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Event transcript
Loaded. 00:05:42
Got a quorum now OK. 00:05:44
Welcome out everybody. 00:05:46
Today is. 00:05:47
July 7th. 00:05:49
It is 4:00. We're going to call the order R. 00:05:52
City Council meeting. 00:05:56
Work session. 00:05:57
Let's see. 00:06:02
Chris Jud. 00:06:04
Could you mind saying? 00:06:05
A prayer for us. Would you feel comfortable doing that? 00:06:06
And a pledge as well. 00:06:09
And then, if you didn't know this, you get a nice American. 00:06:11
That you can. 00:06:14
Put on your. 00:06:15
Well, he has to say prayer. It's, you know, that's kind of the. 00:06:18
That's the the cost of entrance so. 00:06:22
Come on up. 00:06:25
Thanks, Chris. 00:06:25
Yeah, umm. 00:06:26
Our gracious Heavenly Father, we come before Thee. 00:06:34
Afternoon and we give thee thanks for this day. 00:06:36
Father, we're very thankful for the opportunity we have to be here together as a community. 00:06:39
We're thankful for all the freedoms and liberties that we have, especially during this time that we get to celebrate. 00:06:43
Our independence and. 00:06:50
This great nation, Father, at this time we ask you to bless us as residents. Our council, our. 00:06:51
Board members and all those who serve here in this community, that they'll feel inspired, they'll be able to. 00:06:57
Reach out and. 00:07:03
Do the best they can with their abilities. Father, at this time we also to ask thee for a blessing upon our. 00:07:04
National leaders and those throughout the world that they'll continue to be able to find ways to find peace and be able to lookout 00:07:10
for those individuals they serve. 00:07:14
Father, at this time we also ask thee to bless any of those families who are found in vineyards that are in need of help and ask 00:07:17
you to help those neighbors around them to fill that and be able to reach out. 00:07:22
The things we asked, the forefather name that I saw Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. 00:07:27
I pledge allegiance. 00:07:38
Republic for which it stands. 00:07:44
One nation under God. 00:07:46
Indivisible. 00:07:48
Awesome. 00:07:53
All righty, let's go ahead Council, let's do, let's talk to #4 and do our consent item. 00:07:56
Approval of June 23rd. 00:08:02
2026 City Council meetings. 00:08:04
Can I get a motion on that to approve those? 00:08:07
I move to approve the City Council meeting minutes as presented. 00:08:12
OK, do I have a second? 00:08:16
Second. OK, all in favor. 00:08:18
Aye, OK. All right. 00:08:21
Got that taken care of. OK, let's jump into public comment. 00:08:23
Come up to the microphone, did we? Did we do a sign in today, Tony? 00:08:29
OK. 00:08:35
OK. 00:08:45
All righty. 00:08:46
We just have Dora here, but I suspect we have more, so let's start with Daria. 00:08:48
1st. 00:08:52
So come on down. 00:08:53
Thanks Daria. 00:08:54
Daria Evans Villas resident. 00:08:56
Since this is just a work session, I guess I'm going to address this. 5.3 Discuss the resolution 2631 Insignificant land 00:09:00
Resolution by Council member Ezra Near. 00:09:06
I just have. 00:09:14
A question about it. 00:09:15
Since I'm on the Planning Commission, I'm looking at the. 00:09:17
A Vineyard code 15.06 point 030 Vineyard Planning Commission. 00:09:20
Wondering. 00:09:26
Even though we are an advisory body. 00:09:27
We are able to discuss things and. 00:09:30
Plan submission Amendments to plans. 00:09:36
And a land use. 00:09:40
And so I'm wondering if. 00:09:42
That should be. 00:09:45
Addressed by the Planning Commission before it goes forward. That is a great question and good point and also. 00:09:46
I would like to know if we've got any numbers for the fireworks. 00:09:54
How much we spent on fireworks for Vineyard days. 00:09:58
And also on the. 00:10:01
The 2nd of July. 00:10:02
Absolutely, DK do you wanna what do we spend on fireworks this year and. 00:10:04
If we answer. 00:10:10
That real quick. 00:10:11
For Vineyard days. 00:10:13
Yeah, been your days was a total of 15,000. 00:10:15
For fireworks and then what about you also said on the 2nd of July? 00:10:18
12,500. 00:10:23
OK, awesome. 00:10:25
OK. 00:10:27
All righty, let's jump. Anybody else? 00:10:29
Who else would like to? 00:10:31
Come on up. 00:10:33
Let's say I. 00:10:35
So I am one of the the properties that is affected by. 00:10:39
Can I have your OH David height? 00:10:43
I'm in the maples. 00:10:45
That has. 00:10:47
A piece of property that's insignificant. 00:10:49
Less than 250 square feet. 00:10:52
And so we are just looking for a resolution that has cement, a Peachtree garden boxes fence. 00:10:55
That was not. 00:11:01
Put up by me. 00:11:03
And not disclosed by the sellers. 00:11:04
And so. 00:11:06
I would appreciate. 00:11:08
Some type of Ave. 00:11:10
That can. 00:11:12
Not necessarily set precedents because I understand that. 00:11:16
Or get anything for free, I understand that. 00:11:18
But not have to pay for something twice for something that I that I thought was mine to begin with. 00:11:21
And again, I know that there's other cities that do things like this, like. 00:11:27
Bountiful. 00:11:31
Huntsville, they have different things and so. 00:11:33
Just looking for a resolution. 00:11:36
To help out those that are in my situation. 00:11:40
It's been there for over 7 years. That was not put there by me. 00:11:44
But have been kept by me and made better. 00:11:48
So I would support something like. 00:11:53
Resolution. 00:11:55
22631. 00:11:56
Thank you so much. 00:11:58
Anybody else? 00:12:02
OK, awesome. 00:12:07
We will close public comments and jump into our work session. 00:12:09
5.1 Discuss. 400 South Rd. Design and construction. 00:12:12
Councilman Holdaway, do you want to? 00:12:16
Head lead out on this one, Jake. 00:12:18
Sure, you guys see my screen? 00:12:21
OK, so. 00:12:25
Where we want to start? 00:12:27
So. 00:12:32
We are here because. 00:12:34
My father is unwilling to sell his little triangle of land. 00:12:35
To the city. 00:12:42
You don't need that, right? 00:12:44
What? We don't need that triangle, right? 00:12:45
Well, that work. Without it, the city could go around it if they wanted to in that specific design. 00:12:48
I'm just going after the last City Council meeting of what was last voted on, so let me go over the last working session. 00:12:54
This is our fifth working session and. 00:13:02
It was asked to. 00:13:06
Be able to purchase the property so. 00:13:08
That's when we went and said let, let's see what we could do. 00:13:10
I think the mayor, I don't know how long you worked on trying to see if you could buy it. 00:13:13
To get a better design than what was approved. 00:13:16
Um, and I went and met with the. 00:13:20
Different property owners. 00:13:24
Nate Riley, you know. 00:13:26
Keith Holdaway. Sean Herring. 00:13:27
And quite a few others to find a compromise to be able to get through there. 00:13:29
Keith, hold away. 00:13:34
Provided the required right of way. I don't have the year. 00:13:36
Of when that was. 00:13:40
Under the understanding that the. 00:13:42
Larger. 00:13:45
60 foot 63 or whatever foot Rd. would would be required of all land owners. 00:13:46
He was very. 00:13:53
Angry at the time about that required meant. 00:13:55
I don't know if it's 810 years ago. 00:13:58
He made it very clear at the time. 00:13:59
And the city was very clear at the time that every landowner at that time would be held to that same new standard. 00:14:01
With this new Council. 00:14:09
The mayor and other council members have said that the other land owners are not going to be required. 00:14:10
Between the east side of Holdaway Rd. down to the park. 00:14:16
To go to that new standard. 00:14:19
The only. 00:14:21
Parcels are affecting my land and my father. 00:14:22
If you could grab the. 00:14:26
Document for everybody. 00:14:27
To pass those around. 00:14:29
In December of this past year, the Council. 00:14:31
Prior to us being sent. 00:14:34
Step forth a new city standard. 00:14:36
The standard has never applied to any collector Rd. ever built. 00:14:39
So every single collector Rd. that's been built, there's 15 different standards. 00:14:45
And. 00:14:50
The new standard is 83 feet. 00:14:51
So if I'm just going to share on my screen, just kind of walking through the different standards. 00:14:53
Me and David Laray went out and walked them today. 00:14:59
Down on 300 W in front of the fire station. 00:15:03
It only had the collector Rd. only has 40 feet now we're counting. 00:15:06
The. 00:15:10
Sidewalk, curb and gutter. 00:15:11
The lane, bike lane and path. 00:15:13
Now there are some. 00:15:17
Developments. 00:15:19
Down on 300 W that go extremely wider. 00:15:20
As they wanted parking. 00:15:23
We did offer. 00:15:25
In the negotiation with Clegg to say, hey, do you guys want to shrink down? 00:15:27
As kind of a. 00:15:30
Caveat to be able to do that, and those negotiations broke down. 00:15:32
In front of the fire station. It's actually the skinniest. 00:15:37
In terms of and, there was something online about how you couldn't get fire. 00:15:39
Fire trucks in. 00:15:43
And so we reviewed the tape. 00:15:44
The Fire Chief said that the roads were not only ample. 00:15:46
But they they fit the code and so. 00:15:50
The if you can see at the top. 00:15:54
The new. 00:15:56
Cross section of the Vineyard Collectors standard is the city requiring that the holdaways kick over 63 feet? 00:15:57
This doesn't happen in front of. 00:16:05
Mccumbers House doesn't happen in front of. 00:16:07
The mayor's home. 00:16:10
It doesn't happen on Center St. 00:16:11
Even in Center St. 00:16:13
There isn't a sidewalk on one side of the road. 00:16:14
There's only a sidewalk on the other side of the road. 00:16:16
I believe I'm here because my last name is Holdaway and I have to defend my name. 00:16:20
Because there's no one in the city that has this standard. 00:16:24
When my father. 00:16:28
Was approached by the city to donate. 00:16:29
The quarter mile of 21. 00:16:32
Feet, he again reminded the mayor at the time. 00:16:34
OK, I will donate. 00:16:38
The entire pathway for free. 00:16:39
But he reminded them. 00:16:42
What is the standard for the road and is he going to be treated fairly? 00:16:44
So in meeting with the compromise. 00:16:48
We sat everyone down. 00:16:50
And went through and said what was the lane of traffic? 00:16:52
So on 400 S it mimics. 00:16:55
Every single Rd. 00:16:58
Of traffic so. 00:16:59
The compromise goes through and. 00:17:01
It provides. 00:17:06
5 feet of existing sidewalk, it's the same. 00:17:08
It provides 8 feet of parking. 00:17:11
2 feet of curb and gutter. 00:17:13
12 feet of. 00:17:15
Travel Lane. 00:17:17
Another 12 feet of travel aid. 00:17:18
2 feet of. 00:17:20
Now all the only difference is. 00:17:21
If this city on the east side were to go and redevelop, it would cost millions of dollars to be able to go through and do. 00:17:23
The east side would have temporary. 00:17:30
Ballards. 00:17:33
That would be separating the bike lane so that we have one continuous bike lane from. 00:17:34
Vineyard Elementary in the park all the way down. 00:17:40
And the bike lane would shift to the north side of the road. 00:17:42
And then? 00:17:46
On the. 00:17:47
East on the West side of the road. 00:17:48
It would be built to correct standards in the future. If the council wants to spend the millions of dollars moving the curb and 00:17:50
gutter 12 feet toward the Ballards are to do the. 00:17:54
The more safe design. 00:17:59
It would be but. 00:18:00
In meeting with. 00:18:01
Ashley Acres. 00:18:03
And leaders from there and then also. 00:18:04
Riley's it's just treating everyone fair. 00:18:08
To be able to. 00:18:11
Avoid litigation in terms of going through and doing that. 00:18:12
David Kyle. 00:18:17
We reached out to our attorney to get understanding because the council had no appetite. Could you help us understand the? 00:18:17
Process for. 00:18:24
Purchasing. 00:18:26
And the time and the costs. 00:18:27
For eminent domain to be able to force the cell. 00:18:30
Real quick, why would there be any litigation on this piece that the city owns? 00:18:35
So there's a section the city doesn't own. 00:18:40
I'm talking about this piece though. 00:18:42
Like 400 S if this is about that little piece. 00:18:44
Why don't we just go around that piece? 00:18:48
You could go skinny, everything else the standard, you could go skinnier and the city could be for that. 00:18:50
OK, Yeah. 00:18:56
You could be, and my dad has been very clear. 00:18:57
When the city comes and represents themselves, that every single person is going to be treated fair on the on the road. 00:19:00
He's going to go through and say everyone should be treated fair. 00:19:05
And they should provide the same amount of property throughout the thing. 00:19:08
So he can and has land to be able to sue. 00:19:12
And he is more than willing to exercise that right. 00:19:14
And so the litigation is being able to say. 00:19:18
Should everyone be treated fair? Now the compromise. 00:19:21
Is about right in the middle. 00:19:25
4945 feet. Now if the city wants to come back on Keith Holdaway side and say. 00:19:27
Hey, let's do a trail. 00:19:32
And just so you know, the widest trail we could find was 8 1/2 feet. 00:19:34
He's going let's go 10, but let's say we want to go back and say the the largest Rd. Let's do 11, let's do 12 feet. 00:19:37
It gets to a point where. 00:19:45
There's not enough there. There isn't. 00:19:47
And the other thing that's really dark about this, and it really bothers me. 00:19:50
Is. 00:19:53
This standard was put in in December when we voted. 00:19:55
Nobody brought it up. It was. 00:19:58
Buried in a 90 page document with hundreds of different standards. 00:20:00
That were applied. 00:20:04
Every single collector Rd. is built in the city. 00:20:05
We're probably not going to be building another collector rout. 00:20:09
OK, because there's no other places. 00:20:12
So the only segment that we voted in in the past, council and mayor would apply to me and only me and only my family. 00:20:14
And that was passed in December. 00:20:22
So this would be the first one that would apply to. 00:20:24
It probably is probably important the public know that that. 00:20:27
We're talking about about roughly 200 yard segment. 00:20:31
From right corner of hold. 00:20:33
Going West towards the roundabout that services Sleepy Ridge. 00:20:36
That that section there is the part we're talking about. The rest of the road is built now further West of that. 00:20:41
And further east of that, that's the last segment and. 00:20:46
And and this and you're right, we went as we went through and measured all these other. 00:20:50
Collector routes. 00:20:54
None of them were the same. 00:20:55
They were all different. 00:20:57
They all had different different things going. They some of them only had 11 foot lanes and no extra room on the sides and no bike 00:20:58
lanes and no. 00:21:02
You know, just try spread the curb. 00:21:07
So it's just. 00:21:09
It just doesn't make sense to. 00:21:10
To I think it doesn't make sense to try to create a brand new standard for 200 feet of Rd. 00:21:13
Cortana sorry, 20 yards of Rd. 00:21:18
Yes, the last segment. 00:21:21
Nothing else meets that standard. 00:21:23
Why must this when the segment of road right next to it has been functioning perfectly well for the last, I don't know, 20 years, 00:21:25
at least 15? 00:21:29
And so. 00:21:34
There's no, there's no no sense in actually making it wider than needed. 00:21:35
The other thing is, is the beautification on each roads, some roads. 00:21:40
Don't even have a sidewalk on one side aside. 00:21:45
Some of them have trees on one and grass strip and then the other is the sidewalks directly up. 00:21:47
The developer. The person right there living there. 00:21:51
Decided what beautification standards they want and they weren't applied equally. 00:21:55
So this is right in the middle of what it is. 00:22:02
And so. 00:22:05
If the city wants to go and have an argument or a fight. 00:22:06
They can go and do it, and they can build the existing Rd. 00:22:09
But the thing that I really bothers me about. 00:22:14
I'm going to, I'm going to try and stay above. 00:22:19
Board but like. 00:22:21
This property when I bought my home. 00:22:23
The right of way was already. 00:22:27
Sold. So I have no financial gain whatsoever. 00:22:28
Whether it is built? 00:22:32
Or whether it is not? 00:22:33
I'm not going to get the right of way back. I'm not going to. 00:22:34
Get it? There are multiple segments. 00:22:37
In the city where the city takes. 00:22:39
All of it, part of it, or short of it. 00:22:41
There are thousands of parcels in our city that do this. 00:22:43
The other part about the staff report that really bothers me. 00:22:47
Is that in just contacting and I don't know if? 00:22:50
I would love to give some time real quick about the redesign of the plan. The staff comes in and says it would be $30,000. 00:22:52
I asked Sean who's a. 00:22:59
Who's a developer to go through and do this, Sean, Could you stand up and kind of walk about? 00:23:00
The adjustment to the plan and how much it would cost. 00:23:03
Sean Yeah, I'd like you to come talk about it. 00:23:07
So there's a lot of misinformation. 00:23:10
You want to speak to someone else's cost? 00:23:16
Well, if you were to have to redesign the plan and the cost the city put down that it would be $30,000 the redesign, I mean it's 00:23:19
only 800 feet, the redesign of that. 00:23:23
Is a six to eight hour, 10 hour maybe redesign on something that's fairly straightforward and. 00:23:29
They've got most of the data already there. 00:23:35
So if you want a number thrown out, it's 1500 at $2000 to redesign something like that. 00:23:38
So that would be if I was the original. 00:23:44
If I was the original surveyor and. 00:23:48
Engineer on it, which I'm not on this one but. 00:23:50
If we were. 00:23:53
A redesign of that magnitude would be. 00:23:54
A day and 1/2. 00:23:57
How long would that be a professionally stamped design? 00:23:59
By a professional engineer. 00:24:03
100%. 00:24:04
So that's the first problem that I have. The second problem is is the staff put this staff report without me seeing it or anyone 00:24:06
else seeing it or even verifying what was in there. The second thing is, is if it meets fire. 00:24:12
Fire department pavement with. 00:24:18
It's the exact same pavement with in front of the fire station and the road leaving the fire station. 00:24:20
And I don't think the Fire Marshall was. 00:24:25
I asked about that. 00:24:28
David Kyle, do you have that information now about the lawsuit and the process of how much it would cost? 00:24:32
And the time that it would take. 00:24:38
I think it's really relevant because we put in here in the staff that it costs $0.00. 00:24:40
Am I good? Yeah, you're good. OK. 00:24:45
Because I'm going to go line by line to get my integrity back. 00:24:48
Here, though, so I don't know why that would be. Well, I just want my integrity back because everybody comes in here. I'm saying, 00:24:51
hey, this is going to cost $350,000. 00:24:55
On the three people that I called, they asked. 00:24:59
How much blacktop would be involved? How much sidewalk would be involved in? Every single portion goes smaller so the project 00:25:02
would save money. 00:25:06
Also, when we get right down to it. 00:25:10
The If we do follow the plant plan the city proposes, we would have to eminent domain. 00:25:12
A piece of land I use, How about going around it? 00:25:17
That's fine, but if we follow the standard all the way through. 00:25:19
We'll be doing eminent domain in that piece and that will take us a couple of couple of years or more. Let me let me just. 00:25:23
Let me just back up real quick. 00:25:28
The reason why I said that the lawsuits not relevant. 00:25:29
Is if you want a mayor. 00:25:32
That's going to start eminent. 00:25:35
Domain in people's land. 00:25:37
I'm not that guy. 00:25:38
That's just where it's not going to do it like. 00:25:40
Y'all come? Wait, I'm just talking. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. 00:25:43
Domain land over a. 00:25:46
Trail so. 00:25:47
And I think that we're pretty aligned in that, I mean. 00:25:49
None of us have. 00:25:52
That desire. So that's that's why I said that, that the lawsuits are relevant because it's like. 00:25:53
We're just not going to. I'm just not going to go there. 00:25:58
Like that's just not. 00:26:01
Jesse, about that guy? 00:26:02
On my phone on. 00:26:04
Jesse put it well over $100,000 and our staff put down that it would cost 0. 00:26:06
He they also said that the additional cost designs would be 30,000. That was 100 and 1500. 00:26:12
Every contractor we contacted. 00:26:19
Asked the size of both plans and all three plans and they said that the smallest plan would be the cheapest plan. 00:26:21
So this would save taxpayer dollars? 00:26:27
More money. 00:26:30
And so I'm really disappointed in the way that this went out. 00:26:32
And I'm not going to go through it, but this is the last thing I'll say. 00:26:36
I stood up when nobody stood up when people were traveling the world. 00:26:47
And it I had to go after Steph. 00:26:52
When I had to go and say why is this car here in Disneyland? 00:26:55
Or in. 00:26:59
Vegas. 00:27:01
Why is there a? 00:27:03
A Moab. 00:27:04
Expenditure at a bar for $1800. 00:27:05
Why is there this bank loan? 00:27:09
I'm excited for the time when law enforcement comes in here. 00:27:13
And tells you guys. 00:27:16
That I was the only person that stood up. 00:27:18
Awesome. 00:27:23
Thank you. 00:27:24
So let's start council, let's let's start chatting about this. I want to hear where everybody's at. 00:27:25
Should I start my left? Let's go. Start my left here, Parker, you want to? 00:27:30
Where you at? 00:27:34
Yeah, I have absolutely 0 willingness to eminent domain anything. 00:27:35
Like you said, I think everybody's in agreements with that. I'm also. 00:27:40
Not keen on doing things that raises the burden on taxpayers, especially as I am still. 00:27:43
Trying to make another $1,000,000 in cuts to the cities internal spending over the course of the next year or so. 00:27:50
So it's a big ask. 00:27:57
When you look at, you know. 00:27:59
30% of this potentially as it's being quoted by staff right now. Now I would love to get some additional. 00:28:01
Opinion, maybe insight into what the actual costs as they breakdown are where there could be cost saving efforts. 00:28:07
Because. 00:28:14
I shared the. 00:28:15
Theory that if you're using less material on less land, there's potentially some cost saving benefit, but. 00:28:17
I also AM. 00:28:23
Not keen on adding. 00:28:25
If we don't have to add when it comes to the redesign, the engineering, that kind of stuff. 00:28:28
So the contractors I spoke with. 00:28:32
Sean included. 00:28:35
So that they could maybe turn around in a two week period to be able to get a plan together to be able to execute and I don't know 00:28:36
how long it takes to do the RFP from staff. 00:28:40
But. 00:28:45
They could have those numbers before the vote even. 00:28:46
Took place. 00:28:48
And that would clear my name because that. 00:28:49
$380,000. 00:28:52
More expensive and then the others don't cost on a smaller plan. 00:28:53
I'm excited for the numbers. 00:28:57
OK, awesome chick of wood. 00:29:01
Yeah, I know. I. 00:29:03
Echo, everyone says, I don't think it's in our interest to get in any litigation over. 00:29:04
Emnito meaning any property and if that's the case, I think we should start making plans that require us to. 00:29:08
Do that. 00:29:14
I was there at the meeting of Jacob Holder. I thought was pretty well. 00:29:15
With staff and I think that the best course forward is continuing to. 00:29:18
Talk and see if we can get to a place where there's. 00:29:22
All parties are in agreement moving. 00:29:25
Forward, OK. 00:29:26
Awesome. 00:29:28
David Luray. 00:29:29
Yeah, Jake, I texted you a copy of that that could you. 00:29:30
Pop it up on your screen so we can hold on just a second. 00:29:35
Can we add that Robin as well to the? 00:29:38
I'm not here, Yeah. 00:29:42
That the graphic I sent you create. We had that. 00:29:46
Yeah, OK. 00:29:49
So anyway, I've taken. 00:29:50
A graphic that was included with the. 00:29:53
With a packet with. 00:29:56
Today's agenda. 00:29:58
And I went through and I. 00:29:59
I looked at the. 00:30:01
At the road on the east side of that corner. 00:30:02
Which has been functioning. 00:30:04
Really well for the last 15 years or so and and. 00:30:06
And I looked at it and. 00:30:09
Compared it to the. 00:30:11
OK, the comparison on the other side using the cities. 00:30:12
The city says is. 00:30:15
Councilman Holdaway's concept. 00:30:17
And having talked with him several times about this and. 00:30:19
Walked the land. I can tell you that wasn't his concept. It's been misrepresented here. 00:30:23
And so I've tried to indicate what the concept really was for this graphic. Get it up there, but anyway, we've. 00:30:27
Well, I propose is that we take the the 11. 00:30:35
The current on the east side we restricted a little bit, so instead of being 11. 00:30:37
Foot wide lanes There are 12 foot wide lanes. 00:30:41
And then? 00:30:44
And then the concept calls for a three foot. 00:30:45
Strip for. 00:30:48
What you call embolus, What you call bolsters. Bollards. Bollards. Sorry, bollards. 00:30:50
And then then 25 foot wide cycle tracks. 00:30:55
And then? 00:30:58
A trail. A six foot wide trail. 00:31:00
As a six rate I forget as anyway so. 00:31:02
Whatever the trail is there now, that's what we and that's and that's a pretty nice Rd. 00:31:05
Male profile, it's been working well. People are happy with it now. We were making some adjustments to it. We're actually taking 00:31:09
the bicycle lines lanes around each side of the road and putting it on one side now so that they'll be able to link up very well 00:31:14
with with the with the park, which is further to the east. 00:31:19
And then also connect to what was supposed to be a bicycle Blvd. Eventually on Hallway Rd. 00:31:25
So that those bicycle lanes will be will be, right? 00:31:30
Properly placed to do that. 00:31:34
Also. 00:31:36
On the. 00:31:38
On the West side, over there on the left side. 00:31:39
There is the new road. 00:31:41
And, and we propose there again, 12 foot wide lanes, which is I guess the new standard calls for that. And that would, that's what 00:31:43
it would take. I, I, I think that would be a wise thing to do. 00:31:47
Because it's going to be a collector router or whatever it's called. And we expect that the fire truck that's needed to travel 00:31:52
this road several times a week, whatever. 00:31:56
As we'll make sure it can do that easily. 00:32:00
And then there's supposed to be a 10 foot wide cycle track. They want it raised over here and I don't mind if it's raised or 00:32:02
street level. 00:32:05
And then the sidewalk of the same dimensions as the sidewalk on the. 00:32:08
He sighed. And so this this configuration continues. The figuration has been successful. 00:32:13
For. 00:32:19
For years and it doesn't take any more property from anybody else, does not require we condemn any property or do the public 00:32:19
domain. 00:32:23
And it would not seem to me that would be it would be a huge engineering expense as we're probably keeping the pipes in the same 00:32:27
place they would have been otherwise. 00:32:31
So I don't, I don't see this to be much expense for the city. 00:32:36
And it's a great compromise and I I really commend Councilman Holdaway's work to get it to this point. 00:32:39
You know, I, I'm thankful that you. 00:32:45
You know, I tried to push staff to get it to be. 00:32:47
Exact and we ran with it. But yeah, these have the the. 00:32:50
Little adjustments to make it a little bit better. The one thing that I would just say, and I know there's a lot of emotion for me 00:32:54
because. 00:32:57
You know. 00:33:01
To have something. 00:33:02
Hidden in December to this new standard that. 00:33:03
Didn't know cities ever done. 00:33:06
With knowing from the previous. 00:33:09
Administration. 00:33:11
This is the last segment to stick it to me. It really bothers me and it really bought the putt like. 00:33:13
The social media stuff it it really does. 00:33:18
Because. 00:33:21
The the money of like, hey, this plan costs more. It's just. 00:33:22
Garbage so. 00:33:26
The last thing though, that I would say is. 00:33:28
Go talk to my dad. 00:33:30
My dad is the only the first person in Vineyard City. 00:33:32
Across the Lakeshore, that came and said. 00:33:36
I'm going to donate 1/4 mile. 00:33:38
Of path. 00:33:41
Not being funded for it. 00:33:42
For Wakara, away. 00:33:44
When others didn't. 00:33:46
When my father stood forth and did the lowest density on Sleepy Ridge Golf Course. 00:33:47
And donated more open space than anyone else in the city. 00:33:52
And then other developments went higher standards higher, with less green space. 00:33:56
You know what he did hate that the standard was different. 00:34:01
It bothered him because he kept his word. 00:34:04
And so now to have his name thrown out now. 00:34:07
Where he goes, you guys are holding me to a standard that nobody else does. I'm going to dig in. 00:34:10
And so it's not asking for. 00:34:15
Special treatment. 00:34:17
It's asking for this is right in the middle of what everyone else is being treated to the east of him. 00:34:19
And the last thing is. 00:34:24
I have no financial gain. 00:34:27
I don't gain anything but. 00:34:29
We do get to control. 00:34:31
How it is designed beautifully because we're every other neighborhood has had that right to do that that way. 00:34:33
Nobody else's. 00:34:39
Dictated how it's. 00:34:40
Designed. 00:34:41
So awesome. Ezra, were you at on this? 00:34:42
Well, you brought up saving costs being the number one priority, so I proposed a budget. 00:34:47
Couple of weeks ago. 00:34:52
That would significantly reduce costs. 00:34:53
Overall for the city. 00:34:56
If we want to talk about cost savings, I'd love to revisit that. 00:34:58
Obviously these. 00:35:01
In the staff report we're talking about. 00:35:03
Additional costs and reconstruction so. 00:35:06
I was wondering if maybe we could hear from staff on those. I mean, they all say approximately nobody's saying that. 00:35:08
This is the definitive cause, but do we have the RFP bids? 00:35:14
That came together. And no, these are just estimates from staff. Yeah. So this would be what staff can roughly approximate. 00:35:17
Given the amount of time that they've had to look through this, but. 00:35:24
I mean, obviously. 00:35:28
Not changing anything. 00:35:29
We're saved. It looks like none of these could be constructed until. 00:35:32
2027 on the timeline. 00:35:35
The the contractors we worked with so they could do the redesign in seven to 10 days. 00:35:38
And we're talking about time as. 00:35:44
And in general. 00:35:46
So I'd love to. 00:35:47
I mean, we've got hard costs and we've got soft costs as well, so. 00:35:48
We should consider both of those. 00:35:52
Because the more time we spend. 00:35:54
Like reviewing this and first of all this, this planet here. 00:35:56
Where we've got the curb in two different spots. 00:36:00
I don't think that's a good idea. 00:36:02
We should have the curb. 00:36:04
At the same spot. Otherwise you have people coming to the intersection of different ways. That's been a huge problem. 00:36:05
On this road already. 00:36:10
And other areas where we have different curbs from east to West. 00:36:11
I just don't think that makes any sense whatsoever. We went out this morning and I can show you over 20 different locations 00:36:15
throughout the city where the curbs do not line because. 00:36:20
Every single time you go to the 15 different sections. 00:36:24
The curbs. 00:36:28
Don't align. 00:36:29
There's 15 different roads on all those. Those are all. 00:36:29
Right, that's what I'm saying is like. 00:36:32
Like everyone. 00:36:34
Goes it's like you want to save money. We should have had a plan 20 years ago to have a standard and it would have been amazing 00:36:35
and I agree. 00:36:38
We got to do what we can on the last. 00:36:42
On the last segment, let's. 00:36:44
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to say just because things were wrong in the past, we should just continue that. 00:36:45
Right. So we're not building another Collector Rd. 00:36:50
What was that? Where are we building another collector Rd. through residential property? 00:36:53
Well, I mean if you just look at this one like. 00:36:58
This is. 00:37:00
Where we're adding. 00:37:01
Pretty significant development to. 00:37:03
East West, we've already gone through our transportation master plan process. 00:37:05
We have all the road networks on there. There's. 00:37:09
Pretty extensive public process where people said we want. 00:37:11
To make sure that we're planning out multi and and there are safety plans for the Clegg development hit and exceeded it above and 00:37:14
beyond and it's not. 00:37:18
We're not changing the. 00:37:23
The other three plans, it's still the 12 lane Rd. of traffic so. 00:37:24
That's the other problem outline. It's like. 00:37:28
All four plans. 00:37:30
The traffic doesn't stay the same, is no different. 00:37:31
And the sidewalks and, and so it's, it's all consistent. 00:37:35
So there's no like. 00:37:39
Online of going like we're going to have some skinny Rd. that's going to go less traffic. It's like there's no difference between 00:37:41
the four plans. 00:37:44
Well, the curb and gutter right there is. It's the curb and gutter we're talking about the traffic that goes through the entire 00:37:48
portial. 00:37:50
I want to make sure the entire roadway. 00:37:53
Is consistent having a curve that. 00:37:55
Smaller going. 00:37:58
East and West on an intersection to me is a bad idea. So. 00:38:00
So that said, I want to can I add a thought or an interjection and it's just to play devil's advocate with the logic and the 00:38:03
thought experiment here. Go ahead, Parker. 00:38:07
Even with the currently. 00:38:11
Approved plan. 00:38:13
Which is. 00:38:16
The closest plan to, I think, what David Larae you had presented on. 00:38:17
Three months ago that we had general consensus with. 00:38:21
Even if you follow that. 00:38:25
There's not a match between the East. 00:38:27
Of Holdaway Rd. 00:38:32
And the West of. 00:38:33
Keith Holdaways property because the road widths are already built and they're not the same. 00:38:35
So there is still. 00:38:40
A shrinking and a lack of consistency there that would either require eminent domain. 00:38:42
On. 00:38:47
Other homes, Properties. 00:38:48
Or you have to essentially concede. 00:38:50
That there is a shrinkage. 00:38:53
And that's what happens on every Rd. is they just randomly. So let me go back to my opinion. 00:38:56
So I'm saying. 00:39:01
If we're going to change the design, which. 00:39:03
I'm actually. 00:39:05
Fine eating additional costs if it's just going to put this matter to rest. 00:39:07
That we should not do. 00:39:11
The sidewalk or whatever that. 00:39:14
That trail that's being proposed, where the curb comes out. 00:39:16
That we should go with. 00:39:18
One of the. 00:39:20
Consistent roadway with. 00:39:22
Ideas. 00:39:24
But. 00:39:25
We should, I mean, if you guys really want to, if you guys want to go back to the compromise and bring, you know, I told staff 00:39:26
this to the table. 00:39:30
You know, umm. 00:39:33
We burn bridges and and bringing people together. 00:39:34
And I know me and the mayor have talked to. 00:39:38
The different parties. This isn't just my dad. 00:39:41
It's we're talking about 3 different jurisdictions of three different mayors making three different promises and having three 00:39:43
different design standards. 00:39:47
And then the last person getting thrown this and so it's like. 00:39:51
I mean. 00:39:57
We're wasting more per hour. I think we're we. 00:39:58
Charging 4 or $500.00 an hour just for us talking. 00:40:01
And we've done this for five. 00:40:04
Meetings in a row. 00:40:06
So the. 00:40:08
The for the public record, we're not actually paid hourly. No, not our. I'm just saying, yeah, the more we toss and lower our 00:40:10
hours raising 30, this person that's 20, it's like it's ridiculous how much, you know, just the staff meetings in order to get to 00:40:15
this point, you know, so. 00:40:20
But but in working with the contractors to go through and do that. 00:40:25
Like. 00:40:29
Everyone of them. 00:40:30
Their heart up for. 00:40:31
For work right now. 00:40:32
Even the ones that came out earlier. 00:40:34
It's about just doing the RFP real quick. 00:40:36
I have a full confidence that this can be put in before October. 00:40:39
Even at the having Sean do the RFP for 1500 and having it stamped and done. 00:40:43
And the contractors to be able to. 00:40:48
To whip it in there's there's enough workout there to get done. 00:40:50
So did you have more comments, Ezra? 00:40:53
Yes, so. 00:40:57
So can we pull up the map of what? 00:40:59
What? 00:41:03
You know, we're talking about as far as making things consistent. 00:41:04
Because I also forums current I don't like the cycle track idea, I'll also share that agree. Thank having the. 00:41:07
Bike lanes on either side of the road consistent with the traffic makes a lot more sense everywhere that I know of in the county 00:41:13
where they've tried a cycle track. 00:41:17
Has if you guys want to go back and. 00:41:21
Do the negotiation. I'm more than welcome to blow it up and go do it. 00:41:24
Like for what? 00:41:29
Like. 00:41:31
If you guys. 00:41:31
Are choosing like. 00:41:32
The lane on this side or the right side? 00:41:34
Let's just match the existing traffic pattern. 00:41:37
Right. But in meeting with Orem and me and Sean were there. 00:41:40
In October. 00:41:43
And that's what's so frustrating about staff is. 00:41:45
In September, October we had two massive traffic problems where on 600 N. 00:41:47
Out of the blue, Marty and Sarah wanted to shrink down the road to this exact same size Rd. 00:41:54
And Karen will remember it where they just put parking. 00:42:00
And staff moved heaven and earth in five days. They did a study and they went and moved it and they got it approved. Let's. 00:42:03
Just wanna make sure. And then the second thing, hold on mayor on the on this specific section because this applies. 00:42:08
Orum. Hey, dude. 00:42:14
And they repainted it. 00:42:15
They repainted between the park and the other because the line was there and Sean was ****** *** about it. 00:42:17
His entire neighborhood came to me and said we don't like the repainting. 00:42:22
And. 00:42:26
It didn't go through planning, it didn't go through master planning, it didn't go through anything and the seam went and painted 00:42:27
it. 00:42:29
We threw Orem under the bus when we got on a Zoom with Oram and Oram said. 00:42:32
We will design it however you want. 00:42:36
And that's when. 00:42:38
Nate Riley came in and said look. 00:42:39
This is what we were promised back. 00:42:41
Going uh. 00:42:43
Many different. 00:42:44
And I'm going to get reelected on this because this is how many people in this neighborhood wanted that done. God. 00:42:45
Let's let's. 00:42:50
Keep the scope of the conversation. Just wanted to make sure there's there's a lot of issues with four South. 00:42:51
Heaven knows, but let's just try to keep this go to kind of yeah, I just down. 00:42:56
Just want to hold the way Rd. West or will change it to whatever the scope yeah they. 00:43:02
Both bike paths on the north. 00:43:07
We've just spoken with them. That was in December of last year. 00:43:08
OK, Council, what direction? 00:43:12
Should we give to staff on this issue? 00:43:15
I'd like to hear from staff what their thoughts are and. 00:43:17
Where some of these estimates came through? 00:43:20
And then also we have. 00:43:23
Development agreement like that. 00:43:25
That's the biggest thing. This is all assuming that. 00:43:26
Our developers will agree to changes to the development agreement which. 00:43:29
There were no specs in the development agreement on this specific section. It would just say that it would be futurely built. 00:43:33
Unless did they just recently sign something? 00:43:39
That you would do it. 00:43:43
So that's another thing where. 00:43:46
When we're talking about. 00:43:48
Yeah. 00:43:50
To do our. 00:43:53
Yeah, so they're good to go. 00:43:54
No, I'm saying you would the development agreement agree. 00:43:56
Have to be amended. 00:43:59
Yeah, to change, but we own the property. So you building a skinnier Rd. does it, It doesn't dictate the size of Rd. in the 00:44:00
development. We already read that. 00:44:04
Jamie, Jesse already read through. 00:44:07
OK. 00:44:15
This is honesty, I'm just the city may be better if the if they spoke into the microphone. 00:44:16
Come on. Yeah, Come on, Brian. 00:44:22
You're saying on your part, no, they don't know. 00:44:27
The the city owns the right of way on my property and keys. 00:44:29
Right, and the other property. 00:44:32
You've already built the road. 00:44:34
To specifications. 00:44:35
I know. But the development, how would you control what was built on? I'm not trying to control anything, Jake. I'm not trying to 00:44:37
control. Yeah, but it wouldn't be reoffering you offering. 00:44:41
A point of view is that. 00:44:45
The development agreement outlines what that right of way is supposed to be, and the city agreed to the right of way being. 00:44:46
What it was going to be. 00:44:53
And so. 00:44:55
To go back and change what the city, what it's going to be, I mean from a developer's purpose. 00:44:55
Perspective like. 00:44:59
We built. 00:45:00
And you know, my opinion of 4 S, it was probably oversized from the beginning, but it was done. It was that way. We're wider than 00:45:02
even what? 00:45:05
Is in front of your property if you know we go to you and but that's but that's but that ship has sailed. It's done and so for for 00:45:08
us. 00:45:12
Like getting people into our development right now is a disaster. 00:45:16
Like they can't. 00:45:19
They have to come over a viaduct, come down Center St. find their way on Main Street. We've been focused on getting this road in 00:45:20
and now you come in and it's a safety concern because. 00:45:25
We've got. 00:45:30
Unfinished Rd. on one side of the road because we can't complete the right of way as it was. As discussed, we got to solve the 00:45:30
problem, but necking it down to. 00:45:35
220 to 24 feet. 00:45:39
Going into a massive roundabout in a beautiful 4 S doesn't make any sense from our perspective from a remarkable committed. We got 00:45:41
into your house and your model home and you said you agreed with the width of the road and and David Larae was there right when we 00:45:47
spoke with you and you agreed to the width of the road. How? 00:45:52
We talked to you about going down to skinning it down to make it safer where our houses are. I'm not going to have, I'm not gonna 00:45:57
have anybody put words into what I said or didn't say. I'm giving you, I'm answering your question. Let him answer the question, 00:46:02
which was the development, which was the development agreement. 00:46:08
Has specific. 00:46:13
Widths and sizes of what this? 00:46:15
Right of way should be. 00:46:17
And it would need to be amended if it's going to be changed. 00:46:18
Could you pull up? 00:46:21
Could you pull up the county parcel map? 00:46:23
To show. 00:46:25
I mean, there's a potential. 00:46:26
Solution to this whole problem if you're willing to look at it I'm willing to look at it, but I just want to make clear that when 00:46:28
the whole. 00:46:31
A referendum on your property. 00:46:37
Came through, thousands of people signed it. The number one thing you said was we will do what the people want done. 00:46:39
Do you remember? 00:46:46
You said that in an open meeting, Yeah. 00:46:47
Jake let's let's no, I'm saying on the road I'm not on because they were so concerned, right question. What I'm saying is that 00:46:50
Jake. 00:46:53
These people came and said, let Ryan answer the question, amount of traffic and. 00:46:57
And all of the people on this road said. 00:47:01
No, you're laughing, but Sean's here in the meeting about who ran. They don't even know who Sean is. I know, but running the 00:47:03
referendum about the safety of this road was critical to those citizens. So I'm just holding you to so because you came into open 00:47:08
meeting and said I haven't come at you on anything. I'm not sure. But you came into open meeting and said we will make the road 00:47:13
according to let Ryan talk, bro. 00:47:18
This is OK. 00:47:24
Or just answering your question, what was a development agreement in place? And if there's a, there's a potential solution that I 00:47:26
could offer if you pull up the map and I'll and I'll. 00:47:30
And I'll suggest something. 00:47:34
That could, but I can't do it because no one's going to understand what's being said if you have the county parcel map. 00:47:35
Pull it up and put it on the screen. 00:47:41
I'm all about safety. I think safety ought to be the biggest concern here, but for South. 00:47:49
When you when you put. 00:47:53
Cycle track lanes on the same side of the road going West with the sun setting. 00:47:55
You're going to people are going to get killed riding their bikes going that direction. I think that's a dumb idea in my opinion. 00:47:59
And not having curb alignment is is interesting as well. 00:48:04
Pull down on Keith's property. 00:48:09
So in my experience as a developer, anytime you can get a deeper lot instead of a wider narrower lot. 00:48:12
Is more valuable. 00:48:17
Because you have depth, you provide a front yard and a backyard. 00:48:19
We would be willing. 00:48:23
To give Keith. 00:48:25
However much property he would like. 00:48:26
North of his property, swap the land. 00:48:29
Its cost neutral to everybody. 00:48:32
Give him 20 feet on that side, it's a great idea and that makes that lot deeper for him. 00:48:35
And he gives up 400 square feet. We give him a. 00:48:40
2000 square feet on that side, that makes that lot in the future for him more valuable because. 00:48:42
That home at some point. 00:48:48
Probably is going to get torn down. 00:48:49
And now he can put a nice home that has a backyard and depth on it there and potentially that. 00:48:51
Solves the value property for Keith. I don't know if it's a value property or not value. 00:48:56
So what's it about? 00:49:02
That shatter on all the way home, that's the foundational home of Vineyard. 00:49:04
He's not going to tear that down. 00:49:08
My argument still is, it still provides additional value. Just an idea. I'm just tossing it out as an idea. I don't know what 00:49:09
everybody's. 00:49:13
Like motivations are here, so we brought down. 00:49:16
And agree to disagree. We brought Bike Walk Provo down to walk the road. 00:49:20
And they themselves said that you have two different cyclists. 00:49:25
You have a. 00:49:28
A fast cyclist, that. 00:49:29
Right on the road and they go just the speed limit and you shouldn't be concerned about that. What you should be concerned about 00:49:32
in this area. 00:49:35
Is elementary, but drive elementary bikers. 00:49:38
That are going to and from the park. 00:49:41
And school down into your development and they advise. 00:49:44
Trying to change. You did the research on it and they and they came down. I'm just giving you, I'm just giving you my opinion, 00:49:50
Aaron came and said. 00:49:52
Hey, you have them crossing into the park on that? 00:49:55
On that path, keep the bike path consistent. 00:49:58
I would, I would protect. 00:50:01
Children. 00:50:03
Because you're getting hundreds of them. 00:50:04
And you're not getting any biker, you're getting 5 to 6 a day on the. 00:50:06
The speed bike, but they write they drive on the road anyway. 00:50:09
And so prioritizing children was the I'm just saying about children walking on a sidewalk with the curb and gutters protection 00:50:12
instead of riding bikes on the asphalt in the same direction of a vehicle. 00:50:17
They did recommend, I would have, I would not let my children do that, but they they did recommend putting a small gutter like 00:50:22
they like doing a raised thing here. And we, we raised that with staff, but from a. 00:50:27
From a cost perspective, something that I don't understand, is all the work that you're doing wet E, is that already budgeted or 00:50:33
are you? 00:50:36
Is that already cost that you're already? 00:50:39
Going to plan on doing regardless because if you match the right of way on the West you don't have to do bollards and a curb and 00:50:41
add bike lane. No, we strike the whole Rd. We're not spending more money is it not? 00:50:46
No, because on the east all we are is adding ballards and repainting all you are is adding ballards is a lot you're you're re 00:50:52
striping the road which is. 00:50:56
Orem is willing to pay for that, right? And you're adding Ballard and Ballers are 19 to $21.00 a piece? 00:51:00
Depending on and and I'm all over on projects and they're not and they're talking about dollars apiece. It's thousands of dollars. 00:51:07
And you can, I think it's between $2000 and $3000 and the neighborhood offered to. 00:51:14
Combined pay forum. We're talking. 00:51:19
Pennies. Great. 00:51:21
I'm really glad that we're having this debate though, because like. 00:51:22
Every time I get thrown something that it's good thing to question it, but sometimes it'll go back to staff and it'll be like 00:51:25
bollards. Do you know they threw us out a cost of $100,000? 00:51:30
Jake, let's again, let's not get off into the. 00:51:35
Bollard weed here. 00:51:38
So thank you, Ryan. 00:51:39
Thanks, Ryan. 00:51:42
Naseem. 00:51:44
Brian. 00:51:47
Time. I'm going to turn the time over to NASIM. 00:51:51
Answer the questions about cost. 00:51:54
As for what? What questions did you have? 00:52:04
Food staff. 00:52:06
I just how you guys got to the cost approximations and? 00:52:10
What your professional opinion on what? 00:52:16
We should do. 00:52:18
Cool. So Nassim Gandora by the works director. So I just want to start off sorry before I want to apologize, I don't. 00:52:21
Think berating stuff. 00:52:27
From the dais is ever a good idea. 00:52:28
So, umm. 00:52:30
That was not cool. 00:52:32
I'll just put that on the record. 00:52:33
I appreciate that and I think staff, us and staff appreciates that. So just wanted to go on the record that. 00:52:35
Excuse me. So when we put these cost estimates together, we do. We put these cost estimates together based on planning concepts. 00:52:44
Trying to keep in mind. 00:52:51
The cost and time efforts that would go into full complete designs. 00:52:53
Just to get to a, excuse me, just to get to be able to do, to be able to do a. 00:52:57
A what they call engineer cost breakdown. 00:53:02
Or a. 00:53:05
I mean those people use Ars means say more. 00:53:07
Step by step cost breakdown. So we do a lot of. 00:53:10
Conceptual planning estimates. 00:53:12
In order to be able to provide. 00:53:15
Council, the information. 00:53:17
The information in order for them to make the educate decisions on that. So I really want to caveat with that. 00:53:20
On that by number means, was any of these costs? 00:53:27
To be representative is. 00:53:30
Hard, fast costs. 00:53:31
And of course, as we go through this, we do rely on consultants and contractors and so forth to provide those costs to us as well. 00:53:33
So the. 00:53:41
For one to address the question in regards to the design cost, we spoke with the design engineer, the Kim Foster with Ave. 00:53:43
Consultants in regards to. 00:53:48
The scope of work that would be required to make changes based on the. 00:53:53
Excuse me, based on the alternatives that were being presented. 00:53:59
And based on the based on. 00:54:02
There that that design engineers feedback in regards to what the amount of work that would be required to do that. 00:54:06
We put that into the cost being about. 00:54:11
Her words and like I put anything that's not that she didn't tell me in her words, she told me about $24,000. 00:54:15
Of work innocence because. 00:54:22
That would have the. 00:54:24
Proposed concept design. 00:54:26
Impacted drainage specifically. 00:54:28
And the drainage was and the drainage from. 00:54:31
Not just. 00:54:35
That small section, but the drainage all the way to the roundabout and maybe even a little bit further. 00:54:36
So in essence. 00:54:41
The feedback was that. 00:54:43
About $24,000 maybe be able to keep the surveying information. 00:54:46
On that and then going through and going through that information. So we budget about $30,000 to be a little bit safer on that. 00:54:50
And then I do want caveat that prior to this meeting. 00:54:58
Also that Councilmember Mccumber did ask for it more additional detail when it comes to cost because. 00:55:02
In essence specifically. 00:55:07
A representation that there was going to be 0 cost to a particular alternative was not meant to be construed as that is. 00:55:09
That was a baseline cost. 00:55:17
Of what was budgeted in any additional cost. 00:55:18
Whether it's positive or minus was what we were expecting, so I did provide Councilmember Mccumber an updated cost table. 00:55:21
That has the approximate cost to build this segment. 00:55:29
And then? 00:55:32
The additional. 00:55:33
Cost, whether it's positive or negative next to each. 00:55:34
Next to each option as well. 00:55:38
On that. 00:55:41
He did also ask about. 00:55:42
And I appreciate these questions because again, these questions help us fine tune our costs. 00:55:44
About what the cost separate from? 00:55:49
Other types of analysis would have to be done, even questioning why we would have to do it analysis if the gross. 00:55:52
Staying at 2 lane roads. 00:55:59
Currently. 00:56:01
On all the designs and the answer to that. 00:56:02
I'll be brief about is that the Roe classification is a collector Rd. 00:56:05
And we recognize that. 00:56:09
Currently that we would like to have it as A2 lane Rd. with bikes but as the 2050 transportation master plan. 00:56:12
Projected egg. 00:56:19
About this being collector Rd. not the last collector Rd. that we would have to build. We would have to build 12 under N We would 00:56:20
have to build 400 N. 00:56:23
Mill Road Ext. 00:56:26
Cross my fingers in 2028. 00:56:29
Would have to be built as well, so. 00:56:32
The efforts of changing this to a three. 00:56:34
Three Lane Rd. 00:56:38
In the future would be. 00:56:39
A restriction project. 00:56:42
So on that and as much as you know, I like to. 00:56:44
Not restripe things and work with the partners. 00:56:49
Something like this would just be restriving. 00:56:51
On that so the hence why. 00:56:53
The railway section itself. 00:56:55
Was. 00:56:58
We put down 0 cost for the transportation master plan updates and so forth because we would have to put that into consideration. 00:57:01
The additional cost for rework. 00:57:07
We put in there. We estimated that for the alignment on that from what the. 00:57:10
The developer Brian Bybee. 00:57:15
Had done on the West side. 00:57:17
On the weather alignment changing the making a significant change and we did confirm with the design engineer they're making that 00:57:20
significant change. 00:57:23
For the proposed concept. 00:57:27
Would require a realignment of the existing roadway that was. 00:57:30
Currently built by Alka. 00:57:33
In order to. 00:57:36
Make sure that the curvatures of the road are not sharp. 00:57:38
We're putting safety in mind. 00:57:41
That being said, even and playing devil's advocate, betting it. 00:57:45
With multiple other engineers. 00:57:49
I'll point to him. 00:57:52
We estimate that we would have to go back to. 00:57:53
The roundabout section. 00:57:57
So in essence, having to. 00:57:58
Build about 200 linear feet of roadway that's currently built. We did add some costs like $50,000. 00:58:01
So $200,000 roughly. 00:58:07
Based on. 00:58:09
A cost estimate that we received in April 2026. 00:58:11
For the segment. 00:58:15
Of. 00:58:17
For in itself that we're obligated to do and we. 00:58:19
Utilize that cost. 00:58:22
In order to determine what the rework. 00:58:23
Cost would be. 00:58:26
Adding about $50,000 for demolition work, Which? 00:58:27
Maybe a little bit too low. 00:58:29
But we do have great public works people who love to. 00:58:31
Use of equipment and tear things apart. 00:58:34
Moving forward. 00:58:39
I'm not gonna go through every scenario this day. 00:58:41
Just over the cavalries. 00:58:43
On the utility relocation, existing sewer and water. 00:58:45
The water was minimal, in fact I think it was irrigation line about. 00:58:48
That was done in order to utilize the Orem City reuse. 00:58:52
Wine that we're planning on bringing it over. 00:58:56
But. 00:58:59
Bigger cost on that was a sewer line. 00:59:00
That the city invested money on that. 00:59:02
Again, it was. 00:59:05
Through Cadence Homes. 00:59:06
Agreement that we have as through a better rent. 00:59:08
To extend the sewer line to the Keith hole. 00:59:10
Just South of the Keith Holloway property in order to get them on sewer. 00:59:13
We estimate that. 00:59:16
With a new alignment we would have to. 00:59:17
Remove and. 00:59:21
Reinstall about 100 linear feet. 00:59:22
Correct. About 100 liter feet of sewer line as well as manholes. 00:59:25
Now wait a second. You're moving 100 feet. I know exactly where that is. What are you saying? 00:59:29
100 feet. Yes, Sir. 00:59:34
Unrelenting feed. 00:59:36
Exactly. But you on all four plans you have to do the same. 00:59:37
We're not really, because those are installed. 00:59:40
That's currently installed. 00:59:43
So we wouldn't be relocating. You're going from the same point of reference on all four. 00:59:44
Maybe I don't understand you, Sir. 00:59:49
I guess the point of reference of where the sewer starts is not. It's not, it's already installed. 00:59:51
We're going to say, Parker, I was going to ask, why does changing the surface require a change of the? 00:59:57
Sewer, you want to elaborate on that powder? 01:00:03
So the the. 01:00:06
I'm sorry. 01:00:10
The manhole's already put in. 01:00:15
Sorry we didn't invest in longer cables. 01:00:20
It wasn't in the budget. 01:00:23
So we we installed a sewer line, as Naseem said, with the narrower amount of payment. 01:00:24
The the manhole that was just installed would be in the curb and gutter which is not not a good idea. So then just adjust it to 01:00:30
go. 01:00:34
Right. But that depends on when you cut it. I was out there yesterday. That's not an additional cost because that's the same 01:00:39
point. And this is the thing that bothers me is like. 01:00:43
When we talk about. 01:00:47
Catching you guys. 01:00:49
Hey, dude. 01:00:52
Dude, the same financial crap. 01:00:52
Let's let. 01:00:55
So hey guys it's hard to hold people accountable but you know you guys laugh but get the only one that gets to talk but get the 01:00:56
but get the 2. 01:01:01
Go through both audits. 01:01:05
But go through both off. 01:01:08
Go through both Jays guys. 01:01:12
Jake letting the same continue. 01:01:13
Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks. SO. 01:01:17
To clarify that to. 01:01:19
Thank you. To kind of reiterate about the planning level of cost estimates, if during the design phase and so forth, we determined 01:01:21
that cost could be. 01:01:26
Lower than theirs could be cost savings. We as staff, we would definitely be taking that opportunity. 01:01:31
I guess if you would like, if Council would like to consider. 01:01:37
The options and removing the sewer line out 100%. 01:01:40
And taken into account that maybe this is done on, you know, costs are adjusted upwards on an as needed basis, I guess that is the 01:01:43
privilege of the Council to do as well. 01:01:47
Hence why we try to break the cost down to. 01:01:52
Classifications to say. 01:01:55
On those type of things in order to this to give Council that as much information as possible upfront. 01:01:57
Again, uh. 01:02:02
Questions like. 01:02:04
Council Member Mccumber. 01:02:04
Yesterday and today. 01:02:06
Helped allow us to kind of fine tune things as well because, you know, we were able to capture. 01:02:08
Cost that we originally did not associate. 01:02:13
Include and then of course. 01:02:15
Fine tune. 01:02:17
There's other costs which were, you know, maybe a little bit more cost savings for other alternatives as well. 01:02:19
So that's in a nutshell. That's how we. 01:02:24
Came down through the costs. 01:02:26
We're happy to. 01:02:27
Move forward in a direction and to get the more finite costs. 01:02:29
However, that does take time. 01:02:32
And efforts in order to do and again based on direction of counsel we're. 01:02:34
Happy with that direction. 01:02:38
Can I ask? 01:02:40
Question Naseem, earlier you were presenting. 01:02:42
I'm curious what? 01:02:46
Constitutes the requirement from the city to make a. 01:02:47
Rode the three lane model and re stripe it. 01:02:51
Is that part of the new design code or is that something that is set in a county or a state code? 01:02:54
Again, it's based on traffic volumes and so when we did our transportation master plan. 01:03:01
Which took about or. 01:03:07
But I think over a year to get done. 01:03:08
Through. 01:03:10
The analysis and presented that. 01:03:12
Council through multiple public hearings. 01:03:15
In essence, we would. 01:03:18
And excuse me, monitor. 01:03:20
How the traffic flow, the transportation master plan, if I'm not mistaken, Patrick, you know it was correct me, but. 01:03:22
2025 and then we also have 2035 and then 2050. I'm not mistaken. 01:03:29
Oh, now, so it would kind of be triggered based on volumes. We would, it's all projection. We would hope that. 01:03:35
You know I. 01:03:40
The plans are. 01:03:42
Align but every. 01:03:44
Every 5, excuse me, every 10 years, the city should be doing a revision. Revisit that the transportation master plan. 01:03:46
In every time sooner we're able to do a traffic flow analysis. 01:03:53
To ensure that there were kind of abiding to that. 01:03:57
Aspects. 01:04:01
The roadway when constructed, regardless which alternative it happens. 01:04:02
Would be we were expected to do pavement preservation within like five to seven years more likely on that. 01:04:07
And of course, prior to doing that. 01:04:13
We would revisit to see if. 01:04:15
Restriping to meet the requirements would be necessary. 01:04:17
And of course, if we're being close to the threshold, then we would just go ahead and trigger. 01:04:21
Every striping all that. Of course we would. 01:04:26
Ensure that we're. 01:04:28
You know, collaborating with our partners, Orem City. 01:04:29
In terms of their side as well and then of course our side and we do have good relate working relationship with the owners city in 01:04:33
terms of striving. 01:04:37
Kettle, thank you. 01:04:40
Thank you. 01:04:42
All righty, Council. 01:04:43
I would just make a motion that we. 01:04:46
Put it out forbid. 01:04:48
Because we have such discrepancy in what the private sector tells us versus what our staff. 01:04:50
And let the open market compete for the redesign. 01:04:54
And also the cost to do it. 01:04:58
There's many people willing to do the work, yeah. 01:05:00
I don't know and they can get the. I don't know if RFP is needed, but I think we could. 01:05:02
Obviously looking tighten up some cost as we have a better information. So I think that that's. 01:05:07
Well taken. Let's do this. 01:05:11
Let's get better costs. 01:05:13
Tighten it up. 01:05:17
I'm interested in having the conversation with Ryan. 01:05:18
And Keith? 01:05:20
I think that that's a good solution. 01:05:22
For for the city. 01:05:24
So let's do this. Let's go. 01:05:26
Let's keep working on this, get some more information and circle back. 01:05:28
To see if we can. 01:05:33
Get this classification. You cool with that Parker? 01:05:34
Yeah, I'd like to. 01:05:36
Maybe scrutinize the cost estimates a little bit and also consult with our legal representation. 01:05:38
OK, Jake, again with that. Yeah, absolutely. OK. 01:05:43
You guys good with that? 01:05:45
OK, they're chatting so. 01:05:47
As we said, yes. 01:05:49
OK, awesome. Well, let's talk about the fun stuff now. 01:05:51
Let's get on to. 01:05:53
Holden, we want to go over. 01:05:55
He's already standing these electrical dirt bikes. 01:05:59
Sorry, Mayor. 01:06:03
Did we agree to get more specific design costs? 01:06:04
On all this stuff, yeah. 01:06:07
Design and the rework and the utility. OK, The thing is that's what we then that's what I told you. 01:06:08
Yes, we're having a sign. No, you're having a side. That's fine. That was that's intense so. 01:06:14
I want to be clear that that allows for. 01:06:19
Private sector contractors to just grab some feedback on it because I actually believe this is. 01:06:22
An extreme cost savings. I called four of them today. 01:06:28
Yeah, and they looked at it and they were like, this is the easiest. 01:06:31
Everyone of them quoted me less than six hours to get it done. 01:06:34
Good. Awesome. 01:06:38
All right. 01:06:39
You asked if I was excited. The answer is no. 01:06:42
Let's talk about dirt bikes. 01:06:45
All right, Rap scallions. He's arresting, I guess, first of all. 01:06:47
My plan was just to go over. 01:06:53
The new laws and some of the things that are going to be changing and talk about the enforcement that we've been doing. 01:06:55
And then potentially some of the ordinances are our local orders need to be changed. 01:07:00
However, I don't know what the intention was for the for this to be on the agenda. If there's questions you have, I'm happy to. 01:07:04
Go through those first or I can go through a few things, then we can do questions out. 01:07:10
Let's go through a few things and let's let's open up for questions. 01:07:13
OK, so recently the state changed the law on electric mobility devices, especially the higher powered ones like the electric 01:07:17
motorcycles, things like that. 01:07:21
They also set forth. 01:07:25
Some changes that happen until the requirement for helmets, a bunch of different law changes that. 01:07:27
Some of them took effect this year, some of them they will take effects next year. 01:07:32
And it's a little bit convoluted if you've ever gotten into. 01:07:37
What the different? 01:07:40
Classifications of E bikes and stuff are. 01:07:41
There's a lot of definitions. 01:07:44
So. 01:07:45
The first type is motor assisted scooters. 01:07:46
These ones are pretty straightforward. We all know what these are. As long as they're going under 20 miles an hour, they call it, 01:07:48
they would classify as this. 01:07:51
They require a. 01:07:55
Basically a bicycle helmet style helmet the new state law does spell out. 01:07:56
Types of helmets to be worn with different types of. 01:08:01
Of devices. 01:08:04
Which I know is a question from the public before on the motor assisted scooters. 01:08:06
They really the helmets and they can't be operated by individuals. 01:08:11
Under 8 on right now it says under 8 on public property, highway path or sidewalk. 01:08:18
One of the things you'll notice as we go through this initially the state outlawed things on. 01:08:24
Public property, highway, path or sidewalk. 01:08:29
Or trails. 01:08:32
In 2027, they're taking that off and they're just simply going to be. 01:08:34
The estate law will simply address highway, so the roadways. 01:08:39
And it'll leave the sidewalks, paths and trails up to the local jurisdiction to decide what they want to do with those. So that's 01:08:42
some of the stuff we'll have to consider. 01:08:46
Motorcycle scooters cannot be operated in a public parking structure or anywhere bicycles are prohibited. 01:08:51
You only can have it many people on them as they're designed for no more than 15 mph. 01:08:57
And any ordinances that we have that relates to bicycles would apply to the scooters as well. 01:09:03
The changes in next year. 01:09:08
It narrows under restriction of eight-year old under 8 year old just to just highway like I mentioned. 01:09:10
Then it spells out 815 on highway. 01:09:15
They have to be under the direct supervision of a parent or guardian. 01:09:19
Or. 01:09:22
Have a new safety certificate that will come. 01:09:23
Come into play next year, the state will is going to put out kind of like they did for the OHV. 01:09:26
Safety certificates that you could go online and get. 01:09:30
There's going to be something similar for that. 01:09:33
To that for these electric devices so and then 16 plus obviously they can operate them without. 01:09:35
Supervision. 01:09:41
Those are the motor assisted scooters. 01:09:42
The next one is electric bicycles. Hey. 01:09:44
Chief Deputy Holden, could I ask you to clarify what a highway is for the public? Because it's not just. 01:09:47
The freeway, not I-15. 01:09:53
That would be a freeway. 01:09:55
Highways, all the roads and vineyards. 01:09:57
So any road, any roadway is what they're. 01:09:59
They're classifying us. Unless it was a private road, private roads would be a little different. 01:10:02
Any public roadway. 01:10:07
So OK. 01:10:08
Freeway is a different standard. Obviously they're not allowed on the. 01:10:09
In fact, they're not allowed anything over it. 01:10:12
I shouldn't say that some of the stuff's not allowed on certain speed limits, but. 01:10:15
Depends on what one it is. 01:10:19
Electric bicycles. 01:10:20
There's three classifications depending on how fast they go, whether they give power when you're pedaling or not. 01:10:22
And. 01:10:27
Things like that. Most of them Class 1 and 2 is 20 miles an hour or less. 01:10:28
Class 3 is 28 mph. 01:10:32
They require a regular bicycle helmet at least. 01:10:35
This one also. 01:10:40
The law, state law, allows us to regulate their use. 01:10:41
Under 16 cannot write currently. Under 16 cannot operate a class 3 bicycle. 01:10:44
Under 14 cannot operate electric bikes with the motor engaged Which? 01:10:49
That's really fun to enforce. 01:10:54
Whether it's engaged or not on. 01:10:56
Public property, highway, past sidewalk and less under direct supervision of parent or guardian. 01:10:58
And then under 8 cannot ride with motor engaged on any public property, highway, path or sidewalk. 01:11:03
This one is also is changing next year. 01:11:07
To just the highway or the roadways. 01:11:10
8 to 15 have to be under direct supervision. 01:11:13
Or have a safety certificate. 01:11:16
16 plus can operate them without that. 01:11:18
Under 8 cannot operate them on the roadway. 01:11:20
And that's for the electric bicycles. 01:11:23
So basically if it goes. 01:11:26
28 miles an hour or less for the most part. 01:11:27
And has pedals. 01:11:31
Generally that's going to fall under this. 01:11:33
The next one, this one's been probably the hottest topic is the electric motorcycles. 01:11:36
These require a dot approved helmet. 01:11:41
So like a full face sound like you would have to have on a regular motorcycle. 01:11:45
This one is where it gets. 01:11:49
Very nuanced on depending on how we want to look at it. If my guys come across this particular bike, for example, like a Chiron or 01:11:50
a Teleria or whatever the ones are now. 01:11:55
Technically it could be viewed. The way the state code reads is. 01:12:00
It's a motorcycle. 01:12:04
Which would require. 01:12:05
Registration, insurance, a driver's license and an endorsement by the rider. 16 Plus. 01:12:07
Right, if we want to look at it as a motorcycle. 01:12:11
The next definition would be a high power. 01:12:15
Electric device and if we're looking at it that way, it changes a little bit. It wouldn't require that. 01:12:17
The next way you could look at it is an off Hwy. motorcycle. 01:12:23
Like a dirt bike. 01:12:27
And then that would require off Hwy. registration. 01:12:28
But not. 01:12:31
Insurance not really require a driver's license. 01:12:33
So depending on and the way we've kind of done this is. 01:12:37
Depending on the use right if it's being used as. 01:12:40
One of those or the other, then we probably look at it that way. 01:12:43
But realistically? 01:12:46
It technically could qualify as. 01:12:47
Any of those three the state did not really do a great job of defining. 01:12:49
How we need to address those so it gets a little bit convoluted. 01:12:54
But they do so the and then high power electric devices. These are our. 01:12:59
It could be a scooter. 01:13:04
That goes more than 20 miles an hour. 01:13:05
It could be a. 01:13:07
Electric bike that's been modified to go more than that it could be. 01:13:08
Basically any electric device that goes. 01:13:12
Greater than 20 mph that doesn't have pedals, or even that has pedals with. 01:13:15
With. 01:13:19
Under the power of electric alone, not pedaling. 01:13:20
Right. And so? 01:13:22
Those are the 2. 01:13:25
Things becomes of the motorcycles. 01:13:26
This one says under 16 cannot operate them on a highway. 01:13:28
So if you're under 16, even though high power electric devices. 01:13:32
Technically, anybody under 16 should not be writing these on the highway. 01:13:35
They may need to be registered. 01:13:39
Now, they do allow the city to regulate the use of these on sidewalks, paths and trails. 01:13:41
If the city wants to, wants to do so. 01:13:47
Those are the main categories. There's other categories like the segues and the one wheels and. 01:13:51
A bunch of other things. If you want me to go into those, we can, but these are the ones we're seeing most of. 01:13:56
Yeah, umm. 01:14:01
Let's start with any questions you have on those and what. 01:14:02
What you'd like to have answers on? 01:14:05
Council, any questions for? 01:14:07
Yeah, I just have one. So do we currently have any regulations when it comes to sidewalks and trails? 01:14:10
If we don't have any ordinances that specify specifically for these certain devices, we do have laws. 01:14:15
Like you can't, you not you can't go more than 15 miles an hour on a sidewalk or trail in the city. 01:14:22
Technically an off Hwy. vehicle is not allowed on trails or sidewalks within the city. So if we're going to classify them as an 01:14:27
off Hwy. motorcycle. 01:14:31
They're not allowed. 01:14:35
Like mostly that when we passed that one, we were mostly looking at side by side and 4 Wheelers that we were getting riding on the 01:14:36
trails throughout the city. So that's why that one was passed. 01:14:40
And then in the parks there is we have a micro mobility device. 01:14:46
Ordinance within the parks themselves that basically says you can't drive it in a reckless manner. 01:14:50
You have to be safe because we get lots of kids riding through the park on these things. 01:14:56
When we originally proposed that we were looking at possibly just. 01:15:00
Keeping them to the sidewalks or trails. 01:15:03
But it got changed to just. 01:15:05
In a reasonable manner, basically. 01:15:07
Those are the main things that we have in the city right now that. 01:15:10
Regulate those sidewalks. 01:15:13
OK. Any other questions? I have a question about. 01:15:15
Yeah, bicycles or motorcycles, I guess. Are we treating electric motorcycles any differently than we treating any other? 01:15:18
Normally powered were. 01:15:24
Gas powered. 01:15:26
Vehicles. 01:15:27
Motorcycles, I should say, the same gas powered motorcycle, yeah. Are we treating the same? 01:15:28
I mean, the hard part about that is if you go and buy a gas powered Harley or whatever it might be, right? It's going to come with 01:15:31
a title. 01:15:36
You're going to have to register it. You're gonna have to have insurance, Yeah. 01:15:40
When you buy one of these Hurons or Telerias, they're not coming with a Utah title. 01:15:43
Right. And there's no registration on them now. I called the DMV and spoke with them. You can get them registered without a title. 01:15:47
It takes a little bit of doing, which you can get it done. 01:15:51
And so yes, we're treating them a little different because. 01:15:56
I can run the VIN number on a gas powered anything for the most part, even if it was a Honda CRF80. 01:15:59
It's going to have a VIN number and require registration. I can run that and see that in the state system. 01:16:04
And it's much easier. So there's some difficulties in. 01:16:08
Identifying how these are registered or titled or whatever. 01:16:12
Is there some? 01:16:15
Interest or effort and. 01:16:16
Underway to try to. 01:16:18
Upgrade the way those are provided so they can treat them equivalently so they can have bin numbers attached to these motorcycle. 01:16:20
State code is going to. 01:16:25
State code, I think it starts next year is going to state that anybody that's selling these now Grant, I think this will only 01:16:28
apply to if you're selling them within the state. You can still order them on Amazon, right, but. 01:16:32
State law is going to require manufacturers to put on to give a notice to people that are buying them that this is not an electric 01:16:38
bicycle. 01:16:42
It requires registration. 01:16:47
Verbiage like that it may require insurance. 01:16:49
So that'll be. 01:16:51
Disclaimer to buyers moving forward. 01:16:52
And that's being done at the state level, yes. 01:16:56
OK. Thank you. 01:16:58
Any other questions for Holden? 01:17:00
Just a comment, can you let us know? 01:17:02
Well, I guess it is a question. Can you let us know if you ever? 01:17:04
Recommend. 01:17:07
You know, further action on sidewalks or anything like that if you're starting to see. 01:17:09
Issues tick up and Vineyard, I feel like we've. 01:17:13
Haven't had too many outrageous ones lately. 01:17:16
But. 01:17:19
So. 01:17:20
The next slide I have is. 01:17:22
Like enforcement actions. 01:17:23
I don't know. 01:17:25
In the crowd if you're all here for this or not If you're here for the previous item, but anyways. 01:17:26
The the. 01:17:30
If you have kids that have these, you've probably heard that other cities are impounding a lot of these electric motorcycles, like 01:17:33
literally taking them to the tow yard and you got to go pay the DMV the impound fee. 01:17:38
And I mean, you're probably $1000 to get it out of impound. 01:17:43
Right. We have not been doing that. 01:17:45
Unless they're like if a kid flees from us and we catch them then. 01:17:48
They we will probably impound it and you'll get, they'll get, you know. 01:17:52
Charged with. 01:17:55
Fleeing from police, right? 01:17:56
But we have elected to do what we normally do in Vineyard is. 01:17:58
Try to gain compliance with a little bit more sugar than salt if you will, and. 01:18:01
Our biggest concern is safety. We've had a few kids get hurt. 01:18:07
Some major injuries hitting fire hydrants and cars on these is our biggest thing is safety like helmets and not riding them. 01:18:10
Erratically I mean. 01:18:17
I before kids doing 40 miles an hour in fact the other day. 01:18:18
Riding on Center Street, I was driving and I was pacing a dad with his little kid doing 40 miles an hour on the sidewalk on his 01:18:22
electric motorcycle. So. 01:18:26
Like we really want with no helmets on either. 01:18:31
So really we're focused on safety and. 01:18:35
The kids just knowing that we're going to come and talk to you and explain what the rules are. 01:18:37
And we're not going to impound your bike, you know, I mean, and we're trying to gain compliance that way. 01:18:41
If the Council would like us to take it any other direction, I'm happy to listen to that, but I'm pretty sure that's where we're 01:18:46
at on it. 01:18:48
I would recommend we consider. 01:18:51
Because the state especially beginning next year, so it gives us some time to. 01:18:55
To research this and decide what we wanted to come to a consensus on. 01:18:59
Coming up with a uniform regulation on these types of devices for our sidewalk trails in the path. 01:19:03
I would recommend we do that. 01:19:08
And. 01:19:10
On sidewalks, trails and paths, you said yes, yes, so we could set. 01:19:11
And it's very similar to the golf cart we can get with Jesse, but it would be very similar to the golf cart where we could say. 01:19:15
How old you have to be, How fast you can go? 01:19:21
What types of devices we're going to allow or not allow? We could identify certain areas that we allow that we or don't allow. 01:19:24
We really have a discretion there to. 01:19:31
To decide what the best path forward is for Vineyard. 01:19:34
So yeah, not many other cities have adopted. 01:19:36
Those, yet some have outlawed them completely. 01:19:39
There's a few cities that have done that and basically if we do nothing right now, the way the state statute reads. 01:19:42
They're not allowed. 01:19:47
So. 01:19:48
Because they they the state. 01:19:49
Put that verbiage in, it's not changing till next May. 01:19:51
So OK. 01:19:55
I mean, do you guys, does the Council, I mean the public have any other concerns that maybe we're not addressing we? 01:19:57
We've talked to a lot of kids. We've my guys have been pretty. 01:20:02
Proactive in this and stopping. 01:20:05
The kids on the especially the motorcycles or even the bicycles that are going really fast as well. 01:20:07
Yeah. 01:20:11
Council, any questions? 01:20:12
For Holden. 01:20:15
That was great public any. 01:20:17
Any questions? 01:20:18
John, come up. Yep, come up, Sir. 01:20:20
John Petting You'll hold the web fields Goodborough I wasn't expecting to talk about it, but and Holden and I haven't talked about 01:20:25
it. 01:20:28
Live at the end of South end of Maine. 01:20:33
And Stillwater. 01:20:35
At least the last six days and on a regular basis, there are three dudes, three young guys, they're under 16, they're riding 01:20:38
electric motorcycles and they're popping wheelies, driving 40 miles an hour on Stillwater and on Main. 01:20:45
Right in front of my house, every single day. 01:20:51
And then the new private roads to the east of us. 01:20:53
In phase two of Hold away. 01:20:57
So for me to hear that. 01:21:00
You know, and your officers have been down there. 01:21:02
Based on, you know. 01:21:04
Talking about cars, speed. 01:21:05
But it's. 01:21:06
Near and dear You may have all heard recently about the kid who the two kids got hit in Harriman and the one kid died. 01:21:09
That was in my. 01:21:15
Daughter's ward on her street. They were my grandson's friends. 01:21:15
It's just a matter of time where we're at, not if, but when based on what I'm seeing or whatever. So. 01:21:21
Yes, please. 01:21:27
Whatever we got to do for enforcement, can we do it? Can we step it up? 01:21:29
I don't know if that's. 01:21:34
New news or whatever hold them, but. 01:21:35
Thank you. Awesome. 01:21:38
OK, Do we? 01:21:41
Yeah, Keith, come on up. We'd love to hear from you. 01:21:42
Keith Vincent with the Villas. 01:21:46
My wife and I walk along the path along the lake. 01:21:49
Almost every day. 01:21:52
And. 01:21:53
It's just. 01:21:54
Doubled and tripled the amount of traffic with these kids on the scooters. 01:21:55
And I really think it's a matter of just education and. 01:21:59
You know what's allowed, what's not allowed, But. 01:22:03
That someone's going to get run over my wife. 01:22:05
Did get brushed almost run over? 01:22:08
So the. 01:22:10
If we could do something about that. 01:22:12
Thank you. 01:22:14
Council. I have one, yeah. 01:22:16
Yeah, go ahead, David. So do we. 01:22:17
Do we have the ability to issue tickets to? 01:22:19
Offenders, You know, repeat offenders. 01:22:22
Most of the state laws on this we would have to go to the parent and issue the parent a citation for allowing their child to 01:22:24
operate it that way. 01:22:27
I'm OK with that. 01:22:32
Because I we don't have an ability to cite a 12 year old kids with dirt bikes. 01:22:36
I do not understand. I have. 01:22:41
Have 17 grandkids in line to do this. 01:22:43
Geez, keep that yourself. Well, it's my kids, the parents, so I'm OK. 01:22:50
OK. And believe me, we understand the front like the concerns and safety concerns. You're very concerned about it, my guys. 01:22:56
The deputies are truly stopping people quite often every day and we'll get into that area. If you have areas that you're having 01:23:02
issues with, call us. 01:23:05
We'll watch it. 01:23:09
If we. 01:23:12
If we can't get compliance, I mean, yeah. 01:23:14
Step would be to start issuing those citations. 01:23:16
I really hate to impound a children's a child's bike or motorcycle because I know who's going to pay for that. 01:23:19
So it's not going to be them. 01:23:26
You know, and so. 01:23:28
But we can do that. That is within the law to do so. 01:23:30
I just I currently ask not my my preferred practice. So when you when you give a warning, does that go to the parents too or just 01:23:33
to the the? 01:23:38
Kid offender. 01:23:43
Depending on the circumstance we may like call parents and say or follow them home to parents house and talk to parents. I can 01:23:44
hypothetically speak to that. 01:23:47
OK. 01:23:51
Hypothetically. 01:23:55
How it works is. 01:23:56
Your dad gets the phone call. 01:23:58
And then there's a chewing out that happens from father to son. Well, I've heard that various growth, I guess. A phone call. I'm 01:24:00
good. 01:24:05
So. 01:24:13
Were there any other questions for this item on the agenda or did we address everything every? 01:24:14
I think your points in order hold and I think I think let's. 01:24:19
If you could get with Jesse start working on some recommendations on the sidewalks, trails and paths, I think that would be in 01:24:21
order. 01:24:24
Because I think that we did. 01:24:27
We have passed and sidewalks everybody and. 01:24:28
The desired outcome, obvious is we want to have to keep our community safe and our kids safe. We don't want to have. 01:24:31
Wrecks and stuff like that so. 01:24:37
I think it would come down to the appetite of the Council, to our. 01:24:39
Is there an appetite to? 01:24:43
Ban them, complain certain things completely, like the electric motorcycles. 01:24:44
From sidewalks, trails and paths. 01:24:48
Because that's where we've come in. Come before it's you know, I know nobody wants to be the guy that does that but or gal that 01:24:50
does that, but. 01:24:53
Seems to me we are tight for that. 01:24:56
We ought to treat them the way we treat. 01:24:58
Regular gas powered motorcycles. 01:25:00
Which would outlaw them completely. 01:25:02
I mean, they go. 01:25:05
Some of them, some of them do and. 01:25:07
Some of them almost as fast, which is just as bad. 01:25:10
Parker, where you at on this? 01:25:13
Greetings and salutations. 01:25:17
I've received feedback from residents. 01:25:20
On both sides of the issue. 01:25:22
Some have advocated for. 01:25:24
The removal or ban on sidewalks. 01:25:26
Sidewalks, paths and trails and others have said please protect this, it's our kids favorite recreational activity. 01:25:29
I'm. 01:25:37
Contemplating. 01:25:39
The balance of. 01:25:41
Personal liberty in my mind right now. 01:25:42
And I believe that. 01:25:45
You should be allowed to do what you want to do for recreational activity in so much as it does not impede. 01:25:47
Or endanger someone else. 01:25:53
And so then I. 01:25:55
And debating where that line is because it is hazardous. And I shared a story when we talked about this previously of my son being 01:25:58
hit. 01:26:01
By a young kid who's on an electric scooter who's going too fast and can't control it. 01:26:05
Yeah, and that. 01:26:09
You know, kind of sucked. 01:26:11
For my family. 01:26:12
But All in all, kids OK. 01:26:13
We move on. 01:26:16
But it is dangerous, I think on. 01:26:18
The trails especially like Mr. Vincent said. 01:26:20
The Lakefront Trail. 01:26:23
Is constantly. 01:26:25
Kids on those dirt bikes or scooters just cruising, but that's also a heavily trafficked area that just puts a lot of people at 01:26:27
risk. 01:26:31
Yeah, as a young teenager I was known to. 01:26:35
To drive a Honda 90. 01:26:38
Which at the time was a really low end bike. It's even lower end now. 01:26:40
But it would actually, I think if you really revved it up, get up to 3035 maybe, I don't know, but it was, but it was. 01:26:44
You know when you fell off that thing, it's just as bad as. 01:26:51
You know, a big bike. 01:26:54
And it seems to me if you hit somebody else and I. 01:26:56
I've been hit by it. 01:27:00
It wasn't fun. 01:27:01
It seems to me that electric bikes are about that state now. 01:27:02
And it seems to me we ought to do something to at least. 01:27:06
Try to protect the public. 01:27:10
That doesn't want to be. 01:27:11
From them, sure. 01:27:12
But yeah, we need to have a place for them to be able to drive them. 01:27:14
We also need to have a place for the public be able to walk safely. 01:27:19
OK, Jake. 01:27:23
Ezra and Jacob, where you guys at? 01:27:24
I I like where we're at now, where the speed limits kind of the governing thing. 01:27:28
I have a little sympathy for people who. 01:27:31
You know, want to ride? 01:27:33
Safely to a location and then. 01:27:35
You know, you know, wherever they might be going and then. 01:27:37
Have a. 01:27:41
A little more speed once they get to a safe area. So if they're all. 01:27:42
Band then it's going to be hard to transport those around so. 01:27:46
I mean, if it picks up, if it gets worse, I'd say let's keep trying to. 01:27:50
Encourage good behavior on these and. 01:27:54
You know, we can post on our social media. 01:27:56
David, if you want to. 01:27:58
Put some pulse out there. 01:27:59
Something like that, we can just continue to encourage it, but if we start to see it as. 01:28:01
A growing issue then I'd love to continue to just. 01:28:04
Hear more like let us know if it's getting getting worse. 01:28:07
As long as we're managing it then. 01:28:11
I'm comfortable just having the speed limits on the sidewalks and stuff. 01:28:13
Are any other cities banning it? 01:28:18
I think you, yeah, they are a couple of them, yeah. Pull on bands you feel about signs, like a sign. 01:28:20
Speed limit signs What? 01:28:25
Comes to motorized. 01:28:27
Stuff on the trail, I think, yeah, even a regular, if you've got a pedal bike, the speed limit is still the same. Yeah, for sure. 01:28:28
Like displaying the signs along Detroit. I think that might. 01:28:32
That's a good idea. 01:28:38
I think the line. 01:28:41
Is when they encroach upon the freedoms of others. So I think that. 01:28:43
If there's an accident, 100% we should be doing something just to teach them something. 01:28:47
And then when it's reported that they encroached upon someone walking where they. 01:28:52
There needs to be some sort of citation or this infringed, you know, like. 01:28:57
This is. 01:29:01
Getting close to an accident and it is this type of behavior. 01:29:02
I could understand that, but like. 01:29:06
Allowing it the freedom to do it. 01:29:08
Is you know you want to allow responsible. 01:29:11
You know, freedom. 01:29:15
Yeah, I think that's the line. I don't know. 01:29:18
Play devil's advocate with it, though. 01:29:20
Thought experiment. It's an opinion of what is and is not dangerous. 01:29:22
Zach's kids zips by me on the he's guilty the street. Hypothetically, who says? 01:29:26
That that's a near miss or close to an accident and when that determination should be. 01:29:31
The police I'm all for. 01:29:39
The trusting people and giving them the personal responsibility for it. 01:29:42
But. 01:29:47
When an accident occurs in that system. 01:29:48
You have to hold the person accountable, right? 01:29:51
Yeah, I would say that it's always the sheriff right, They're making that judgment. But you would you would side on if, if if 01:29:54
someones reporting that it is reckless. 01:29:58
And there's enough there to go on it. 01:30:02
I mean, maybe it's not the word of mouth or whatever, but if there's complaints that it's infringed upon the ability to walk or. 01:30:04
Or different things. 01:30:11
But I I I'm terrified like I've I've seen 3 or 4 willies on Holdaway road where they fall down. 01:30:13
And they get a. 01:30:20
And they're not going to tell anybody but they're. 01:30:21
They're really dangerous. 01:30:24
And I I'm. 01:30:25
I'm we're going to see some deaths in the next year. 01:30:26
Kids, it's bad. 01:30:29
All righty. OK. 01:30:32
Thank you. 01:30:33
Off we go. 01:30:34
OK, let's jump to 5.3. Discuss. Resolution 202631 is insignificant land resolution. I'm going to kick that over to Ezra. 01:30:35
To go over that. 01:30:43
Sure. So. 01:30:46
This policy. 01:30:48
Is. 01:30:49
And attempt to address. 01:30:50
There's a few issues around the city where we've got. 01:30:53
Parcels in our. 01:30:56
As we were building out quickly. 01:30:59
You know, we didn't always get the. 01:31:01
Exact. 01:31:03
Lines, right, whether it's a developer or the city or or whatever. 01:31:04
And so you have some homes where like a fence was built. 01:31:09
Improperly. 01:31:12
Either into the city's right of way or. 01:31:13
Or other property infringing upon. 01:31:16
You know, city land. 01:31:20
This would provide a. 01:31:22
Relatively low cost solution to address some of these issues. So if we have like a small stretch. 01:31:24
Of land where? 01:31:30
You know, we've got one, Homer. 01:31:31
Homeowner in violation. 01:31:33
We can. 01:31:35
Straighten out a line rather than requiring A homeowner to pay. 01:31:36
Significant amounts of money if it's. 01:31:39
You know, just a couple feet that we're talking about. 01:31:41
And a pretty minimal. 01:31:44
Cost this was. 01:31:45
Driven by some state law changes and a homeowner approaching us as well. 01:31:50
Back in 2024. 01:31:55
There was kind of a. 01:31:57
A push from the surveyors to to help be able to clean up some of these. 01:31:59
Kind of insignificant boundary. 01:32:03
Line encroachments and. 01:32:05
And so there's a. 01:32:07
There's basically. 01:32:08
Two ways for people to handle. 01:32:09
For cities to handle this is. 01:32:11
If there's a significant one. 01:32:13
You know, that's identified as a larger substantial partial in the law. 01:32:16
And then if there's insignificant ones, cities have a little bit more latitude to. 01:32:19
To address them. 01:32:24
And so I sent out. 01:32:26
My proposal to try to. 01:32:28
Have a policy for us as a city to be able to. 01:32:31
Address these as they come through. There'd be an application process. 01:32:33
The administrative costs would have to be. 01:32:39
Borne by the homeowner that's approaching the city saying, hey, I've got this issue. 01:32:41
I want to address it. 01:32:44
But then the Council could. 01:32:45
Potentially waive. 01:32:47
Some of the land acquisition costs where you've got. 01:32:48
You know, small strip of land it could be worth on paper a lot of money. 01:32:51
Where? 01:32:55
You know the value to the city is not that much where it's the difference between. 01:32:58
A park or an open space having one foot of encroachment or two feet of encroachment. 01:33:03
Versus not having that over over the side, so. 01:33:07
Have any questions? 01:33:11
Feel free to ask him, I know I'm a little bit at odds with. 01:33:13
Some of the staff and proposing this, but I think it. 01:33:17
Could make a lot of sense and kind of balance the. 01:33:21
Rigidity of what needs to happen. 01:33:24
For a. 01:33:27
Longer, more extensive process. 01:33:28
Or, umm. 01:33:30
You know, giving the council some discretion to say, hey, this isn't really a big deal, let's let's take care of it. What's this? 01:33:31
What's this draft written by? 01:33:35
By Jesse Did you get Jesse to help with this? 01:33:38
I sent it to Jesse and he reviewed it and didn't have any additional comments. 01:33:41
OK, great. Mayor, do you mind if we have? 01:33:44
David who've gone through this process and. 01:33:46
It's one thing to hear about it, but. 01:33:49
Did you review the process and agree with it? 01:33:52
Did it work? I mean and and versus what is currently versus? 01:33:54
Maybe you want to set up the mic and give us some feedback. 01:33:59
We're going to have. 01:34:02
I mean, there's probably 50 to 100 of these problems scattered throughout the city. 01:34:03
Dave Height Maples. Yeah, so. 01:34:09
And that my house is built. 01:34:13
Probably over 10 years ago. 01:34:15
The fence and the Peachtree in the garden went in right about the same time that the green space that it backs up to put in their 01:34:18
lawn. 01:34:22
I went through the Google Earth. 01:34:26
And try to. 01:34:28
Find out the timetable. I just know back in 2017 both the garden boxes and the Peachtree. 01:34:29
Went in at the same time as as the. 01:34:35
So I don't I can't say who who did what first. 01:34:38
But and then in. 01:34:42
20 Sometime between 2019 and 2020, they put up a fence. 01:34:44
Anyway, so I bought the house in 2022. 01:34:49
No 2023. 01:34:53
And was not disclosed to me that. 01:34:55
The boundaries were off. 01:34:58
And then it came to my attention while I was living there. 01:35:01
That yes. 01:35:05
One side of my the corner of my fence was off by three feet and the other one was off by 5. 01:35:06
Roughly about 250 square feet. 01:35:11
And so I did approach Ezra and Jacob. 01:35:15
About this situation, hey, let's try to get a resolution. 01:35:20
And. 01:35:24
My understanding is Vineyard doesn't have a clear cut. 01:35:26
On what to do with the insignificant land? 01:35:29
And so Ezra put this together. I did review it. 01:35:34
I do understand the. 01:35:38
The fear or the trepidation of. 01:35:42
Trying to set precedents. 01:35:44
But in my situation I think it would be very hard to repeat. 01:35:47
And I think this. 01:35:51
Code that you would vote on would. 01:35:55
Be something that. 01:35:57
Is very clear. 01:35:58
And hard to replicate. 01:36:00
And so to me, I think it helps people out. 01:36:04
Are in situations like myself. 01:36:07
Where I wasn't the one that put it up, I was the one that. 01:36:10
Kept it going. 01:36:14
And you know, it looks good. The Peachtree looks good, the garden boxes look good. The fence looks good. 01:36:16
On the other side of the fence. 01:36:22
You know the grass goes right up to it equally. That's where the sprinklers go right up to. 01:36:24
And so it's an actually natural fit. 01:36:30
And by moving it, it doesn't add really any type of. 01:36:32
Value to the city because it's just a green space. 01:36:36
OK, so. 01:36:39
Any other questions or comments from I have. 01:36:42
I have a couple questions. Yeah, go ahead. So help us understand the the limits that you're using here. 01:36:45
Why $20,000? Why 300 square feet? 01:36:50
Why before 2020? 01:36:54
I wanted to put some limitations on this so it wasn't just. 01:36:57
Inviting people to to do this in the future. 01:37:00
So the pre 2020 is to kind of recognize this was a. 01:37:03
A time of pretty rapid growth. 01:37:06
We had prior to 2020 less than. 01:37:08
You know, 20 administrative staff at the time. 01:37:11
We've now since grown as a city and we have more opportunity to. 01:37:16
To review these and and. 01:37:20
Handle situations like this. 01:37:23
The $20,000 was just a dollar amount I put in there. 01:37:26
Seemed like a. 01:37:29
When you're looking at land size. 01:37:32
Something that. 01:37:33
Was reasonable or price per square footage where we do have high land values and vineyard. 01:37:34
But kind of identified this is a. 01:37:39
Relatively smaller parcel, but I'm not married to any of these. As land values go up that we met, we may bump into that more. 01:37:42
Overtime, yeah, we could for sure. 01:37:49
Well, I think, I think to the. 01:37:51
As I kind of look at the. 01:37:53
The build out of our city. 01:37:55
Most of the single family homes are. 01:37:56
There. So we kind of know the problems are, yeah. 01:37:58
I don't I don't see this. 01:38:01
These problems getting. 01:38:02
More of them. 01:38:03
I mean. 01:38:04
That could be I guess, but. 01:38:05
They pre exist. They're already there, correct? Yeah, they exist, yeah. 01:38:07
Yep, exactly. And yeah, I've had, actually I've had another. 01:38:11
So while David most recently reached out, I've had another. 01:38:15
Issue when I was city manager when we. 01:38:19
When we dealt with something like this, I don't think we ended up doing anything for it, but. 01:38:21
Yeah, this was potentially like this could affect. 01:38:27
A small swath of land owners, but. 01:38:30
You know, a significant. 01:38:32
Swath if we can get them taken care of. So yeah, for sure. 01:38:34
But I'm open to changing those limits if we want to. 01:38:38
Razor lower. We can always revisit this via council action as well if. 01:38:41
You know, down the road we want to do a higher dollar amount or. 01:38:45
Higher square footage depending on how things go. So one other question. 01:38:48
Daria mentioned. 01:38:53
This might be something that the. 01:38:54
That the Planning Commission could help us with as well. 01:38:56
Does it need to be a City Council action or could? 01:38:59
Could it be handled by the Planning Commission for the most part and. 01:39:02
Get ratified by the. 01:39:06
By the Council. 01:39:07
I mean, we killed as far as like the final decision. 01:39:11
I just figure if we're going to have to ratify it anyway, we might as well. The state code does. Yeah, it. 01:39:15
The Planning Commission could give a recommendation is what I'm saying, but. 01:39:21
I just. 01:39:24
I think these are going to be so insignificant, it's not worth going through that extra step, but. 01:39:25
I'm open to. 01:39:29
Actually, I actually kind of like the. 01:39:31
I like the head of the Planning Commission like it goes to the head to A. 01:39:33
To review and then they just send it to us on a consent item. 01:39:37
With an up or down. 01:39:41
We're recommending this, so it's just. 01:39:43
One person on the Planning Commission. 01:39:45
That is assigned to. 01:39:48
To handle it because. 01:39:50
That are going to go look at the planned research you know David Council, I don't. 01:39:51
Well, or maybe one person on the council. I mean, it was really good to go out, David, go through the documents, look at this map. 01:39:56
One person should kind of give a recommendation. I don't think all five of us need to go out to each insignificant. 01:40:02
Parcel and go, OK, I get what's going on. Yeah, I'm and here I just have staff give their recommendation or the thoughts and then 01:40:08
the council considers it. Mayor. There's one comment I would have on this. It's more of a clarification. 01:40:15
So the state law. 01:40:22
Does have that? 01:40:25
The boundary of boundary adjustment would have to conform to the land use. 01:40:27
Be in compliance land use. 01:40:33
So the land use authority would just have to. 01:40:35
Ensure that they're part of the process. 01:40:37
So I believe that would just be the DRC. 01:40:39
But if it's from one approved land use to another approved land use, the land use has already been approved. 01:40:42
In essence is just to make sure conforming these there, for example. 01:40:48
It doesn't change any, especially because it deals with public the public. 01:40:52
Property that it just has to ensure that there's the conformities there that. 01:40:56
You know, by changing. 01:41:01
Any type of property that it doesn't fall below like the. 01:41:04
Like the type of single family residential that might be applied to it's it's it's there in state law that just has to be. 01:41:07
Checked by the land use authority. 01:41:16
For conformity, that's really the land use authority is not. 01:41:18
Saying yes, you should do this or no, you shouldn't do this because it says it does say DRC instead of it does say you'll reserve 01:41:21
a perpetual. 01:41:25
Easement. 01:41:29
Which I think is. I would cover that, wouldn't it? 01:41:30
For this I mean for any particular case, I'm not sure. I mean if in a general sense it should. It depends. 01:41:34
Those are types of things that would just be put in consideration. 01:41:40
Like I can't speak on. 01:41:43
Any this particular case? 01:41:44
For the for this particular resident since I haven't reviewed it. 01:41:46
But it's just a process of. 01:41:49
Conformity into like this a check. 01:41:51
Checkbox to say yes. This does not. 01:41:54
Create any kind of. 01:41:56
Changes in terms of land use. 01:41:58
Again, this is in state law. I can't remember exactly the number, but I can give it to you. 01:42:00
So I just say in Section 4 instead of having. 01:42:04
All findings shall receive a staff recommendation. We could just say. 01:42:06
DRC recommendation there. 01:42:10
Or if you would just like to put the land use ability. 01:42:15
Or the yeah, we can use the same language and say land use authority. 01:42:17
I'm curious. 01:42:21
If I may just share. 01:42:23
Some thought and feedback. 01:42:25
Is there of? 01:42:27
Way or a process? 01:42:28
That we could go through with something like this without. 01:42:30
Outlining, uh. 01:42:33
Specifications that become a blanket precedent. 01:42:35
I mean, can we reserve the right to handle these on a case by case basis? 01:42:40
The reason that I bring that question up. 01:42:45
Is. 01:42:47
In my previous comment in the last section. 01:42:48
People should be responsible for their actions now, I think, in this situation. 01:42:51
It was not David's action that put David in this situation, It was the previous property owner. 01:42:56
Unpopular opinion. 01:43:03
The previous property owner has some liability in this. 01:43:04
Now that's a question for. 01:43:08
Mr. Riddle. 01:43:10
But. 01:43:11
I don't think the city should be in the business of. 01:43:12
Hurting a resident either and I like. 01:43:15
In this situation. 01:43:18
This. 01:43:20
Course of action to rectify the issue. 01:43:21
Potentially raises. 01:43:24
The residence property values not just his, but the surrounding area as well. 01:43:26
Which is a better outcome for those neighbors? 01:43:31
And it's done. 01:43:34
At a minimal expense. 01:43:35
To the residents and the taxpayer. 01:43:38
But is there also a course of action to recoup that cost and expenditure? 01:43:40
Due to the liability that someone else would have incurred by misrepresenting the sale of real property. 01:43:45
As in, I'm no longer sizing titles. Jim Pollen. 01:43:50
Yeah. No, I did. I didn't think about potentially having an option where. 01:43:54
If any land is sold. 01:43:58
That they would. 01:44:01
Pay the market value at that. 01:44:02
Time of the you know, the land that was conveyed, sure. 01:44:03
So yeah, I did. 01:44:07
At least consider that and I'd be open to. 01:44:09
To having some provision additional thought on this. 01:44:11
Is it prevents us from having people who. 01:44:15
Maybe intentionally do something dishonest. 01:44:19
Where if you own the property and you build the fence and you claim. 01:44:22
Three extra feet in each direction that's not yours. 01:44:28
Now we can say no, you were the one responsible for this. You don't fall into this bucket. We're not going to give you the 01:44:31
provision. 01:44:35
Yeah, that's that's where I added the. 01:44:39
The pre 2020 so that. 01:44:42
Anything. Anything existing. 01:44:44
You know this kind of sure, but if somebody did it in 2019. 01:44:46
And they were the property owner and they're still the residents. Can they claim that they fall into this bucket? 01:44:50
I'm saying let's just. 01:44:55
Is there a way we can do it on a case by case? They said a case by versus the precedent, Yeah, because. 01:44:56
Does this title figure, yeah, we insurance figure into this. Can we, can that be used? No, we we do have that in the approval 01:45:01
section on specifically spelling out that each case is unique. 01:45:06
And that it won't set precedence that this is an application procedure all applications. 01:45:11
Have final review and approval by the City Council but but I do. 01:45:16
I do recognize that. 01:45:20
Yeah, now somebody could try to make that argument. 01:45:23
Like umm. 01:45:25
That was the language I put in there to try to address that, but. 01:45:26
If there's something stronger that we could do. 01:45:29
To make sure that doesn't happen, I would be totally open to. 01:45:31
Yeah, you know. 01:45:34
Having that, I just wanted to put this. 01:45:36
Together as here's a good concept framework we could work off of and if we want to strengthen any sections or change any sections. 01:45:38
Let's take care of that. 01:45:44
During the work session so we can get it approved. 01:45:46
On this situation, there is a little bit of. 01:45:48
Not I guess. 01:45:52
Perceived urgency it's not. 01:45:53
Super. 01:45:56
You know, it's not really the city's concern, but I would like to try to get it addressed. I know we've got. 01:45:58
Adjacent land owners that are. 01:46:02
Kind of seeking direction, do we? 01:46:04
Can. 01:46:06
You know, put our fence in. 01:46:07
Do we need to put our fence in at the? 01:46:09
Define city property line or can we make it a straight line? 01:46:11
So that we don't have an issue where. 01:46:14
We've got, we've got it. Yeah, we want to clean it up. So they're clean lines, right? Like because it's crazy maintenance issue. 01:46:16
Yeah, it. 01:46:23
And that's why I think that. 01:46:25
Is just on a case by case basis with him I I think you just. 01:46:26
Maybe you put someone as a counsel to go. 01:46:30
And you just up it down and vote. Problems happen in governments all the time and. 01:46:33
You can't. 01:46:38
Write a rule specific to all the different scenarios. 01:46:39
So I think you just do an application that's very open and easy. 01:46:42
That allows them to apply for it and whoever the applying person that reviews it, one person on the council, the DRC, then it 01:46:46
comes for us for a quick up and down vote. 01:46:51
OK, I notice there's no one here. We address the the cost. 01:46:56
So the price that? 01:47:00
If you go to the next. 01:47:02
The actual kind of spelled out procedures in the Exhibit A, Yeah, the cost consideration in Section 2. 01:47:05
Yes, Exhibit A would be the actual kind of process, right? You talk about shifted liability and intangible benefits and so forth. 01:47:11
Initiative floor, but there's no numbers attached. 01:47:18
Yeah, so each one will get a staff review. 01:47:21
An assessment. 01:47:23
Will have the numbers put in front of us. 01:47:24
If they meet. 01:47:27
The under 20,000 threshold. 01:47:28
And then we can decide how much. 01:47:30
We would waive essentially on the purchase price there. I see. 01:47:32
OK, OK. 01:47:39
Any other comments before I move to the next item? 01:47:40
OK, great. 01:47:44
Anything we want to work sessions about for two weeks. 01:47:47
Yeah, I propose having this back on the agenda for an actual vote. 01:47:51
Let's do it. I'd say one of us assigned. Did we land on DRC or one of us assigned the job and then. 01:47:55
You should probably just happen to run relative because they need to do it I think, right? 01:48:02
Like if we wanted to take care of this first one. 01:48:09
I hate to have it to be staff. I think it needs to be an elected official because they're literally solving a problem. 01:48:12
Sure, but if state code says that land use has to be involved then. 01:48:18
Yeah, we still, we'll still see them from the up down. Yes, they give a record. Yeah, they recommend it. 01:48:23
OK, that's fine. 01:48:28
Yeah, the DRC is just a. 01:48:30
To jump through that hoop and then we put it on it. 01:48:32
Let me see. 01:48:36
I would be fine. 01:48:39
There's a lot we would have to. 01:48:48
To do on the back end, I mean we would move as quickly as we could. 01:48:50
I think we could schedule a special DRC meeting once everything's done. 01:48:55
Correct. 01:49:00
I mean, we can just move as as. 01:49:02
Quickly as we can, we're going to. 01:49:05
There's a lot on the back end that would have to. 01:49:07
Be looked at for a specific property but. 01:49:09
I think the most important. 01:49:13
Thing to make it move along quickly would be to get this on next Tuesday's agenda. 01:49:15
To get the policy in place and then. 01:49:20
And then staff will work on everything else. 01:49:23
Would you guys be comfortable? 01:49:26
Does that give you enough assurance that hey, we get the policy passed next week? 01:49:28
That we are. 01:49:32
At least moving in that direction so. 01:49:33
You know, it's at least. 01:49:35
Within a month or. 01:49:37
How much time do you think? 01:49:39
Mostly here. 01:49:41
Yeah, OK. 01:49:46
OK, sounds good. 01:49:48
OK, let's jump to the RDA. 01:49:51
Meeting umm. 01:49:55
Oh. 01:49:58
I didn't. 01:49:59
I Robin or not Robin? Hey Robin. I mean Tony. 01:50:00
Do we need to gavel out and gavel in or do we just? 01:50:06
Can we just all right? 01:50:09
Sounds great. Let's take a. 01:50:12
Listen, two-minute 2 minute recess. 01:50:14
No getting Mountain Dew, everyone stay here except. 01:50:16
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Transcript

Event transcript
Loaded. 00:05:42
Got a quorum now OK. 00:05:44
Welcome out everybody. 00:05:46
Today is. 00:05:47
July 7th. 00:05:49
It is 4:00. We're going to call the order R. 00:05:52
City Council meeting. 00:05:56
Work session. 00:05:57
Let's see. 00:06:02
Chris Jud. 00:06:04
Could you mind saying? 00:06:05
A prayer for us. Would you feel comfortable doing that? 00:06:06
And a pledge as well. 00:06:09
And then, if you didn't know this, you get a nice American. 00:06:11
That you can. 00:06:14
Put on your. 00:06:15
Well, he has to say prayer. It's, you know, that's kind of the. 00:06:18
That's the the cost of entrance so. 00:06:22
Come on up. 00:06:25
Thanks, Chris. 00:06:25
Yeah, umm. 00:06:26
Our gracious Heavenly Father, we come before Thee. 00:06:34
Afternoon and we give thee thanks for this day. 00:06:36
Father, we're very thankful for the opportunity we have to be here together as a community. 00:06:39
We're thankful for all the freedoms and liberties that we have, especially during this time that we get to celebrate. 00:06:43
Our independence and. 00:06:50
This great nation, Father, at this time we ask you to bless us as residents. Our council, our. 00:06:51
Board members and all those who serve here in this community, that they'll feel inspired, they'll be able to. 00:06:57
Reach out and. 00:07:03
Do the best they can with their abilities. Father, at this time we also to ask thee for a blessing upon our. 00:07:04
National leaders and those throughout the world that they'll continue to be able to find ways to find peace and be able to lookout 00:07:10
for those individuals they serve. 00:07:14
Father, at this time we also ask thee to bless any of those families who are found in vineyards that are in need of help and ask 00:07:17
you to help those neighbors around them to fill that and be able to reach out. 00:07:22
The things we asked, the forefather name that I saw Jesus Christ. Amen. Amen. 00:07:27
I pledge allegiance. 00:07:38
Republic for which it stands. 00:07:44
One nation under God. 00:07:46
Indivisible. 00:07:48
Awesome. 00:07:53
All righty, let's go ahead Council, let's do, let's talk to #4 and do our consent item. 00:07:56
Approval of June 23rd. 00:08:02
2026 City Council meetings. 00:08:04
Can I get a motion on that to approve those? 00:08:07
I move to approve the City Council meeting minutes as presented. 00:08:12
OK, do I have a second? 00:08:16
Second. OK, all in favor. 00:08:18
Aye, OK. All right. 00:08:21
Got that taken care of. OK, let's jump into public comment. 00:08:23
Come up to the microphone, did we? Did we do a sign in today, Tony? 00:08:29
OK. 00:08:35
OK. 00:08:45
All righty. 00:08:46
We just have Dora here, but I suspect we have more, so let's start with Daria. 00:08:48
1st. 00:08:52
So come on down. 00:08:53
Thanks Daria. 00:08:54
Daria Evans Villas resident. 00:08:56
Since this is just a work session, I guess I'm going to address this. 5.3 Discuss the resolution 2631 Insignificant land 00:09:00
Resolution by Council member Ezra Near. 00:09:06
I just have. 00:09:14
A question about it. 00:09:15
Since I'm on the Planning Commission, I'm looking at the. 00:09:17
A Vineyard code 15.06 point 030 Vineyard Planning Commission. 00:09:20
Wondering. 00:09:26
Even though we are an advisory body. 00:09:27
We are able to discuss things and. 00:09:30
Plan submission Amendments to plans. 00:09:36
And a land use. 00:09:40
And so I'm wondering if. 00:09:42
That should be. 00:09:45
Addressed by the Planning Commission before it goes forward. That is a great question and good point and also. 00:09:46
I would like to know if we've got any numbers for the fireworks. 00:09:54
How much we spent on fireworks for Vineyard days. 00:09:58
And also on the. 00:10:01
The 2nd of July. 00:10:02
Absolutely, DK do you wanna what do we spend on fireworks this year and. 00:10:04
If we answer. 00:10:10
That real quick. 00:10:11
For Vineyard days. 00:10:13
Yeah, been your days was a total of 15,000. 00:10:15
For fireworks and then what about you also said on the 2nd of July? 00:10:18
12,500. 00:10:23
OK, awesome. 00:10:25
OK. 00:10:27
All righty, let's jump. Anybody else? 00:10:29
Who else would like to? 00:10:31
Come on up. 00:10:33
Let's say I. 00:10:35
So I am one of the the properties that is affected by. 00:10:39
Can I have your OH David height? 00:10:43
I'm in the maples. 00:10:45
That has. 00:10:47
A piece of property that's insignificant. 00:10:49
Less than 250 square feet. 00:10:52
And so we are just looking for a resolution that has cement, a Peachtree garden boxes fence. 00:10:55
That was not. 00:11:01
Put up by me. 00:11:03
And not disclosed by the sellers. 00:11:04
And so. 00:11:06
I would appreciate. 00:11:08
Some type of Ave. 00:11:10
That can. 00:11:12
Not necessarily set precedents because I understand that. 00:11:16
Or get anything for free, I understand that. 00:11:18
But not have to pay for something twice for something that I that I thought was mine to begin with. 00:11:21
And again, I know that there's other cities that do things like this, like. 00:11:27
Bountiful. 00:11:31
Huntsville, they have different things and so. 00:11:33
Just looking for a resolution. 00:11:36
To help out those that are in my situation. 00:11:40
It's been there for over 7 years. That was not put there by me. 00:11:44
But have been kept by me and made better. 00:11:48
So I would support something like. 00:11:53
Resolution. 00:11:55
22631. 00:11:56
Thank you so much. 00:11:58
Anybody else? 00:12:02
OK, awesome. 00:12:07
We will close public comments and jump into our work session. 00:12:09
5.1 Discuss. 400 South Rd. Design and construction. 00:12:12
Councilman Holdaway, do you want to? 00:12:16
Head lead out on this one, Jake. 00:12:18
Sure, you guys see my screen? 00:12:21
OK, so. 00:12:25
Where we want to start? 00:12:27
So. 00:12:32
We are here because. 00:12:34
My father is unwilling to sell his little triangle of land. 00:12:35
To the city. 00:12:42
You don't need that, right? 00:12:44
What? We don't need that triangle, right? 00:12:45
Well, that work. Without it, the city could go around it if they wanted to in that specific design. 00:12:48
I'm just going after the last City Council meeting of what was last voted on, so let me go over the last working session. 00:12:54
This is our fifth working session and. 00:13:02
It was asked to. 00:13:06
Be able to purchase the property so. 00:13:08
That's when we went and said let, let's see what we could do. 00:13:10
I think the mayor, I don't know how long you worked on trying to see if you could buy it. 00:13:13
To get a better design than what was approved. 00:13:16
Um, and I went and met with the. 00:13:20
Different property owners. 00:13:24
Nate Riley, you know. 00:13:26
Keith Holdaway. Sean Herring. 00:13:27
And quite a few others to find a compromise to be able to get through there. 00:13:29
Keith, hold away. 00:13:34
Provided the required right of way. I don't have the year. 00:13:36
Of when that was. 00:13:40
Under the understanding that the. 00:13:42
Larger. 00:13:45
60 foot 63 or whatever foot Rd. would would be required of all land owners. 00:13:46
He was very. 00:13:53
Angry at the time about that required meant. 00:13:55
I don't know if it's 810 years ago. 00:13:58
He made it very clear at the time. 00:13:59
And the city was very clear at the time that every landowner at that time would be held to that same new standard. 00:14:01
With this new Council. 00:14:09
The mayor and other council members have said that the other land owners are not going to be required. 00:14:10
Between the east side of Holdaway Rd. down to the park. 00:14:16
To go to that new standard. 00:14:19
The only. 00:14:21
Parcels are affecting my land and my father. 00:14:22
If you could grab the. 00:14:26
Document for everybody. 00:14:27
To pass those around. 00:14:29
In December of this past year, the Council. 00:14:31
Prior to us being sent. 00:14:34
Step forth a new city standard. 00:14:36
The standard has never applied to any collector Rd. ever built. 00:14:39
So every single collector Rd. that's been built, there's 15 different standards. 00:14:45
And. 00:14:50
The new standard is 83 feet. 00:14:51
So if I'm just going to share on my screen, just kind of walking through the different standards. 00:14:53
Me and David Laray went out and walked them today. 00:14:59
Down on 300 W in front of the fire station. 00:15:03
It only had the collector Rd. only has 40 feet now we're counting. 00:15:06
The. 00:15:10
Sidewalk, curb and gutter. 00:15:11
The lane, bike lane and path. 00:15:13
Now there are some. 00:15:17
Developments. 00:15:19
Down on 300 W that go extremely wider. 00:15:20
As they wanted parking. 00:15:23
We did offer. 00:15:25
In the negotiation with Clegg to say, hey, do you guys want to shrink down? 00:15:27
As kind of a. 00:15:30
Caveat to be able to do that, and those negotiations broke down. 00:15:32
In front of the fire station. It's actually the skinniest. 00:15:37
In terms of and, there was something online about how you couldn't get fire. 00:15:39
Fire trucks in. 00:15:43
And so we reviewed the tape. 00:15:44
The Fire Chief said that the roads were not only ample. 00:15:46
But they they fit the code and so. 00:15:50
The if you can see at the top. 00:15:54
The new. 00:15:56
Cross section of the Vineyard Collectors standard is the city requiring that the holdaways kick over 63 feet? 00:15:57
This doesn't happen in front of. 00:16:05
Mccumbers House doesn't happen in front of. 00:16:07
The mayor's home. 00:16:10
It doesn't happen on Center St. 00:16:11
Even in Center St. 00:16:13
There isn't a sidewalk on one side of the road. 00:16:14
There's only a sidewalk on the other side of the road. 00:16:16
I believe I'm here because my last name is Holdaway and I have to defend my name. 00:16:20
Because there's no one in the city that has this standard. 00:16:24
When my father. 00:16:28
Was approached by the city to donate. 00:16:29
The quarter mile of 21. 00:16:32
Feet, he again reminded the mayor at the time. 00:16:34
OK, I will donate. 00:16:38
The entire pathway for free. 00:16:39
But he reminded them. 00:16:42
What is the standard for the road and is he going to be treated fairly? 00:16:44
So in meeting with the compromise. 00:16:48
We sat everyone down. 00:16:50
And went through and said what was the lane of traffic? 00:16:52
So on 400 S it mimics. 00:16:55
Every single Rd. 00:16:58
Of traffic so. 00:16:59
The compromise goes through and. 00:17:01
It provides. 00:17:06
5 feet of existing sidewalk, it's the same. 00:17:08
It provides 8 feet of parking. 00:17:11
2 feet of curb and gutter. 00:17:13
12 feet of. 00:17:15
Travel Lane. 00:17:17
Another 12 feet of travel aid. 00:17:18
2 feet of. 00:17:20
Now all the only difference is. 00:17:21
If this city on the east side were to go and redevelop, it would cost millions of dollars to be able to go through and do. 00:17:23
The east side would have temporary. 00:17:30
Ballards. 00:17:33
That would be separating the bike lane so that we have one continuous bike lane from. 00:17:34
Vineyard Elementary in the park all the way down. 00:17:40
And the bike lane would shift to the north side of the road. 00:17:42
And then? 00:17:46
On the. 00:17:47
East on the West side of the road. 00:17:48
It would be built to correct standards in the future. If the council wants to spend the millions of dollars moving the curb and 00:17:50
gutter 12 feet toward the Ballards are to do the. 00:17:54
The more safe design. 00:17:59
It would be but. 00:18:00
In meeting with. 00:18:01
Ashley Acres. 00:18:03
And leaders from there and then also. 00:18:04
Riley's it's just treating everyone fair. 00:18:08
To be able to. 00:18:11
Avoid litigation in terms of going through and doing that. 00:18:12
David Kyle. 00:18:17
We reached out to our attorney to get understanding because the council had no appetite. Could you help us understand the? 00:18:17
Process for. 00:18:24
Purchasing. 00:18:26
And the time and the costs. 00:18:27
For eminent domain to be able to force the cell. 00:18:30
Real quick, why would there be any litigation on this piece that the city owns? 00:18:35
So there's a section the city doesn't own. 00:18:40
I'm talking about this piece though. 00:18:42
Like 400 S if this is about that little piece. 00:18:44
Why don't we just go around that piece? 00:18:48
You could go skinny, everything else the standard, you could go skinnier and the city could be for that. 00:18:50
OK, Yeah. 00:18:56
You could be, and my dad has been very clear. 00:18:57
When the city comes and represents themselves, that every single person is going to be treated fair on the on the road. 00:19:00
He's going to go through and say everyone should be treated fair. 00:19:05
And they should provide the same amount of property throughout the thing. 00:19:08
So he can and has land to be able to sue. 00:19:12
And he is more than willing to exercise that right. 00:19:14
And so the litigation is being able to say. 00:19:18
Should everyone be treated fair? Now the compromise. 00:19:21
Is about right in the middle. 00:19:25
4945 feet. Now if the city wants to come back on Keith Holdaway side and say. 00:19:27
Hey, let's do a trail. 00:19:32
And just so you know, the widest trail we could find was 8 1/2 feet. 00:19:34
He's going let's go 10, but let's say we want to go back and say the the largest Rd. Let's do 11, let's do 12 feet. 00:19:37
It gets to a point where. 00:19:45
There's not enough there. There isn't. 00:19:47
And the other thing that's really dark about this, and it really bothers me. 00:19:50
Is. 00:19:53
This standard was put in in December when we voted. 00:19:55
Nobody brought it up. It was. 00:19:58
Buried in a 90 page document with hundreds of different standards. 00:20:00
That were applied. 00:20:04
Every single collector Rd. is built in the city. 00:20:05
We're probably not going to be building another collector rout. 00:20:09
OK, because there's no other places. 00:20:12
So the only segment that we voted in in the past, council and mayor would apply to me and only me and only my family. 00:20:14
And that was passed in December. 00:20:22
So this would be the first one that would apply to. 00:20:24
It probably is probably important the public know that that. 00:20:27
We're talking about about roughly 200 yard segment. 00:20:31
From right corner of hold. 00:20:33
Going West towards the roundabout that services Sleepy Ridge. 00:20:36
That that section there is the part we're talking about. The rest of the road is built now further West of that. 00:20:41
And further east of that, that's the last segment and. 00:20:46
And and this and you're right, we went as we went through and measured all these other. 00:20:50
Collector routes. 00:20:54
None of them were the same. 00:20:55
They were all different. 00:20:57
They all had different different things going. They some of them only had 11 foot lanes and no extra room on the sides and no bike 00:20:58
lanes and no. 00:21:02
You know, just try spread the curb. 00:21:07
So it's just. 00:21:09
It just doesn't make sense to. 00:21:10
To I think it doesn't make sense to try to create a brand new standard for 200 feet of Rd. 00:21:13
Cortana sorry, 20 yards of Rd. 00:21:18
Yes, the last segment. 00:21:21
Nothing else meets that standard. 00:21:23
Why must this when the segment of road right next to it has been functioning perfectly well for the last, I don't know, 20 years, 00:21:25
at least 15? 00:21:29
And so. 00:21:34
There's no, there's no no sense in actually making it wider than needed. 00:21:35
The other thing is, is the beautification on each roads, some roads. 00:21:40
Don't even have a sidewalk on one side aside. 00:21:45
Some of them have trees on one and grass strip and then the other is the sidewalks directly up. 00:21:47
The developer. The person right there living there. 00:21:51
Decided what beautification standards they want and they weren't applied equally. 00:21:55
So this is right in the middle of what it is. 00:22:02
And so. 00:22:05
If the city wants to go and have an argument or a fight. 00:22:06
They can go and do it, and they can build the existing Rd. 00:22:09
But the thing that I really bothers me about. 00:22:14
I'm going to, I'm going to try and stay above. 00:22:19
Board but like. 00:22:21
This property when I bought my home. 00:22:23
The right of way was already. 00:22:27
Sold. So I have no financial gain whatsoever. 00:22:28
Whether it is built? 00:22:32
Or whether it is not? 00:22:33
I'm not going to get the right of way back. I'm not going to. 00:22:34
Get it? There are multiple segments. 00:22:37
In the city where the city takes. 00:22:39
All of it, part of it, or short of it. 00:22:41
There are thousands of parcels in our city that do this. 00:22:43
The other part about the staff report that really bothers me. 00:22:47
Is that in just contacting and I don't know if? 00:22:50
I would love to give some time real quick about the redesign of the plan. The staff comes in and says it would be $30,000. 00:22:52
I asked Sean who's a. 00:22:59
Who's a developer to go through and do this, Sean, Could you stand up and kind of walk about? 00:23:00
The adjustment to the plan and how much it would cost. 00:23:03
Sean Yeah, I'd like you to come talk about it. 00:23:07
So there's a lot of misinformation. 00:23:10
You want to speak to someone else's cost? 00:23:16
Well, if you were to have to redesign the plan and the cost the city put down that it would be $30,000 the redesign, I mean it's 00:23:19
only 800 feet, the redesign of that. 00:23:23
Is a six to eight hour, 10 hour maybe redesign on something that's fairly straightforward and. 00:23:29
They've got most of the data already there. 00:23:35
So if you want a number thrown out, it's 1500 at $2000 to redesign something like that. 00:23:38
So that would be if I was the original. 00:23:44
If I was the original surveyor and. 00:23:48
Engineer on it, which I'm not on this one but. 00:23:50
If we were. 00:23:53
A redesign of that magnitude would be. 00:23:54
A day and 1/2. 00:23:57
How long would that be a professionally stamped design? 00:23:59
By a professional engineer. 00:24:03
100%. 00:24:04
So that's the first problem that I have. The second problem is is the staff put this staff report without me seeing it or anyone 00:24:06
else seeing it or even verifying what was in there. The second thing is, is if it meets fire. 00:24:12
Fire department pavement with. 00:24:18
It's the exact same pavement with in front of the fire station and the road leaving the fire station. 00:24:20
And I don't think the Fire Marshall was. 00:24:25
I asked about that. 00:24:28
David Kyle, do you have that information now about the lawsuit and the process of how much it would cost? 00:24:32
And the time that it would take. 00:24:38
I think it's really relevant because we put in here in the staff that it costs $0.00. 00:24:40
Am I good? Yeah, you're good. OK. 00:24:45
Because I'm going to go line by line to get my integrity back. 00:24:48
Here, though, so I don't know why that would be. Well, I just want my integrity back because everybody comes in here. I'm saying, 00:24:51
hey, this is going to cost $350,000. 00:24:55
On the three people that I called, they asked. 00:24:59
How much blacktop would be involved? How much sidewalk would be involved in? Every single portion goes smaller so the project 00:25:02
would save money. 00:25:06
Also, when we get right down to it. 00:25:10
The If we do follow the plant plan the city proposes, we would have to eminent domain. 00:25:12
A piece of land I use, How about going around it? 00:25:17
That's fine, but if we follow the standard all the way through. 00:25:19
We'll be doing eminent domain in that piece and that will take us a couple of couple of years or more. Let me let me just. 00:25:23
Let me just back up real quick. 00:25:28
The reason why I said that the lawsuits not relevant. 00:25:29
Is if you want a mayor. 00:25:32
That's going to start eminent. 00:25:35
Domain in people's land. 00:25:37
I'm not that guy. 00:25:38
That's just where it's not going to do it like. 00:25:40
Y'all come? Wait, I'm just talking. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna. 00:25:43
Domain land over a. 00:25:46
Trail so. 00:25:47
And I think that we're pretty aligned in that, I mean. 00:25:49
None of us have. 00:25:52
That desire. So that's that's why I said that, that the lawsuits are relevant because it's like. 00:25:53
We're just not going to. I'm just not going to go there. 00:25:58
Like that's just not. 00:26:01
Jesse, about that guy? 00:26:02
On my phone on. 00:26:04
Jesse put it well over $100,000 and our staff put down that it would cost 0. 00:26:06
He they also said that the additional cost designs would be 30,000. That was 100 and 1500. 00:26:12
Every contractor we contacted. 00:26:19
Asked the size of both plans and all three plans and they said that the smallest plan would be the cheapest plan. 00:26:21
So this would save taxpayer dollars? 00:26:27
More money. 00:26:30
And so I'm really disappointed in the way that this went out. 00:26:32
And I'm not going to go through it, but this is the last thing I'll say. 00:26:36
I stood up when nobody stood up when people were traveling the world. 00:26:47
And it I had to go after Steph. 00:26:52
When I had to go and say why is this car here in Disneyland? 00:26:55
Or in. 00:26:59
Vegas. 00:27:01
Why is there a? 00:27:03
A Moab. 00:27:04
Expenditure at a bar for $1800. 00:27:05
Why is there this bank loan? 00:27:09
I'm excited for the time when law enforcement comes in here. 00:27:13
And tells you guys. 00:27:16
That I was the only person that stood up. 00:27:18
Awesome. 00:27:23
Thank you. 00:27:24
So let's start council, let's let's start chatting about this. I want to hear where everybody's at. 00:27:25
Should I start my left? Let's go. Start my left here, Parker, you want to? 00:27:30
Where you at? 00:27:34
Yeah, I have absolutely 0 willingness to eminent domain anything. 00:27:35
Like you said, I think everybody's in agreements with that. I'm also. 00:27:40
Not keen on doing things that raises the burden on taxpayers, especially as I am still. 00:27:43
Trying to make another $1,000,000 in cuts to the cities internal spending over the course of the next year or so. 00:27:50
So it's a big ask. 00:27:57
When you look at, you know. 00:27:59
30% of this potentially as it's being quoted by staff right now. Now I would love to get some additional. 00:28:01
Opinion, maybe insight into what the actual costs as they breakdown are where there could be cost saving efforts. 00:28:07
Because. 00:28:14
I shared the. 00:28:15
Theory that if you're using less material on less land, there's potentially some cost saving benefit, but. 00:28:17
I also AM. 00:28:23
Not keen on adding. 00:28:25
If we don't have to add when it comes to the redesign, the engineering, that kind of stuff. 00:28:28
So the contractors I spoke with. 00:28:32
Sean included. 00:28:35
So that they could maybe turn around in a two week period to be able to get a plan together to be able to execute and I don't know 00:28:36
how long it takes to do the RFP from staff. 00:28:40
But. 00:28:45
They could have those numbers before the vote even. 00:28:46
Took place. 00:28:48
And that would clear my name because that. 00:28:49
$380,000. 00:28:52
More expensive and then the others don't cost on a smaller plan. 00:28:53
I'm excited for the numbers. 00:28:57
OK, awesome chick of wood. 00:29:01
Yeah, I know. I. 00:29:03
Echo, everyone says, I don't think it's in our interest to get in any litigation over. 00:29:04
Emnito meaning any property and if that's the case, I think we should start making plans that require us to. 00:29:08
Do that. 00:29:14
I was there at the meeting of Jacob Holder. I thought was pretty well. 00:29:15
With staff and I think that the best course forward is continuing to. 00:29:18
Talk and see if we can get to a place where there's. 00:29:22
All parties are in agreement moving. 00:29:25
Forward, OK. 00:29:26
Awesome. 00:29:28
David Luray. 00:29:29
Yeah, Jake, I texted you a copy of that that could you. 00:29:30
Pop it up on your screen so we can hold on just a second. 00:29:35
Can we add that Robin as well to the? 00:29:38
I'm not here, Yeah. 00:29:42
That the graphic I sent you create. We had that. 00:29:46
Yeah, OK. 00:29:49
So anyway, I've taken. 00:29:50
A graphic that was included with the. 00:29:53
With a packet with. 00:29:56
Today's agenda. 00:29:58
And I went through and I. 00:29:59
I looked at the. 00:30:01
At the road on the east side of that corner. 00:30:02
Which has been functioning. 00:30:04
Really well for the last 15 years or so and and. 00:30:06
And I looked at it and. 00:30:09
Compared it to the. 00:30:11
OK, the comparison on the other side using the cities. 00:30:12
The city says is. 00:30:15
Councilman Holdaway's concept. 00:30:17
And having talked with him several times about this and. 00:30:19
Walked the land. I can tell you that wasn't his concept. It's been misrepresented here. 00:30:23
And so I've tried to indicate what the concept really was for this graphic. Get it up there, but anyway, we've. 00:30:27
Well, I propose is that we take the the 11. 00:30:35
The current on the east side we restricted a little bit, so instead of being 11. 00:30:37
Foot wide lanes There are 12 foot wide lanes. 00:30:41
And then? 00:30:44
And then the concept calls for a three foot. 00:30:45
Strip for. 00:30:48
What you call embolus, What you call bolsters. Bollards. Bollards. Sorry, bollards. 00:30:50
And then then 25 foot wide cycle tracks. 00:30:55
And then? 00:30:58
A trail. A six foot wide trail. 00:31:00
As a six rate I forget as anyway so. 00:31:02
Whatever the trail is there now, that's what we and that's and that's a pretty nice Rd. 00:31:05
Male profile, it's been working well. People are happy with it now. We were making some adjustments to it. We're actually taking 00:31:09
the bicycle lines lanes around each side of the road and putting it on one side now so that they'll be able to link up very well 00:31:14
with with the with the park, which is further to the east. 00:31:19
And then also connect to what was supposed to be a bicycle Blvd. Eventually on Hallway Rd. 00:31:25
So that those bicycle lanes will be will be, right? 00:31:30
Properly placed to do that. 00:31:34
Also. 00:31:36
On the. 00:31:38
On the West side, over there on the left side. 00:31:39
There is the new road. 00:31:41
And, and we propose there again, 12 foot wide lanes, which is I guess the new standard calls for that. And that would, that's what 00:31:43
it would take. I, I, I think that would be a wise thing to do. 00:31:47
Because it's going to be a collector router or whatever it's called. And we expect that the fire truck that's needed to travel 00:31:52
this road several times a week, whatever. 00:31:56
As we'll make sure it can do that easily. 00:32:00
And then there's supposed to be a 10 foot wide cycle track. They want it raised over here and I don't mind if it's raised or 00:32:02
street level. 00:32:05
And then the sidewalk of the same dimensions as the sidewalk on the. 00:32:08
He sighed. And so this this configuration continues. The figuration has been successful. 00:32:13
For. 00:32:19
For years and it doesn't take any more property from anybody else, does not require we condemn any property or do the public 00:32:19
domain. 00:32:23
And it would not seem to me that would be it would be a huge engineering expense as we're probably keeping the pipes in the same 00:32:27
place they would have been otherwise. 00:32:31
So I don't, I don't see this to be much expense for the city. 00:32:36
And it's a great compromise and I I really commend Councilman Holdaway's work to get it to this point. 00:32:39
You know, I, I'm thankful that you. 00:32:45
You know, I tried to push staff to get it to be. 00:32:47
Exact and we ran with it. But yeah, these have the the. 00:32:50
Little adjustments to make it a little bit better. The one thing that I would just say, and I know there's a lot of emotion for me 00:32:54
because. 00:32:57
You know. 00:33:01
To have something. 00:33:02
Hidden in December to this new standard that. 00:33:03
Didn't know cities ever done. 00:33:06
With knowing from the previous. 00:33:09
Administration. 00:33:11
This is the last segment to stick it to me. It really bothers me and it really bought the putt like. 00:33:13
The social media stuff it it really does. 00:33:18
Because. 00:33:21
The the money of like, hey, this plan costs more. It's just. 00:33:22
Garbage so. 00:33:26
The last thing though, that I would say is. 00:33:28
Go talk to my dad. 00:33:30
My dad is the only the first person in Vineyard City. 00:33:32
Across the Lakeshore, that came and said. 00:33:36
I'm going to donate 1/4 mile. 00:33:38
Of path. 00:33:41
Not being funded for it. 00:33:42
For Wakara, away. 00:33:44
When others didn't. 00:33:46
When my father stood forth and did the lowest density on Sleepy Ridge Golf Course. 00:33:47
And donated more open space than anyone else in the city. 00:33:52
And then other developments went higher standards higher, with less green space. 00:33:56
You know what he did hate that the standard was different. 00:34:01
It bothered him because he kept his word. 00:34:04
And so now to have his name thrown out now. 00:34:07
Where he goes, you guys are holding me to a standard that nobody else does. I'm going to dig in. 00:34:10
And so it's not asking for. 00:34:15
Special treatment. 00:34:17
It's asking for this is right in the middle of what everyone else is being treated to the east of him. 00:34:19
And the last thing is. 00:34:24
I have no financial gain. 00:34:27
I don't gain anything but. 00:34:29
We do get to control. 00:34:31
How it is designed beautifully because we're every other neighborhood has had that right to do that that way. 00:34:33
Nobody else's. 00:34:39
Dictated how it's. 00:34:40
Designed. 00:34:41
So awesome. Ezra, were you at on this? 00:34:42
Well, you brought up saving costs being the number one priority, so I proposed a budget. 00:34:47
Couple of weeks ago. 00:34:52
That would significantly reduce costs. 00:34:53
Overall for the city. 00:34:56
If we want to talk about cost savings, I'd love to revisit that. 00:34:58
Obviously these. 00:35:01
In the staff report we're talking about. 00:35:03
Additional costs and reconstruction so. 00:35:06
I was wondering if maybe we could hear from staff on those. I mean, they all say approximately nobody's saying that. 00:35:08
This is the definitive cause, but do we have the RFP bids? 00:35:14
That came together. And no, these are just estimates from staff. Yeah. So this would be what staff can roughly approximate. 00:35:17
Given the amount of time that they've had to look through this, but. 00:35:24
I mean, obviously. 00:35:28
Not changing anything. 00:35:29
We're saved. It looks like none of these could be constructed until. 00:35:32
2027 on the timeline. 00:35:35
The the contractors we worked with so they could do the redesign in seven to 10 days. 00:35:38
And we're talking about time as. 00:35:44
And in general. 00:35:46
So I'd love to. 00:35:47
I mean, we've got hard costs and we've got soft costs as well, so. 00:35:48
We should consider both of those. 00:35:52
Because the more time we spend. 00:35:54
Like reviewing this and first of all this, this planet here. 00:35:56
Where we've got the curb in two different spots. 00:36:00
I don't think that's a good idea. 00:36:02
We should have the curb. 00:36:04
At the same spot. Otherwise you have people coming to the intersection of different ways. That's been a huge problem. 00:36:05
On this road already. 00:36:10
And other areas where we have different curbs from east to West. 00:36:11
I just don't think that makes any sense whatsoever. We went out this morning and I can show you over 20 different locations 00:36:15
throughout the city where the curbs do not line because. 00:36:20
Every single time you go to the 15 different sections. 00:36:24
The curbs. 00:36:28
Don't align. 00:36:29
There's 15 different roads on all those. Those are all. 00:36:29
Right, that's what I'm saying is like. 00:36:32
Like everyone. 00:36:34
Goes it's like you want to save money. We should have had a plan 20 years ago to have a standard and it would have been amazing 00:36:35
and I agree. 00:36:38
We got to do what we can on the last. 00:36:42
On the last segment, let's. 00:36:44
Yeah, I don't think it's a good idea to say just because things were wrong in the past, we should just continue that. 00:36:45
Right. So we're not building another Collector Rd. 00:36:50
What was that? Where are we building another collector Rd. through residential property? 00:36:53
Well, I mean if you just look at this one like. 00:36:58
This is. 00:37:00
Where we're adding. 00:37:01
Pretty significant development to. 00:37:03
East West, we've already gone through our transportation master plan process. 00:37:05
We have all the road networks on there. There's. 00:37:09
Pretty extensive public process where people said we want. 00:37:11
To make sure that we're planning out multi and and there are safety plans for the Clegg development hit and exceeded it above and 00:37:14
beyond and it's not. 00:37:18
We're not changing the. 00:37:23
The other three plans, it's still the 12 lane Rd. of traffic so. 00:37:24
That's the other problem outline. It's like. 00:37:28
All four plans. 00:37:30
The traffic doesn't stay the same, is no different. 00:37:31
And the sidewalks and, and so it's, it's all consistent. 00:37:35
So there's no like. 00:37:39
Online of going like we're going to have some skinny Rd. that's going to go less traffic. It's like there's no difference between 00:37:41
the four plans. 00:37:44
Well, the curb and gutter right there is. It's the curb and gutter we're talking about the traffic that goes through the entire 00:37:48
portial. 00:37:50
I want to make sure the entire roadway. 00:37:53
Is consistent having a curve that. 00:37:55
Smaller going. 00:37:58
East and West on an intersection to me is a bad idea. So. 00:38:00
So that said, I want to can I add a thought or an interjection and it's just to play devil's advocate with the logic and the 00:38:03
thought experiment here. Go ahead, Parker. 00:38:07
Even with the currently. 00:38:11
Approved plan. 00:38:13
Which is. 00:38:16
The closest plan to, I think, what David Larae you had presented on. 00:38:17
Three months ago that we had general consensus with. 00:38:21
Even if you follow that. 00:38:25
There's not a match between the East. 00:38:27
Of Holdaway Rd. 00:38:32
And the West of. 00:38:33
Keith Holdaways property because the road widths are already built and they're not the same. 00:38:35
So there is still. 00:38:40
A shrinking and a lack of consistency there that would either require eminent domain. 00:38:42
On. 00:38:47
Other homes, Properties. 00:38:48
Or you have to essentially concede. 00:38:50
That there is a shrinkage. 00:38:53
And that's what happens on every Rd. is they just randomly. So let me go back to my opinion. 00:38:56
So I'm saying. 00:39:01
If we're going to change the design, which. 00:39:03
I'm actually. 00:39:05
Fine eating additional costs if it's just going to put this matter to rest. 00:39:07
That we should not do. 00:39:11
The sidewalk or whatever that. 00:39:14
That trail that's being proposed, where the curb comes out. 00:39:16
That we should go with. 00:39:18
One of the. 00:39:20
Consistent roadway with. 00:39:22
Ideas. 00:39:24
But. 00:39:25
We should, I mean, if you guys really want to, if you guys want to go back to the compromise and bring, you know, I told staff 00:39:26
this to the table. 00:39:30
You know, umm. 00:39:33
We burn bridges and and bringing people together. 00:39:34
And I know me and the mayor have talked to. 00:39:38
The different parties. This isn't just my dad. 00:39:41
It's we're talking about 3 different jurisdictions of three different mayors making three different promises and having three 00:39:43
different design standards. 00:39:47
And then the last person getting thrown this and so it's like. 00:39:51
I mean. 00:39:57
We're wasting more per hour. I think we're we. 00:39:58
Charging 4 or $500.00 an hour just for us talking. 00:40:01
And we've done this for five. 00:40:04
Meetings in a row. 00:40:06
So the. 00:40:08
The for the public record, we're not actually paid hourly. No, not our. I'm just saying, yeah, the more we toss and lower our 00:40:10
hours raising 30, this person that's 20, it's like it's ridiculous how much, you know, just the staff meetings in order to get to 00:40:15
this point, you know, so. 00:40:20
But but in working with the contractors to go through and do that. 00:40:25
Like. 00:40:29
Everyone of them. 00:40:30
Their heart up for. 00:40:31
For work right now. 00:40:32
Even the ones that came out earlier. 00:40:34
It's about just doing the RFP real quick. 00:40:36
I have a full confidence that this can be put in before October. 00:40:39
Even at the having Sean do the RFP for 1500 and having it stamped and done. 00:40:43
And the contractors to be able to. 00:40:48
To whip it in there's there's enough workout there to get done. 00:40:50
So did you have more comments, Ezra? 00:40:53
Yes, so. 00:40:57
So can we pull up the map of what? 00:40:59
What? 00:41:03
You know, we're talking about as far as making things consistent. 00:41:04
Because I also forums current I don't like the cycle track idea, I'll also share that agree. Thank having the. 00:41:07
Bike lanes on either side of the road consistent with the traffic makes a lot more sense everywhere that I know of in the county 00:41:13
where they've tried a cycle track. 00:41:17
Has if you guys want to go back and. 00:41:21
Do the negotiation. I'm more than welcome to blow it up and go do it. 00:41:24
Like for what? 00:41:29
Like. 00:41:31
If you guys. 00:41:31
Are choosing like. 00:41:32
The lane on this side or the right side? 00:41:34
Let's just match the existing traffic pattern. 00:41:37
Right. But in meeting with Orem and me and Sean were there. 00:41:40
In October. 00:41:43
And that's what's so frustrating about staff is. 00:41:45
In September, October we had two massive traffic problems where on 600 N. 00:41:47
Out of the blue, Marty and Sarah wanted to shrink down the road to this exact same size Rd. 00:41:54
And Karen will remember it where they just put parking. 00:42:00
And staff moved heaven and earth in five days. They did a study and they went and moved it and they got it approved. Let's. 00:42:03
Just wanna make sure. And then the second thing, hold on mayor on the on this specific section because this applies. 00:42:08
Orum. Hey, dude. 00:42:14
And they repainted it. 00:42:15
They repainted between the park and the other because the line was there and Sean was ****** *** about it. 00:42:17
His entire neighborhood came to me and said we don't like the repainting. 00:42:22
And. 00:42:26
It didn't go through planning, it didn't go through master planning, it didn't go through anything and the seam went and painted 00:42:27
it. 00:42:29
We threw Orem under the bus when we got on a Zoom with Oram and Oram said. 00:42:32
We will design it however you want. 00:42:36
And that's when. 00:42:38
Nate Riley came in and said look. 00:42:39
This is what we were promised back. 00:42:41
Going uh. 00:42:43
Many different. 00:42:44
And I'm going to get reelected on this because this is how many people in this neighborhood wanted that done. God. 00:42:45
Let's let's. 00:42:50
Keep the scope of the conversation. Just wanted to make sure there's there's a lot of issues with four South. 00:42:51
Heaven knows, but let's just try to keep this go to kind of yeah, I just down. 00:42:56
Just want to hold the way Rd. West or will change it to whatever the scope yeah they. 00:43:02
Both bike paths on the north. 00:43:07
We've just spoken with them. That was in December of last year. 00:43:08
OK, Council, what direction? 00:43:12
Should we give to staff on this issue? 00:43:15
I'd like to hear from staff what their thoughts are and. 00:43:17
Where some of these estimates came through? 00:43:20
And then also we have. 00:43:23
Development agreement like that. 00:43:25
That's the biggest thing. This is all assuming that. 00:43:26
Our developers will agree to changes to the development agreement which. 00:43:29
There were no specs in the development agreement on this specific section. It would just say that it would be futurely built. 00:43:33
Unless did they just recently sign something? 00:43:39
That you would do it. 00:43:43
So that's another thing where. 00:43:46
When we're talking about. 00:43:48
Yeah. 00:43:50
To do our. 00:43:53
Yeah, so they're good to go. 00:43:54
No, I'm saying you would the development agreement agree. 00:43:56
Have to be amended. 00:43:59
Yeah, to change, but we own the property. So you building a skinnier Rd. does it, It doesn't dictate the size of Rd. in the 00:44:00
development. We already read that. 00:44:04
Jamie, Jesse already read through. 00:44:07
OK. 00:44:15
This is honesty, I'm just the city may be better if the if they spoke into the microphone. 00:44:16
Come on. Yeah, Come on, Brian. 00:44:22
You're saying on your part, no, they don't know. 00:44:27
The the city owns the right of way on my property and keys. 00:44:29
Right, and the other property. 00:44:32
You've already built the road. 00:44:34
To specifications. 00:44:35
I know. But the development, how would you control what was built on? I'm not trying to control anything, Jake. I'm not trying to 00:44:37
control. Yeah, but it wouldn't be reoffering you offering. 00:44:41
A point of view is that. 00:44:45
The development agreement outlines what that right of way is supposed to be, and the city agreed to the right of way being. 00:44:46
What it was going to be. 00:44:53
And so. 00:44:55
To go back and change what the city, what it's going to be, I mean from a developer's purpose. 00:44:55
Perspective like. 00:44:59
We built. 00:45:00
And you know, my opinion of 4 S, it was probably oversized from the beginning, but it was done. It was that way. We're wider than 00:45:02
even what? 00:45:05
Is in front of your property if you know we go to you and but that's but that's but that ship has sailed. It's done and so for for 00:45:08
us. 00:45:12
Like getting people into our development right now is a disaster. 00:45:16
Like they can't. 00:45:19
They have to come over a viaduct, come down Center St. find their way on Main Street. We've been focused on getting this road in 00:45:20
and now you come in and it's a safety concern because. 00:45:25
We've got. 00:45:30
Unfinished Rd. on one side of the road because we can't complete the right of way as it was. As discussed, we got to solve the 00:45:30
problem, but necking it down to. 00:45:35
220 to 24 feet. 00:45:39
Going into a massive roundabout in a beautiful 4 S doesn't make any sense from our perspective from a remarkable committed. We got 00:45:41
into your house and your model home and you said you agreed with the width of the road and and David Larae was there right when we 00:45:47
spoke with you and you agreed to the width of the road. How? 00:45:52
We talked to you about going down to skinning it down to make it safer where our houses are. I'm not going to have, I'm not gonna 00:45:57
have anybody put words into what I said or didn't say. I'm giving you, I'm answering your question. Let him answer the question, 00:46:02
which was the development, which was the development agreement. 00:46:08
Has specific. 00:46:13
Widths and sizes of what this? 00:46:15
Right of way should be. 00:46:17
And it would need to be amended if it's going to be changed. 00:46:18
Could you pull up? 00:46:21
Could you pull up the county parcel map? 00:46:23
To show. 00:46:25
I mean, there's a potential. 00:46:26
Solution to this whole problem if you're willing to look at it I'm willing to look at it, but I just want to make clear that when 00:46:28
the whole. 00:46:31
A referendum on your property. 00:46:37
Came through, thousands of people signed it. The number one thing you said was we will do what the people want done. 00:46:39
Do you remember? 00:46:46
You said that in an open meeting, Yeah. 00:46:47
Jake let's let's no, I'm saying on the road I'm not on because they were so concerned, right question. What I'm saying is that 00:46:50
Jake. 00:46:53
These people came and said, let Ryan answer the question, amount of traffic and. 00:46:57
And all of the people on this road said. 00:47:01
No, you're laughing, but Sean's here in the meeting about who ran. They don't even know who Sean is. I know, but running the 00:47:03
referendum about the safety of this road was critical to those citizens. So I'm just holding you to so because you came into open 00:47:08
meeting and said I haven't come at you on anything. I'm not sure. But you came into open meeting and said we will make the road 00:47:13
according to let Ryan talk, bro. 00:47:18
This is OK. 00:47:24
Or just answering your question, what was a development agreement in place? And if there's a, there's a potential solution that I 00:47:26
could offer if you pull up the map and I'll and I'll. 00:47:30
And I'll suggest something. 00:47:34
That could, but I can't do it because no one's going to understand what's being said if you have the county parcel map. 00:47:35
Pull it up and put it on the screen. 00:47:41
I'm all about safety. I think safety ought to be the biggest concern here, but for South. 00:47:49
When you when you put. 00:47:53
Cycle track lanes on the same side of the road going West with the sun setting. 00:47:55
You're going to people are going to get killed riding their bikes going that direction. I think that's a dumb idea in my opinion. 00:47:59
And not having curb alignment is is interesting as well. 00:48:04
Pull down on Keith's property. 00:48:09
So in my experience as a developer, anytime you can get a deeper lot instead of a wider narrower lot. 00:48:12
Is more valuable. 00:48:17
Because you have depth, you provide a front yard and a backyard. 00:48:19
We would be willing. 00:48:23
To give Keith. 00:48:25
However much property he would like. 00:48:26
North of his property, swap the land. 00:48:29
Its cost neutral to everybody. 00:48:32
Give him 20 feet on that side, it's a great idea and that makes that lot deeper for him. 00:48:35
And he gives up 400 square feet. We give him a. 00:48:40
2000 square feet on that side, that makes that lot in the future for him more valuable because. 00:48:42
That home at some point. 00:48:48
Probably is going to get torn down. 00:48:49
And now he can put a nice home that has a backyard and depth on it there and potentially that. 00:48:51
Solves the value property for Keith. I don't know if it's a value property or not value. 00:48:56
So what's it about? 00:49:02
That shatter on all the way home, that's the foundational home of Vineyard. 00:49:04
He's not going to tear that down. 00:49:08
My argument still is, it still provides additional value. Just an idea. I'm just tossing it out as an idea. I don't know what 00:49:09
everybody's. 00:49:13
Like motivations are here, so we brought down. 00:49:16
And agree to disagree. We brought Bike Walk Provo down to walk the road. 00:49:20
And they themselves said that you have two different cyclists. 00:49:25
You have a. 00:49:28
A fast cyclist, that. 00:49:29
Right on the road and they go just the speed limit and you shouldn't be concerned about that. What you should be concerned about 00:49:32
in this area. 00:49:35
Is elementary, but drive elementary bikers. 00:49:38
That are going to and from the park. 00:49:41
And school down into your development and they advise. 00:49:44
Trying to change. You did the research on it and they and they came down. I'm just giving you, I'm just giving you my opinion, 00:49:50
Aaron came and said. 00:49:52
Hey, you have them crossing into the park on that? 00:49:55
On that path, keep the bike path consistent. 00:49:58
I would, I would protect. 00:50:01
Children. 00:50:03
Because you're getting hundreds of them. 00:50:04
And you're not getting any biker, you're getting 5 to 6 a day on the. 00:50:06
The speed bike, but they write they drive on the road anyway. 00:50:09
And so prioritizing children was the I'm just saying about children walking on a sidewalk with the curb and gutters protection 00:50:12
instead of riding bikes on the asphalt in the same direction of a vehicle. 00:50:17
They did recommend, I would have, I would not let my children do that, but they they did recommend putting a small gutter like 00:50:22
they like doing a raised thing here. And we, we raised that with staff, but from a. 00:50:27
From a cost perspective, something that I don't understand, is all the work that you're doing wet E, is that already budgeted or 00:50:33
are you? 00:50:36
Is that already cost that you're already? 00:50:39
Going to plan on doing regardless because if you match the right of way on the West you don't have to do bollards and a curb and 00:50:41
add bike lane. No, we strike the whole Rd. We're not spending more money is it not? 00:50:46
No, because on the east all we are is adding ballards and repainting all you are is adding ballards is a lot you're you're re 00:50:52
striping the road which is. 00:50:56
Orem is willing to pay for that, right? And you're adding Ballard and Ballers are 19 to $21.00 a piece? 00:51:00
Depending on and and I'm all over on projects and they're not and they're talking about dollars apiece. It's thousands of dollars. 00:51:07
And you can, I think it's between $2000 and $3000 and the neighborhood offered to. 00:51:14
Combined pay forum. We're talking. 00:51:19
Pennies. Great. 00:51:21
I'm really glad that we're having this debate though, because like. 00:51:22
Every time I get thrown something that it's good thing to question it, but sometimes it'll go back to staff and it'll be like 00:51:25
bollards. Do you know they threw us out a cost of $100,000? 00:51:30
Jake, let's again, let's not get off into the. 00:51:35
Bollard weed here. 00:51:38
So thank you, Ryan. 00:51:39
Thanks, Ryan. 00:51:42
Naseem. 00:51:44
Brian. 00:51:47
Time. I'm going to turn the time over to NASIM. 00:51:51
Answer the questions about cost. 00:51:54
As for what? What questions did you have? 00:52:04
Food staff. 00:52:06
I just how you guys got to the cost approximations and? 00:52:10
What your professional opinion on what? 00:52:16
We should do. 00:52:18
Cool. So Nassim Gandora by the works director. So I just want to start off sorry before I want to apologize, I don't. 00:52:21
Think berating stuff. 00:52:27
From the dais is ever a good idea. 00:52:28
So, umm. 00:52:30
That was not cool. 00:52:32
I'll just put that on the record. 00:52:33
I appreciate that and I think staff, us and staff appreciates that. So just wanted to go on the record that. 00:52:35
Excuse me. So when we put these cost estimates together, we do. We put these cost estimates together based on planning concepts. 00:52:44
Trying to keep in mind. 00:52:51
The cost and time efforts that would go into full complete designs. 00:52:53
Just to get to a, excuse me, just to get to be able to do, to be able to do a. 00:52:57
A what they call engineer cost breakdown. 00:53:02
Or a. 00:53:05
I mean those people use Ars means say more. 00:53:07
Step by step cost breakdown. So we do a lot of. 00:53:10
Conceptual planning estimates. 00:53:12
In order to be able to provide. 00:53:15
Council, the information. 00:53:17
The information in order for them to make the educate decisions on that. So I really want to caveat with that. 00:53:20
On that by number means, was any of these costs? 00:53:27
To be representative is. 00:53:30
Hard, fast costs. 00:53:31
And of course, as we go through this, we do rely on consultants and contractors and so forth to provide those costs to us as well. 00:53:33
So the. 00:53:41
For one to address the question in regards to the design cost, we spoke with the design engineer, the Kim Foster with Ave. 00:53:43
Consultants in regards to. 00:53:48
The scope of work that would be required to make changes based on the. 00:53:53
Excuse me, based on the alternatives that were being presented. 00:53:59
And based on the based on. 00:54:02
There that that design engineers feedback in regards to what the amount of work that would be required to do that. 00:54:06
We put that into the cost being about. 00:54:11
Her words and like I put anything that's not that she didn't tell me in her words, she told me about $24,000. 00:54:15
Of work innocence because. 00:54:22
That would have the. 00:54:24
Proposed concept design. 00:54:26
Impacted drainage specifically. 00:54:28
And the drainage was and the drainage from. 00:54:31
Not just. 00:54:35
That small section, but the drainage all the way to the roundabout and maybe even a little bit further. 00:54:36
So in essence. 00:54:41
The feedback was that. 00:54:43
About $24,000 maybe be able to keep the surveying information. 00:54:46
On that and then going through and going through that information. So we budget about $30,000 to be a little bit safer on that. 00:54:50
And then I do want caveat that prior to this meeting. 00:54:58
Also that Councilmember Mccumber did ask for it more additional detail when it comes to cost because. 00:55:02
In essence specifically. 00:55:07
A representation that there was going to be 0 cost to a particular alternative was not meant to be construed as that is. 00:55:09
That was a baseline cost. 00:55:17
Of what was budgeted in any additional cost. 00:55:18
Whether it's positive or minus was what we were expecting, so I did provide Councilmember Mccumber an updated cost table. 00:55:21
That has the approximate cost to build this segment. 00:55:29
And then? 00:55:32
The additional. 00:55:33
Cost, whether it's positive or negative next to each. 00:55:34
Next to each option as well. 00:55:38
On that. 00:55:41
He did also ask about. 00:55:42
And I appreciate these questions because again, these questions help us fine tune our costs. 00:55:44
About what the cost separate from? 00:55:49
Other types of analysis would have to be done, even questioning why we would have to do it analysis if the gross. 00:55:52
Staying at 2 lane roads. 00:55:59
Currently. 00:56:01
On all the designs and the answer to that. 00:56:02
I'll be brief about is that the Roe classification is a collector Rd. 00:56:05
And we recognize that. 00:56:09
Currently that we would like to have it as A2 lane Rd. with bikes but as the 2050 transportation master plan. 00:56:12
Projected egg. 00:56:19
About this being collector Rd. not the last collector Rd. that we would have to build. We would have to build 12 under N We would 00:56:20
have to build 400 N. 00:56:23
Mill Road Ext. 00:56:26
Cross my fingers in 2028. 00:56:29
Would have to be built as well, so. 00:56:32
The efforts of changing this to a three. 00:56:34
Three Lane Rd. 00:56:38
In the future would be. 00:56:39
A restriction project. 00:56:42
So on that and as much as you know, I like to. 00:56:44
Not restripe things and work with the partners. 00:56:49
Something like this would just be restriving. 00:56:51
On that so the hence why. 00:56:53
The railway section itself. 00:56:55
Was. 00:56:58
We put down 0 cost for the transportation master plan updates and so forth because we would have to put that into consideration. 00:57:01
The additional cost for rework. 00:57:07
We put in there. We estimated that for the alignment on that from what the. 00:57:10
The developer Brian Bybee. 00:57:15
Had done on the West side. 00:57:17
On the weather alignment changing the making a significant change and we did confirm with the design engineer they're making that 00:57:20
significant change. 00:57:23
For the proposed concept. 00:57:27
Would require a realignment of the existing roadway that was. 00:57:30
Currently built by Alka. 00:57:33
In order to. 00:57:36
Make sure that the curvatures of the road are not sharp. 00:57:38
We're putting safety in mind. 00:57:41
That being said, even and playing devil's advocate, betting it. 00:57:45
With multiple other engineers. 00:57:49
I'll point to him. 00:57:52
We estimate that we would have to go back to. 00:57:53
The roundabout section. 00:57:57
So in essence, having to. 00:57:58
Build about 200 linear feet of roadway that's currently built. We did add some costs like $50,000. 00:58:01
So $200,000 roughly. 00:58:07
Based on. 00:58:09
A cost estimate that we received in April 2026. 00:58:11
For the segment. 00:58:15
Of. 00:58:17
For in itself that we're obligated to do and we. 00:58:19
Utilize that cost. 00:58:22
In order to determine what the rework. 00:58:23
Cost would be. 00:58:26
Adding about $50,000 for demolition work, Which? 00:58:27
Maybe a little bit too low. 00:58:29
But we do have great public works people who love to. 00:58:31
Use of equipment and tear things apart. 00:58:34
Moving forward. 00:58:39
I'm not gonna go through every scenario this day. 00:58:41
Just over the cavalries. 00:58:43
On the utility relocation, existing sewer and water. 00:58:45
The water was minimal, in fact I think it was irrigation line about. 00:58:48
That was done in order to utilize the Orem City reuse. 00:58:52
Wine that we're planning on bringing it over. 00:58:56
But. 00:58:59
Bigger cost on that was a sewer line. 00:59:00
That the city invested money on that. 00:59:02
Again, it was. 00:59:05
Through Cadence Homes. 00:59:06
Agreement that we have as through a better rent. 00:59:08
To extend the sewer line to the Keith hole. 00:59:10
Just South of the Keith Holloway property in order to get them on sewer. 00:59:13
We estimate that. 00:59:16
With a new alignment we would have to. 00:59:17
Remove and. 00:59:21
Reinstall about 100 linear feet. 00:59:22
Correct. About 100 liter feet of sewer line as well as manholes. 00:59:25
Now wait a second. You're moving 100 feet. I know exactly where that is. What are you saying? 00:59:29
100 feet. Yes, Sir. 00:59:34
Unrelenting feed. 00:59:36
Exactly. But you on all four plans you have to do the same. 00:59:37
We're not really, because those are installed. 00:59:40
That's currently installed. 00:59:43
So we wouldn't be relocating. You're going from the same point of reference on all four. 00:59:44
Maybe I don't understand you, Sir. 00:59:49
I guess the point of reference of where the sewer starts is not. It's not, it's already installed. 00:59:51
We're going to say, Parker, I was going to ask, why does changing the surface require a change of the? 00:59:57
Sewer, you want to elaborate on that powder? 01:00:03
So the the. 01:00:06
I'm sorry. 01:00:10
The manhole's already put in. 01:00:15
Sorry we didn't invest in longer cables. 01:00:20
It wasn't in the budget. 01:00:23
So we we installed a sewer line, as Naseem said, with the narrower amount of payment. 01:00:24
The the manhole that was just installed would be in the curb and gutter which is not not a good idea. So then just adjust it to 01:00:30
go. 01:00:34
Right. But that depends on when you cut it. I was out there yesterday. That's not an additional cost because that's the same 01:00:39
point. And this is the thing that bothers me is like. 01:00:43
When we talk about. 01:00:47
Catching you guys. 01:00:49
Hey, dude. 01:00:52
Dude, the same financial crap. 01:00:52
Let's let. 01:00:55
So hey guys it's hard to hold people accountable but you know you guys laugh but get the only one that gets to talk but get the 01:00:56
but get the 2. 01:01:01
Go through both audits. 01:01:05
But go through both off. 01:01:08
Go through both Jays guys. 01:01:12
Jake letting the same continue. 01:01:13
Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks. SO. 01:01:17
To clarify that to. 01:01:19
Thank you. To kind of reiterate about the planning level of cost estimates, if during the design phase and so forth, we determined 01:01:21
that cost could be. 01:01:26
Lower than theirs could be cost savings. We as staff, we would definitely be taking that opportunity. 01:01:31
I guess if you would like, if Council would like to consider. 01:01:37
The options and removing the sewer line out 100%. 01:01:40
And taken into account that maybe this is done on, you know, costs are adjusted upwards on an as needed basis, I guess that is the 01:01:43
privilege of the Council to do as well. 01:01:47
Hence why we try to break the cost down to. 01:01:52
Classifications to say. 01:01:55
On those type of things in order to this to give Council that as much information as possible upfront. 01:01:57
Again, uh. 01:02:02
Questions like. 01:02:04
Council Member Mccumber. 01:02:04
Yesterday and today. 01:02:06
Helped allow us to kind of fine tune things as well because, you know, we were able to capture. 01:02:08
Cost that we originally did not associate. 01:02:13
Include and then of course. 01:02:15
Fine tune. 01:02:17
There's other costs which were, you know, maybe a little bit more cost savings for other alternatives as well. 01:02:19
So that's in a nutshell. That's how we. 01:02:24
Came down through the costs. 01:02:26
We're happy to. 01:02:27
Move forward in a direction and to get the more finite costs. 01:02:29
However, that does take time. 01:02:32
And efforts in order to do and again based on direction of counsel we're. 01:02:34
Happy with that direction. 01:02:38
Can I ask? 01:02:40
Question Naseem, earlier you were presenting. 01:02:42
I'm curious what? 01:02:46
Constitutes the requirement from the city to make a. 01:02:47
Rode the three lane model and re stripe it. 01:02:51
Is that part of the new design code or is that something that is set in a county or a state code? 01:02:54
Again, it's based on traffic volumes and so when we did our transportation master plan. 01:03:01
Which took about or. 01:03:07
But I think over a year to get done. 01:03:08
Through. 01:03:10
The analysis and presented that. 01:03:12
Council through multiple public hearings. 01:03:15
In essence, we would. 01:03:18
And excuse me, monitor. 01:03:20
How the traffic flow, the transportation master plan, if I'm not mistaken, Patrick, you know it was correct me, but. 01:03:22
2025 and then we also have 2035 and then 2050. I'm not mistaken. 01:03:29
Oh, now, so it would kind of be triggered based on volumes. We would, it's all projection. We would hope that. 01:03:35
You know I. 01:03:40
The plans are. 01:03:42
Align but every. 01:03:44
Every 5, excuse me, every 10 years, the city should be doing a revision. Revisit that the transportation master plan. 01:03:46
In every time sooner we're able to do a traffic flow analysis. 01:03:53
To ensure that there were kind of abiding to that. 01:03:57
Aspects. 01:04:01
The roadway when constructed, regardless which alternative it happens. 01:04:02
Would be we were expected to do pavement preservation within like five to seven years more likely on that. 01:04:07
And of course, prior to doing that. 01:04:13
We would revisit to see if. 01:04:15
Restriping to meet the requirements would be necessary. 01:04:17
And of course, if we're being close to the threshold, then we would just go ahead and trigger. 01:04:21
Every striping all that. Of course we would. 01:04:26
Ensure that we're. 01:04:28
You know, collaborating with our partners, Orem City. 01:04:29
In terms of their side as well and then of course our side and we do have good relate working relationship with the owners city in 01:04:33
terms of striving. 01:04:37
Kettle, thank you. 01:04:40
Thank you. 01:04:42
All righty, Council. 01:04:43
I would just make a motion that we. 01:04:46
Put it out forbid. 01:04:48
Because we have such discrepancy in what the private sector tells us versus what our staff. 01:04:50
And let the open market compete for the redesign. 01:04:54
And also the cost to do it. 01:04:58
There's many people willing to do the work, yeah. 01:05:00
I don't know and they can get the. I don't know if RFP is needed, but I think we could. 01:05:02
Obviously looking tighten up some cost as we have a better information. So I think that that's. 01:05:07
Well taken. Let's do this. 01:05:11
Let's get better costs. 01:05:13
Tighten it up. 01:05:17
I'm interested in having the conversation with Ryan. 01:05:18
And Keith? 01:05:20
I think that that's a good solution. 01:05:22
For for the city. 01:05:24
So let's do this. Let's go. 01:05:26
Let's keep working on this, get some more information and circle back. 01:05:28
To see if we can. 01:05:33
Get this classification. You cool with that Parker? 01:05:34
Yeah, I'd like to. 01:05:36
Maybe scrutinize the cost estimates a little bit and also consult with our legal representation. 01:05:38
OK, Jake, again with that. Yeah, absolutely. OK. 01:05:43
You guys good with that? 01:05:45
OK, they're chatting so. 01:05:47
As we said, yes. 01:05:49
OK, awesome. Well, let's talk about the fun stuff now. 01:05:51
Let's get on to. 01:05:53
Holden, we want to go over. 01:05:55
He's already standing these electrical dirt bikes. 01:05:59
Sorry, Mayor. 01:06:03
Did we agree to get more specific design costs? 01:06:04
On all this stuff, yeah. 01:06:07
Design and the rework and the utility. OK, The thing is that's what we then that's what I told you. 01:06:08
Yes, we're having a sign. No, you're having a side. That's fine. That was that's intense so. 01:06:14
I want to be clear that that allows for. 01:06:19
Private sector contractors to just grab some feedback on it because I actually believe this is. 01:06:22
An extreme cost savings. I called four of them today. 01:06:28
Yeah, and they looked at it and they were like, this is the easiest. 01:06:31
Everyone of them quoted me less than six hours to get it done. 01:06:34
Good. Awesome. 01:06:38
All right. 01:06:39
You asked if I was excited. The answer is no. 01:06:42
Let's talk about dirt bikes. 01:06:45
All right, Rap scallions. He's arresting, I guess, first of all. 01:06:47
My plan was just to go over. 01:06:53
The new laws and some of the things that are going to be changing and talk about the enforcement that we've been doing. 01:06:55
And then potentially some of the ordinances are our local orders need to be changed. 01:07:00
However, I don't know what the intention was for the for this to be on the agenda. If there's questions you have, I'm happy to. 01:07:04
Go through those first or I can go through a few things, then we can do questions out. 01:07:10
Let's go through a few things and let's let's open up for questions. 01:07:13
OK, so recently the state changed the law on electric mobility devices, especially the higher powered ones like the electric 01:07:17
motorcycles, things like that. 01:07:21
They also set forth. 01:07:25
Some changes that happen until the requirement for helmets, a bunch of different law changes that. 01:07:27
Some of them took effect this year, some of them they will take effects next year. 01:07:32
And it's a little bit convoluted if you've ever gotten into. 01:07:37
What the different? 01:07:40
Classifications of E bikes and stuff are. 01:07:41
There's a lot of definitions. 01:07:44
So. 01:07:45
The first type is motor assisted scooters. 01:07:46
These ones are pretty straightforward. We all know what these are. As long as they're going under 20 miles an hour, they call it, 01:07:48
they would classify as this. 01:07:51
They require a. 01:07:55
Basically a bicycle helmet style helmet the new state law does spell out. 01:07:56
Types of helmets to be worn with different types of. 01:08:01
Of devices. 01:08:04
Which I know is a question from the public before on the motor assisted scooters. 01:08:06
They really the helmets and they can't be operated by individuals. 01:08:11
Under 8 on right now it says under 8 on public property, highway path or sidewalk. 01:08:18
One of the things you'll notice as we go through this initially the state outlawed things on. 01:08:24
Public property, highway, path or sidewalk. 01:08:29
Or trails. 01:08:32
In 2027, they're taking that off and they're just simply going to be. 01:08:34
The estate law will simply address highway, so the roadways. 01:08:39
And it'll leave the sidewalks, paths and trails up to the local jurisdiction to decide what they want to do with those. So that's 01:08:42
some of the stuff we'll have to consider. 01:08:46
Motorcycle scooters cannot be operated in a public parking structure or anywhere bicycles are prohibited. 01:08:51
You only can have it many people on them as they're designed for no more than 15 mph. 01:08:57
And any ordinances that we have that relates to bicycles would apply to the scooters as well. 01:09:03
The changes in next year. 01:09:08
It narrows under restriction of eight-year old under 8 year old just to just highway like I mentioned. 01:09:10
Then it spells out 815 on highway. 01:09:15
They have to be under the direct supervision of a parent or guardian. 01:09:19
Or. 01:09:22
Have a new safety certificate that will come. 01:09:23
Come into play next year, the state will is going to put out kind of like they did for the OHV. 01:09:26
Safety certificates that you could go online and get. 01:09:30
There's going to be something similar for that. 01:09:33
To that for these electric devices so and then 16 plus obviously they can operate them without. 01:09:35
Supervision. 01:09:41
Those are the motor assisted scooters. 01:09:42
The next one is electric bicycles. Hey. 01:09:44
Chief Deputy Holden, could I ask you to clarify what a highway is for the public? Because it's not just. 01:09:47
The freeway, not I-15. 01:09:53
That would be a freeway. 01:09:55
Highways, all the roads and vineyards. 01:09:57
So any road, any roadway is what they're. 01:09:59
They're classifying us. Unless it was a private road, private roads would be a little different. 01:10:02
Any public roadway. 01:10:07
So OK. 01:10:08
Freeway is a different standard. Obviously they're not allowed on the. 01:10:09
In fact, they're not allowed anything over it. 01:10:12
I shouldn't say that some of the stuff's not allowed on certain speed limits, but. 01:10:15
Depends on what one it is. 01:10:19
Electric bicycles. 01:10:20
There's three classifications depending on how fast they go, whether they give power when you're pedaling or not. 01:10:22
And. 01:10:27
Things like that. Most of them Class 1 and 2 is 20 miles an hour or less. 01:10:28
Class 3 is 28 mph. 01:10:32
They require a regular bicycle helmet at least. 01:10:35
This one also. 01:10:40
The law, state law, allows us to regulate their use. 01:10:41
Under 16 cannot write currently. Under 16 cannot operate a class 3 bicycle. 01:10:44
Under 14 cannot operate electric bikes with the motor engaged Which? 01:10:49
That's really fun to enforce. 01:10:54
Whether it's engaged or not on. 01:10:56
Public property, highway, past sidewalk and less under direct supervision of parent or guardian. 01:10:58
And then under 8 cannot ride with motor engaged on any public property, highway, path or sidewalk. 01:11:03
This one is also is changing next year. 01:11:07
To just the highway or the roadways. 01:11:10
8 to 15 have to be under direct supervision. 01:11:13
Or have a safety certificate. 01:11:16
16 plus can operate them without that. 01:11:18
Under 8 cannot operate them on the roadway. 01:11:20
And that's for the electric bicycles. 01:11:23
So basically if it goes. 01:11:26
28 miles an hour or less for the most part. 01:11:27
And has pedals. 01:11:31
Generally that's going to fall under this. 01:11:33
The next one, this one's been probably the hottest topic is the electric motorcycles. 01:11:36
These require a dot approved helmet. 01:11:41
So like a full face sound like you would have to have on a regular motorcycle. 01:11:45
This one is where it gets. 01:11:49
Very nuanced on depending on how we want to look at it. If my guys come across this particular bike, for example, like a Chiron or 01:11:50
a Teleria or whatever the ones are now. 01:11:55
Technically it could be viewed. The way the state code reads is. 01:12:00
It's a motorcycle. 01:12:04
Which would require. 01:12:05
Registration, insurance, a driver's license and an endorsement by the rider. 16 Plus. 01:12:07
Right, if we want to look at it as a motorcycle. 01:12:11
The next definition would be a high power. 01:12:15
Electric device and if we're looking at it that way, it changes a little bit. It wouldn't require that. 01:12:17
The next way you could look at it is an off Hwy. motorcycle. 01:12:23
Like a dirt bike. 01:12:27
And then that would require off Hwy. registration. 01:12:28
But not. 01:12:31
Insurance not really require a driver's license. 01:12:33
So depending on and the way we've kind of done this is. 01:12:37
Depending on the use right if it's being used as. 01:12:40
One of those or the other, then we probably look at it that way. 01:12:43
But realistically? 01:12:46
It technically could qualify as. 01:12:47
Any of those three the state did not really do a great job of defining. 01:12:49
How we need to address those so it gets a little bit convoluted. 01:12:54
But they do so the and then high power electric devices. These are our. 01:12:59
It could be a scooter. 01:13:04
That goes more than 20 miles an hour. 01:13:05
It could be a. 01:13:07
Electric bike that's been modified to go more than that it could be. 01:13:08
Basically any electric device that goes. 01:13:12
Greater than 20 mph that doesn't have pedals, or even that has pedals with. 01:13:15
With. 01:13:19
Under the power of electric alone, not pedaling. 01:13:20
Right. And so? 01:13:22
Those are the 2. 01:13:25
Things becomes of the motorcycles. 01:13:26
This one says under 16 cannot operate them on a highway. 01:13:28
So if you're under 16, even though high power electric devices. 01:13:32
Technically, anybody under 16 should not be writing these on the highway. 01:13:35
They may need to be registered. 01:13:39
Now, they do allow the city to regulate the use of these on sidewalks, paths and trails. 01:13:41
If the city wants to, wants to do so. 01:13:47
Those are the main categories. There's other categories like the segues and the one wheels and. 01:13:51
A bunch of other things. If you want me to go into those, we can, but these are the ones we're seeing most of. 01:13:56
Yeah, umm. 01:14:01
Let's start with any questions you have on those and what. 01:14:02
What you'd like to have answers on? 01:14:05
Council, any questions for? 01:14:07
Yeah, I just have one. So do we currently have any regulations when it comes to sidewalks and trails? 01:14:10
If we don't have any ordinances that specify specifically for these certain devices, we do have laws. 01:14:15
Like you can't, you not you can't go more than 15 miles an hour on a sidewalk or trail in the city. 01:14:22
Technically an off Hwy. vehicle is not allowed on trails or sidewalks within the city. So if we're going to classify them as an 01:14:27
off Hwy. motorcycle. 01:14:31
They're not allowed. 01:14:35
Like mostly that when we passed that one, we were mostly looking at side by side and 4 Wheelers that we were getting riding on the 01:14:36
trails throughout the city. So that's why that one was passed. 01:14:40
And then in the parks there is we have a micro mobility device. 01:14:46
Ordinance within the parks themselves that basically says you can't drive it in a reckless manner. 01:14:50
You have to be safe because we get lots of kids riding through the park on these things. 01:14:56
When we originally proposed that we were looking at possibly just. 01:15:00
Keeping them to the sidewalks or trails. 01:15:03
But it got changed to just. 01:15:05
In a reasonable manner, basically. 01:15:07
Those are the main things that we have in the city right now that. 01:15:10
Regulate those sidewalks. 01:15:13
OK. Any other questions? I have a question about. 01:15:15
Yeah, bicycles or motorcycles, I guess. Are we treating electric motorcycles any differently than we treating any other? 01:15:18
Normally powered were. 01:15:24
Gas powered. 01:15:26
Vehicles. 01:15:27
Motorcycles, I should say, the same gas powered motorcycle, yeah. Are we treating the same? 01:15:28
I mean, the hard part about that is if you go and buy a gas powered Harley or whatever it might be, right? It's going to come with 01:15:31
a title. 01:15:36
You're going to have to register it. You're gonna have to have insurance, Yeah. 01:15:40
When you buy one of these Hurons or Telerias, they're not coming with a Utah title. 01:15:43
Right. And there's no registration on them now. I called the DMV and spoke with them. You can get them registered without a title. 01:15:47
It takes a little bit of doing, which you can get it done. 01:15:51
And so yes, we're treating them a little different because. 01:15:56
I can run the VIN number on a gas powered anything for the most part, even if it was a Honda CRF80. 01:15:59
It's going to have a VIN number and require registration. I can run that and see that in the state system. 01:16:04
And it's much easier. So there's some difficulties in. 01:16:08
Identifying how these are registered or titled or whatever. 01:16:12
Is there some? 01:16:15
Interest or effort and. 01:16:16
Underway to try to. 01:16:18
Upgrade the way those are provided so they can treat them equivalently so they can have bin numbers attached to these motorcycle. 01:16:20
State code is going to. 01:16:25
State code, I think it starts next year is going to state that anybody that's selling these now Grant, I think this will only 01:16:28
apply to if you're selling them within the state. You can still order them on Amazon, right, but. 01:16:32
State law is going to require manufacturers to put on to give a notice to people that are buying them that this is not an electric 01:16:38
bicycle. 01:16:42
It requires registration. 01:16:47
Verbiage like that it may require insurance. 01:16:49
So that'll be. 01:16:51
Disclaimer to buyers moving forward. 01:16:52
And that's being done at the state level, yes. 01:16:56
OK. Thank you. 01:16:58
Any other questions for Holden? 01:17:00
Just a comment, can you let us know? 01:17:02
Well, I guess it is a question. Can you let us know if you ever? 01:17:04
Recommend. 01:17:07
You know, further action on sidewalks or anything like that if you're starting to see. 01:17:09
Issues tick up and Vineyard, I feel like we've. 01:17:13
Haven't had too many outrageous ones lately. 01:17:16
But. 01:17:19
So. 01:17:20
The next slide I have is. 01:17:22
Like enforcement actions. 01:17:23
I don't know. 01:17:25
In the crowd if you're all here for this or not If you're here for the previous item, but anyways. 01:17:26
The the. 01:17:30
If you have kids that have these, you've probably heard that other cities are impounding a lot of these electric motorcycles, like 01:17:33
literally taking them to the tow yard and you got to go pay the DMV the impound fee. 01:17:38
And I mean, you're probably $1000 to get it out of impound. 01:17:43
Right. We have not been doing that. 01:17:45
Unless they're like if a kid flees from us and we catch them then. 01:17:48
They we will probably impound it and you'll get, they'll get, you know. 01:17:52
Charged with. 01:17:55
Fleeing from police, right? 01:17:56
But we have elected to do what we normally do in Vineyard is. 01:17:58
Try to gain compliance with a little bit more sugar than salt if you will, and. 01:18:01
Our biggest concern is safety. We've had a few kids get hurt. 01:18:07
Some major injuries hitting fire hydrants and cars on these is our biggest thing is safety like helmets and not riding them. 01:18:10
Erratically I mean. 01:18:17
I before kids doing 40 miles an hour in fact the other day. 01:18:18
Riding on Center Street, I was driving and I was pacing a dad with his little kid doing 40 miles an hour on the sidewalk on his 01:18:22
electric motorcycle. So. 01:18:26
Like we really want with no helmets on either. 01:18:31
So really we're focused on safety and. 01:18:35
The kids just knowing that we're going to come and talk to you and explain what the rules are. 01:18:37
And we're not going to impound your bike, you know, I mean, and we're trying to gain compliance that way. 01:18:41
If the Council would like us to take it any other direction, I'm happy to listen to that, but I'm pretty sure that's where we're 01:18:46
at on it. 01:18:48
I would recommend we consider. 01:18:51
Because the state especially beginning next year, so it gives us some time to. 01:18:55
To research this and decide what we wanted to come to a consensus on. 01:18:59
Coming up with a uniform regulation on these types of devices for our sidewalk trails in the path. 01:19:03
I would recommend we do that. 01:19:08
And. 01:19:10
On sidewalks, trails and paths, you said yes, yes, so we could set. 01:19:11
And it's very similar to the golf cart we can get with Jesse, but it would be very similar to the golf cart where we could say. 01:19:15
How old you have to be, How fast you can go? 01:19:21
What types of devices we're going to allow or not allow? We could identify certain areas that we allow that we or don't allow. 01:19:24
We really have a discretion there to. 01:19:31
To decide what the best path forward is for Vineyard. 01:19:34
So yeah, not many other cities have adopted. 01:19:36
Those, yet some have outlawed them completely. 01:19:39
There's a few cities that have done that and basically if we do nothing right now, the way the state statute reads. 01:19:42
They're not allowed. 01:19:47
So. 01:19:48
Because they they the state. 01:19:49
Put that verbiage in, it's not changing till next May. 01:19:51
So OK. 01:19:55
I mean, do you guys, does the Council, I mean the public have any other concerns that maybe we're not addressing we? 01:19:57
We've talked to a lot of kids. We've my guys have been pretty. 01:20:02
Proactive in this and stopping. 01:20:05
The kids on the especially the motorcycles or even the bicycles that are going really fast as well. 01:20:07
Yeah. 01:20:11
Council, any questions? 01:20:12
For Holden. 01:20:15
That was great public any. 01:20:17
Any questions? 01:20:18
John, come up. Yep, come up, Sir. 01:20:20
John Petting You'll hold the web fields Goodborough I wasn't expecting to talk about it, but and Holden and I haven't talked about 01:20:25
it. 01:20:28
Live at the end of South end of Maine. 01:20:33
And Stillwater. 01:20:35
At least the last six days and on a regular basis, there are three dudes, three young guys, they're under 16, they're riding 01:20:38
electric motorcycles and they're popping wheelies, driving 40 miles an hour on Stillwater and on Main. 01:20:45
Right in front of my house, every single day. 01:20:51
And then the new private roads to the east of us. 01:20:53
In phase two of Hold away. 01:20:57
So for me to hear that. 01:21:00
You know, and your officers have been down there. 01:21:02
Based on, you know. 01:21:04
Talking about cars, speed. 01:21:05
But it's. 01:21:06
Near and dear You may have all heard recently about the kid who the two kids got hit in Harriman and the one kid died. 01:21:09
That was in my. 01:21:15
Daughter's ward on her street. They were my grandson's friends. 01:21:15
It's just a matter of time where we're at, not if, but when based on what I'm seeing or whatever. So. 01:21:21
Yes, please. 01:21:27
Whatever we got to do for enforcement, can we do it? Can we step it up? 01:21:29
I don't know if that's. 01:21:34
New news or whatever hold them, but. 01:21:35
Thank you. Awesome. 01:21:38
OK, Do we? 01:21:41
Yeah, Keith, come on up. We'd love to hear from you. 01:21:42
Keith Vincent with the Villas. 01:21:46
My wife and I walk along the path along the lake. 01:21:49
Almost every day. 01:21:52
And. 01:21:53
It's just. 01:21:54
Doubled and tripled the amount of traffic with these kids on the scooters. 01:21:55
And I really think it's a matter of just education and. 01:21:59
You know what's allowed, what's not allowed, But. 01:22:03
That someone's going to get run over my wife. 01:22:05
Did get brushed almost run over? 01:22:08
So the. 01:22:10
If we could do something about that. 01:22:12
Thank you. 01:22:14
Council. I have one, yeah. 01:22:16
Yeah, go ahead, David. So do we. 01:22:17
Do we have the ability to issue tickets to? 01:22:19
Offenders, You know, repeat offenders. 01:22:22
Most of the state laws on this we would have to go to the parent and issue the parent a citation for allowing their child to 01:22:24
operate it that way. 01:22:27
I'm OK with that. 01:22:32
Because I we don't have an ability to cite a 12 year old kids with dirt bikes. 01:22:36
I do not understand. I have. 01:22:41
Have 17 grandkids in line to do this. 01:22:43
Geez, keep that yourself. Well, it's my kids, the parents, so I'm OK. 01:22:50
OK. And believe me, we understand the front like the concerns and safety concerns. You're very concerned about it, my guys. 01:22:56
The deputies are truly stopping people quite often every day and we'll get into that area. If you have areas that you're having 01:23:02
issues with, call us. 01:23:05
We'll watch it. 01:23:09
If we. 01:23:12
If we can't get compliance, I mean, yeah. 01:23:14
Step would be to start issuing those citations. 01:23:16
I really hate to impound a children's a child's bike or motorcycle because I know who's going to pay for that. 01:23:19
So it's not going to be them. 01:23:26
You know, and so. 01:23:28
But we can do that. That is within the law to do so. 01:23:30
I just I currently ask not my my preferred practice. So when you when you give a warning, does that go to the parents too or just 01:23:33
to the the? 01:23:38
Kid offender. 01:23:43
Depending on the circumstance we may like call parents and say or follow them home to parents house and talk to parents. I can 01:23:44
hypothetically speak to that. 01:23:47
OK. 01:23:51
Hypothetically. 01:23:55
How it works is. 01:23:56
Your dad gets the phone call. 01:23:58
And then there's a chewing out that happens from father to son. Well, I've heard that various growth, I guess. A phone call. I'm 01:24:00
good. 01:24:05
So. 01:24:13
Were there any other questions for this item on the agenda or did we address everything every? 01:24:14
I think your points in order hold and I think I think let's. 01:24:19
If you could get with Jesse start working on some recommendations on the sidewalks, trails and paths, I think that would be in 01:24:21
order. 01:24:24
Because I think that we did. 01:24:27
We have passed and sidewalks everybody and. 01:24:28
The desired outcome, obvious is we want to have to keep our community safe and our kids safe. We don't want to have. 01:24:31
Wrecks and stuff like that so. 01:24:37
I think it would come down to the appetite of the Council, to our. 01:24:39
Is there an appetite to? 01:24:43
Ban them, complain certain things completely, like the electric motorcycles. 01:24:44
From sidewalks, trails and paths. 01:24:48
Because that's where we've come in. Come before it's you know, I know nobody wants to be the guy that does that but or gal that 01:24:50
does that, but. 01:24:53
Seems to me we are tight for that. 01:24:56
We ought to treat them the way we treat. 01:24:58
Regular gas powered motorcycles. 01:25:00
Which would outlaw them completely. 01:25:02
I mean, they go. 01:25:05
Some of them, some of them do and. 01:25:07
Some of them almost as fast, which is just as bad. 01:25:10
Parker, where you at on this? 01:25:13
Greetings and salutations. 01:25:17
I've received feedback from residents. 01:25:20
On both sides of the issue. 01:25:22
Some have advocated for. 01:25:24
The removal or ban on sidewalks. 01:25:26
Sidewalks, paths and trails and others have said please protect this, it's our kids favorite recreational activity. 01:25:29
I'm. 01:25:37
Contemplating. 01:25:39
The balance of. 01:25:41
Personal liberty in my mind right now. 01:25:42
And I believe that. 01:25:45
You should be allowed to do what you want to do for recreational activity in so much as it does not impede. 01:25:47
Or endanger someone else. 01:25:53
And so then I. 01:25:55
And debating where that line is because it is hazardous. And I shared a story when we talked about this previously of my son being 01:25:58
hit. 01:26:01
By a young kid who's on an electric scooter who's going too fast and can't control it. 01:26:05
Yeah, and that. 01:26:09
You know, kind of sucked. 01:26:11
For my family. 01:26:12
But All in all, kids OK. 01:26:13
We move on. 01:26:16
But it is dangerous, I think on. 01:26:18
The trails especially like Mr. Vincent said. 01:26:20
The Lakefront Trail. 01:26:23
Is constantly. 01:26:25
Kids on those dirt bikes or scooters just cruising, but that's also a heavily trafficked area that just puts a lot of people at 01:26:27
risk. 01:26:31
Yeah, as a young teenager I was known to. 01:26:35
To drive a Honda 90. 01:26:38
Which at the time was a really low end bike. It's even lower end now. 01:26:40
But it would actually, I think if you really revved it up, get up to 3035 maybe, I don't know, but it was, but it was. 01:26:44
You know when you fell off that thing, it's just as bad as. 01:26:51
You know, a big bike. 01:26:54
And it seems to me if you hit somebody else and I. 01:26:56
I've been hit by it. 01:27:00
It wasn't fun. 01:27:01
It seems to me that electric bikes are about that state now. 01:27:02
And it seems to me we ought to do something to at least. 01:27:06
Try to protect the public. 01:27:10
That doesn't want to be. 01:27:11
From them, sure. 01:27:12
But yeah, we need to have a place for them to be able to drive them. 01:27:14
We also need to have a place for the public be able to walk safely. 01:27:19
OK, Jake. 01:27:23
Ezra and Jacob, where you guys at? 01:27:24
I I like where we're at now, where the speed limits kind of the governing thing. 01:27:28
I have a little sympathy for people who. 01:27:31
You know, want to ride? 01:27:33
Safely to a location and then. 01:27:35
You know, you know, wherever they might be going and then. 01:27:37
Have a. 01:27:41
A little more speed once they get to a safe area. So if they're all. 01:27:42
Band then it's going to be hard to transport those around so. 01:27:46
I mean, if it picks up, if it gets worse, I'd say let's keep trying to. 01:27:50
Encourage good behavior on these and. 01:27:54
You know, we can post on our social media. 01:27:56
David, if you want to. 01:27:58
Put some pulse out there. 01:27:59
Something like that, we can just continue to encourage it, but if we start to see it as. 01:28:01
A growing issue then I'd love to continue to just. 01:28:04
Hear more like let us know if it's getting getting worse. 01:28:07
As long as we're managing it then. 01:28:11
I'm comfortable just having the speed limits on the sidewalks and stuff. 01:28:13
Are any other cities banning it? 01:28:18
I think you, yeah, they are a couple of them, yeah. Pull on bands you feel about signs, like a sign. 01:28:20
Speed limit signs What? 01:28:25
Comes to motorized. 01:28:27
Stuff on the trail, I think, yeah, even a regular, if you've got a pedal bike, the speed limit is still the same. Yeah, for sure. 01:28:28
Like displaying the signs along Detroit. I think that might. 01:28:32
That's a good idea. 01:28:38
I think the line. 01:28:41
Is when they encroach upon the freedoms of others. So I think that. 01:28:43
If there's an accident, 100% we should be doing something just to teach them something. 01:28:47
And then when it's reported that they encroached upon someone walking where they. 01:28:52
There needs to be some sort of citation or this infringed, you know, like. 01:28:57
This is. 01:29:01
Getting close to an accident and it is this type of behavior. 01:29:02
I could understand that, but like. 01:29:06
Allowing it the freedom to do it. 01:29:08
Is you know you want to allow responsible. 01:29:11
You know, freedom. 01:29:15
Yeah, I think that's the line. I don't know. 01:29:18
Play devil's advocate with it, though. 01:29:20
Thought experiment. It's an opinion of what is and is not dangerous. 01:29:22
Zach's kids zips by me on the he's guilty the street. Hypothetically, who says? 01:29:26
That that's a near miss or close to an accident and when that determination should be. 01:29:31
The police I'm all for. 01:29:39
The trusting people and giving them the personal responsibility for it. 01:29:42
But. 01:29:47
When an accident occurs in that system. 01:29:48
You have to hold the person accountable, right? 01:29:51
Yeah, I would say that it's always the sheriff right, They're making that judgment. But you would you would side on if, if if 01:29:54
someones reporting that it is reckless. 01:29:58
And there's enough there to go on it. 01:30:02
I mean, maybe it's not the word of mouth or whatever, but if there's complaints that it's infringed upon the ability to walk or. 01:30:04
Or different things. 01:30:11
But I I I'm terrified like I've I've seen 3 or 4 willies on Holdaway road where they fall down. 01:30:13
And they get a. 01:30:20
And they're not going to tell anybody but they're. 01:30:21
They're really dangerous. 01:30:24
And I I'm. 01:30:25
I'm we're going to see some deaths in the next year. 01:30:26
Kids, it's bad. 01:30:29
All righty. OK. 01:30:32
Thank you. 01:30:33
Off we go. 01:30:34
OK, let's jump to 5.3. Discuss. Resolution 202631 is insignificant land resolution. I'm going to kick that over to Ezra. 01:30:35
To go over that. 01:30:43
Sure. So. 01:30:46
This policy. 01:30:48
Is. 01:30:49
And attempt to address. 01:30:50
There's a few issues around the city where we've got. 01:30:53
Parcels in our. 01:30:56
As we were building out quickly. 01:30:59
You know, we didn't always get the. 01:31:01
Exact. 01:31:03
Lines, right, whether it's a developer or the city or or whatever. 01:31:04
And so you have some homes where like a fence was built. 01:31:09
Improperly. 01:31:12
Either into the city's right of way or. 01:31:13
Or other property infringing upon. 01:31:16
You know, city land. 01:31:20
This would provide a. 01:31:22
Relatively low cost solution to address some of these issues. So if we have like a small stretch. 01:31:24
Of land where? 01:31:30
You know, we've got one, Homer. 01:31:31
Homeowner in violation. 01:31:33
We can. 01:31:35
Straighten out a line rather than requiring A homeowner to pay. 01:31:36
Significant amounts of money if it's. 01:31:39
You know, just a couple feet that we're talking about. 01:31:41
And a pretty minimal. 01:31:44
Cost this was. 01:31:45
Driven by some state law changes and a homeowner approaching us as well. 01:31:50
Back in 2024. 01:31:55
There was kind of a. 01:31:57
A push from the surveyors to to help be able to clean up some of these. 01:31:59
Kind of insignificant boundary. 01:32:03
Line encroachments and. 01:32:05
And so there's a. 01:32:07
There's basically. 01:32:08
Two ways for people to handle. 01:32:09
For cities to handle this is. 01:32:11
If there's a significant one. 01:32:13
You know, that's identified as a larger substantial partial in the law. 01:32:16
And then if there's insignificant ones, cities have a little bit more latitude to. 01:32:19
To address them. 01:32:24
And so I sent out. 01:32:26
My proposal to try to. 01:32:28
Have a policy for us as a city to be able to. 01:32:31
Address these as they come through. There'd be an application process. 01:32:33
The administrative costs would have to be. 01:32:39
Borne by the homeowner that's approaching the city saying, hey, I've got this issue. 01:32:41
I want to address it. 01:32:44
But then the Council could. 01:32:45
Potentially waive. 01:32:47
Some of the land acquisition costs where you've got. 01:32:48
You know, small strip of land it could be worth on paper a lot of money. 01:32:51
Where? 01:32:55
You know the value to the city is not that much where it's the difference between. 01:32:58
A park or an open space having one foot of encroachment or two feet of encroachment. 01:33:03
Versus not having that over over the side, so. 01:33:07
Have any questions? 01:33:11
Feel free to ask him, I know I'm a little bit at odds with. 01:33:13
Some of the staff and proposing this, but I think it. 01:33:17
Could make a lot of sense and kind of balance the. 01:33:21
Rigidity of what needs to happen. 01:33:24
For a. 01:33:27
Longer, more extensive process. 01:33:28
Or, umm. 01:33:30
You know, giving the council some discretion to say, hey, this isn't really a big deal, let's let's take care of it. What's this? 01:33:31
What's this draft written by? 01:33:35
By Jesse Did you get Jesse to help with this? 01:33:38
I sent it to Jesse and he reviewed it and didn't have any additional comments. 01:33:41
OK, great. Mayor, do you mind if we have? 01:33:44
David who've gone through this process and. 01:33:46
It's one thing to hear about it, but. 01:33:49
Did you review the process and agree with it? 01:33:52
Did it work? I mean and and versus what is currently versus? 01:33:54
Maybe you want to set up the mic and give us some feedback. 01:33:59
We're going to have. 01:34:02
I mean, there's probably 50 to 100 of these problems scattered throughout the city. 01:34:03
Dave Height Maples. Yeah, so. 01:34:09
And that my house is built. 01:34:13
Probably over 10 years ago. 01:34:15
The fence and the Peachtree in the garden went in right about the same time that the green space that it backs up to put in their 01:34:18
lawn. 01:34:22
I went through the Google Earth. 01:34:26
And try to. 01:34:28
Find out the timetable. I just know back in 2017 both the garden boxes and the Peachtree. 01:34:29
Went in at the same time as as the. 01:34:35
So I don't I can't say who who did what first. 01:34:38
But and then in. 01:34:42
20 Sometime between 2019 and 2020, they put up a fence. 01:34:44
Anyway, so I bought the house in 2022. 01:34:49
No 2023. 01:34:53
And was not disclosed to me that. 01:34:55
The boundaries were off. 01:34:58
And then it came to my attention while I was living there. 01:35:01
That yes. 01:35:05
One side of my the corner of my fence was off by three feet and the other one was off by 5. 01:35:06
Roughly about 250 square feet. 01:35:11
And so I did approach Ezra and Jacob. 01:35:15
About this situation, hey, let's try to get a resolution. 01:35:20
And. 01:35:24
My understanding is Vineyard doesn't have a clear cut. 01:35:26
On what to do with the insignificant land? 01:35:29
And so Ezra put this together. I did review it. 01:35:34
I do understand the. 01:35:38
The fear or the trepidation of. 01:35:42
Trying to set precedents. 01:35:44
But in my situation I think it would be very hard to repeat. 01:35:47
And I think this. 01:35:51
Code that you would vote on would. 01:35:55
Be something that. 01:35:57
Is very clear. 01:35:58
And hard to replicate. 01:36:00
And so to me, I think it helps people out. 01:36:04
Are in situations like myself. 01:36:07
Where I wasn't the one that put it up, I was the one that. 01:36:10
Kept it going. 01:36:14
And you know, it looks good. The Peachtree looks good, the garden boxes look good. The fence looks good. 01:36:16
On the other side of the fence. 01:36:22
You know the grass goes right up to it equally. That's where the sprinklers go right up to. 01:36:24
And so it's an actually natural fit. 01:36:30
And by moving it, it doesn't add really any type of. 01:36:32
Value to the city because it's just a green space. 01:36:36
OK, so. 01:36:39
Any other questions or comments from I have. 01:36:42
I have a couple questions. Yeah, go ahead. So help us understand the the limits that you're using here. 01:36:45
Why $20,000? Why 300 square feet? 01:36:50
Why before 2020? 01:36:54
I wanted to put some limitations on this so it wasn't just. 01:36:57
Inviting people to to do this in the future. 01:37:00
So the pre 2020 is to kind of recognize this was a. 01:37:03
A time of pretty rapid growth. 01:37:06
We had prior to 2020 less than. 01:37:08
You know, 20 administrative staff at the time. 01:37:11
We've now since grown as a city and we have more opportunity to. 01:37:16
To review these and and. 01:37:20
Handle situations like this. 01:37:23
The $20,000 was just a dollar amount I put in there. 01:37:26
Seemed like a. 01:37:29
When you're looking at land size. 01:37:32
Something that. 01:37:33
Was reasonable or price per square footage where we do have high land values and vineyard. 01:37:34
But kind of identified this is a. 01:37:39
Relatively smaller parcel, but I'm not married to any of these. As land values go up that we met, we may bump into that more. 01:37:42
Overtime, yeah, we could for sure. 01:37:49
Well, I think, I think to the. 01:37:51
As I kind of look at the. 01:37:53
The build out of our city. 01:37:55
Most of the single family homes are. 01:37:56
There. So we kind of know the problems are, yeah. 01:37:58
I don't I don't see this. 01:38:01
These problems getting. 01:38:02
More of them. 01:38:03
I mean. 01:38:04
That could be I guess, but. 01:38:05
They pre exist. They're already there, correct? Yeah, they exist, yeah. 01:38:07
Yep, exactly. And yeah, I've had, actually I've had another. 01:38:11
So while David most recently reached out, I've had another. 01:38:15
Issue when I was city manager when we. 01:38:19
When we dealt with something like this, I don't think we ended up doing anything for it, but. 01:38:21
Yeah, this was potentially like this could affect. 01:38:27
A small swath of land owners, but. 01:38:30
You know, a significant. 01:38:32
Swath if we can get them taken care of. So yeah, for sure. 01:38:34
But I'm open to changing those limits if we want to. 01:38:38
Razor lower. We can always revisit this via council action as well if. 01:38:41
You know, down the road we want to do a higher dollar amount or. 01:38:45
Higher square footage depending on how things go. So one other question. 01:38:48
Daria mentioned. 01:38:53
This might be something that the. 01:38:54
That the Planning Commission could help us with as well. 01:38:56
Does it need to be a City Council action or could? 01:38:59
Could it be handled by the Planning Commission for the most part and. 01:39:02
Get ratified by the. 01:39:06
By the Council. 01:39:07
I mean, we killed as far as like the final decision. 01:39:11
I just figure if we're going to have to ratify it anyway, we might as well. The state code does. Yeah, it. 01:39:15
The Planning Commission could give a recommendation is what I'm saying, but. 01:39:21
I just. 01:39:24
I think these are going to be so insignificant, it's not worth going through that extra step, but. 01:39:25
I'm open to. 01:39:29
Actually, I actually kind of like the. 01:39:31
I like the head of the Planning Commission like it goes to the head to A. 01:39:33
To review and then they just send it to us on a consent item. 01:39:37
With an up or down. 01:39:41
We're recommending this, so it's just. 01:39:43
One person on the Planning Commission. 01:39:45
That is assigned to. 01:39:48
To handle it because. 01:39:50
That are going to go look at the planned research you know David Council, I don't. 01:39:51
Well, or maybe one person on the council. I mean, it was really good to go out, David, go through the documents, look at this map. 01:39:56
One person should kind of give a recommendation. I don't think all five of us need to go out to each insignificant. 01:40:02
Parcel and go, OK, I get what's going on. Yeah, I'm and here I just have staff give their recommendation or the thoughts and then 01:40:08
the council considers it. Mayor. There's one comment I would have on this. It's more of a clarification. 01:40:15
So the state law. 01:40:22
Does have that? 01:40:25
The boundary of boundary adjustment would have to conform to the land use. 01:40:27
Be in compliance land use. 01:40:33
So the land use authority would just have to. 01:40:35
Ensure that they're part of the process. 01:40:37
So I believe that would just be the DRC. 01:40:39
But if it's from one approved land use to another approved land use, the land use has already been approved. 01:40:42
In essence is just to make sure conforming these there, for example. 01:40:48
It doesn't change any, especially because it deals with public the public. 01:40:52
Property that it just has to ensure that there's the conformities there that. 01:40:56
You know, by changing. 01:41:01
Any type of property that it doesn't fall below like the. 01:41:04
Like the type of single family residential that might be applied to it's it's it's there in state law that just has to be. 01:41:07
Checked by the land use authority. 01:41:16
For conformity, that's really the land use authority is not. 01:41:18
Saying yes, you should do this or no, you shouldn't do this because it says it does say DRC instead of it does say you'll reserve 01:41:21
a perpetual. 01:41:25
Easement. 01:41:29
Which I think is. I would cover that, wouldn't it? 01:41:30
For this I mean for any particular case, I'm not sure. I mean if in a general sense it should. It depends. 01:41:34
Those are types of things that would just be put in consideration. 01:41:40
Like I can't speak on. 01:41:43
Any this particular case? 01:41:44
For the for this particular resident since I haven't reviewed it. 01:41:46
But it's just a process of. 01:41:49
Conformity into like this a check. 01:41:51
Checkbox to say yes. This does not. 01:41:54
Create any kind of. 01:41:56
Changes in terms of land use. 01:41:58
Again, this is in state law. I can't remember exactly the number, but I can give it to you. 01:42:00
So I just say in Section 4 instead of having. 01:42:04
All findings shall receive a staff recommendation. We could just say. 01:42:06
DRC recommendation there. 01:42:10
Or if you would just like to put the land use ability. 01:42:15
Or the yeah, we can use the same language and say land use authority. 01:42:17
I'm curious. 01:42:21
If I may just share. 01:42:23
Some thought and feedback. 01:42:25
Is there of? 01:42:27
Way or a process? 01:42:28
That we could go through with something like this without. 01:42:30
Outlining, uh. 01:42:33
Specifications that become a blanket precedent. 01:42:35
I mean, can we reserve the right to handle these on a case by case basis? 01:42:40
The reason that I bring that question up. 01:42:45
Is. 01:42:47
In my previous comment in the last section. 01:42:48
People should be responsible for their actions now, I think, in this situation. 01:42:51
It was not David's action that put David in this situation, It was the previous property owner. 01:42:56
Unpopular opinion. 01:43:03
The previous property owner has some liability in this. 01:43:04
Now that's a question for. 01:43:08
Mr. Riddle. 01:43:10
But. 01:43:11
I don't think the city should be in the business of. 01:43:12
Hurting a resident either and I like. 01:43:15
In this situation. 01:43:18
This. 01:43:20
Course of action to rectify the issue. 01:43:21
Potentially raises. 01:43:24
The residence property values not just his, but the surrounding area as well. 01:43:26
Which is a better outcome for those neighbors? 01:43:31
And it's done. 01:43:34
At a minimal expense. 01:43:35
To the residents and the taxpayer. 01:43:38
But is there also a course of action to recoup that cost and expenditure? 01:43:40
Due to the liability that someone else would have incurred by misrepresenting the sale of real property. 01:43:45
As in, I'm no longer sizing titles. Jim Pollen. 01:43:50
Yeah. No, I did. I didn't think about potentially having an option where. 01:43:54
If any land is sold. 01:43:58
That they would. 01:44:01
Pay the market value at that. 01:44:02
Time of the you know, the land that was conveyed, sure. 01:44:03
So yeah, I did. 01:44:07
At least consider that and I'd be open to. 01:44:09
To having some provision additional thought on this. 01:44:11
Is it prevents us from having people who. 01:44:15
Maybe intentionally do something dishonest. 01:44:19
Where if you own the property and you build the fence and you claim. 01:44:22
Three extra feet in each direction that's not yours. 01:44:28
Now we can say no, you were the one responsible for this. You don't fall into this bucket. We're not going to give you the 01:44:31
provision. 01:44:35
Yeah, that's that's where I added the. 01:44:39
The pre 2020 so that. 01:44:42
Anything. Anything existing. 01:44:44
You know this kind of sure, but if somebody did it in 2019. 01:44:46
And they were the property owner and they're still the residents. Can they claim that they fall into this bucket? 01:44:50
I'm saying let's just. 01:44:55
Is there a way we can do it on a case by case? They said a case by versus the precedent, Yeah, because. 01:44:56
Does this title figure, yeah, we insurance figure into this. Can we, can that be used? No, we we do have that in the approval 01:45:01
section on specifically spelling out that each case is unique. 01:45:06
And that it won't set precedence that this is an application procedure all applications. 01:45:11
Have final review and approval by the City Council but but I do. 01:45:16
I do recognize that. 01:45:20
Yeah, now somebody could try to make that argument. 01:45:23
Like umm. 01:45:25
That was the language I put in there to try to address that, but. 01:45:26
If there's something stronger that we could do. 01:45:29
To make sure that doesn't happen, I would be totally open to. 01:45:31
Yeah, you know. 01:45:34
Having that, I just wanted to put this. 01:45:36
Together as here's a good concept framework we could work off of and if we want to strengthen any sections or change any sections. 01:45:38
Let's take care of that. 01:45:44
During the work session so we can get it approved. 01:45:46
On this situation, there is a little bit of. 01:45:48
Not I guess. 01:45:52
Perceived urgency it's not. 01:45:53
Super. 01:45:56
You know, it's not really the city's concern, but I would like to try to get it addressed. I know we've got. 01:45:58
Adjacent land owners that are. 01:46:02
Kind of seeking direction, do we? 01:46:04
Can. 01:46:06
You know, put our fence in. 01:46:07
Do we need to put our fence in at the? 01:46:09
Define city property line or can we make it a straight line? 01:46:11
So that we don't have an issue where. 01:46:14
We've got, we've got it. Yeah, we want to clean it up. So they're clean lines, right? Like because it's crazy maintenance issue. 01:46:16
Yeah, it. 01:46:23
And that's why I think that. 01:46:25
Is just on a case by case basis with him I I think you just. 01:46:26
Maybe you put someone as a counsel to go. 01:46:30
And you just up it down and vote. Problems happen in governments all the time and. 01:46:33
You can't. 01:46:38
Write a rule specific to all the different scenarios. 01:46:39
So I think you just do an application that's very open and easy. 01:46:42
That allows them to apply for it and whoever the applying person that reviews it, one person on the council, the DRC, then it 01:46:46
comes for us for a quick up and down vote. 01:46:51
OK, I notice there's no one here. We address the the cost. 01:46:56
So the price that? 01:47:00
If you go to the next. 01:47:02
The actual kind of spelled out procedures in the Exhibit A, Yeah, the cost consideration in Section 2. 01:47:05
Yes, Exhibit A would be the actual kind of process, right? You talk about shifted liability and intangible benefits and so forth. 01:47:11
Initiative floor, but there's no numbers attached. 01:47:18
Yeah, so each one will get a staff review. 01:47:21
An assessment. 01:47:23
Will have the numbers put in front of us. 01:47:24
If they meet. 01:47:27
The under 20,000 threshold. 01:47:28
And then we can decide how much. 01:47:30
We would waive essentially on the purchase price there. I see. 01:47:32
OK, OK. 01:47:39
Any other comments before I move to the next item? 01:47:40
OK, great. 01:47:44
Anything we want to work sessions about for two weeks. 01:47:47
Yeah, I propose having this back on the agenda for an actual vote. 01:47:51
Let's do it. I'd say one of us assigned. Did we land on DRC or one of us assigned the job and then. 01:47:55
You should probably just happen to run relative because they need to do it I think, right? 01:48:02
Like if we wanted to take care of this first one. 01:48:09
I hate to have it to be staff. I think it needs to be an elected official because they're literally solving a problem. 01:48:12
Sure, but if state code says that land use has to be involved then. 01:48:18
Yeah, we still, we'll still see them from the up down. Yes, they give a record. Yeah, they recommend it. 01:48:23
OK, that's fine. 01:48:28
Yeah, the DRC is just a. 01:48:30
To jump through that hoop and then we put it on it. 01:48:32
Let me see. 01:48:36
I would be fine. 01:48:39
There's a lot we would have to. 01:48:48
To do on the back end, I mean we would move as quickly as we could. 01:48:50
I think we could schedule a special DRC meeting once everything's done. 01:48:55
Correct. 01:49:00
I mean, we can just move as as. 01:49:02
Quickly as we can, we're going to. 01:49:05
There's a lot on the back end that would have to. 01:49:07
Be looked at for a specific property but. 01:49:09
I think the most important. 01:49:13
Thing to make it move along quickly would be to get this on next Tuesday's agenda. 01:49:15
To get the policy in place and then. 01:49:20
And then staff will work on everything else. 01:49:23
Would you guys be comfortable? 01:49:26
Does that give you enough assurance that hey, we get the policy passed next week? 01:49:28
That we are. 01:49:32
At least moving in that direction so. 01:49:33
You know, it's at least. 01:49:35
Within a month or. 01:49:37
How much time do you think? 01:49:39
Mostly here. 01:49:41
Yeah, OK. 01:49:46
OK, sounds good. 01:49:48
OK, let's jump to the RDA. 01:49:51
Meeting umm. 01:49:55
Oh. 01:49:58
I didn't. 01:49:59
I Robin or not Robin? Hey Robin. I mean Tony. 01:50:00
Do we need to gavel out and gavel in or do we just? 01:50:06
Can we just all right? 01:50:09
Sounds great. Let's take a. 01:50:12
Listen, two-minute 2 minute recess. 01:50:14
No getting Mountain Dew, everyone stay here except. 01:50:16