay for that? 00:39:54
We understand. 00:39:57
I'm not down grading anyone's comments. It's interesting because you have the tug and pull. Because the cheapest way for paying 00:39:59
for any project is to pay cash for that. 00:40:03
Well, to save up enough time to actually pay for something, you could wait a long time. So you think of your house, right? You 00:40:07
need a house. You want the lowest cost. 00:40:10
There's no feasible way of paying cash for that project, so the other way is incurring debt. 00:40:14
Sometimes debt can be a good thing as you really on your personal finances. 00:40:19
You don't want any debt because you're only one paying for that, right? 00:40:23
Well, on. 00:40:25
On publicly owned assets. 00:40:27
Well, the person who is paying for it today, someone who's using it 10 years from now, 20 years from now, what's the equitable way 00:40:30
of having everyone pay for that? So we just want to. So debt can be or bonds can be a good, good term. So is that something that 00:40:34
the city wants to do? 00:40:39
If we go down that route. 00:40:44
Issuing bonds or incurring debt. 00:40:46
We want to make sure there's there's different components. Not only do you want the lowest interest cost. 00:40:49
But you want flexible terms. You want to have. 00:40:53
What's good for the city on their cash flow? What's the right of securing that debt, unlike your personal finances where you are 00:40:56
the one securing it? 00:41:01
There's different ways of securing bonds, so we'll pay attention to that. 00:41:05
We do want to pay attention to and just be clear, these bonds, how they're sold, they will be fixed rate bonds. There's not going 00:41:09
to be any variable rate. There's not going to be any reset. They'll be fixed for the life of their bonds. 00:41:14
There may be a period of time that we ramp up the debt service or bonds, how they're sold. They do have various interest rates 00:41:20
because different people buy different bonds along the way. 00:41:25
But the interest rate will be fixed at closing. They will not adjust. They will not change. 00:41:29
If the city wants to refinance their bonds. 00:41:34
Great, but at closing they will be fixed for the life of the bonds. 00:41:36
So I want to understand that correctly. Sure. 00:41:40
I think. 00:41:43
Each year the. 00:41:44
It will be a fixed rate correct when you close. 00:41:46
However, when you go to the market. 00:41:49
One year might be. 00:41:51
4.7. 00:41:53
Year 3 and 4 might be 4.8. 00:41:54
Where this could be 5 point whatever and that's usually the market is based off of. 00:41:57
The lower payment that they're holding right like. 00:42:04
Is it so like we're wanting a smaller payment? 00:42:07
Up front. 00:42:11
Don't have a lot of cash. 00:42:12
Can I reset it a differently maybe? 00:42:14
So when you sell, when you go like on your home mortgage, assuming everyone's had a mortgage in their life, right, you go to the 00:42:17
bank and saying, hey, I'm getting a 30 year mortgage. Well, the average life of that mortgage is going to be like 22 or 23 years 00:42:22
on average. So then the banks going to say, okay, they're going to peg that to whatever index they say and your average interest 00:42:27
rate for your life of your mortgage. 00:42:32
In today's market is what 6 1/4 so. 00:42:38
Every principal payment that you have is targeted at six and a quarter paid. 00:42:40
That makes sense, right? When you sell bonds each year, you're going to have principal that's going to amortize. So there's going 00:42:45
to be a set payment that every year is going to be amortized. 00:42:49
Depending on what kind of investor you are. Like if you're a bank, if you're a, trust, if you're a. 00:42:54
Money management. If you're an insurance, you buy bonds at different parts of that amortization schedule. 00:42:59
So yes, each principal payment will be assigned a coupon and a yield. 00:43:05
That is fixed at closing and it's locked in. 00:43:10
And then what you do is you have all of those payments, like you said, the earlier ones have a lower interest rate, the later ones 00:43:13
have a higher interest rate. You average that all together to get what's called your tick or your true interest costs and that's 00:43:18
kind of what we refer to as your overall interest rate. 00:43:22
So you don't use the word variable, you just say a different rate for every year. 00:43:28
I guess I don't know. 00:43:32
It's not. But the same fixed rate, Yeah, sure. 00:43:34
It's I have in. 00:43:40
Interrupt me if I'm getting this wrong because I'm not an expert here. 00:43:43
I have some number of. 00:43:47
Shares in this bond. 00:43:50
Get bought and sold. 00:43:52
Mm-hmm. If 100% of them bought get bought on day one and they hold them for until maturity. 00:43:53
The rate never changes. 00:43:59
Is that true? 00:44:00
Yeah, OK. Yeah. So you see where I'm trying to get. 00:44:03
And they will have an interest rate assigned to them. 00:44:10
So to Mr. Holdaway's comment. 00:44:13
Yes, each bondholder may have a different interest rate. 00:44:16
But we know that, but they're fixed at closing. You will know what it is and they're locked and then they cannot be changed, 00:44:19
right? 00:44:23
Yeah. They're a maximum interest rate that it could go to like. 00:44:27
It wouldn't go any lower than 3%. It wouldn't go any higher than 6%. It's kind of something I've heard. 00:44:32
So yes, in the parameters resolution. 00:44:37
We'll and we'll get to that. We're going to set certain parameters. 00:44:40
Because of the timing of how kind of the bond sales work. 00:44:44
That we will delegate the. 00:44:47
The authority to a couple of people and they'll say OK, as long as we can price bonds within this within. 00:44:50
At the maximum interest rate, as long as you can price the bonds lower than that. 00:44:55
Then we can go ahead with the transaction. 00:44:59
If those interest rates exceed that amount, then we would not proceed with the transaction and come back to the council saying 00:45:01
hey. 00:45:04
The market skewompus or whatever reason we need to readdress that maximum interest rate. 00:45:07
And I think in the documents it's 6%, right? Correct. 00:45:12
Today, in today's market, we estimate that the current. 00:45:16
And we'll get into what will influence this, but in the mid 4% range and you say, well, why do we set a higher interest rate? 00:45:20
Part of it is there's. 00:45:28
Going back to the pricing, there's couponing and there's different. 00:45:30
Places in the market. 00:45:33
If we get into this process. 00:45:35
And all of the things in the market, kind of the market, the rates go up instead of having to come back and get the approval. 00:45:36
We just set that maximum interest rate. 00:45:44
There's. 00:45:46
There's purposes for doing that. 00:45:48
OK. 00:45:52
When we're going through the financing and doing the structuring and all of that, we seek to have flexibility around the 00:45:55
partnering because the city could be partnering with Meg, leasing other property, renting their property. I'll be working with 00:46:01
Brad and his partner Randy to make sure that we comply with all the the. 00:46:06
Requisite tax requirements. 00:46:12
And just making sure we have the flexibility on how the property can be used not only today but going into the future. 00:46:17
Next slide, please. 00:46:22
One of the questions was saying well. 00:46:24
Vineyards the only one that has used sales tax to finance their projects. I just wanted to put this to bed. 00:46:26
You're not the only one. This is a very active, very common use of projects to finance projects. 00:46:32
Like Mill Creek, they just use sales tax revenue bonds to finance. A very similar project for Mill Creek is just, you know, it's 00:46:40
in Salt Lake County. 00:46:45
Very similar type of project, kind of city center. 00:46:50
Let's use dynamic ways of using these properties, but this is just a list of a handful of projects going back to October 2020. 00:46:53
So just we wanted to let you know that lots of people, lots of communities use sales tax revenue bonds to finance their projects. 00:47:02
And there's a variety of projects, but a multiple. 00:47:10
I'm blanking right now. I don't know if Brad knows offhand, but there's I know Mill Creek used sales tax revenue bonds to finance 00:47:12
their city center. 00:47:16
City in Utah County because I couldn't find one in Utah County. 00:47:20
Orem comes to oh sorry, is that if you sales tax or for the city center. 00:47:25
Further City Hall. 00:47:29
Right, but that's not for their city center. 00:47:32
I can't remember in Utah County. 00:47:35
Do you remember Brad offhand? 00:47:38
Another borough to use those for purposes of their library and their you might need to come to Oh sorry, he's yeah. 00:47:40
Yeah, five years ago they did fill their library. I think Spanish Fork might have as well. 00:47:48
Yeah, I see a Spanish work, one for 58,000 or 58 million. 00:47:53
Keep going thus, please. Yeah. 00:47:58
Madam Mayor. 00:48:00
Members of Council, Brad Patterson. I'm with Gilmore, Bill. 00:48:01
We were bonded disclosure council to the city. 00:48:04
In terms of the types of principal projects that have been financed, the the sales tax revenues are used for a variety of 00:48:07
different types of projects. 00:48:10
It's not uncommon to see a City Hall financed this way, city offices to be financed this way. 00:48:15
And so. 00:48:21
We see them used for a variety of different purposes and I think that the Orem financing, we did that for purposes of the 00:48:23
expansion kind of the renovation of their City Hall and their library, their whole city kind of. 00:48:28
Complex over there. 00:48:34
My memory serves me right. 00:48:35
Sure. 00:48:37
Good. I apologize, I'm a soft talker. 00:48:40
And my wife tells me that all the time, and I just use it for yeah. 00:48:43
She always is. 00:48:48
So. 00:48:50
OK. Next slide please. OK. Sales tax revenue, bonds when we I've hit on a couple of these points. 00:48:53
But yeah, like I said that. 00:49:00
The rates will be fixed for the life of the bonds. 00:49:01
When we look at the amortization. 00:49:03
A couple different points. We look at the useful life of the facilities because we don't want to finance and have bond payments 00:49:06
passed. 00:49:09
When you're having to replace the facilities, the. 00:49:13
We look at the cash flow from the city to say hey. 00:49:15
What period of time do you want to repay these bonds? 00:49:17
Right now we've been targeting kind of that 25 to 30 year period. We've seen it as short as 20 years and as long as 35 years, but 00:49:20
kind of that 25 to 30 seems to be. 00:49:24
Kind of that sweet spot. 00:49:29
The reason? 00:49:31
We have the project amount. 00:49:32
Think that there's some of the initial budgets. 00:49:34
For the city have come in closer to 30. 00:49:37
The reason we have 35 million in there is before a couple of reasons. 00:49:40
The city has some equity or some funds that they could apply towards this project for not only the city but also the RDA to go 00:49:46
towards some of the architectural and some of those. 00:49:50
We're working with Meg on figuring out what their budget is. They've given us a range of how much money or how much equity they 00:49:55
could contribute to this project at closing. So we're still working through all of that and we're still working through this kind 00:50:00
of what the uses of the property could be. 00:50:05
You ask why did we put $35 million in the in the project? 00:50:10
While we fully estimate that the actual bonds will be kind of in the 20. 00:50:15
$25 million range until we hear back from MAG on what their level of participation is. 00:50:19
And working with the city on how much the city wants to contribute. 00:50:25
We did 35 because we anticipate that the project is going to be in that 30 to 32 range kind of in there. 00:50:28
But then the city has to fund the debt service reserve fund. 00:50:36
Any kind of capitalized interest, the transactional cost, we estimated that could be a little bit larger. So that's why we given 00:50:39
some flexibility on that front. 00:50:44
So any kind of equity that come in from MAG? 00:50:48
Or from the city would be would be applied immediately to reduce the amount of bonds that we have to issue. 00:50:51
One of the questions was saying, well, when can we refinance or refund these bonds? 00:50:57
Unlike your your mortgage when you can kind of repay or just refinance your mortgage whenever you want. 00:51:02
Bonds have what is called call protection, meaning the investors want to know that for a period of time that they're going to 00:51:07
return, have a return on their investment. We've seen that as short as one or two years for specialty type of financing. 00:51:14
For a public offering, that's typically somewhere between 7 and 10 years. 00:51:20
And what that means is, is the city could refinance those bonds ahead of that period of time. We're going to have to make those 00:51:24
investors whole through that call period. So you typically you don't. 00:51:29
And if you refund the bonds before the call date, it's on a taxable basis. 00:51:34
And reason I stay taxable or tax exempt? 00:51:39
Taxable refers to the interest rate if the investor has to pay income tax on the interest earnings they come in. 00:51:42
They charge a higher interest rate because they. 00:51:49
It costs them more because they're paying. 00:51:52
Income tax. 00:51:54
Well, for investors that don't pay income tax. 00:51:55
On those bonds, because those bonds qualify for tax exempt purposes, they can offer to buy those bonds at a lower interest rate. 00:51:58
So that's why we like to sell bonds for tax exempt purposes. 00:52:03
And that's usually for anything that's for a public good. 00:52:08
And so the bonds can be refunded at that call date on a tax exempt basis, usually starting in somewhere between year 7:00 and 00:52:11
10:00. And we'll determine that once we price the bonds. 00:52:16
The when we go to structure the bonds. 00:52:21
For the first year or two, depending on the construction period, we're going to do what's called capitalized interest, meaning 00:52:25
you're going to borrow in the bonds, you're going to borrow enough money to make the interest earnings, sorry, to make the 00:52:30
interest payment. 00:52:35
For that construction period. 00:52:40
And so it's kind of so that way the city, while it doesn't have use of the facilities, they're not paying on that debt. And so 00:52:42
while interest will begin to accrue as soon as you close on the bonds. 00:52:47
The city will not make payments through that capitalized interest period. So that's usually. 00:52:54
Somewhere between one and two years. And so we'll kind of work through that. 00:53:00
Usually then the year after that capitalized interest you have an interest only period. 00:53:03
And so you'll pay interest and then starting in the second year after that then when you start to amortize your principal. 00:53:09
We haven't determined what that would look like yet for a couple of reasons. A we're still working through. We're in the early 00:53:16
stages of this process. 00:53:19
Again, we're working with MAG to figure out their level of participation and so we'll need to figure out. Then there's the third 00:53:24
component is. 00:53:27
If there is some private use of these facilities, there may be some bonds are issued on a taxable basis. We'll need to kind of 00:53:31
factor that all in. 00:53:35
Early estimates based upon some of the early numbers is the interest only component could be 900,000. 00:53:40
The full payment, what we'd like to do is then what most likely is ramp up the debt service. So you'll start off 900,000. 00:53:47
And then as the use of facilities and different in uh. 00:53:53
Factors influence, we kind of ramped that debt service up until the full debt service payment would be about 2 million. 00:53:59
Again, some of that would be would be split between the city and Mag on a roughly 2 thirds 1/3 basis. 00:54:06
And we'll just work through all of those kind of cash flow needs that will also be influenced by the the city's ability to to be 00:54:13
to repay this debt. 00:54:16
We've had some preliminary discussions with the city on what their debt capacity is. 00:54:21
I just want to have all of those components as we structure the debt, but that has not been determined, that has not been 00:54:24
finalized that we will do that here in the months to come. 00:54:29
Next slide, please. 00:54:33
I just wanted to add context because we said something a little bit incorrect. 00:54:34
On the Orem one and to give context. 00:54:39
Orem's total budget. 00:54:42
Is 152,000,000 ours is 12 just a? 00:54:45
To make sure we're building the same $30 million building. 00:54:48
We're 12 million there, 152. 00:54:52
Also on their sales tax bond that was voted on in 2018 by voters, it wasn't. 00:54:54
Done by the Council like this. 00:55:00
Where we would be approving it. 00:55:03
It was in conjunction with their. 00:55:05
Rec Center and their theater that was connected to the library, not their City Hall, but. 00:55:08
I get what you're saying is. 00:55:13
People have built structures, but I think it's unique that. 00:55:15
The citizens wouldn't be voting on it. 00:55:19
So the citizens on in our world, umm. 00:55:23
The only bonds that need a citizen voter for general obligation bonds. So general obligation bonds pledge the full faith and 00:55:27
credit of the entity, which are repaid from property taxes. All revenue bonds in Utah do not need. Well I know they don't need, 00:55:32
but I'm just saying in Orem they did. 00:55:37
They did go out to vote and they they wanted to ask voters. 00:55:42
Yeah, just like we could, we could say, hey, let's go out and vote, they said. 00:55:45
But they did use sales tax. I got that. 00:55:49
But they were, they were building a huge new rec center that was a massive expense that was going to add. 00:55:51
They were going to have to pay for that. 00:55:56
That wasn't just a sales tax bond. 00:55:58
I don't think that was just a sales tax. Pawn the rec center. 00:56:00
I think that was a general obligation bond, so we need to look into that. 00:56:03
Yeah, I've I've got the records. 00:56:07
Yeah, umm. 00:56:10
I apologize. I have the record right here because we worked on that particular. 00:56:11
Transaction and the 2019 deal was a general obligation bond. 00:56:14
So that's why I didn't think it was a sales taxes. 00:56:18
They just messaged me and said. 00:56:21
That it was voted on by the public, so I was like, OK. 00:56:23
Yeah, you'll have to excuse me. I've gone through some deal melt here in the last couple years. So I wanted to correct it because 00:56:26
I was like. 00:56:28
Yeah. 00:56:31
But I think it is important to see the comparison in. 00:56:34
A $30 million building by 1 entity and a $30 million.32. 00:56:37
And there's a. 00:56:42
Their entire budget is 152 million. 00:56:43
Versus our 12 million? 00:56:46
And I. 00:56:49
I'm not familiar with. 00:56:51
That, yeah. Is that comparing? 00:56:52
The total budget is that comparing just sales tax. You want to make sure we're comparing apples to apples and all of that total 00:56:55
ORAM budget. 00:56:58
2425 is 152 million. 00:57:03
I don't know if it's sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. 00:57:06
I think that we often forget too, that Orem did build a City Hall and library like in the 70s. 00:57:11
That also costs them a lot of money for the time. 00:57:18
So I don't think it's unusual for a city. 00:57:21
Growing to build. 00:57:24
A City Hall, be it whatever price it is. 00:57:26
And the fact that we're partnering, I think we need to keep in mind. 00:57:29
That our number is closer to the low to mid 20s. 00:57:32
Just for clarification's sake. 00:57:35
Just so that we're. 00:57:37
My goal is that we're all talking about the same thing. I want us all understanding the numbers, whether or not we agree on it. 00:57:39
What the agree on the idea? 00:57:45
Let's make sure we're all saying the same numbers. 00:57:47
And that's a very, I think if we could all build under 2018 numbers, we'd all like to have those construction numbers back again, 00:57:50
right? 00:57:53
And I think the hard thing that you mentioned, I like what you how you phrased that is. 00:57:56
You have to look at it like we're using it today, tomorrow. 00:58:02
We could wait for 20 years to build to save up enough money to pay for this in cash. 00:58:06
But who knows what the cost is going to be in the future? So those are very good observations. 00:58:11
OK. When we go into bonds. 00:58:15
The unique things about cities. 00:58:17
You have a variety of different funding sources you have. 00:58:20
I'm not gonna list them all, but the ones that we're going to focus on, you mentioned property tax. 00:58:23
That goes in general fund, sales tax, general fund, franchise tax, general fund amongst everything else. 00:58:27
When we go through the bond analysis. 00:58:33
On sales tax revenue bonds. 00:58:37
And the thought process here that's been? 00:58:39
That she'd been used. 00:58:42
You actually can can combine your sales tax revenues and your franchise fee revenues and use those as collateral for your bonds. 00:58:43
You said, well, why would you do that? 00:58:47
The bondholders do not have the right to come and just. 00:58:52
Say hey, Citi. 00:58:56
You need to use your general your general fund to repay me. 00:58:58
On these bonds. 00:59:01
They can only tap those sales tax and franchise franchise fee revenues for that repayment of those bonds. 00:59:02
So you can see here between those two different sources. 00:59:08
The total revenues and fiscal year 2024 was little over $4 million. 00:59:11
The reason that's relevant is when you go and do your comparison of what your debt service payment is. 00:59:17
Bondholders want to see what's called debt service coverage, meaning for every dollar of debt that you have, what are your net 00:59:23
revenues available to make that debt service payment? 00:59:27
And for sales tax and these types of? 00:59:31
Revenues because they are fluid. 00:59:33
And the city cannot directly control them. As we all know, the cities the see the sales tax the city receives. That rate is pretty 00:59:36
much set the the the major influencers of those are. 00:59:41
Continued development or kind of point of contact in the city or who's buying goods within the city and the population, those are 00:59:47
the two major factors. So as the city continues to grow and develop, you're going to that would influence for the sales tax 00:59:52
revenues to go up. 00:59:57
So as we structure this. 01:00:02
LRB did a very just preliminary look. 01:00:04
We looked at saying, OK, what is your current sales track revenues today franchise? 01:00:07
Let's do some very basic assumptions saying hey. 01:00:12
Historically, you've seen. 01:00:15
So a percentage increase, let's be conservative there for the next couple of years and then be Uber conservative in the future 01:00:17
saying that's 4% for a handful of years, 1% handful of years. How's that going to look to an investor? So that's why we started 01:00:22
off on that side as being conservative. We did not do. 01:00:28
Market study of saying what businesses are coming in trying to predict. 01:00:35
What businesses are coming in? We did not make any assumptions of saying this, that or the other. We simply looked at. 01:00:39
Baseline 2024, we increased this at 4 and 1% or whatever those numbers were. Does that show well for the investor? So we did not 01:00:45
do a thorough market study, just don't want, don't want that. To be clear, we're assuming what grocery store or what businesses 01:00:50
were coming in. 01:00:55
Or predicting. 01:01:00
Population growth is simply based off of that baseline of 2024 to say hey. 01:01:03
Can the city do this? 01:01:07
We still reserve the right, we are still working closely with staff to understand. 01:01:09
OK, in your 2024 audit, you had a large transfer out of your general fund into your. 01:01:13
Capital projects fund. 01:01:19
That potentially could help make these payments. I'm not saying the city has all that money. We understand you have capital needs 01:01:20
and there's going to be future capital needs and growth of the city. 01:01:25
All we're all we're doing is a preliminary analysis out of the gates. 01:01:30
Is it plausible that the city could afford this? And the preliminary analysis is yes. 01:01:33
We could do that. We still reserve their work, right? To work with this staff and receive your feedback to say, hey, what's going 01:01:38
to influence that number? Can the city really afford this? 01:01:42
We're still early in that process, but want you to know we're aware of it. There's going to be influencing factors and we'll pay 01:01:47
attention to all of that. 01:01:50
Like I said, I don't want to rehash it but like. 01:01:53
Mag whatever they say that's going to influence this whole discussion because they thought. 01:01:55
Very beginning where we may want to prepay or. 01:01:59
Pay our debt off earlier, well we know maybe want to do a 20 year, there's going to be all of those items in there so. 01:02:02
Ought to be said. 01:02:08
Sales tax is a nice fluid number. We can use that and there's a variety of factors that's going to influence that number over the 01:02:10
years would. 01:02:14
Would a market analysis be part of the? 01:02:19
The more detailed. 01:02:22
Analysis. When we go through this, you don't have to do 1. 01:02:23
Because you do have so much coverage right now. 01:02:27
And there's, I can't quote all the projects right now, but I know there's a lot of projects on the docket right now, I think. 01:02:29
I'm going to butcher names, but I know there's a lot of projects coming in, so I don't think we have to do that because investors 01:02:36
are very comfortable with that. If you wanted to do that one just for your own sake and letting your citizens know that was good, 01:02:40
that would be fine. 01:02:45
That will take a handful of months to get that completed, but we can do whatever you need. 01:02:50
Can you back up in the slide? 01:02:56
So when meeting with Laura that 3.2 we already spend in 2024 and same with the 8:35 we already spent. 01:02:57
So to say you already spent it. 01:03:07
What do you mean mean it was spent on? 01:03:10
City services and stuff for last year, right? 01:03:13
Like for other, well, things. 01:03:16
If you look at the audit, you also transferred 2.7 million of the general fund for other capital projects and stuff, right? But we 01:03:19
spent, yeah, we spent it on things, right? 01:03:23
You didn't spend every dime of that, no. 01:03:29
The vast well capital projects. 01:03:31
Umm, not every time. I, I, we've got two months left of the year, right? Well, that was, that was 2024 though, so you still 01:03:35
receive more money this year, so. 01:03:40
Well, in preliminary discussions with Christie. 01:03:45
Unfortunately couldn't be here tonight. 01:03:48
She intimated yes, we there was enough. 01:03:51
There's enough fluidity in that number that they could help make that payment the bond payment. 01:03:54
Right, but. 01:03:59
We OK. 01:04:00
I don't like that answer though, because it's. 01:04:02
There's only a couple what, 1020 thousand 20? There's not a lot left in what we. 01:04:05
What you're saying is, is that we bought some big things. 01:04:10
And in future years, maybe we won't buy other big things. 01:04:13
So we could then dedicate it for that is what you're saying? 01:04:16
What capital projects in different? What I'm saying is on the surface, the city has the cash flow to support the project. 01:04:19
Right, but. 01:04:28
But then you'd have to dedicate that money to that. 01:04:31
Well, you have to dedicate the money to something. So I guess the state is previous years we were dedicating that to something. 01:04:34
Is what I'm saying so? 01:04:41
All those other things that you did would there would be a then a gap. 01:04:42
Yes and no. So the city has to dedicate those. Well, it doesn't have to. You can't dedicate it in both places, right. So, but if 01:04:46
you have a capital project that you already paid for, in theory, you're not going to have that new capital project tomorrow, 01:04:51
correct, Right. But. 01:04:55
Some of it is capital project for the vast majority isn't capital project, yeah, it could be whatever services the city provides, 01:05:00
right. There was a lot of things that weren't capital projects in there, right. And what I'm saying is, is that now you would all 01:05:05
of those things moving forward over the next couple years, you wouldn't have that because you're now putting them in first place 01:05:10
to pay for that. So I guess my. 01:05:15
I'm not trying to be argumentative, but devil's advocate, right? 01:05:20
Is that you're going to have future needs of the city. So is this city center a future need of the city that you want to 01:05:23
prioritize? But I think that I agree, you're prioritizing it, but then you also have to account for that the city is going to 01:05:29
continue to receive increased sales tax based on historical trends. 01:05:34
Right. And I think that's where you could base yourself on something because what the information that Laura gave is that there 01:05:40
will be only A2, but there will be A. 01:05:44
$296,000 increase. 01:05:48
From one year to the next. So I give it that no, so that that was just based upon she wasn't predicting or trying to project, she 01:05:51
was saying. 01:05:56
If you used a simple interest rate to show investors saying, hey, here's a realistic. 01:06:00
Increase of that sales tax over the next couple of years, what that could be, she wasn't trying to predict or tell you. 01:06:05
This is what your availability is. That's simply based upon 2024 number project. Yeah, just kind of a projection of that's where I 01:06:11
feel like doing a market study would actually answer a lot of those questions. 01:06:16
Like it for our community. 01:06:21
Well, I think before. 01:06:23
You need to go there. I would like to have more time to work with staff to say. 01:06:25
Instead of just saying, oh, we spent that money. Well, yeah, you spent that money, but how did you spend that money and what are 01:06:30
those reoccurring costs moving forward to say, does the city need that money going forward? 01:06:35
Or is the city comfortable saying yeah, we need this city and I'm not here to say yeah or nay? 01:06:40
They say, well, the state center now is a priority. We need to make room in our budget to make these payments. 01:06:46
So I think the first of all we needed to say how was the money used? 01:06:52
In past. 01:06:56
Is that going to be a continued need of the city? 01:06:57
To come back to say. 01:07:00
Well, yeah, you have the capacity to make these payments and I think that we're in agreement or an agreement on that, that. 01:07:01
To me. 01:07:09
It's one thing to be able to say, yes, we can afford the payments with the cash flow that we have. It's another to say we can 01:07:11
afford the payments with the cash flow that we have and operate our city. And I think it's the answer to both of those that we 01:07:17
need to make sure that we have. Totally agree and or you know, because we did a fire station. 01:07:23
We're talking about. 01:07:29
Ice skating rink or a roller skating rink. Or, you know, the Lakefront master plan or the corridor. 01:07:30
Like there's all these. 01:07:37
You know, big projects that are going through and it's like that has been something that. 01:07:38
You know, we've been dreaming all of these other things. You eat that up. 01:07:43
With only a 290,000 increase on the 4%. 01:07:46
And you're showing us a $2,000,000 payment, not the 900,000. 01:07:50
We're short 1.4 million. 01:07:54
So it's like. 01:07:57
We've got to have a conversation of. 01:07:57
What else are we going to cut? Or. 01:08:00
What taxes are we going to increase to get to that $1.7 million shortfall? 01:08:03
Between the correct I think. 01:08:08
To be respectful, I think you're confusing some of the terms and some of the numbers that were shared of saying. 01:08:11
It's not that it's like you just have $290,000 increase. 01:08:16
There's all kinds of components that influence that factor. 01:08:19
And I think we need to do that now, working with staff to say. 01:08:23
How did you use your sales tax? How did you use your general fund? What numbers were there? 01:08:26
And to say hey, you're stealing it from 1 project to pay another project. 01:08:32
The city is evolving and what what, how does the city want to use its money, I guess is all I'm saying. So well, I'm just really 01:08:35
glad that you're that we're openly talking about. 01:08:39
It was spent. 01:08:43
Then it will move over to here and you can't use it with two hands. So it's like, yeah. 01:08:45
We got to have this conversation for the next 20 years. This is not going to be available completely, completely agree. So we 01:08:49
won't know. 01:08:52
Excuse me? 01:08:57
We won't know. 01:08:58
I guess what I'm wondering is when we sign or when we finalize the bond? 01:09:00
Will it be? I mean, I've seen with my mortgage, I know exactly what I'm paying for the next 30 years every month. Oh, you'll know 01:09:04
exactly. Yeah. So we'll see Like this is how many months we'll be paying. 01:09:10
For how many years we'll be paying 900,000? This is how many years we'll be paying more of that 2 million. So we'll actually have 01:09:15
a really good map of OK, at this point. You know, if it was too soon, then that would be really concerning if we were paying 2 01:09:20
million. 01:09:25
After the first year, that might not be as reasonable with our other projects we want to do. But if it's something where we're 01:09:30
paying 900,000 for the first few years or however many years, that might make it look more reasonable. So I don't feel like we can 01:09:37
really decide until we know what that looks like and we want to structure that to say. 01:09:43
And also. 01:09:50
Well, we want to. 01:09:52
Make a reasonable. 01:09:54
Assumptions moving forward of what that sales tax? 01:09:57
There's going to be different levels of that, right? Because there's going to be just the. 01:10:00
What do you think is going to happen in the city? Like what? What's reasonable this that you can? 01:10:03
Say, hey, that's we're gonna What do we want to show investors of being conservative? 01:10:08
And then also having some buffer than her to say hey, heaven forbid everything goes sideways. 01:10:12
These tariffs go to 50% and we can't buy anything anymore. 01:10:16
Does the city still have the capacity to make these at a basic level? So yes, we will run different scenarios to make sure we're 01:10:21
very comfortable. 01:10:25
And structure the debt so that you have the runway to absorb this and you have the runway to, hey, do you need to shift some 01:10:28
projects around like with Mr. Holloway is saying, hey, we have capital needs of the city. 01:10:34
Unfortunately, your growing pains, right, because you're trying to figure out what can we build now, what do we need now? What's 01:10:40
going to serve the city not only today but 10 years from now? 01:10:44
But also you have other capital you're gonna have to prioritize and budget for these projects. 01:10:49
So I want to tell you. 01:10:53
Councilwoman Sifuentes made a comment that was making me think in the way you answered it was making me think about it, something 01:10:54
that we were talking about just a little bit earlier. 01:10:57
If we know the full payment schedule and the amortization schedule up front. 01:11:01
When we were talking earlier about rates and that it's fixed rate, but then in terms of. 01:11:06
The. 01:11:12
I'm still not 100% clear on how that works. 01:11:14
So what I want to? 01:11:17
Understand, or at least get a comment that makes me feel more comfortable with it. 01:11:19
Is. 01:11:23
What it was making me think is that the rate that a bondholder earns is not necessarily. 01:11:25
Influenced by the payment that we're making. 01:11:32
That's kind of what I heard and I'm not sure if that's. 01:11:34
Right or not? 01:11:36
No SO, but I already know what the fixed payment is. 01:11:37
Then then I'm having a hard time reconciling that a rate somewhere could change that we don't know what it is yet. 01:11:40
Think of it a different way. 01:11:46
Instead of thinking of all the different bond payments, say that you're Mr. Clausen saying, hey, I want to buy bonds. 01:11:48
And you want to buy whatever bond you is. 01:11:53
I have $100,000 and I'm going to say, hey, I don't need $100,000 for 10 years, so I'm going to buy a bond in 10 years from now. 01:11:56
And that $100,000 is going to be invested for 10 years. 01:12:04
You know in 10 years that you're gonna get your principal back, so you're not gonna receive any principal until you're 10. 01:12:08
And you're going to earn that like. 01:12:13
3.27%. 01:12:17
So you know for your $100,000 that you're receiving 3.27% over the next 10 years? 01:12:19
All the bondholders know they have their schedule of what their and their principal is going to amortize. 01:12:25
And that all of that average together is what we'll report back to you. So everyone is more sense. That makes sense, yeah. 01:12:30
I liked. 01:12:38
Councilman Days. 01:12:39
Question about when you come back. 01:12:40
And we vote on it. 01:12:43
So you go out to the market. 01:12:45
You'll get the parameters. You'll come back and say hey. 01:12:48
900 thousand the first year, 1.5 the second, whatever. 01:12:51
2 million and we will then vote. 01:12:55
And do an administrative vote. 01:12:59
On. 01:13:02
We are because we've pre authorized you tonight. 01:13:05
On what those parameters are? 01:13:08
Then we can always back out through an administrative vote later. 01:13:11
Once you go to the market. 01:13:15
No SO. 01:13:17
Over what we're doing today is a super parameters and so that will give us the parameters that we can execute the transaction. 01:13:19
We will work closely with staff to make sure that they keep you apprised of the process because. 01:13:26
The next few steps I'll talk. I'll talk about the steps here in a few minutes. 01:13:31
But once we go out to market and sell those bonds, we're locked and loaded and we're back out after tonight after. 01:13:34
Now, after today, yes, you can back out. 01:13:40
We're not going to sell the bonds for. 01:13:43
A couple of months yet, right? This is the first step in a process. There has to be a public hearing process, driving documents, 01:13:45
getting ratings. 01:13:49
This is simply the first step in that process. 01:13:52
The city can still yes, if we. 01:13:54
So yeah, here's the process. So. 01:13:56
Over the next, we've identified a project city center. 01:13:59
We will engage with the various partners. 01:14:03
We adopt A bond parameters to kind of. 01:14:05
Like I said, there's different noticing and different time constraints that we have to address. 01:14:08
And the bond parameters gets that ball rolling. 01:14:13
We'll draft a variety of fun bond documents that you can. 01:14:15
That we will read that talk about the security qualifying for the tax exemption and all of that. 01:14:19
We meet with a bond rating agencies. 01:14:25
Unlike your. 01:14:27
Unlike your personal finances again. 01:14:30
Your your credit score is. 01:14:32
760 dependent, regardless if you're buying a house or credit card or. 01:14:34
Or a car, right? Well, the city, if you remember you, the city sold water and sewer revenue bonds. Oh, was that last year or two 01:14:39
years ago? I forget. 01:14:44
You have your rating on those bonds. Well, that rating is only for those series of bonds. 01:14:48
Now we're going to go out for sales tax revenue bonds. You actually get a rating on this once you cities can have multiple 01:14:53
different credit ratings. 01:14:56
So that's where the rating agencies. 01:14:59
Once we get the rating back, then we'll disseminate an offering document to the investing public. 01:15:01
What price of bonds and clothes so the city can pull the plug on this process for the next? 01:15:05
Three months, call it, and then once, but once we go and price the bonds, then we're locked and we'll close and we can't back out. 01:15:11
Before you lock, do you come back and ask us for a vote? 01:15:15
No, tonight is the you're delegating all of the authority to price and sell these bonds today. We can come back and provide you 01:15:19
updates along the way if you like. 01:15:23
But tonight, we'll delegate all the authority to the Pricing Committee. 01:15:28
OK. So this was the question I asked to Jamie and I don't know if it goes to you or our attorney. Is tonight the legislative vote 01:15:31
to authorize this or the executive? 01:15:35
Or the administrative vote. 01:15:40
On these fonts. 01:15:41
Is this a legislative action or an administrative? 01:15:44
So the. 01:15:47
The statute on referendum and that's what you're referring to is you're trying to. 01:15:49
Trying to get. 01:15:53
An answer on whether tonight is the. 01:15:54
Potential for. 01:15:57
For you to lead a referendum on this particular action if it doesn't go the way you want. 01:15:58
So the city attorney or to know what my action is as a council member? 01:16:03
So what you're asking is for the city attorney. Let's just make an assumption here that. 01:16:08
The vote goes to approve this tonight. 01:16:14
And then so as representing the city. 01:16:17
The voice of the city has been made. 01:16:20
And So what you're asking is potentially to help me and to create a conflict of interest between myself and. 01:16:23
The majority of the City Council. 01:16:29
So the. 01:16:31
That particular question. 01:16:33
They're in the referendum statute. There is a very specific point in time where the city attorney weighs in on whether or not the 01:16:35
issue is referrable. 01:16:38
So it would be premature for the city attorney to weigh whether it's me or Jamie sitting here. 01:16:42
To weigh in on that particular question because. 01:16:46
I'm gonna have to myself or Jamie or somebody, the city attorney in that role. 01:16:49
We'll have to weigh in on that later. 01:16:53
So there's not a preview or a. 01:16:55
You know it depends on. 01:16:58
A number of factors that go into it. 01:17:00
Sometimes it can be legislative, sometimes it can be. 01:17:02
Administrative. 01:17:05
So why have a public hearing on May 14th of tonight is all done? Said and done. 01:17:06
Why wouldn't you do that? Because the public can still come in and and you can talk to you. 01:17:12
Madam Mayor, Members of Council. 01:17:19
Mr. Holloway. 01:17:23
The reason to have a public hearing is there's a requirement under the Utah Municipal Bond Act that requires to have a public 01:17:24
hearing before you can issue bonds and that's why the public hearing is held. 01:17:28
Yeah, but it would. It would. 01:17:35
Let me give you a little bit of history. 01:17:36
So, umm. 01:17:38
Brad may have some more history on this one. I think he's four days older than older than I am. 01:17:39
But it used there used to be kind of a 2 step process. We used to have a parameter resolution, then you come back for the final 01:17:44
bond resolution. 01:17:47
The tricky thing there becomes. 01:17:51
When you get ready to sell bonds, we can't have, we can't sell bonds and come back to the council to say, well, did you approve 01:17:55
this, the bond sale? 01:17:58
Because if you go out and sell bonds. 01:18:02
In our world. 01:18:04
Selling bonds is very much a handshake and reputation basis, so if we went on sold bonds, I got everyone to commit to buy the 01:18:05
bonds. 01:18:09
And then also the City Council reneged on it. 01:18:12
It would be very bad for the city trying to sell bonds in the future. 01:18:15
So now what you do is you get this approval, you go through the public hearing to say, hey, the public is airing. 01:18:19
Any comments on this one? 01:18:25
But it allows you to move forward along the process if there's any any process any. 01:18:26
Period along the way. The city doesn't want to do this. 01:18:31
You're not saying you have to do the project tonight. You're not saying you will do it. You're simply saying, hey, we're 01:18:34
delegating the authority to have this process that if everything continues to line up. 01:18:39
That we will continue to move forward, but if there was a future time that the city didn't want to do it. 01:18:44
This will just not go forward with the project. It looks like we've established that between now and then you can. 01:18:49
Change how you feel about it and there'll be a process that it goes through and we now know. 01:18:56
When our attorney can weigh in on it. So let's continue with the discussion. 01:19:02
I do want to clarify. 01:19:06
I think it's important for the council members to understand that if we for some reason. 01:19:08
After the public hearing or in any of this process, what steps would be required? 01:19:16
Lake we, I don't think there's an official action like a council process, do we? Just like e-mail you and say hey. 01:19:21
We want to look at this again. 01:19:29
Well, we do know that this is going to come on to the agenda on May 14th if you approve it. It's in the. 01:19:31
What is it called the recommendation? 01:19:38
Or the motion, excuse me, So you know that this will be on the agenda and if you change your mind during that time, you will have 01:19:40
a public hearing time to make a different decision. 01:19:45
So because it's on the agenda that would give the opportunity, I'm so sorry, that would give you that opportunity to make a motion 01:19:51
to say. 01:19:54
This isn't what we're expecting. 01:19:58
My concern is more of. 01:20:01
I I don't. 01:20:04
I don't want to just approve it. 01:20:07
Without understanding what our payments are, I don't want to just. 01:20:09
Like I want there to be a process. Can we vote to have something in the agenda? 01:20:13
To have an update on this so that we are being. 01:20:18
We're fully aware of what we're doing over the mayor. That's fine. I want to add in. Go ahead, Pam. 01:20:21
The 14th will strictly be a public hearing. There will be no. 01:20:27
Other motion made at that one. 01:20:31
No, but decide what you want to. But it is an opportunity to make a different decision. If we wanted to pull back, that presents 01:20:34
an opportunity where it's coming to the public. 01:20:38
So, yeah, so you'd have to make a motion to put it on the next agenda after that. So if you want to put it on, yeah, then that 01:20:43
might be what you would want to do. I guess I just don't want this to be like, OK, we approved it. 01:20:49
And we talked about three to five months and then all of a sudden, you know, at day 90, bonds are being sold. And I'm like, oh 01:20:54
crap, I missed out three months. So Marty, just to clarify. 01:21:00
Because it's coming on that agenda. If you wanted us to expand that agenda item, I'd be happy to do that. And then if you wanted 01:21:07
to put it on, we'll be in a public meet. I mean, well, it'll be on the agenda so you can. 01:21:12
Put that into the next meeting. So. 01:21:18
You'll have time before it goes according to that timeline. Just to clarify, that's only a month and a half away. 01:21:20
We will, we have all the numbers. No, what I would suggest, and I want you to be 100% this. These are big decisions. We don't want 01:21:26
to force this down your throat and we don't want to just. 01:21:31
Ramrod this down if you want. 01:21:37
Monthly or whatever period of time or some kind of reporting. 01:21:39
Status. We're happy to do that. If you want just a hey, here's A1 pager of what the status of where we're at. 01:21:43
This is kind of how things are. This is how the market is. This is how. 01:21:49
The feedback from Maggie, we're happy to provide our. 01:21:52
Realistically. 01:21:56
Regular basis? Well, otherwise they feel like worse. 01:21:57
I just. 01:22:02
I would really appreciate that as a council member, because I don't want to just say. 01:22:03
You know, OK, $35 million check. It feels kind of like a blank check in a way. I know it's. 01:22:08
Got a Max of 35 million. 01:22:14
But if things are adjusted and mags maybe only pain. 01:22:16
Instead of 1/3 they're paying 25% or something. I I want to be fully apprised to all of this. Yeah, we'd happy to do public 01:22:19
equally. 01:22:23
Would need to be. So I think this is a really important part of the discussion we had a little bit earlier where people were 01:22:28
asking, well, are we going to have to prioritize? Are we going to look at our economics? And I think David did a nice job saying. 01:22:35
The standard operating procedure for this is to set these parameters. 01:22:42
And then to go back and find all of that information. 01:22:47
And that's just part of the process. So to follow this process, Marty, the way that we'll do this to ensure what you're saying is 01:22:50
that the next meeting. 01:22:55
We can expand the agenda item. 01:23:00
Or we can. 01:23:02
If we don't have it then. 01:23:04
You can request another agenda item and we'll keep adding it. 01:23:06
Until that time comes, and that'll be our process. 01:23:10
I can't remember, are you on a? 01:23:13
By do you meet every two weeks, twice a month or once a month? That's twice a month. OK, Yeah. We, we're yeah. 01:23:15
However, yeah, we can. However, wants to report back. We'll report back. 01:23:20
Yeah. And I think what we'll do is we. 01:23:24
The City Council meets with the city manager before these meetings and we'll let them know if it's ready and then you can decide 01:23:27
when you want to put it on the agenda. 01:23:31
So. 01:23:35
I think it's a good process. We already have a launching point for the next meeting. 01:23:36
Great. 01:23:41
I think not only. 01:23:42
Because we. 01:23:44
Can't spend the same dollar twice. 01:23:46
And we're talking about a $2,000,000 payment. 01:23:48
And, umm. 01:23:52
It's going into our three-point. 01:23:53
For 3.2. 01:23:56
$1,000,000 sales tax. 01:24:00
I think. 01:24:02
The study of what we spent that. 01:24:03
Not only one year ago, but. 01:24:07
The last two years so it gives you. 01:24:09
An understanding of was it just capital projects? 01:24:11
But then also a forecast of. 01:24:14
What are all the other capital projects that we have promised voters? 01:24:17
Just in writing, I'm thinking many of them. 01:24:20
That OK? Could that even fit in? 01:24:23
And then the other thing is is. 01:24:25
It's not. It's not the other thing. It's the. 01:24:29
The increase is only. 01:24:34
Tonight or we're hoping 4% of 290. 01:24:36
Or 4% would be 290,000. 01:24:40
OK. If we're going to say we're not going to cut these capital? 01:24:43
Projects or whatever. 01:24:47
Because we've made a promise. 01:24:49
We're not going to increase sales tax. Well, we can't increase sales tax because we're at the state Max of sales tax. So it's 01:24:51
maxed everybody like when I looked at. 01:24:56
The rest of the county, everyone's at the mat. Yep. So like we're higher on sales tax than everybody else, right? So we can't do 01:25:00
that. 01:25:04
But we're short. 01:25:08
Were short 101.7 million so it's. 01:25:09
We've made promises socially of we're not going to increase any other taxes. So it's like. 01:25:13
We have to look at what we spend. 01:25:19
But then we also have to go. 01:25:21
How do you not raise any other taxes if you're short 1.7 off of if the increase is only? 01:25:23
300K. 01:25:29
You know the hoping that it increases 300K and I want to clarify and when we I want to put together a schedule so we can clarify 01:25:30
some of these components so we're not. 01:25:34
Conflicting comment. 01:25:39
Making sure all the terms are straight in front of us and we're the cash flows and all of that so. 01:25:41
I think that will be helpful because saying we're short or saying that there's promises out there or. 01:25:47
Basing math off of parameters that we're not actually going to, we're unlikely to. 01:25:54
No, that increases what Laura gave us. 01:26:01
Yeah, but it. 01:26:04
Based off of 4% growth. 01:26:06
That's not my number. 01:26:08
Let David go ahead. Eric, did you have something? Yeah, I just want to reiterate because it was already said tonight that. 01:26:09
That the 4% and then the 1%. 01:26:16
Was a worst case scenario. It was not intending to capture. 01:26:18
Any of. 01:26:23
Of the known growth that's happening in the city here over the next few years. 01:26:24
It did not incorporate the grocery store, the hotels or the OR the other developments that are coming into the city. 01:26:28
It was simply. 01:26:34
A feasibility study to determine what our debt service coverage was. 01:26:36
And so. 01:26:40
Going back to that 4% as though that is a. 01:26:42
Number to lean on. 01:26:45
Is probably not the right number to be leaning on. 01:26:47
Our sales tax growth over the last few years has been. 01:26:51
Substantially greater than that, 12 to 20% per year. 01:26:55
And so. 01:26:59
Doing a study that you're talking about, although that would come at an extra cost to us. 01:27:00
May be of great benefit because I think that. 01:27:04
What we're? 01:27:07
Experiencing and what we anticipate coming in the near future is. 01:27:09
Not just, well, not only that, but it's not. There are a lot of numbers that are being thrown out that are. 01:27:14
What is it called? 01:27:23
Yeah, their estimations or their ideas or their parameters. For instance, it's like a credit card and you have. 01:27:25
You know $4000 on your credit card, but you only ever spend $100 on it, but you could spend 4000. 01:27:32
And so somebody is saying, Can you believe we are spending 4000, but we actually only spend it for gas and so we only spend 01:27:40
$120.00 a month. 01:27:44
Those are the numbers and the ranges that are being thrown out right now, and they're not accurate. 01:27:48
It's like and when you say, well there's a 6%. 01:27:53
Interest rate at a $35 million. 01:27:56
Building, but when we're talking about the market and the numbers go down to the. 01:28:01
You know 4.5. Those numbers are pretty far off. Additionally. 01:28:06
We're in the middle of architecture and design right now, so. 01:28:10
We're going through this process and we don't even know the portion. 01:28:14
Of the cost that the city will assess because this isn't a government 1. 01:28:18
Building City Hall that we're talking about, this is a. 01:28:25
Shared center, where Vineyard is inserting space inside it to house the people who work here and give the daily services that we 01:28:29
all expect to see. But we don't know those costs. 01:28:36
So I think Marty stated it well that we'd like to see those actuals come back. And then David said it well that he liked to put. 01:28:43
An actual number sheet together so that we can state proper numbers. 01:28:51
For the public and for us who have to make this decision. 01:28:56
Love it. 01:29:00
Let's move off this topic though, because we can't quote those numbers at this point. 01:29:02
I wasn't going to quote those. I was only gonna actually agree with Eric in that. 01:29:07
The 4% sales tax was larger. We actually saw a total revenue increase of about 33%. 01:29:11
Of other taxes or whatever. So I think that is. 01:29:18
You know, there's different businesses. Topgolf was a huge, it was a huge 1. And so I, I agree, like you could see businesses. 01:29:22
But The thing is, is Laura didn't base that. She's like. 01:29:30
We're not going to base it off of that. And I was like, well. 01:29:33
OK. I'd love to see those numbers beforehand. 01:29:36
But at the same rate. 01:29:38
Even though we saw 33% increase, we saw. 01:29:40
A 43% increase in spend. 01:29:44
So. 01:29:47
Yeah, revenue went up, but our spending went way up. And so, but my, my scare is. 01:29:48
You're going to go take that money when our spending like we hire another. 01:29:54
Deputy Recorder, we have this growth of all these things that we need and we're locking it in. So that's why I'm afraid of that. 01:29:58
1.7 million. Yeah. I'd like to see that study from staff and LRB to see what those actually looked like, because I know, yeah, 01:30:04
Councilman Holdaway, you and I were going back and forth on this a little bit today and I was looking at different numbers and I 01:30:10
got completely different percentages and. 01:30:15
One of us is inaccurate in our interpretation. I honestly don't know who. 01:30:22
Yeah. So I would love to see, I would love to see that study happen. 01:30:26
So. 01:30:30
Get some more accurate resolution to well and I think it's important to remember that she was basing up off of conservative 01:30:32
estimates like. 01:30:36
Eric was saying so that we can be careful with how we're spending and we can be thoughtful about putting those numbers forward. 01:30:41
And while we do that, maybe it would be good to pull up what we actually spent those dollars on and where the funds came from and 01:30:49
how they're separate. 01:30:53
And like for instance, some of the money that went out last year was to pay down debt early and close out certain things or? 01:30:58
There's some things that came from property tax that's totally outside of this, So what does it look like? 01:31:06
We can add that to this. I think the final, the clarifying item too is like the city's not going to have a debt service payment 01:31:11
for the next couple of fiscal years. 01:31:15
Not first payment is going to be like in today's interest rate less than $1,000,000 so. 01:31:19
To be saying hey we're paying $2,000,000 out of the gates isn't accurate because the first payment that's not going to be for. 01:31:24
Years to come, so there's still some ways to absorb this and that's why I said. 01:31:29
Their structuring and thought to still go into this process so. 01:31:34
Was there and I can't remember there's any more slides. 01:31:37
I don't just say I agree with the market study for breadth. Thanks, that's a good idea. 01:31:41
I think we talked about the parameters. Like I said, the parameters sets the ball in motion. 01:31:45
There, there's going to be some public hearings, there's some contestability periods that we have to just kind of get out, get out 01:31:51
of the way. 01:31:54
This is a very standard. This is how. 01:31:58
Not saying it's right or wrong, but this is just how it's done. 01:32:01
Statewide and nationwide. So this is. 01:32:04
How we're going about it? Super parameters? I still remember the conversion. 01:32:07
Sitting Richard Scott's office years ago when this first started so. 01:32:10
Next slide, please. 01:32:14
OK. I think we've kind of hit on all of these, but just to reiterate. 01:32:16
If the City Council wants to proceed with this. 01:32:21
We'll get the ball rolling. We'll coordinate with staff on working with the numbers. 01:32:23
My guess is we'll probably hang back on drafting documents until we come back to the city. Just saying, hey, make sure this all 01:32:29
cash flows. 01:32:32
We have a call not to put Mag on the spot, but we have a call with Mag here. 01:32:36
The middle. 01:32:41
April to understand their level of participation. 01:32:42
I know the staff are working with the architect and contractor because we want to make sure we have what that what the what the 01:32:46
project looks like and getting all those construction contracts in place. 01:32:52
And then working towards getting the documents in place so we can go and secure the bond rating. 01:32:58
I think those are the major next steps. 01:33:03
Then I think Wilbur's report back on a timely basis just to make sure this the Council has the information and timely basis. 01:33:05
All right. But thank you for the discussion tonight. I know. 01:33:12
There's different thoughts, So what makes the world go around? But we welcome, we really do welcome the feedback from everyone to 01:33:15
make sure everyone's comfortable. 01:33:18
Thank you, Council. Do you have questions? 01:33:22
Comments. 01:33:26
I'd like to say thank you for being so. 01:33:28
Prepared and patient with all of us. You're most welcome. These are big decisions in and then I have one about the the the 01:33:31
resolution, but maybe that one needs to wait. 01:33:36
I'm curious if we can amend this. 01:33:42
To include the. 01:33:45
To make the market study. 01:33:47
Required. 01:33:50
Do you want to make it required or do you want to come back to it after? We find the numbers from working with staff so that if 01:33:52
they have what they need and you can see the the. 01:33:56
The cost from the incoming economic development that we don't have to pay the additional funding for the study. 01:34:01
That's a good question. 01:34:12
To me that it would come down to how much the additional study would. Yeah, I'm, I'm curious the cost of doing a market study. 01:34:13
What if we bring that dollars? What if we bring? 01:34:18
Brett, what if we bring that comment back to the public hearing? 01:34:24
And then if we need to, we can. 01:34:27
Add it on to something future. 01:34:31
I mean, if you guys want to do it now, that would be my recommendation. But if you guys want to bring, I'm OK with that. I just 01:34:33
know that. 01:34:36
For for my part. 01:34:40
I'm comfortable with the parameters. 01:34:42
But I'm. 01:34:44
Not 100% there. 01:34:45
For actually selling the bonds without seeing. 01:34:48
More details on Not Just the Bond. 01:34:52
Structure. But on how it affects the city's operations, do you guys feel like you can? 01:34:55
Gather information that would be meaningful to Brett's comment without this study. Or do you need us to? 01:35:01
We can. We can definitely provide. 01:35:07
Meaningful information to address it and then. 01:35:10
In my in my from my experience, yes, but I understand. 01:35:13
You have a responsibility to your constituents, so I believe that we can provide enough information to at least. 01:35:17
Address it and then we can maybe at that point decide, hey, we need more information. 01:35:22
I guess my question about the resolution is. 01:35:26
I just, I know we've talked about not selling bonds until we've discussed it over and over. 01:35:30
I don't want to legally bind myself into hey, legally on paper in this resolution, I did say you guys could sell bonds. 01:35:37
But uh. 01:35:45
So I don't know if we can make an amendment to the resolution that clarifies. 01:35:46
That we are. 01:35:50
That we are not. 01:35:52
Like these are the bond parameters that we're not ready to just. 01:35:53
Say they can sell the bonds. 01:35:57
I think you have a path moving forward and it's this one. 01:35:59
In order for them to get all of the studies done and have the ability to do what they need to do. 01:36:02
It would be best, I think, if we move forward and then if you don't like where the numbers are headed. 01:36:08
Let's pull back on it. 01:36:13
Because your hands truly aren't tied in this, which I think were made really clear. What? I want to say something else too. I 01:36:15
understand what you're saying, the consternation here. 01:36:20
The professionals here, we're not like. 01:36:25
Driving our own bus, we only started this because the city reached out to us, so we're only going to act. 01:36:28
If you want us to act so, I understand your. 01:36:34
I I really respect that and I actually feel really comfortable and confident working with LRB. I think more than anything is I 01:36:37
just take. 01:36:41
What I legally, contractually vote on seriously. And so I don't know if our attorney wants to pipe in. 01:36:45
But I'm just wondering. 01:36:52
I don't want it. I don't enjoy voting yes on something. 01:36:54
When I'm like. 01:36:58
You know, just kidding, we're not really doing that. 01:37:00
You know what I mean? Like I don't want it to be something that I don't want there to be any confusion on what the intentions are 01:37:02
here today. I guess think of it a different way. This is just the first step in the process. 01:37:07
Like we're not, we're not to the final, we're not to the one yard, 1 yard line yet. 01:37:13
This is simply in our world because we're dealing with tax exempt securities. 01:37:17
We have to jump through a number of hoops and this is simply the first hoop to get that. 01:37:21
To get the circus going, and I do appreciate that. I guess I was just hoping the attorney would pipe in. Well, and the other 01:37:25
question too is where what do you need clarity on? 01:37:29
I want to understand the payment. 01:37:34
The payment schedule. 01:37:37
I want to understand the bond rates, what they're likely going to be. 01:37:39
More a little bit more concise. 01:37:44
This is a really big commitment and I don't want to go in. 01:37:47
Just with. 01:37:50
Those rose colored glasses, I want to go in with all the facts and information. 01:37:51
To make sure that I can back my vote. So this vote. 01:37:56
Gives them the ability. 01:38:01
To go and get you that information, and I understand that, but I also heard earlier that this vote gives them the permission to 01:38:03
sell the bonds. 01:38:07
So I need to. I want to hear from her attorney. 01:38:12
To understand that better, I actually think that question is best answered by. 01:38:15
That Brad. 01:38:20
Mr. Mayor, members of the Council. 01:38:22
I think there are a lot of different ways you can go tonight. You can go ahead and adopt the resolution in its current form. 01:38:24
You could table the resolution if you wanted to, or you could go ahead and make an amendment to the resolution to make you more 01:38:30
comfortable such that either you add to the list of the designated officers so that you can be part of the one of the designated 01:38:35
officers that gets to see those terms. 01:38:41
Or we can just also bring it back. 01:38:47
At another council meeting as well, I will tell you that. 01:38:50
If uh. 01:38:53
The bond terms are going to be subject to a council approval. There is some. 01:38:54
Kind of uncertainty associated with that. 01:39:00
Just given kind of what the market conditions are and given what underwriters conditions, underwriters requirements are. 01:39:02
And so there may be a little bit of flexibility that you have to give up. 01:39:09
In order to do that. But once again, that's for you to decide. That's not my decision. That's a policy decision for you to decide. 01:39:13
So I think you can proceed in a number of different ways. One of the things that this does, as David said, this gets the ball 01:39:21
rolling. It does a couple of different things. That first of all allows us to go ahead and publish various things, start certain 01:39:27
contestability periods. It also allows us to go ahead and reimburse ourselves or the city allows the city can reimburse itself. 01:39:34
From bond proceeds for purposes of federal income tax. 01:39:41
It starts that clock rolling as well. And so it's just a matter of what you would like to do and. 01:39:44
Mayor, what if you? Oh, go ahead. 01:39:50
I was just going to say. 01:39:53
To Brad's point. 01:39:54
There is representation on that bond. 01:39:57
List of designees. The bond committee. 01:40:02
I don't know if you want to. 01:40:05
Arrange for that. 01:40:07
Make up tonight. 01:40:09
It designates the mayor a council member. 01:40:11
And the city manager, if I'm not mistaken. 01:40:14
And so. 01:40:17
One of those individuals. 01:40:18
You can make it however you decide. 01:40:20
So one of the things we could do which we could do that. 01:40:22
And Brett sits on the Finance Committee, so it might be a good idea to put him on there. 01:40:27
But one of the things that we could do. 01:40:31
Is vote this through? 01:40:34
And then if you feel more comfortable to say the next time we're voting or before bonds go out. 01:40:37
That you expand your opportunity for the agenda on the May 14th. 01:40:44
That way you're still meeting your timelines and you could put that stipulation in so it allows them to move forward, but then it 01:40:49
gives you kind of a, a barrier that says, hey, I'm expanding this. 01:40:55
And I want to see it again before this goes out. 01:41:00
So it doesn't. 01:41:04
Impede anything. 01:41:05
But it also. 01:41:06
Stop setting gives you kind of. 01:41:07
Multiple steps in between. 01:41:09
In you said contestability timelines. Could you describe what are all the contestability? 01:41:14
Things that could happen, Brad, you wanna do that? 01:41:19
Is that like referendum stuff? Yeah, In addition to that, in addition to the referendums there are. 01:41:24
The ability to file a lawsuit. 01:41:31
Against the bonds that would join the issuance of the bonds. 01:41:33
So that's that. That's particular portion of the statute that provides it. 01:41:39
If a lawsuit isn't filed within a certain period of time that they're forever barred from doing that, it is beneficial to 01:41:44
bondholders. 01:41:49
To know that their bonds aren't going to be challenged, that their bonds are going to be valid and binding. 01:41:53
Gives them some certainty and helps it out. Helps to market the bonds. 01:41:57
But those are the 22 main things, a lawsuit and a referenda. 01:42:01
This question isn't for you, but it's it's more for Pam being that we move this meeting to this week because you guys are going to 01:42:06
be out. 01:42:10
If you're out of the office, do citizens still get their seven day period? How does that work? How would they reach you if you're 01:42:13
out of the office? They still get their period. They can just turn it in at the office so they'll date and timestamp it for us and 01:42:18
and e-mail it to us so we can get going on the process. 01:42:24
OK. Would you guys be out all next week? 01:42:29
Yes, we're out all next week. 01:42:34
Are you out tomorrow? 01:42:36
Tony should be in tomorrow. 01:42:39
Yeah, no, I'll be in the office. 01:42:42
Tomorrow, half day. 01:42:43
Yeah, till well. 01:42:45
Until the offices close at noon. 01:42:47
OK, thanks. 01:42:49
Kate, any other comments? 01:42:53
All right, if there are no other comments, I'll say that I think this is a. 01:43:02
A good opportunity to move forward so that we can. 01:43:07
Get these numbers brought before us and. 01:43:10
Really research this and decide if this is the way that we want to move forward as a city and make sure that we are prioritizing 01:43:14
things. 01:43:18
The right way. 01:43:21
I do want to make a comment for the public. 01:43:23
We have been talking about this first several years, probably since 2022. 01:43:26
And figuring out ways to prioritize and time things for the public. And one of the things that we've been doing is. 01:43:32
Spreading. 01:43:39
Then getting trailers, moving people into different locations, and doing everything we can to make sure that we're timing these 01:43:40
things at the right time and even now. 01:43:45
Instead of building a building that fits, we are saying, hey, let's create partnerships. Let's really get creative here. 01:43:50
To create a very financial. 01:43:59
Financially feasible way for us to. 01:44:01
Get the space that we need. 01:44:04
To continuing continue to deliver base services because that's what we do in Vineyard is we deliver base services. 01:44:06
And limited recreation. 01:44:15
But we need places for our staff. 01:44:17
Resources and facilities. 01:44:20
That we can continue to operate as we grow and this is a really creative, great solution for our community. 01:44:22
That we can look into more and make sure that it's an affordable opportunity for us, but it's definitely something that we need 01:44:28
because we. 01:44:32
Are in little alcoves and hallways and three and four and five people to a room and switching spots, and we're about to lose a 01:44:36
Conference Center. 01:44:40
So we we want to continue to deliver that service. 01:44:45
That you guys. 01:44:50
Really want in our community for quality of life. With that I will ask. 01:44:51
The City Council for a motion. 01:44:56
Don't be shy. 01:45:12
If you have more questions, ask more questions, otherwise to table it. 01:45:14
Anyone. Did you make a motion to table it? 01:45:19
All right, we have a motion to kill it. 01:45:23
Is there a second? 01:45:26
OK, there's no second. 01:45:30
Can I get another motion? 01:45:32
I believe in you. 01:45:38
All on you. 01:45:40
I moved to adopt A resolution 252025 dash 15. 01:45:42
With the stipulation that we add it to the. 01:45:47
May 14th agenda as well. 01:45:52
Is that how I'm supposed to do that? So here's here's a couple things that you'll need to do. You'll move to adopt the resolution 01:45:54
to 20 2020, 25-15 as presented. You'll set the public hearing for May 14th, 2025. 01:46:00
Then you'll expand the opportunity to discuss. 01:46:07
And make a vote on this again. 01:46:11
Not a vote on this, but kind of, I mean it is a vote. You'll just expand it for discussion and action. 01:46:14
Before it goes out to bot. 01:46:20
Selling the bonds was Marty's opportunity that she wanted to add on to it. 01:46:22
And you can say so moved. 01:46:28
So move we have a first by Brett. Did we want to add Brett as a? 01:46:30
Was it not a stakeholder or a? 01:46:37
Designated Officer, just for the record, yes, I would like that friendly amendment. I would like to add that amendment as well. 01:46:41
All right, thank you, Marty. I have a first by Brett. Can I get a second? 01:46:46
Second Second by Sarah. 01:46:52
Any discussion? Can I get a clarification? Does that make it? 01:46:54
With your legal understanding, does that make it so you guys can go to the market and move or you're just waiting two more weeks? 01:46:58
So with those stipulations, so the stipulation gets the ball rolling. 01:47:05
My understanding that we'll come back to the City Council on May 14th and present. 01:47:08
Numbers, and so all the various numbers we talked about. 01:47:12
And if the City Council likes, it will continue chugging forward. And if not, we'll stop. 01:47:16
Yeah, it is not stop. This moves it forward tonight. 01:47:20
All right, Jake. 01:47:23
Nay, Brett. 01:47:25
Hi, Marty. Hi, Sarah. 01:47:27
All right. Thank you for coming today. Thank you very much. Thank you. Have a good night. 01:47:30
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