Planning Commission
Live stream not working in Chrome or Edge?
Troubleshooting steps
In your browser: open Menu (three dots) → Settings → System → turn off “Use graphics acceleration when available.” Then restart the browser.
Bookmark list
* use Ctrl+F (Cmd+F on Mac) to search in document
Loading...
Loading...
Transcript
| Order our Vineyard Planning Commission meeting. | 00:00:02 | |
| We're going to have Commissioner Bryce Brady give us an invocation. | 00:00:06 | |
| Dearly Father, we're thankful that we can be here for this meeting for the in your Planning Commission. Please bless us as we go | 00:00:14 | |
| through these things that we're talking about that will be inspired as to what needs to be done here at Vineyard for the benefit | 00:00:20 | |
| of the community. We're so thankful for those that volunteer their time and efforts to make this a great place to live, and we're | 00:00:27 | |
| thankful for the citizens that come and voice their concerns and help us make this city a great city. | 00:00:33 | |
| We're so thankful for all that we have. We love the and we see these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. | 00:00:41 | |
| Hey, Bruce. | 00:00:46 | |
| All right. So on the agenda, we have an open session. If there's any members of the community that have something that they want | 00:00:48 | |
| to share, that's not on our agenda. And if you want to come up to the podium and state your name. | 00:00:53 | |
| Hi, David Loray, resident. | 00:01:04 | |
| So I have a question actually for the board. | 00:01:07 | |
| I know that well. | 00:01:13 | |
| When when a developer developer wants to come in and build a building, they have, they fill out the appropriate applications and | 00:01:15 | |
| so forth. It's reviewed into the process and it arrives here at the, you know, with the Commission here to be considered. | 00:01:22 | |
| I I had a petition. | 00:01:30 | |
| Asking for some, you know, citizen. | 00:01:33 | |
| Sponsor or citizen originated request of a city there's a traffic calming procedure head of the streets I I followed that | 00:01:36 | |
| procedure and submitted it all but I I don't I don't see a process I can't seem to figure out the process is that gets it from | 00:01:44 | |
| that point to you guys for consideration. So how does that work I mean what what do I I've been I've been talking to city people | 00:01:51 | |
| I've I've not you know just just let it drop And so I've talked and seen some very helpful for example. | 00:01:58 | |
| Others have to. What's the process? | 00:02:06 | |
| That will get that traffic coming up application up here for consideration before the Planning Commission. | 00:02:08 | |
| It's a good question. | 00:02:20 | |
| Morgan, do you wanna? | 00:02:21 | |
| Sure. It it deals with public right away. So that would go to the City Council directly. Yeah, it would go to City Council, I mean | 00:02:23 | |
| if the Planning Commission would like would like to review it, but the the City Council would be the the board as the authority to | 00:02:30 | |
| make decisions in the public right away. So let me rephrase the question, what's the process that gets it to the City Council? | 00:02:36 | |
| And we're happy to talk to you after I I I don't, I don't know I'm not I'm not over that that application David. So if you want to | 00:02:45 | |
| talk to staff you've got some more I can say the scenes was very helpful. I was just looking for all help I can get David is this. | 00:02:51 | |
| So this is in relation to the you you came before I talked about on Holdaway road sacrificing. | 00:02:58 | |
| Proposal for the bicycle Blvd. Yes, so in Morgan, I mean I would be fine to have it on our agenda too as Planning Commission. | 00:03:05 | |
| For us to put it on the agenda here, you got a plan of course you'd like to see it. You guys can provide a recommendation if you | 00:03:16 | |
| want, but it's with public right away. It's always going to be the City Council shrimp that that that would make that decision. So | 00:03:21 | |
| if you guys would like to see it, we're happy to to bring it to you. I I would ask and see him to to comment on it if you want, | 00:03:25 | |
| yeah. | 00:03:29 | |
| So. | 00:03:36 | |
| In regards to fab calming applications in general, typically when they're filled out and they're given, they're given their, | 00:03:39 | |
| their, their reviews. Again, it depends depending on the type of application. For example, like it's a request for a request for a | 00:03:46 | |
| reduced speed limit. Then with that being said, the city will conduct a will conduct an analysis depending on the type of analysis | 00:03:53 | |
| is kind of determined on the situation and then. | 00:04:00 | |
| At times. | 00:04:08 | |
| The. | 00:04:10 | |
| Before again, another jurisdiction as well. Typically sometimes if it comes down, if it comes down to where no action is required, | 00:04:13 | |
| but we we study and there's a determination and no action, we sent a letter of to the applicant. | 00:04:21 | |
| Stating that after after our evaluation that note we determined no actions required and that applicant actually has the | 00:04:29 | |
| opportunity to bring it forth for an over contested and bring it forth to the great State Council. If they wanted to bring it to | 00:04:36 | |
| Planning Commission, they can bring it to the Planning Commission. If there is actions to be taken like for example with emissil | 00:04:44 | |
| arrays a specific application. We've kind of determined some steps to appropriate steps for some actions to be done. | 00:04:51 | |
| And then if it's something to do specifically for a speed limit. | 00:04:59 | |
| That is actually like that. I don't believe that goes through Planning Commission at all. That goes that that goes to represent | 00:05:05 | |
| council for making those postings and then any kind of it requires. | 00:05:10 | |
| If it requires, I just use this as the list examples. I guess speed hump or speed table then something like that, depending on if | 00:05:16 | |
| it doesn't require any, If it requires additional budgeting budget like funding, then we're going to City Council if there is no | 00:05:23 | |
| need for funding for that. | 00:05:29 | |
| Typically it would be taken care of without City Council action on. It really depends on the what the actions would be required | 00:05:36 | |
| on. | 00:05:42 | |
| What the specific situation is, if it's a something to do specifically with a zoning type thing or even like a reclassification, | 00:05:52 | |
| then that's something that's you know, I work, we work, we work with work with communities development director. | 00:06:00 | |
| Determine whether it's appropriate to take it to the Planning Commission or not. | 00:06:08 | |
| It's again it's a lots of different options depending on the situation, so it sounds like depending on what the what the proposed | 00:06:12 | |
| traffic calming measures would be would dictate what is the best path exactly. | 00:06:19 | |
| So again, just as the Planning Commission, we're happy to put it on the agenda if it's helpful. | 00:06:28 | |
| So we're happy to bring it to you for your review if you'd like to see it. | 00:07:05 | |
| So some of these lots don't necessarily have to find frontage that's planted, they're kind of grandfathered in. So if we went the | 00:07:40 | |
| Planning Commission route? | 00:07:44 | |
| Difficulties with calling it that, so happy to call it Heritage Bike Way or something like that or whatever. | 00:08:21 | |
| The name is as important as is getting it done. | 00:08:28 | |
| It's it's it's a great, the great asset to the city to have the bike way be great, but on top of that it's a great safety issue. | 00:08:31 | |
| And it's one that hasn't been addressed for many years and we've been trying different routes and I think this is probably the one | 00:08:39 | |
| that we most acceptable to most members of the city and in fact when I run around to get things signatures from the community. | 00:08:46 | |
| 85% of the of the neighborhood signed, yes. | 00:08:53 | |
| I had one I won. No, but we expected that because he just piece of man's there. | 00:08:59 | |
| So David I think we'll just so we can kind of can move it. I, I we we'd be happy to review it as the Planning Commission. So I | 00:09:06 | |
| guess just you know after we must talk with Morgan determine what's the best course to get what you put together to get it | 00:09:12 | |
| reviewed. I think it would be we'd be happy with you if if it's the best courses take a straight City Council. I mean it's fine | 00:09:17 | |
| too but we'd be happy to put on the agenda and talk about it. | 00:09:23 | |
| Yeah, it was not having a process. That's why I came here. And I also want to again say thank you in the scene who's been working | 00:09:29 | |
| with us on this. | 00:09:33 | |
| Any other comments from the public? | 00:09:38 | |
| Please come up and state your name. | 00:09:41 | |
| Carrie Hottie, resident for the record I agree with him, but different topic. A surveyor came out and was surveying the bike path | 00:09:44 | |
| that's South of the the school on Geneva Rd. Not in Geneva. I've lived here too long on Center St. What's what's the name of that | 00:09:53 | |
| school? The Vineyard Elementary, Trail side. Freedom. Franklin. Franklin. Franklin. The bike path S Franklin. Do you have a status | 00:10:01 | |
| or update on that? Someone who's out surveying on the backpack? I do not. Is that something? | 00:10:10 | |
| The scene when do we have a staff update on that? | 00:10:19 | |
| Serving for a bypassing that subdivision. | 00:10:22 | |
| Bike path that runs East West. | 00:10:26 | |
| I'm gonna pull up a map, make sure I'm talking about the same one. It goes from the, it goes from the. | 00:10:28 | |
| Why don't we get with him? Everything has to be on the record and if we get into a dialogue on specific items, it has to be an | 00:10:35 | |
| under state code has to be agendized. | 00:10:39 | |
| Public comment If if a resident asks to look into the summer, we can do that and then if you want it back on the agenda, we can. | 00:10:44 | |
| But we we run afoul of the open meetings law if we get too deep and they have to be agendized on them. So we're happy to look into | 00:10:51 | |
| it and get an answer. Just get the location that the northwest corner of the of the soccer park, the the lakeside complex, the | 00:10:58 | |
| north, the northwest corner, it runs east West. So that's the bike path referring to the temple bike path. | 00:11:05 | |
| Yeah, I don't, I don't, we don't have an update for you, but we can look for it after you know? | 00:11:13 | |
| Thank you. | 00:11:19 | |
| Any other comments from the public? | 00:11:21 | |
| OK. | 00:11:26 | |
| Go back there again here. | 00:11:27 | |
| OK, so minutes review and approval. We have minutes from November 17th, December 1st and February 2nd. | 00:11:30 | |
| The Commission Have you guys had a chance to look at those? Do we have? Yeah, I had a chance to review. If no one has any | 00:11:39 | |
| objections, I'd like to make a motion to approve those minutes as stated. Yeah, go ahead real quick. On the February 2nd, was I | 00:11:45 | |
| still the chair? I was the vice chair, Acting just acting chair. I was acting chair. I don't know. Let's switch over in November. | 00:11:51 | |
| Was that when you guys? | 00:11:57 | |
| January meeting, so you were just acting Chairman. I was just acting, OK, I can make that change in the in the minutes. OK. Is | 00:12:03 | |
| that the only that's OK, right. So thanks for that. With that noted change, I motion to approve the minutes. I'll second. | 00:12:10 | |
| I approved, all right. | 00:12:18 | |
| Thank you. OK, All right, so let's move on to our business items. Item 4.1, Public Hearing Site Plan and Conditional Use Permit | 00:12:24 | |
| for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is seeking approval of a commissioning permit and site plan for a place of | 00:12:33 | |
| assembly located at 22212 N 220 W Parcel number 419140058. The property is in the Hampton subdivision zone, SFD. | 00:12:42 | |
| 15,000 before we get into this real quick, Didn't we approve this like two years ago? | 00:12:52 | |
| It was, yes, there was continued. | 00:12:58 | |
| Is this been the third time or it's the kind of thing where it gets, it gets reviewed, approved, the church does nothing and so | 00:13:02 | |
| and everyone wants the church there. So it's kind of thing we're like you got to move on and then the application expires then | 00:13:08 | |
| they come back. So we're hoping they told us they are going to move forward with it so. | 00:13:14 | |
| You know, is that truly? | 00:13:21 | |
| OK, just wanted to make sure it wasn't crazy. | 00:13:24 | |
| My name is Brian Maya Perez. I'm a city planner here. | 00:13:29 | |
| Yeah, so let's get started. The map on the screen shows the location of where the church will be, so where it says Church of Jesus | 00:13:34 | |
| Christ. | 00:13:38 | |
| It's in the Hamptons, just West of Vineyard Grove Park. | 00:13:44 | |
| The applicant, Leif Harris, is here representing PhD Architects, the architectural firm that's doing the work for the church. The | 00:13:48 | |
| actual address is going to be 171 W, 240 N, and it is in the Water's Edge Special Zoning District. | 00:13:55 | |
| Single family dwellings 1515 thousand square feet and above. | 00:14:05 | |
| So 1 Judge District aims to provide a range of housing located within a network of open space, parks and trails. It also aims to | 00:14:09 | |
| provide several gathering places along Utah Lake shoreline. The property will be developed over the coming year and will help | 00:14:15 | |
| provide social benefits and community resources for future residents. | 00:14:21 | |
| I'm going to put throughout the picture of the project. | 00:14:29 | |
| OK, there we go. | 00:14:36 | |
| I'll show some renderings in a bit. | 00:14:37 | |
| I wanted to talk about project. Some features about the project. It complements the neighborhood well aesthetically and through | 00:14:42 | |
| its style. Through appropriate finishes, coloring, colors, materials and quality. It promotes easy access by walking and biking, | 00:14:48 | |
| has an attractive water wise landscaping design. | 00:14:54 | |
| Just to give a few notes on the architecture, it has a stone veneer, has some aluminum finishing, some brick detailing, panel | 00:15:05 | |
| boarding, and each side of the building has been equally architecturally designed. | 00:15:11 | |
| It's it's only 167,000 square foot lots. That's approximately 3.84 acres. The building itself is 20, is about 20,500 square feet | 00:15:19 | |
| or 12% of the entire lot coverage. | 00:15:26 | |
| The height of the building is about 70 feet with the steeple. | 00:15:34 | |
| And 30 in about 33 feet without the seeple. Usually anything over 35 feet is is over our height limit, but there's an exception in | 00:15:40 | |
| the zoning code for for steeples on churches specifically so they can go that high. | 00:15:46 | |
| The project also has a 190 square foot storage building in the rear that is 12 foot tall, a six foot tall masonry dumpster | 00:15:55 | |
| enclosure and 1800 square foot large pavilion, each building being proposed as consistent with the architecture of the primary | 00:16:01 | |
| building. | 00:16:08 | |
| There's a 3000, three, 300 square foot area that's going to be used as a reclaim and that can be used for public gathering space. | 00:16:15 | |
| In total there are 281 parking spaces, 788 spaces to then accessible spaces, 8 bike stalls and 25.95% of the site is landscaping, | 00:16:25 | |
| so in this in this zone the requirement is 20% so they're they're meeting that requirement and exceeding over 5 percent. 54% of | 00:16:34 | |
| the site is in permeable surface so they're just shy of the 55% maximum. | 00:16:43 | |
| And. | 00:16:55 | |
| The light poles that are proposed on the site are all 18 feet tall and they're all hooded and down lit. | 00:16:56 | |
| To talk about the interior of the building, there's going to be 304 seats in the main seating area or the Chapel. The Chapel will | 00:17:06 | |
| include a rostrum, which is an elevated seating area with an organ chamber. There will be a Cultural Center that is often used as | 00:17:12 | |
| a gym. They'll have a serving area, material center, family rooms, mother rooms, several offices and classrooms and restrooms that | 00:17:19 | |
| are all 88 accessible. | 00:17:25 | |
| Basically, in a nutshell, staff is ready to recommend approval of the. | 00:17:33 | |
| Of the site plan and conditional use permit, but we do have a few concerns that we will have Mr. Lee Harris addressed here in a | 00:17:39 | |
| minute we can come to the stand. Our first concern is that parts of the parking lot along the perimeter, I, I I've been the staff | 00:17:45 | |
| that reviewed this, I feel like parts of the perimeter of the parking lot are not adequately lit based on the photometric plan. | 00:17:51 | |
| There's a lot of it. There's some areas especially in the western parking lot, you know both the site plan. So you can see what | 00:17:58 | |
| I'm referencing. | 00:18:04 | |
| So here's the overall site plan. There are parts of the western parking lot that in the in the fundamental plan showed 0. | 00:18:16 | |
| And maybe I'm just interpreting the photometric planning correctly. Also, on the southern part, there's also what appears to be | 00:18:26 | |
| not enough illumination. And so I'm I'm concerned. I'd like to see that all of the parts of the of the parking lot are well lit, | 00:18:33 | |
| just because I know the church often has activities, activities at night. | 00:18:40 | |
| The other part is that there's in the entrances to the parking lot, So this western entrance here and then the northern entrance | 00:19:19 | |
| here, We just wanted to make sure the code calls out that the, the concrete that is so the pedestrian walkway that intersects | 00:19:26 | |
| driveways, they need to be clearly differentiated as as walkways for pedestrians. And so we just want to make sure that that is | 00:19:33 | |
| being met, that part of the code is being met. They show what's the wording in the plans. | 00:19:41 | |
| So the wording in the plan, there's a label that says new concrete drive approach and So what does new concrete mean? Is is going | 00:19:48 | |
| to be a different pattern? Is it going to be? | 00:19:53 | |
| Is there gonna be any paint on there? We just want an explanation of that because we always think about pedestrians first and make | 00:19:59 | |
| sure that they're not being put into any zones of conflict with the vehicles. | 00:20:05 | |
| The other thing is that in this northwest corner of the site. | 00:20:12 | |
| So we just. | 00:20:17 | |
| Received some new standards for. | 00:20:19 | |
| Crosswalks and crosswalks leading into intersections from U dot. We want to make sure that these. | 00:20:23 | |
| Diagonal ramp, pedestrian crossing landings at the northwest corner are changed the directional ramps and maybe in a minute or so | 00:20:30 | |
| I I can it must seem if you have any sort of thing that you want to say to the directional grants. This was based on your comment. | 00:20:38 | |
| In the in the review, I think it has to do. I want to explain, yeah, I can talk a little bit, yeah. | 00:20:47 | |
| So it's always it's always better that crosswalks lead to another crosswalk or to a safe zone for pedestrians. As you can see here | 00:20:53 | |
| in the corner, it's leading into the middle of the intersection where there is no pedestrian facility technically. And so if we | 00:21:01 | |
| can get a proper alignment for these at the corners to where they're leading into crosswalks or safe delineated spaces for | 00:21:08 | |
| pedestrians, that would be our ideal scenario. | 00:21:16 | |
| My colleague Brian Perez is articulated that perfectly. | 00:21:25 | |
| Thanks. | 00:21:30 | |
| OK, um. | 00:21:32 | |
| Attendance from our water manager. He wants to make sure that the applicant is avoiding any deep rooted vegetation along any water | 00:21:34 | |
| meters or fire hydrants. So those are all labeled on the landscape plan. So that's just a note for the. | 00:21:42 | |
| For the applicant and my final note is that an exterior wall signage, so I'll go to the elevations Here there's two, there's one, | 00:21:51 | |
| there's one. | 00:21:57 | |
| Two, I'm sorry, two exterior elevation signs or exterior wall signs. I should say A1 that says the Church of Jesus Christ of | 00:22:04 | |
| Latter Day Saints and then another one that says it's a it's a number for the address. I'll have to double check if the numbers | 00:22:10 | |
| need a sign permit, but for sure the the sign where it says Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is going to need a signed | 00:22:15 | |
| permit. I I don't believe the address does. | 00:22:21 | |
| OK. Yeah. Thank you, Morgan. So, yeah, we won't give you any trouble about that one, but the church sign, yes. | 00:22:27 | |
| So those are my comments. | 00:22:35 | |
| The Planning Commission had a had a couple days to review the the plan set that was submitted for the agenda. If you guys have any | 00:22:38 | |
| questions, Mr. Harris is here to to answer any of these questions. So Life, could you come up to the standard and introduce | 00:22:43 | |
| yourself? Thank you. | 00:22:48 | |
| And feel free to change that. Can you do whatever? | 00:22:56 | |
| So I'm Leif Harris. I'm the owner of PhD Architects and. | 00:23:00 | |
| So I'm happy to answer any questions. Should I just go over the items that you asked about? OK, so the the church typically | 00:23:04 | |
| doesn't by their just their standard plans doesn't put lighting and meaning parking lot lighting except right around the building. | 00:23:12 | |
| This plan we added lighting on the east side on the second set of islands in order to I can show you where that is if I can. | 00:23:19 | |
| Find the exact sheet here. | 00:23:29 | |
| I'm gonna have to go clear clear to the end, aren't I? | 00:23:32 | |
| You actually photometric planner, but Oh yeah the other end. So the the photometric plan is not going to help. It's the things are | 00:23:37 | |
| too tiny to to read on this screen but. | 00:23:42 | |
| So typically we don't. We don't put them. I mean ruin this aren't I? Here you need to you need to get a mouse up here. That's the | 00:23:49 | |
| only no, I'm just bugging you. So normally normally we put, we put don't put any. | 00:23:57 | |
| Rights out in the the islands. Thanks. | 00:24:06 | |
| Would fill up. So as far as the church is concerned it's it meets their their lighting standards and they don't have concern about | 00:24:44 | |
| the risk of of it being too dark. That said, if if the ordinance requires that we're happy to put in what's required more lighting | 00:24:51 | |
| there and it it may be something I would suggest exploring maybe like a bollard lighting especially if you're going to be near a | 00:24:58 | |
| residential homes you know keep it low but at least enough so that you know someone parks the back parking lot there you know. | 00:25:06 | |
| They're able to see is some level, is there, is there a lighting level that's in the ordinance that's required or is it just a | 00:25:14 | |
| general? | 00:25:17 | |
| We don't we don't have aluminums. It's it's yeah it's kind of I mean somewhat opinion based. We need to like make that a little | 00:25:22 | |
| bit more of a standard but it's supposed to be lit so, so so you can see yeah and it's and it's not lit currently so that if the | 00:25:28 | |
| churches standard doesn't meet the ordinance, will meet the ordinance. | 00:25:34 | |
| As far as the the parking at the OR the the sidewalk right in front of the Dr. approaches, that is typically just sidewalk | 00:25:42 | |
| material. If the ordinance requires us to put in a colored or stacked concrete will do that. We just will make the ordinance. Is | 00:25:48 | |
| there anywhere else in Vineyard that does that or any other do the schools do that do? | 00:25:55 | |
| As well as differentiated crosswalks, OK, I'm just trying to think of. | 00:26:03 | |
| Trying to think of the other church, the one on Foreigner South as well this. | 00:26:09 | |
| Does it differentiate at all? Because I know it goes asphalt to the sidewalk and then the sidewalk just continues till it's | 00:26:14 | |
| asphalt. One other thing that's unique about this, correct me if I'm wrong, but that N line there, that's the the trail | 00:26:19 | |
| essentially connects in to that and it's a wider sidewalk that's not just like a traditional sidewalk along the north, the North | 00:26:24 | |
| End. | 00:26:29 | |
| Yes, I believe, I mean even if it's painted or something like that just to show that it's, I mean it, it's intended to be a more | 00:26:37 | |
| used to trail away. It's it's not asphalt like the other one, but there's an asphalt one that leads right up to it. | 00:26:43 | |
| And again, typically this is the same, I can't see from where I'm standing, but typically the stop parts would be placed along | 00:26:52 | |
| those areas current further back. So when the car approaches that there would be in the parking lot, there would be a stop a stop | 00:26:59 | |
| bar to allow at the at the stop sign to allow cars not to encroach too close to the pedestrian trail or even the sidewalk on the | 00:27:05 | |
| West side. To ensure that you know when cars come by that they actually are able to provide their pedestrians to safe buffer to | 00:27:12 | |
| cross. | 00:27:19 | |
| So is there an asphalt trail that comes up to this property? It's a it's a Portland concrete trail that goes on on the north side. | 00:27:26 | |
| Through the homes. Sorry. Yeah, it was going to be *******. But they changed it. | 00:27:35 | |
| This is there a perimeter fence on the side installed on the east, on the east side and the South side. We were planning to do a | 00:27:43 | |
| fence but not on the on the road sides at all. | 00:27:48 | |
| Oh yeah, sure. | 00:27:56 | |
| I believe so, yeah. Yes, I believe that that's true. Are you allowing gates? Typically the church does not allow gates because | 00:28:00 | |
| there's liability issues with gates, so. | 00:28:05 | |
| If that's required, we would entertain what's required but. | 00:28:13 | |
| The diagonal ramp at the pedestrian crossing, we were happy to change it out if it's required. We would normally leave it if | 00:28:17 | |
| that's a requirement will be that and then the deep rooted vegetable question will be that comply with that as well. Is there any | 00:28:21 | |
| other issues you'd like me to address, Brian? | 00:28:26 | |
| I don't know about the. | 00:28:34 | |
| Something wiping out here. | 00:28:36 | |
| Brian, you got you got to be on the record for next one. | 00:28:40 | |
| As is Brian again, we have spoken to Mike Bailey who who is the person who filled out the application. There is a trail as you | 00:28:43 | |
| mentioned on the north side and part of the trail comes into the property by 5 feet. And so we just expressed a concern that we | 00:28:51 | |
| wanted to make sure that there that that easement. | 00:28:59 | |
| That easement was put in place and there there is an easement put in place for that show and it is managed by the city. | 00:29:08 | |
| Um, is there any other concern with that so? | 00:29:13 | |
| That was something we wanted to clarify with the applicant so. | 00:29:18 | |
| So that's still a question if that is an easement or it is we did find out that there is an easement. | 00:29:21 | |
| I have not addressed that, so I'm not sure. Did you you're saying you did not find that out yet? | 00:29:27 | |
| Ours would be, I'm sorry, just to kind of clarify was talking about this along the North side. We just want to make sure that it's | 00:29:34 | |
| recorded properly in the plot that that is. | 00:29:39 | |
| You know is. | 00:29:45 | |
| Is it able to paint as I was maintained by the city? That's easy. That goes across and it's like for public use as well. So | 00:29:47 | |
| because the portion of that trail doesn't do part of its in the public right of way, part of its into the Church of fiber | 00:29:53 | |
| property, but that portion of it into the private property. | 00:29:59 | |
| Process, you know is for public use and maintained by the city. Yes, I think this is the, this is either the utility or the | 00:30:07 | |
| drainage map and it does call out if I put trail easement, yeah. And then also the one thing we know there was there was a | 00:30:13 | |
| redundancy about 5 foot and eight foot. | 00:30:19 | |
| So maybe just wanna make sure that we take that feeling out to clean up that pot. | 00:30:26 | |
| What is that? Is that possibly the overlap line? So it's five feet on private property, 3 feet within the right of way? | 00:30:31 | |
| Like being the planner who reviewed it, do you feel comfortable with with it? So do do you want a specific condition to ensure | 00:30:41 | |
| that happens or does that? Is this exhibit enough? Well once it gets approved, is is that going to be enough to satisfy the the | 00:30:46 | |
| easement requirements for the full walkway? | 00:30:51 | |
| And I feel like it's enough, but I mean if it doesn't hurt, we just make sure that it's stated as a condition of approval that the | 00:30:58 | |
| easement is is guaranteed to be in the city's name to to to accommodate the, you know, the the trail on the private property. You | 00:31:04 | |
| can probably write it general enough so then we can just work with them. I just don't want it to be, you know some wording issue. | 00:31:11 | |
| Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, but I think this, yeah, let's just do that as an as an additional condition. | 00:31:18 | |
| I have one more question about the lighting because obviously you're backing directly up to certain properties. We don't know what | 00:31:26 | |
| the direct, the actual lumens are going to be. Is there a way just to verify it's it's not going to be an excessive amount that | 00:31:31 | |
| bothers the property owners? | 00:31:36 | |
| So this is Leif Harris again the. | 00:31:42 | |
| We have a. | 00:31:47 | |
| Already examined the lumens on the east side, they're low enough that they're not going to be glaring into the neighbors on the | 00:31:48 | |
| South side. It's there's not a very long far distance. So I don't think we would want to add any on that side. So the only place | 00:31:54 | |
| we would entertain adding would be on the West side which busts the street. In that case it would we could put it in the islands | 00:32:00 | |
| and then it won't be really right next to the street and it's going to be far away from anything across the street. So I think | 00:32:06 | |
| we'd be in the same range of. | 00:32:13 | |
| Lumens that we already have on the on the property, OK. | 00:32:19 | |
| We can check too if there is going to be a street light there, maybe afterwards because we don't want to like if there's already | 00:32:22 | |
| street light, there's no reason to duplicate light on the private property. So now let's let's just look at that. I mean if the | 00:32:28 | |
| intent of having it somewhat visible is is met, I think we're good and is there building lighting on that South side then it's on | 00:32:33 | |
| the exterior. | 00:32:38 | |
| Typically we have lights at the entrances and there is. Let's see if I can find our plan here. | 00:32:45 | |
| So we we don't have any entrances on this South side. So there aren't any building lights. We do have pool pool lights, right? One | 00:32:58 | |
| pool light right there. | 00:33:02 | |
| And then we'd have it lights at both of these entrances, which are close to the South side. Because there aren't any parking or | 00:33:08 | |
| any entrances on that South area, people won't typically park there, and they'll park on the sides if they're if the parking lot | 00:33:12 | |
| is not full. | 00:33:17 | |
| Are there going to be gates to the parking lot? | 00:33:24 | |
| On in the fence or just to prevent parking outside of install them unless the local people park there for some other reason during | 00:33:28 | |
| non church use such as a parking chair which a lot of people try to do that. So I would not expect that they would put them in. We | 00:33:35 | |
| won't be putting them in as part of the project but they do sometimes do that after if there's problems with people. I would just | 00:33:43 | |
| anticipate and we have the the summer celebrations lots of parking, I can see there be some. | 00:33:50 | |
| Some use, but I mean that's not a use like that is usually not gonna make them put the gates up. | 00:33:58 | |
| An observation that I have about some of the earliest chapels that are in residential areas is that the parking lot is used for a | 00:34:05 | |
| cut through by people who live there and don't want to go all the way around the block and that can cause some safety issues, the | 00:34:13 | |
| way they come out onto the streets and so on. And is there anything? I'm just trying to visualize this. I know there's a street on | 00:34:22 | |
| the upper side. What is that north or what direction is that North is that? Yeah. And I and on the other entrance to the property. | 00:34:30 | |
| There appears to be a street there as well. | 00:34:39 | |
| My only recommendation is you put a BBQ snippet for the community somewhere in there. | 00:35:29 | |
| I'll call the church and ask him about that and let you know. | 00:35:36 | |
| Because one of the things that the last time you guys came through, there was some concern about lighting from the pavilion that | 00:36:15 | |
| would, you know, provide light pollution to the neighbors adjacent to it, so. | 00:36:20 | |
| Yeah. So I I guess that that's like how is it designed? Is it just the Castor pointing down? Is it is it usually is more like | 00:36:27 | |
| these lights where it's mounted to the deck on the bottom And so it would only really shine down with a little bit of bleak to the | 00:36:33 | |
| side, but not much. OK. So they're they're down downward facing then, Yeah, OK. | 00:36:39 | |
| And the only area of grass in this landscaping area is. | 00:36:48 | |
| That S part of South. | 00:36:53 | |
| Yeah, You're welcome. | 00:37:02 | |
| So they could see it. I think it's on page 17. | 00:37:06 | |
| Nope. | 00:37:12 | |
| Of one off, Yeah. | 00:37:23 | |
| Yeah, so this is a. | 00:37:25 | |
| Very water wise. They're escaped landscape design with rocks, mulch and. | 00:37:27 | |
| The items are listed here on the side, yeah. | 00:37:36 | |
| Rocks that would be bigger than little kids control. | 00:37:40 | |
| Just just big enough, yeah. | 00:37:45 | |
| We actually make them slingshot size, so they're very flexible. | 00:37:48 | |
| Yeah. | 00:37:53 | |
| If we don't have any other questions right now from the Commission, we can open this up to the public. So if there's a motion to | 00:37:55 | |
| make this up, open a public hearing, so moved. | 00:38:00 | |
| All in favor? Aye. OK. So if there's any members of the public who wish to make any comments or questions based on this agenda | 00:38:07 | |
| item, you can come up to the podium. So I actually, I've, I've received a few. This is cash fancy. | 00:38:15 | |
| Just some neighbors on the the border, the property to the east. | 00:38:24 | |
| They just have some questions about how that fence is going to be installed because I believe they're in the process of putting up | 00:38:27 | |
| their own fence. So they just wanted to hear a little bit more detail as to how that fence is going to look. I believe that there | 00:38:33 | |
| might even be some like grade change between the Eastern properties and this property too. So can you just speak to that a little | 00:38:38 | |
| bit? | 00:38:44 | |
| So I'm I'm not familiar with that particular issue but in the past we've worked out with the the neighboring fence owners. We | 00:38:50 | |
| would normally request that we can install our own fence and that they just don't put one up until this one's in. And we would | 00:38:57 | |
| work out the grade with them to to ensure that there's not a big difference. And if there if there's a big difference it's not | 00:39:04 | |
| something we can overcome. We would install a retaining wall so that would it would work if the grade. | 00:39:12 | |
| That it. | 00:39:25 | |
| I mean, I've only got an e-mail about it, so I don't know if that does answer the question or not. | 00:39:28 | |
| Right, and the fence is 6 feet in height and brown. They did want to do a retaining wall without require any kind of. | 00:39:33 | |
| If they needed to, would that require any kind of amendment? | 00:39:42 | |
| I think they would just have to go through a building permit, open as required. | 00:39:47 | |
| If it's over 4 feet 13 more than it would require a building permit, right. So maybe a follow up question then on that is gets the | 00:39:54 | |
| timing, you know for some of these residents trying to decide whether to build a fence is how long might they be waiting. So I | 00:40:00 | |
| don't know if you've got any information as we discussed before, we we have seen some plans for this before that have not been | 00:40:06 | |
| executed. So it might be important for those in order to know that. | 00:40:12 | |
| The, the plan was to have already bid this and get it under construction by this date. But they the landscaping plan is kind of a | 00:40:18 | |
| pilot project. They're trying to decide whether to move more towards a really water wise plan or not. And it's taken a lot, a lot | 00:40:25 | |
| more review time. So we are a little bit delayed, but I don't anticipate that it will be more than a year before the fence would | 00:40:31 | |
| be installed. The intent is you're moving on this project, right. We would we would expect by next spring sometime. | 00:40:38 | |
| According to what we've been told recently, it would be done OK. | 00:40:45 | |
| Great. I had one more question. This is for the storm water with elevation change. I assume the plan that there's not going to be | 00:40:48 | |
| runoff issues or anything for neighbors that have elevation lower than that. I think the state law requires that we maintain all | 00:40:55 | |
| our own and discharge it to whatever the city requires that we don't bleed over to any neighbors. So we design it that way | 00:41:02 | |
| typically in business in the door, the plans to actually do have a cut detail showing that any kind of graduation where between | 00:41:08 | |
| the neighbors. | 00:41:15 | |
| And the church, excuse me, where there's a small Swale and to allow the water this way into the ground. Thank you. | 00:41:22 | |
| There any other questions from the public? | 00:41:31 | |
| OK, then. Do I have a motion to close the public hearing? | 00:41:34 | |
| To close the public hearing a second all in favor, aye? | 00:41:38 | |
| OK. Do you have anything? Yeah, but I'd just like to read the conditions of approval if we're ready. | 00:41:43 | |
| Yeah. I mean, are there any other questions or? | 00:41:49 | |
| OK. Go ahead, Tim. Brian, yeah. | 00:41:52 | |
| So conditions for approval are that the area that the areas of the parking lot are adequately lit as we discussed, especially the | 00:41:55 | |
| western part of the of the of the parking lot of the property that all pressing walkways that cross driveways shall be adequately | 00:42:01 | |
| differentiated. | 00:42:08 | |
| The applicant shall change the diagonal ramp, pedestrian crossing, landing at the northwest corner of the property at 220 W and | 00:42:15 | |
| 240 N to directional grants. | 00:42:20 | |
| The applicant shall avoided deeply vegetation around meters and fire hydrants and all exterior wall signage shall be reviewed | 00:42:26 | |
| through a separate sign permit. Am I missing? | 00:42:31 | |
| 1. | 00:42:38 | |
| Oh yeah, the easement. Yes, I've got a condition written and I could read in the record and change it if you want, but it's and | 00:42:40 | |
| these will be provided for the trail on the north side of the of the property to accommodate any portion of the trail located | 00:42:45 | |
| within the applicants property. | 00:42:50 | |
| Awesome. Could I ask a question to clarify, when we say adequately differentiated on a sidewalk crossing, do we have that defined | 00:42:55 | |
| in our code? We do. There's a code section in the staff report. | 00:43:01 | |
| Yeah, it's it's, it's, it's. Clearly, it's pretty detailed. It's got it per the code. | 00:43:07 | |
| OK, do I have a motion? | 00:43:15 | |
| Yeah, I'm going to approve the site plan and Conditional use permit as required by Mike Davey with Bhd. | 00:43:18 | |
| Architects with the proposed conditions. | 00:43:25 | |
| As mentioned. | 00:43:29 | |
| 2nd. That. | 00:43:32 | |
| All in favor, aye. | 00:43:34 | |
| Motion passes. | 00:43:37 | |
| Thank you. Thank you, Bernard. Thank you. You're welcome. | 00:43:38 | |
| All right. | 00:43:43 | |
| OK, agenda item 5.1 is a work session. So that means we will not be taking any action on any items that we have a traffic impact | 00:43:46 | |
| study training from Ryan Hales with Hales Engineering to give us some an educational seminar regarding uses and benefits of | 00:43:52 | |
| traffic impact studies. | 00:43:57 | |
| So come on up, Ryan. Unless Brian Morgan, are you guys providing an introduction? Nope. Miss you. | 00:44:06 | |
| OK, this is the scene in the door. I would like to interview Sir Mr. Whitehouse who is a not only a traffic engineer but youth SLA | 00:44:15 | |
| certified planner. | 00:44:20 | |
| So. | 00:44:26 | |
| This is the important stuff for us, for people to understand. It's a lot to complicate things, going to a detailed report and that | 00:44:30 | |
| gets turned out. And it's present to planning commissions and city councils to make educated decisions. | 00:44:37 | |
| You said two hours. If there's future. If there's future training you guys want on a specific topic, let us know. | 00:45:17 | |
| Next morning, I want this to be really informant. So I hope you'll apologize for me making it more informal as we go. We did this | 00:45:23 | |
| presentation down at the city engineers conference. So all the city engineers gather, they have their meetings just like a group | 00:45:29 | |
| would. And so we presented this talking about traffic in taxes and the same thought and thought it might be good for you guys to | 00:45:34 | |
| go through it. Josh Gibbons would have been here with me. He's he's out this evening. He actually just got back from Disneyland. | 00:45:40 | |
| Lucky guy. | 00:45:46 | |
| So he is not here tonight. He is attending another meeting. | 00:45:53 | |
| But I just want to go through a couple of things real quick. We've done over 2000 studies in the area, Utah area. | 00:45:57 | |
| We do have, we are doing studies outside and various other areas, but a lot of that is traffic impact. So we work. | 00:46:04 | |
| And really what this is, is a traffic impact study is kind of where you go from the transportation Master plan down to the PACE | 00:46:10 | |
| plant level. | 00:46:14 | |
| And it's something that's really important because what we're trying to do is bridge the gap between your transportation Master | 00:46:19 | |
| plan. You've all seen the transportation master plan. We identify roadways that that need to be upgraded. We might have a three | 00:46:24 | |
| lane Rd. that needs to be classified as a major collector and that would be a future improvement. So you look at moving from 2:00 | 00:46:29 | |
| to 3:00 lanes or three to five lanes, whatever that might be. | 00:46:34 | |
| But a traffic impact study really comes down and narrows that focus down. | 00:47:12 | |
| And brings us down to about 1000 feet. So when you're you're coming in on final approach and you're you're about to land, you can | 00:47:16 | |
| look out the window, you can see the cars pulling out sometimes, you can see the lights turning red, green, whatever it might be. | 00:47:21 | |
| And you might be looking out at the pocket saying OK, that turn pocket. | 00:47:27 | |
| Well, that's a it's short because cars are spilling out of it. That's called Q spillover. | 00:47:32 | |
| And so that's really what it's about kind of between your transportation master plan, your traffic impact study. | 00:47:37 | |
| We do a lot of traffic study review for you doubt anytime there's a warrant study anywhere in the state, we end up reviewing that | 00:47:44 | |
| meaning a traffic signal. So if Masin called Doug Bassett over at Region 3 and said. | 00:47:50 | |
| So we look at that, we look at the United standards and we give that final stamp of approval that that goes for crosswalk studies, | 00:48:30 | |
| speed reduction studies, speed increases. | 00:48:35 | |
| And then passing zones and then corridor studies is one of the new things that they've started doing. | 00:48:40 | |
| This graphic may not do it well. I apologize. We've got a PDF version that we're rolling through right now instead of the the | 00:48:47 | |
| PowerPoint. | 00:48:50 | |
| But you all have a general plan. | 00:48:55 | |
| Really, the transportation element starts from the General plan. You've probably all been a part of that, or at least seen the | 00:48:57 | |
| general plan. | 00:49:00 | |
| And you look at the land uses, those land uses help drive transportation, and transportation drives land use. It's a cyclical | 00:49:03 | |
| process. | 00:49:08 | |
| So typically you build A2 lane Rd. as an example. | 00:49:13 | |
| Somebody comes in and says, gosh, you know what, I'd like to develop in this area and this is what I want to develop. So you look | 00:49:17 | |
| at that in your general plan and you say, does that fit? | 00:49:20 | |
| Is that the context of what we want? Do we want residential Missouri or do we want commercial? | 00:49:25 | |
| So once you decide if it's commercial that you do want, you start looking into the future and saying, OK, what does that mean? | 00:49:29 | |
| This two Lane Rd. can't stay A2 Lane Rd. forever. | 00:49:33 | |
| And that's where the traffic impact study helps out. | 00:49:38 | |
| We might look at that intersection and say instead of being just a two lane Rd. flying at 30,000 feet or 10,000 feet. | 00:49:41 | |
| We're now fine at 1000 feet. We know we need to change the control of the intersection. We can't have it as a free for all. It | 00:49:49 | |
| can't be no controlled intersection. A2 way stop may not be adequate. We might have to go to a four way stop, a roundabout or a | 00:49:54 | |
| traffic signal. | 00:49:58 | |
| And so we start really drilling down from the general plan through the Transportation Master Plan and into a traffic impact city | 00:50:03 | |
| and we bring all of those components together. | 00:50:07 | |
| So when the traffic impact studies done? | 00:50:13 | |
| We're looking at what is Utah doing, You know, what are their long range plans, what kind of improvements do they have? | 00:50:15 | |
| In their long range plan, what does the Mountain Land Association of Governments, what do they do in their long range plan? Do | 00:50:22 | |
| they have any roads coming? What is the city's transportation master plan look like and what is this development going to do to | 00:50:28 | |
| the area? And so we start bringing all of that information together to build this traffic impact study. | 00:50:33 | |
| And then we identify what type, what types of improvements would be necessary. | 00:50:40 | |
| There's a low level traffic impact study, I'll call that a trip generation study. You dot is doing a few more of these now. When | 00:50:45 | |
| they have a very low impact they'll look at it and say just give us a trip Gen. study so we can identify whether we need turn | 00:50:51 | |
| pockets, whether we need a right turn or a left turn deceleration lane, do we need acceleration lanes. | 00:50:58 | |
| So they use that trip generation to do that. | 00:51:04 | |
| Some of you that work in the field and are familiar with it, if there's if there's something going on a smaller project, let's say | 00:51:09 | |
| it's five residential lots. | 00:51:13 | |
| Probably not going to do anything. | 00:51:17 | |
| You wouldn't really need to study that in any kind of detail. | 00:51:19 | |
| But when you get into a traffic impact study, usually you're looking at a larger project. Maybe it's a mix of uses. It's either a | 00:51:23 | |
| vertical mixed-use or a horizontal mixed-use laid out. | 00:51:27 | |
| Or it could be a large residential subdivision. You just want to know what the access points look like. | 00:51:31 | |
| And how traffic flows. | 00:51:36 | |
| Traffic study elements. | 00:51:40 | |
| We lost a little bit of sorry. | 00:51:42 | |
| I think we lost a little bit going to the PDF. | 00:51:44 | |
| That's OK. That's OK. We'll just. | 00:51:46 | |
| I'm going to board you the chairs if I go through all these slides anyway, right? | 00:51:49 | |
| So one of the basis of beginnings for any traffic study is to look at the counts. We really need to know kind of a, you know, | 00:51:54 | |
| floating on the ground and understand what the traffic is doing. | 00:51:58 | |
| And then we make an evaluation of that when we go out to do those counts. | 00:52:03 | |
| The Standard Time that we count is usually a Tuesday, Wednesday, or a Thursday of a weekday, or a Saturday if it's a large | 00:52:07 | |
| commercial project. | 00:52:11 | |
| And so as you review these as planning Commissioners and I sat on a Planning Commission for four years. | 00:52:15 | |
| It was great, I loved it, but it was a long time ago. | 00:52:21 | |
| And. | 00:52:25 | |
| I wish I could still do more of that. | 00:52:27 | |
| But when you review these traffic impact studies, you can go back and look. They should not have been counted on Monday or Friday | 00:52:29 | |
| because typically those are different days, standardized days again Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. | 00:52:35 | |
| We usually count in the morning. We try and capture the peak morning period and we try and capture the peak evening period. | 00:52:41 | |
| If you're on State Street in Sandy City as an example, and you're counting traffic volumes. | 00:52:47 | |
| 7 to 9 you're probably going to capture the peak out load when people are leaving for work, so you might have a heavy flow of | 00:52:54 | |
| traffic going out towards the freeway. | 00:52:58 | |
| At night, between 4:00 and 6:00, you're gonna see a peak flow coming back in. | 00:53:02 | |
| When we worked on Rio Tinto Stadium, we had a different peak. We had a peak for a game time. A peak was usually later in the | 00:53:07 | |
| evening. The stadium loads in at about 7:00 PM for a game kick, and so it's loading in between 5:00 and 6:00. | 00:53:13 | |
| Or between 6:00 and 7:00, depending on what time of the year we're in. And so we look at offset peaks. If you're out in Tuola | 00:53:21 | |
| County, let's say you're in downtown Tooele. They might have an earlier peak because traffic is leaving earlier. | 00:53:26 | |
| In Vineyard, you're pretty much a standard peak. You're 7:00 to 9:00 and 4:00 to 6:00, so that's what you want to look for in a | 00:53:32 | |
| study. | 00:53:35 | |
| Saturdays we typically do a noon hour between 11 and probably 1:00 in the afternoon. Again, sometimes that can shift depending on | 00:53:39 | |
| the use. | 00:53:44 | |
| Average daily traffic counts. Sometimes we do an average daily traffic count rather than going to the intersection, I apologize. | 00:53:50 | |
| Let me go back to the intersection journey. Can I ask a question about just about the peak while while you're on that with the the | 00:53:56 | |
| university and that's going to be a major land use within our city that I would think has kind of a different peak than than your | 00:54:02 | |
| standard like office hour or work day. Do you do you anticipate at some level of build out? I know you've looked at the city quite | 00:54:08 | |
| a bit would our peak change. | 00:54:14 | |
| Do you think is that enough of a? | 00:54:21 | |
| Is that enough of A use that it would change our overall peak for our city? But that makes different than like a, you know, a | 00:54:24 | |
| Linden or something like that. Yeah, that's a great question. We're doing work at UVU one time and we asked them what their peak | 00:54:30 | |
| hours were and their what their peak days were and they have Monday, Wednesday, Friday classes, Tuesday, Thursday classes. | 00:54:36 | |
| And they identified that their peak was on a Monday and a Wednesday and it was in the AM peak hour. So most classes starting | 00:54:42 | |
| probably mid morning like 9 to 10. So what you might have is an offsetting peak, but you might find them and you'll need to look | 00:54:47 | |
| at it and see where the dips are a tube count well. | 00:54:53 | |
| An ADT count, and that's a glass bullet item on the sheet, is usually what we would do is we'd go out and lay tubes out, identify | 00:54:59 | |
| how much traffic is there and what time of the day is that peak. | 00:55:03 | |
| So you may have a different peak sometimes what we find around university. So it's more of a spread outflow, it's spread during | 00:55:08 | |
| the day. | 00:55:11 | |
| Great question. | 00:55:16 | |
| Typically though, we go out on the first bullet and we count with a little counters. It looks like a game box. | 00:55:17 | |
| And you can just push the button. You can hear audible beep, and you're counting how many cars turn left, how many go through, and | 00:55:23 | |
| how many go right. And you count pedestrians. | 00:55:26 | |
| And so, you know, that sounds really boring. | 00:55:31 | |
| Give it to a kid like a video game and told him to go watch the traffic. | 00:55:33 | |
| I'm only kidding. We don't let kids do it. But. | 00:55:38 | |
| The idea behind it is that you collect actual data and then we go in and we adjust it. So right now we're coming out of COVID. | 00:55:41 | |
| But we have been doing COVID adjustments for all of the projects that we've been working on. | 00:55:48 | |
| It's the same thing the dot does when the dot is going out and they're looking at major roads, they're doing adjustments for COVID | 00:55:52 | |
| related traffic volumes. What we found was that many of the the traffic volumes in the area, many roadways has gone down because | 00:55:59 | |
| people are working from home. Now that we're starting to ease up and people are going back into the office, it's coming back up. | 00:56:05 | |
| Internally, we discussed whether we would continue to do that, but we still continue to find 9 to 10% adjustments in some | 00:56:13 | |
| locations and some it's, it's spot on, we're back to where we were or above. | 00:56:18 | |
| Right. I wonder if there's going to be long term adjustments to that too, just because. | 00:56:28 | |
| I don't know. | 00:56:34 | |
| That's a tangent, but personally I think they're I still think more people come back to work in the office than they're still | 00:56:36 | |
| working home. I think there'll be be some at home working burnout down the road, but but I think that because of the flexibility, | 00:56:41 | |
| I wonder if that'll affect the long term numbers too, if some of that. | 00:56:46 | |
| COVID. COVID adjustment may never bounce back because so many people are adjusting to working from home permanently now. Yeah, I | 00:56:52 | |
| absolutely agree, Jeff. I think that's a great comment. What what it does is they have a trip generation manual. It's manually | 00:56:57 | |
| published about every three or four years. They republish it. They add new data points to it. | 00:57:03 | |
| And just like things, banks used to be a really big deal. You know, my my grandma and grandpa would always go to the bank. They | 00:57:09 | |
| would make a drive down and make the deposit, take money out, go back and forth, you know, whatever it was. But they were down at | 00:57:14 | |
| the bank all the time, it seemed like. And now we just jump online, we do our banking, we're done and we're out. | 00:57:20 | |
| And it's all electronic, you know, we're paying off credit cards, doing things like that electronically. | 00:57:26 | |
| I was in the audience. | 00:57:33 | |
| Steven. | 00:57:36 | |
| You guys are stuck for training. I'm sorry. | 00:57:41 | |
| I would have loved to. | 00:57:45 | |
| Now the church generation annual is something they continually update and so one of the things that you'll notice is that. | 00:57:47 | |
| About every two or three years, I come out with a new version. This one just came out in November, so it's newer. But again, I | 00:57:53 | |
| think, Jeff, back to your point, I think they'll go out and do some more counting and they'll find that numbers have changed. | 00:57:58 | |
| Probably we've had more of a shift than we'll ever recover from. | 00:58:03 | |
| I would agree with that. | 00:58:09 | |
| When we talk about troops entering a site. | 00:58:11 | |
| Each one of you Anthony gives you as an example, you you get in your car and you drive from your your driveway. | 00:58:15 | |
| Over to the grocery store when you back out. | 00:58:22 | |
| As a traffic engineer, we call that a trip. That's one trip or a trip end is probably the more appropriate way to see it. When you | 00:58:25 | |
| go into the grocery store, that's a trip in. So trip out at your house, a trip in at the grocery store. When you leave the grocery | 00:58:30 | |
| store, it's a trip out. When you go back to your house, it's a trip in. | 00:58:34 | |
| So that's for trip ends, but if you were standing there on the roadway. | 00:58:40 | |
| And let's say Christopher, you're standing on the roadway and Anthony goes driving by. You're going to see him going by the | 00:58:45 | |
| grocery store and you'll see him come back. | 00:58:48 | |
| So you would have counted 2 trips on the roadway. | 00:58:52 | |
| But as traffic engineers were counting trip ends because we're looking at how the traffic moves left and right turn movements, and | 00:58:54 | |
| we're making sure that each of the intersections can handle that amount of traffic. | 00:58:59 | |
| So there's a little bit of double counting in the way that we do it. | 00:59:05 | |
| But it's to be on the conservative side and to make sure the analysis is appropriate that we know when you turn left to go to the | 00:59:08 | |
| grocery store and when you turn right coming back home. | 00:59:13 | |
| I don't know just because I think that that we need to kind of look at that when we when we consider vinegar. | 01:00:22 | |
| Yeah, no, that's a great question. What do you call the shopping center over here where the theaters are? It's called the yard. | 01:00:28 | |
| It's everyone calls it that the megaplex site, but it's it's, it's called the art well and and that's what I'm going to use it as | 01:00:34 | |
| an example. So I, I, I Co teach with Doctor UNF a couple classes of EU of You and we're planning to do another one this summer. | 01:00:40 | |
| But. | 01:00:47 | |
| Really what we're focused on, what Reid was focused on, is what happens when you go to a place like the Ark. | 01:00:49 | |
| You drive in, you get out of your car, you might want to go and grab dinner. You know, maybe you're going over to Chubby's and | 01:00:54 | |
| grabbing a burger, and then you're gonna walk over to the theater. Well, you've only driven in once, You've only parked once. And | 01:00:59 | |
| yet when we look at these studies, you know Chubby's comes in, we're going, Well, you need 25 parking spaces because that's what | 01:01:04 | |
| our code says. In the theaters, we're saying you need 200 because that's what the code says. | 01:01:09 | |
| Well, the problem with that is that we're now double counting parking and so we're over parking everything. | 01:01:15 | |
| So it's not only over parking, but it's trips because you've driven in once and you're visiting two sites. And so that's where | 01:01:19 | |
| Reed's work has been instrumental in looking at trying to reduce strips. | 01:01:24 | |
| And so as he's trying to look at how to reduce trips from an overall perspective, he's looking more at and mixed-use developments. | 01:01:30 | |
| So they are going to be a great example. | 01:01:37 | |
| Working on. | 01:01:41 | |
| Now I can't think of the Vineyard Town Center. We did the same thing. | 01:01:44 | |
| We used reviewing's equations because we didn't want to double count those trips. | 01:01:47 | |
| So Anthony, again going back to your trip to the grocery store. | 01:01:52 | |
| Same thing going into the to the yard. We're making sure that we're not counting Anthony parking at both places, and we're also | 01:01:55 | |
| making sure that we're not counting each one of his trips. | 01:01:59 | |
| A trip that's affected by the overall development because we need to account those in the right way. So it's it's about an | 01:02:04 | |
| accounting order. It's almost like taking out a tally sheet and going through and saying we need to cut these in half. | 01:02:11 | |
| Or 2/3 or whatever that is. | 01:02:19 | |
| So it went in. Brian Bochner from the Texas Transportation Institute. | 01:02:50 | |
| Started looking at it on a parallel course to reviewing. They both looked at it and said we've got to do something about this, | 01:02:56 | |
| we're we're double counting the trips, we're adding too much parking, we can do this better. | 01:03:01 | |
| And so there's two different methodologies. It is stuck with the Boschner side of things. | 01:03:07 | |
| And reviewing stuff is becoming more prominent in circles like the EPA and those who are doing the larger mixed-use projects are | 01:03:11 | |
| looking at it more favorably. | 01:03:16 | |
| Because it's a better accounting system for the way things are done. So I think it will come around eventually, but they're not | 01:03:22 | |
| there yet. | 01:03:25 | |
| I have a question. | 01:03:29 | |
| So it's interesting to me that. | 01:03:32 | |
| It seems very focused on automobile traffic, right? Yet this trip manual doesn't show an automobile on it shows people walking and | 01:03:35 | |
| biking. Doesn't really count for the workers, but. | 01:03:40 | |
| The city in our general plan has a pretty robust active transportation plan and you definitely want to accommodate vehicles and | 01:03:48 | |
| make sure, but that that shouldn't necessarily be the top priority is to move a vehicle that it's getting people put places | 01:03:53 | |
| safely. | 01:03:58 | |
| And particularly pedestrians. And so I'm curious if these studies take into account some of that may may not be as applicable in | 01:04:05 | |
| like a residential area, but as we get higher density commercial areas and retail areas. | 01:04:11 | |
| I'm just curious like what types of studies you do there because it seems very focused on automobile trips. Yeah. And that's why | 01:04:17 | |
| we, when we came in and did the Vineyard Town Center, we actually took the IT stuff and we use it for short generation. But that's | 01:04:23 | |
| where it ends and that's where we jumped into reviewings methodology. And the reason we did that is just because of the The | 01:04:28 | |
| Walking ability, because we're looking at walking density, we're looking at intersection density really correlates well with | 01:04:34 | |
| walking if you've got shorter blocks. | 01:04:40 | |
| That means you got shorter block lengths, you get shorter walking distance, and you've got more things around you that you would | 01:04:47 | |
| walk to. | 01:04:50 | |
| That creates a difference and so that's what we used. So we actually looked at The Walking and we looked at bicycles and | 01:04:54 | |
| alternative transportation modes such as bus. | 01:04:58 | |
| Just making sure we're looking at everything. | 01:05:03 | |
| So what we did on the Vineyard Town Center was more robust than what you see in a normal traffic impact study. | 01:05:05 | |
| Most of them are just out of the book, Jeff. Even the one we did for you is just out of the book. | 01:05:11 | |
| Because even though it was in a mixed-use environment, there's a big roadway separating everything. There wasn't a lot of | 01:05:15 | |
| opportunity between those land uses. | 01:05:19 | |
| And then, yeah, kind of a follow up to that is do you ever? | 01:05:24 | |
| Maybe it's outside of your scope, but do you make recommendations on like public transportation or identify areas where? | 01:05:29 | |
| It's not necessarily you need a bigger Rd. here, but like a bus route could could help out here or something like that. You do | 01:05:36 | |
| that as part of your scope, Yeah, yeah. We worked on a large project for Sandy City. It was between 90th South and 106 S, between | 01:05:43 | |
| State Street and I-15. And Mayor Dolan when he was married at the time, wanted to do something more robust. | 01:05:49 | |
| And So what he wanted to look at is he wanted to look at a local circulator system. When we're doing Rio Tinto Stadium, he came in | 01:05:57 | |
| and said, can we do something different? | 01:06:00 | |
| And I told them, yeah, we we can do something different. That's where you want to go. And so we started using some of renewing | 01:06:04 | |
| methodologies which had just come out at the time. | 01:06:09 | |
| And so we use those, We lowered the trip count, we lower the parking, and we invented a circulator to run through the area. | 01:06:13 | |
| At that time, and this is no offense to anybody, it had not been discussed at Utah, to my knowledge, about connecting light rail | 01:06:20 | |
| that runs on the backside of Sandy. So the backside of. | 01:06:26 | |
| The Exposition center up there and Jordan Commons, But then they had commuter rail that was coming and we said wouldn't it be nice | 01:06:33 | |
| to link those two? | 01:06:37 | |
| And they said it would. That'd be great. And then maybe a local circulator. So Sandy City looked at their their transit tax. | 01:06:42 | |
| Then they went to UTA and said if you don't. | 01:06:49 | |
| Promote a local circulator, then our transit tax, we're going to keep that and build their own circulation system. | 01:06:51 | |
| UTA came in and said that's a great idea, We'll look at it for you. | 01:06:58 | |
| And so they looked at it. Right now, there's still no local circulation system. | 01:07:01 | |
| They deemed it wasn't feasible yet, but they are now connecting commuter rail and light rail together. | 01:07:05 | |
| And so there's, there's been some great benefit out of that, but as that area continues to build and they're just starting on it. | 01:07:11 | |
| For those of you that don't know, the stadium faces Northwest. | 01:07:17 | |
| There's a big grand staircase on the northwest side of that stadium and that's the grand staircase where they want people coming | 01:07:20 | |
| from. | 01:07:23 | |
| They're planning future land use plan is parking structures and office buildings and a Greenway that goes all the way from the | 01:07:27 | |
| soccer team all the way out to the 90th South I-15 intersection. | 01:07:31 | |
| And so it's still coming, it's still in in fruition. | 01:07:37 | |
| But they're just taking baby steps together, one development parcel at a time. | 01:07:40 | |
| No, no, just your copy back on is answering your question, but the active transportation plan that was presented at the last | 01:07:45 | |
| workshop. | 01:07:49 | |
| Mr. Hills provided a lot of information, background information in regards to the traffic studies towards that as well. | 01:07:54 | |
| I had AI had a question for you. How far does it look? Because in in Vineyard, we're bottlenecked, all the residential units | 01:08:02 | |
| basically have 3 exit points in Vineyard. Whenever there's something built in Vineyard, do you look at those three spots or how | 01:08:08 | |
| far does it, how far do you usually look? | 01:08:14 | |
| Not necessarily. We're looking at all three of those spots, but we're looking. So your transportation master plan would be the | 01:08:22 | |
| global overriding system. | 01:08:25 | |
| You guys might kick me for saying this. | 01:08:31 | |
| In another community and I won't tell you which one yet. | 01:08:35 | |
| You guys can ask later, but. | 01:08:37 | |
| In another community, we're looking at full build of the entire community. | 01:08:39 | |
| What what Mag does, they do a great job of planning. They're looking out to your 2050 right now. That's the long range vision and | 01:08:44 | |
| it's hard, it's hard for anybody to look out 50 years and and identify what's going to be there. The change in truck generation | 01:08:48 | |
| just from Covad. | 01:08:53 | |
| Nobody knew COVID was going to come and hit this hard. And you know, 10 years ago, nobody had any idea. | 01:08:58 | |
| Now that we're there, things are changing. As Meg looks at planning for the future, they look at a 2050 horizon right now. At some | 01:09:03 | |
| point they'll switch to a 2060. They usually take 10 year incremental leads. | 01:09:08 | |
| But in another community, they said we want to look at full build out. | 01:09:14 | |
| Three access points, full build out. You're going to know what the long term plan is. You don't have any neighbors to the West. | 01:09:18 | |
| It's just a lake. | 01:09:23 | |
| We like it like that. | 01:09:26 | |
| Yeah, no, it's it's a great place. Vineyards in a great place because you don't have neighbors to the West. Any neighbors that are | 01:09:30 | |
| North and South for the most part, I'm not generally cutting through the area because you know, the way we've got the bend and the | 01:09:35 | |
| natural topography, people are in I-15 going north-south. Some will be on Vineyard connector of course. | 01:09:41 | |
| But generally speaking, going to the South, there's not a huge demand to go into that northeast or northwest area of Provo and | 01:09:48 | |
| Orem. | 01:09:51 | |
| Again, because you're bounded by the lake, there's not a lot of build in that area, so you don't get a lot of demand. | 01:09:55 | |
| And so you're in a very good situation where you. | 01:10:01 | |
| There have been thoughts about pushing the vineyard connector further to the South. | 01:10:04 | |
| At one time I saw those where they had a line through Vineyard going further South. I don't think that's even on the radar screen | 01:10:08 | |
| anymore. | 01:10:10 | |
| But where it bends and goes out eighth N that that's a good connection point for it. | 01:10:14 | |
| But a full build out scenario. | 01:10:20 | |
| Might be very suitable for looking at all three of those access points to say what happens when we're fully built out. | 01:10:23 | |
| Rather than right now, if there's a lake crossing, it'd be nice to know if that lake crossing is coming, where it's coming in and. | 01:10:28 | |
| Either plan for it or not plan for it. | 01:10:34 | |
| Sorry, we're going to be on traffic impact. So it's a great question. | 01:10:38 | |
| Sometimes in the 18th generation manual, they don't have things for trip generation. | 01:10:44 | |
| You might have something that comes in the vineyard that is not in the manual. | 01:10:49 | |
| And in that case, we try and grab local data and we go look at it. I'll use something goofy that you've probably never seen. Let's | 01:10:53 | |
| say you've got a a miniature golf hunting course and a laundromat coming together. | 01:10:58 | |
| Yeah, nobody's ever studied one of those because they don't do them. | 01:11:05 | |
| But if you had something strange that came in, you would have to go study something similar and then bring that data and | 01:11:08 | |
| extrapolate it into the site. | 01:11:12 | |
| And so the book is very good. It has many, many land uses and things in it, but not everything. | 01:11:16 | |
| Trip reductions. We talked about this already in brevity, but when you pull into the site looking at the mixed-use internal | 01:11:21 | |
| capture. | 01:11:25 | |
| When you pull into a site and you visit multiple. | 01:11:29 | |
| Opportunities on that site, whether it's you office there and your family meets you there for dinner and then you're going to the | 01:11:32 | |
| movie theater. | 01:11:35 | |
| You'll be able to reduce the trips. Those are called internal capture trips. | 01:11:39 | |
| And so we always train and minimize again the double counting of trips on the roadway by looking at internal capture. | 01:11:43 | |
| But in addition to that and this comes back to your point, Anthony, as you come in, you look at multimodal approach and you take | 01:11:50 | |
| reductions. So even on a standard traffic impact study, we're looking at how are people arriving at the site, it's not all | 01:11:55 | |
| automobiles in a winter condition it might be. So we we've got a little bit of variation that we look at those and we we try and | 01:11:59 | |
| make an educated guess. | 01:12:04 | |
| And use data to try and prove what we're looking at. | 01:12:09 | |
| If you go and look at Journey to work data from the Census. | 01:12:13 | |
| You'll find the majority of people are driving in an automobile to travel to work. | 01:12:17 | |
| I think it's around 92%, maybe even 93%. | 01:12:21 | |
| Walking to work Pretty small. | 01:12:24 | |
| We don't have a great environment in Utah for really walking to work, but if you were in New York. | 01:12:27 | |
| And living in downtown, people in Manhattan walk to work. They take the subway, They take black taxi service. They use Ubers, | 01:12:31 | |
| Lyft, whatever it might be. But they're moving around without their own personal vehicle. | 01:12:37 | |
| And Uber, left is a whole other thing, but it's actually going to ask about how you. | 01:12:44 | |
| It's like I may not go to the grocery store and I get my groceries delivered. It saves me personally a trip. But there's still a | 01:12:50 | |
| trip that takes place or like DoorDash and all that that's that's going on even like Amazon, FedEx deliveries, those types of | 01:12:56 | |
| things. How is that calculated into some of this now? Because you might reduce your retail shopping in person, but you still get | 01:13:02 | |
| packages to your home and I think that's a part of it. As we talk about these, these changing trip dynamics, I think that'll | 01:13:07 | |
| change in the next couple of manuals. | 01:13:13 | |
| Interesting, I know. I was just saying our Amazon account is contributing to daily trips from an Amazon deliverer. | 01:13:20 | |
| It was at my test, but we need it every day. | 01:13:30 | |
| I was at my destiny at 3:00 and I ordered something on Amazon for the office, office supplies and. | 01:13:35 | |
| The message popped up and it said it'll be delivered between 5:00 and 10:00 PM tonight. Anyway, what? | 01:13:42 | |
| Amazon is getting so efficient and they've got a lot of same day facilities are popping up around. | 01:13:48 | |
| So you're seeing those more. | 01:13:53 | |
| Interesting. Dynamics are changing. | 01:13:56 | |
| Trip assignment. So we always look at the distribution of trips. This happens to be. | 01:13:59 | |
| If this was Moab. | 01:14:03 | |
| But we look at distribution of trips and where are people coming to and how are they getting there. And so that really comes from | 01:14:05 | |
| the traffic counts and the data. I won't spend a lot of time on that. | 01:14:10 | |
| But it is based on something that's that's real. It's not just a, you know, stick your thumb up in the air and see which way the | 01:14:15 | |
| winds blowing. | 01:14:18 | |
| From that we take and we build the intersections. We take the timing of the travel light or the the traffic signals. We put that | 01:14:22 | |
| into a simulation model and then we run that simulation 10 times. | 01:14:28 | |
| It's stochastic. That means it's statistically based analysis and so we have to run it more than once to get an analysis. | 01:14:34 | |
| And we look at it. We take the 95th percentile healing so that we know that we've hit the QA mark. We're not missing anything. | 01:14:40 | |
| And then we look at how the intersections function. The timing for those lights is not a guess either. We we contact you dot, we | 01:14:46 | |
| get the timing of their lights. We put that into the simulation models when we run them, so we know what the pet timing is. How | 01:14:52 | |
| much time are they allocating for pedestrians, for bicyclists, and for vehicles? | 01:14:57 | |
| And then we look at the level of service, it's just a major, it's like a yardstick and we just say A through FE&F are not good. We | 01:15:03 | |
| don't want E or F but we'll go down to level of service. D is generally acceptable by the dot. | 01:15:08 | |
| If we had a level of Service C criteria, then we'd be building our roads even wider. What might have been a three lane Rd. might | 01:15:15 | |
| now be A5 Lane Rd. because we need more capacity and throughput at the intersection to reach level of Service C. | 01:15:20 | |
| So D is a threshold that is commensurate with what a lot of the communities do as far as maintenance. And so it's it's a good | 01:15:27 | |
| balance between the two. | 01:15:30 | |
| So level of service indeed. | 01:15:35 | |
| We've colored that a 3D and green because that's acceptable. E and yellow because they're starting to get outside of that region | 01:15:37 | |
| if it is bad. | 01:15:41 | |
| And we try and mitigate Europe. | 01:15:45 | |
| I'll use an example real quick if you're on State Street in Orem and you're trying to make a left turn. | 01:15:47 | |
| It's graded typically by a stopwatch, or the stopwatch for how much many cars are on that movement. | 01:15:52 | |
| But when we when we look at it. | 01:15:59 | |
| A traffic signal around about or an always stop. It's a factor of all of the movements coming in and what is all of their | 01:16:01 | |
| collective delay divided by all of the traffic. | 01:16:06 | |
| And so you can degrade that level of service pretty quick on an unsignalized with A2 way stop, you're looking at the worst | 01:16:11 | |
| approach. So if you're an arm on State Street, you're the worst approach because you've just gone to McDonald's, you're pulling | 01:16:16 | |
| out, you're trying to make a left turn across State Street. | 01:16:21 | |
| And I don't know. I use McDonald's. I don't even go there. | 01:16:27 | |
| If you're trying to pull out, you're stuck there and all the cars are coming through and there's no gaps in the traffic stream. | 01:16:30 | |
| You've got to find a gap in both traffic streams. Let's say you're southbound and you've got east West traffic that's heavy. | 01:16:35 | |
| You've got to find the gap in the eastbound and the westbound traffic stream that coincided at the same time so you can make your | 01:16:39 | |
| left turn. | 01:16:43 | |
| Unless you're going to pull into the the chicken wing, OK? | 01:16:48 | |
| The two way left turn lane. | 01:16:52 | |
| And that that's called a two stage gap and people do that. | 01:16:55 | |
| But it takes a long time that you're sitting there waiting. If you started a stopwatch and you waited more than 50 seconds, you | 01:16:59 | |
| have just hit failure. | 01:17:02 | |
| I've done that many times. There are intersections like that, or driveways that you cannot get a good level of service. You're | 01:17:07 | |
| never going to put a signal at a driveway, right? | 01:17:10 | |
| It doesn't have enough traffic to warrant that, according to the MUTCD that we spoke about. So Ryan, what you're saying it stays | 01:17:15 | |
| dirty is not like the ideal location that you would point to. | 01:17:19 | |
| If you're wanting to cross or just sit there for a while and watch. | 01:17:26 | |
| I know if you're wanting to watch traffic. | 01:17:32 | |
| Anyway, that that level of service can be great pretty quick, and so that's how it's major. But you can't always work your way out | 01:17:35 | |
| of mitigation. You can't mitigate your way out of four levels of service sometimes. | 01:17:40 | |
| Is safety incorporated into the A through F or is it merely? | 01:17:47 | |
| Like moving traffic is that? | 01:17:52 | |
| What that's a metric for? That's a great question. So it's easy to move things if you don't care about safety. | 01:17:55 | |
| That's a great question. They use what they call measures of effectiveness, Moes. | 01:18:02 | |
| And the MO ease for a civilized intersection are different than they are for a two way stop. | 01:18:07 | |
| And so you start looking at things. If you've got a high crash rate, we look at it from a different skill. You've got the level of | 01:18:13 | |
| service skill. But when we're doing things for the dot, we always come back and we look at the crash data. | 01:18:17 | |
| And we'll see. Is this a high crash location? You know what causes that crash? Is it a rear end crash? Or is it a the worst of the | 01:18:22 | |
| T-bone crashes and you all know that? | 01:18:27 | |
| High speed impact where somebody's trying to train out from a side street. And you all know you sit there for let's say you've | 01:18:32 | |
| been there for 50 seconds, you've already failed, you've got cars piling up behind you. All of a sudden somebody honks behind you | 01:18:38 | |
| and you're going, Oh my gosh, I got to get out of here and we turn right and we get out of the way right. | 01:18:43 | |
| Into the next person to pull up and wait to make their left turn. | 01:18:49 | |
| We get impatient and the people behind us get impatient the more that they get impatient. Pretty soon we're accepting a smaller | 01:18:52 | |
| gap than we would normally accept to try and get out from the side street so it becomes unsafe, and that's when the crashes occur. | 01:18:58 | |
| Let's see and let's do Little Caesars on a Friday night at 7:00 PM and people trying to turn left out of there. So if you can | 01:21:19 | |
| finish the loop and get these to it as well, we're at an F level. But yeah, also kind of feedback on what Morgan saying | 01:21:26 | |
| specifically on the site type approvals and. | 01:21:33 | |
| The traffic impact study where we have the developers when they're proposing a new wireless development project and having | 01:21:40 | |
| developers do the traffic impact starting as part of their project, they hired professional like Orion Hills here to go through | 01:21:47 | |
| it. And then what I would do is pretty much have the developers self identify items that would have to be addressed. So by the | 01:21:53 | |
| time it comes to Planning Commission, City Council to the city, those developers have already included those improvements around | 01:22:00 | |
| their site to address those points. | 01:22:06 | |
| Thank you. | 01:22:14 | |
| Sorry, I'll try and go fast. I know it's nice getting long. | 01:22:16 | |
| I will zip through these slides. You tell me if you want to stop on any of them, but. | 01:22:19 | |
| Just very quickly, when we look at tis scenarios, we look at existing conditions five years out and usually 20 years out depending | 01:22:23 | |
| on the size of the project and that way you get that that long term view, a short term view and kind of an immediate. | 01:22:29 | |
| Question. | 01:22:36 | |
| Tis, this is just a different threshold that that we've seen. You can see that if it's a smaller Tis at Level 3 going horizontally | 01:22:38 | |
| between 100 and 500 trips on a daily basis, then we would do the current year plus five years out. If it gets any bigger than that | 01:22:43 | |
| then we go to a 20 year plus horizon. | 01:22:49 | |
| Not that you need to know much about this, but we talked about stochastic. There's also deterministic models that are There's | 01:22:57 | |
| still. | 01:23:00 | |
| Good models to look at, but they're not the best form. | 01:23:03 | |
| Really should be simulating anything you're looking at. That's my opinion and. | 01:23:07 | |
| I know there's other traffic engineers that will say that that's overkill. It's like. | 01:23:12 | |
| If you're headed up to Park City and you go up north on I-15 and you turn off onto I-80 to go E, there's a short little segment | 01:23:52 | |
| where people are trying to crossover and go off the State St. As you come around on that ramp and you're trying to go straight on | 01:23:57 | |
| to I-80 up to Park City, a little bit of a weave area. So we put out a Bluetooth receiver up there and we measure the traffic, how | 01:24:03 | |
| much was weaving so that we could look at how to fix the interchange. | 01:24:08 | |
| And so we do use data like that, but we don't use it on these studies because it's cost prohibitive at this point. But as soon as | 01:24:14 | |
| it becomes cost compatible, we'll definitely be doing that. | 01:24:18 | |
| Mitigation measures I didn't come through either. | 01:24:25 | |
| Sorry, I'm just gonna leave it here for a second on mitigations. There's all kinds of mitigations that you can look at. Forms of | 01:24:28 | |
| control. I think I talked about already going from two way to four way to roundabout to a traffic signal. It might be adding the | 01:24:33 | |
| right turn pocket, a left turn pocket, deceleration lanes. | 01:24:38 | |
| Changing the signal timing it could be very simple. | 01:24:43 | |
| So those are the types of mitigations that we're looking for and then we're looking for how traffic moves through a site. | 01:24:46 | |
| To continue on when we when we breakdown those mitigation measures, typically they're broken down into background conditions and | 01:24:52 | |
| plus project conditions. | 01:24:56 | |
| One example that I would give is if we had a background condition, let's say as traffic engineers, we run the analysis and we | 01:25:01 | |
| identify there's a problem at one of EU dot signals. | 01:25:05 | |
| We would provide that to the city. The city would talk with you. Not to say, you know, you may want to look at this. It's been | 01:25:10 | |
| identified. There's a problem here. | 01:25:14 | |
| So that would be one way to to read those traffic impact studies. | 01:25:48 | |
| Make it back up to this one. | 01:25:54 | |
| I won't spend a lot of time going through this, but there are different ways that you look at right and left turn pockets. | 01:25:57 | |
| And this is typically the way we look at them as we look at roads that are 40 mph or less and we use criteria such as 25 and 50 | 01:26:03 | |
| vehicles per hour making those turns and then we'll put in turn pockets accordingly if they're needed. | 01:26:09 | |
| We talked about the regional plans already that we review. We talked about MAG and reviewing their long range plan. We talked | 01:26:16 | |
| about U Dots long range plans. | 01:26:20 | |
| In what they have. | 01:26:24 | |
| If you're reviewing this as a planning commissioner, you want to just do a quick check. | 01:26:26 | |
| We talked about the data collecting on a normal condition. If it's a school, obviously they're going to have different time | 01:26:30 | |
| periods and you want to assess that in different time of day. Maybe the morning coincides with the morning traffic going to work, | 01:26:35 | |
| but the afternoon way off. | 01:26:39 | |
| If you go at 5:00, there's nobody at the school. You're not gonna get a lot of traffic. | 01:26:44 | |
| Trip generation, just making sure that it's accurate, They're using a good data source or they've done out and collected data | 01:26:50 | |
| locally that can be utilized. | 01:26:53 | |
| Really, traffic engineers are known as being pessimists, and I don't like that. | 01:26:58 | |
| That I don't even know what to call it. | 01:27:06 | |
| Pseudonym. | 01:27:08 | |
| But because we're always looking at a worst case scenario, we're saying what if, you know, on the worst time of the day, because | 01:27:09 | |
| we go out and we say at the peak of the day, it's gonna be horrible. You know, it's like a mushroom cloud. During the Olympics, | 01:27:14 | |
| when we were getting the Olympic planning, there was an article in the newspaper in the the graphic artist had drawn a picture of | 01:27:19 | |
| a mushroom cloud saying it's gonna be really bad when the Olympics are here. | 01:27:24 | |
| Because the traffic engineer stood up and said don't drive, don't go to work those days, work from home. | 01:27:30 | |
| And so it looked really bad with the mushroom cloud. And everybody thought, this is horrible, we can't, we can't drive. And then | 01:27:36 | |
| you drove on the streets and they were, they were so nice during the Olympics, a lot of people were scared and they stayed at | 01:27:39 | |
| home. | 01:27:42 | |
| Traffic was good during the Olympics. | 01:27:46 | |
| Let's see. Sorry, I keep getting off on the wrong screen here. | 01:27:51 | |
| Just some of the manuals that we use, the MUTCD that we spoke about, the Asheville Green Book. | 01:27:55 | |
| The ITE Trip Generation Manual. | 01:28:01 | |
| Parking generation, manual transportation impact analysis and site development and a highly capacity manual. | 01:28:05 | |
| The Highway Capacity Manual is about 12 inches of. | 01:28:10 | |
| Pages in a book series of three books. It's pretty ugly. | 01:28:14 | |
| It's full of a lot of math and. | 01:28:18 | |
| Want to read? | 01:28:20 | |
| It'll put you right to sleep. | 01:28:23 | |
| Some of the examples and this is the last part of it I promise, but looking at the Vineyard Town Center we use that that mixed-use | 01:28:27 | |
| the MXD. | 01:28:31 | |
| With the transit oriented development Tod, so the whole site is not toy, the whole site is not MXD. | 01:28:35 | |
| But there's elements of MXD in the entire site. That Tod is really the concentrated 5 acre area near the transit station. | 01:28:42 | |
| Looking at trips and parking, there were a lot of reductions that we were able to make. Again because of that mixed-use site, the | 01:28:50 | |
| walkability of the site, the small blocks, and taking that into example, you've got a really good project coming that'll be really | 01:28:56 | |
| nice. Will there be traffic? Yes, absolutely. Will it seem like it's a nightmare? Sometimes, Probably. | 01:29:01 | |
| But for the most part, day in and day out, it's going to be a wonderful project. | 01:29:08 | |
| The point, the point of not the redeveloping the prison site. We worked on that for about 6 months. | 01:29:13 | |
| And we did the same thing. We used the mixed-use development and looking at that site they have a BRT running through the site. | 01:29:18 | |
| Huge huge project. | 01:29:21 | |
| We looked at bicycle pedestrian connections. The UT is going to bring a bus rapid transit system through the site. They're going | 01:29:26 | |
| to come down from the eBay site in Draper, if you guys know where that is. | 01:29:31 | |
| They'll come down and through weave into the site and then they're actually going to jump up on the hillside and they'll go over | 01:29:36 | |
| I-15 on their own little bypass overpass and they'll come back onto the Frontage Rd. system and they'll be coming, dropping back | 01:29:42 | |
| down into Lehigh on that east side. So that's where the BRT route is going to go. | 01:29:47 | |
| We use the larger travel demand model to estimate the traffic volumes and just a great example. | 01:29:55 | |
| Orem 800 S. | 01:30:01 | |
| This one's kind of looking more at turn pockets. I won't. I won't bore you with that one. | 01:30:03 | |
| Very quickly skip this one too down in Hurricane looking at at turn bucket. | 01:30:08 | |
| This is kind of the same thing out in Toyota. Just looking at the pure volume of southbound, right, turns the 128 because it was | 01:30:12 | |
| above the 50 we've recommended putting in a pocket. What that does is it gets the slower right turning vehicles out of the way, so | 01:30:19 | |
| the through vehicles don't get slowed down by them. So it increases capacity. Does it increase speed probably. | 01:30:26 | |
| So there's a balance. Sometimes you want the friction, sometimes you don't. | 01:30:34 | |
| And so as planning commissioners, you can think about that. | 01:30:37 | |
| If you're trying to slow down a little, you don't always have to have the right turn pockets put in, but right turn pockets are | 01:30:41 | |
| also a safety feature. | 01:30:44 | |
| Because the speed differential is the worst problem. | 01:30:47 | |
| When somebody's slowing down to make a turn, if somebody behind them doesn't realize they're slowing down and they hit them from | 01:30:50 | |
| behind. | 01:30:52 | |
| That can be a pretty high speed collision when they're on their brakes and the person behind them is full speed. Ryan, that's a | 01:30:55 | |
| that's a good kind of a quick discussion on that but like with the right hand turn pockets I. | 01:31:03 | |
| Crossings and distance is a huge component of that. How do you analyze that and and does like like you have a gradient system for | 01:31:42 | |
| for traffic with intersections like in level service ABCD is there something that you analyze as some sort of a metric or like a | 01:31:49 | |
| measured system. I think you said the MOMOE but like I'm looking at like the the pedestrian environment or like the the bicycle | 01:31:55 | |
| around is there a way to to grade those And you know I don't know if you want to just kind of respond to those two questions in | 01:32:01 | |
| one but. | 01:32:08 | |
| It's a great question. So we're still using level of service as a major, but there's times where you may say we want level of | 01:32:14 | |
| service in this downtown core area, we don't want level of service B, we don't want traffic flying down the road. We want traffic | 01:32:19 | |
| going slow. We want the congestion. You want somebody looking out the windshield, you want them seeing what's out on the side of | 01:32:24 | |
| the road. | 01:32:28 | |
| And so there are some communities that we've worked in that they've actually said we'll accept and lower level of service Park | 01:32:33 | |
| City, Main St. | 01:32:36 | |
| That does not function at level of service be. | 01:32:40 | |
| Or D. | 01:32:43 | |
| Yeah, it's by design, and that's by design. | 01:32:46 | |
| In doing mixed-use projects and Jeff you know this that sometimes we come in and we say we want a level of service E. | 01:32:48 | |
| But a lot of times municipalities have in their code we've got level of service D criteria. We can't change that. | 01:32:55 | |
| And so you, you have to balance out what you're trying to do. Are you trying to move people and keep pedestrians safe? | 01:33:00 | |
| By minimizing the pedestrian crossing distance and putting in the Bulldogs. | 01:33:06 | |
| And if you take out the right turn pocket and you degrade from D to B to E, is that acceptable? And if that is for the community, | 01:33:09 | |
| then that's an OK place to go. | 01:33:13 | |
| Yeah, I think that's that's that's why it's good that we're having this conversation so that as a community we can be. | 01:33:19 | |
| We know, you know what decisions are making, but. But. | 01:33:25 | |
| Probably. Might not be move the cars through as fast as possible in certain places. Or sometimes there there there's a trade off | 01:33:28 | |
| and there's a trade off. Yeah, yeah, right. Like Holdaway Rd. for example Rd. | 01:33:35 | |
| You know, it's funny, when I when I came out with that was Mayor Gammon one time when when Mayor Gammon was married, I met with | 01:33:48 | |
| him out on his tractor. He was out plowing the field and I went to his house and his wife said he's he's out there. I think I can | 01:33:55 | |
| see the tractor inside. Went trucking all the way out there. Rode up the plan set on his desk, on his tractor. That was his desk. | 01:34:01 | |
| We talked on his tractor. I just stood up on the wheel and we talked about traffic calming. | 01:34:08 | |
| And it was traffic calming on. | 01:34:11 | |
| On your road and we talked about speed humps and what could be done and you know various different forms of traffic calming and so | 01:34:14 | |
| I I know Vineyard quite well. | 01:34:18 | |
| And I know what you're dealing with. | 01:34:23 | |
| Traffic coming. | 01:34:27 | |
| Yeah, there are some forms that are really good and there's some that are not so good. | 01:34:29 | |
| And so it's a measure of trying to slow the traffic down, but the good thing that you have on hold the road now is that you've got | 01:34:33 | |
| alternative routes. | 01:34:36 | |
| And that's huge, that that's nice because now you can start giving it a real thorough look and seeing what can be done. | 01:34:41 | |
| There's horizontal natures and there's vertical measures, and depending on what you're trying to control, if you're trying to move | 01:34:47 | |
| people off of All the Way Rd. you would put one form in. If the snow plow driver hits it, he's going to be really frustrated. | 01:34:53 | |
| Hitting speed humps is frustrating. Getting a bulb out? Frustrating. | 01:35:01 | |
| But if you can, delineate those and mark them and identify where they're at it. | 01:35:05 | |
| Really there there should be a petition to test and look at it and see if it how big of a problem is it? You need to change | 01:35:09 | |
| something. | 01:35:12 | |
| So great question. | 01:35:16 | |
| As I finished out the examples and I think I'm just about done here, apologize. It's like 27 it looks like. | 01:35:19 | |
| Spanish Fork, same thing. Just looking at, they had some very, very extensive queuing and they put in a traffic signal right | 01:35:25 | |
| behind another traffic signal. I know that one. | 01:35:30 | |
| Yeah, You're getting close to Costco. There's a few kind of along that diagonal. Yeah. Yeah. | 01:35:38 | |
| And it's it's just because you've got a a rotated grid pattern, right? And so you've got to look at these side by side and say, do | 01:35:44 | |
| you really want all of those links come in? Should we cut off one of those legs? Should we make people go around and maybe one | 01:35:49 | |
| gets cul-de-sac? There are ways to make it better without making it worse. And they tried to try to fix it and still it's better, | 01:35:54 | |
| but it's still kind of a mess. It's tough. | 01:35:59 | |
| Sometimes you just handed. | 01:36:06 | |
| A bad intersection, if you're gonna figure it out. | 01:36:09 | |
| Pleasant Grove. | 01:36:11 | |
| Let's see, just trying to remember this one. | 01:36:14 | |
| Sold it in 2021. | 01:36:47 | |
| So these improvements really do go in and it's very helpful to get these improvements from the traffic impact studies. | 01:36:49 | |
| Logan, this is just, I only put this in so you could look at it when I was on the Planning Commission. | 01:36:57 | |
| In Lehigh, we had a lot of these come in where you had a lot of older offset intersections that are hard to hard to fix. It's an | 01:37:02 | |
| old grid pattern to a new grid pattern, and you've got cars that are weaving across if you can follow the cursor and they're kind | 01:37:07 | |
| of making that S curve maneuver. | 01:37:12 | |
| Well, there's not enough room for them to turn and then turn on their blinker and turn again. Really, they're just getting the gas | 01:37:17 | |
| and zipping all the way across. | 01:37:20 | |
| And so we we try and minimize some of those. In this case, we recommended a write in write out on one side of the road to try and | 01:37:24 | |
| minimize that maneuver. | 01:37:27 | |
| So just things to think about, if you have any questions, you guys can feel free to call. Jeff, you've got my number. | 01:37:32 | |
| Just just call me if you have any questions. Nassim is a great resource, you should start with nothing. | 01:37:38 | |
| Pick his brain about you know, his thoughts and ideas. He knows this town inside and out, so. | 01:37:44 | |
| Any questions you have? | 01:37:50 | |
| I'm done, I promise. | 01:37:52 | |
| OK. Yeah. And no, I just want to kind of kind of size up right now. They use this information good for when you review site, site | 01:37:55 | |
| applications and master plans and so forth. But all this information is a backbone that goes into developing like a 10 year | 01:38:03 | |
| transportation master plan which also includes facilities, facility projects and all that information can and funnels into what | 01:38:10 | |
| the city needs. | 01:38:18 | |
| Needs in order to develop impact fees and so forth like for the financial side of things as well, so. | 01:38:25 | |
| Yeah, I think taking a lot of this information that the right house present there like you know consultants like consultants like | 01:38:31 | |
| him you know put a lot of work into kind of thing out there. Nitty gritty of things where the city, the Planning Commission, City | 01:38:38 | |
| Council can still make those decisions out in order to establish like the longer range plans which is very important for us to | 01:38:46 | |
| kind of have that direction of which way to which way our growth is is moving. | 01:38:53 | |
| Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. It's been great. Yeah. I mean, Tom and I would make is it oftentimes. | 01:39:02 | |
| There's people have a perception of what traffic is and what the impact is of traffic. And so it's really good to have traffic | 01:39:11 | |
| studies that actually where we look at data and sometimes the data is not necessarily what the perception is. | 01:39:18 | |
| And so. | 01:39:26 | |
| We do have one of the bike on that and then a member of the city. | 01:40:10 | |
| Council as well. | 01:40:13 | |
| There we go. Yeah. The Dave's welcome to, I mean, yeah. | 01:40:16 | |
| Honestly, so OK and then. | 01:40:21 | |
| Well, Zamas, oh, also those are the complete St. training. We said you sent you guys an e-mail. I think I know sometimes talking | 01:40:25 | |
| about the traffic engineering, it's like this is such important stuff because. | 01:40:30 | |
| Ryan is awesome as well. They should have stayed. | 01:40:41 | |
| If you go to, well, please if you can, if you can attend the webinar for the complete stream, that that'll count toward your | 01:40:46 | |
| training, and I think that will help build on the information that you're providing now. | 01:40:52 | |
| Awesome. Thank you, Martin. | 01:40:58 | |
| OK. Any other comments on that? | 01:41:01 | |
| OK. | 01:41:04 | |
| Then let's move on to Commission members reports and ex parte discussions or disclosure. Does anybody have anything they? | 01:41:05 | |
| Any reports? Anything. By the way, Tim, he didn't need to be excused. He had to leave early, so he checked in with anything. | 01:41:14 | |
| So we'll excused him for the rest of the meeting. The only thing I was going to bring up and I'll send out an e-mail to to to the | 01:41:22 | |
| rest of the planning commissioners. But just as a reminder, we've had had a decent amount of turnover on the on the Commission is | 01:41:27 | |
| that. | 01:41:33 | |
| Is about attendance at the meetings, you know is required and and. | 01:41:40 | |
| OK, that's it. Staff reports, do we have anything that you guys want to share with us? | 01:42:22 | |
| Waterfront plan will be coming to to the Planning Commission. We're hoping to have that in April. I think most of you have been | 01:42:28 | |
| falling out of that plan pretty closely And just to I guess clarify again we've been doing over Waterfront plan is not the Island | 01:42:34 | |
| project. Please keep those separate. We don't, we don't because this is a really positive thing. We don't want it to get mixed | 01:42:40 | |
| into any controversy within a project. | 01:42:46 | |
| But that would be coming with Planning Commission and very exciting project hopefully our catalyst project that this the City | 01:42:54 | |
| Council chose for the first grant is the the beach expansion. So we are working on the wetland application now getting that ready | 01:43:01 | |
| to submit and hopefully we'll have construction documents as soon as possible. I know the Army Corps what we've been told is is | 01:43:08 | |
| push back so hopefully that doesn't push back timeline but we do have funds to construct the the beach and. | 01:43:15 | |
| And So what that means is. | 01:43:23 | |
| And and some infrastructure that will help to sustain that through winters with the ice flows and you know all that the crazy | 01:44:03 | |
| stuff that happens on the on utility so. | 01:44:07 | |
| That'll be great. I'm Morgan. Did you want to mention anything about moving buildings? | 01:44:14 | |
| Just so they all know. Yeah. Yeah, so. | 01:44:18 | |
| That will reduce a vehicle trip for me. | 01:44:54 | |
| So it would be a lot more, you know, Maverick runs on foot. It's a lot closer to Maverick. And I've seen, yeah, everyone in the | 01:44:59 | |
| staff, a lot of more food trucks popping up in the empty lot. We'll know why. | 01:45:05 | |
| To speak to that, all public meetings will still be held here unless the agenda states otherwise. OK, so. | 01:45:14 | |
| One other thing is we did go out to the Frontner station, watch them install the last glass and they are still slated open next | 01:45:24 | |
| month. | 01:45:27 | |
| To start having train stop there. | 01:45:32 | |
| I did have a question about that. What are the five posts that are sticking up in the parking lot area? | 01:45:34 | |
| Missy, was that your idea? | 01:45:46 | |
| Yeah, so. | 01:45:48 | |
| Yes, what they'll be doing obstacle courses. Now those are those that were placed on, those are the live posts for the temporary | 01:45:50 | |
| parking lot for ETA parking lot. So the contract would be post mounting the light, not to the top. It's further down around 35 | 01:46:00 | |
| feet high and then cities are cities putting in conduits underground. | 01:46:10 | |
| Depending on how temporary this parking lot is going to be to possibly change that to a more suitable like the host in the future, | 01:46:20 | |
| do we have any idea how temporary the parking lot is going to be? | 01:46:25 | |
| Well, if you're talking about too many in military terms about 5275 years, if you're talking about that, there are plan is talking | 01:46:33 | |
| about the ETA parking lot, there's there until. | 01:46:38 | |
| Until the development puts the first parking deck. | 01:46:46 | |
| And then ETA will be utilized, leasing space from the parking deck from development. | 01:46:49 | |
| So we couldn't find taller poles. Well, we chose to go with the. We just wanted to go a little bit lower for the top golf. Yeah. | 01:46:55 | |
| Apparently the look like. Yeah, yeah. The the the Redwood poles that we ordered there was a supply chain issue. So we're still | 01:47:01 | |
| waiting on us. We'll get them out in half and then yeah. So yeah, obviously they violate the zoning code. We understand that with | 01:47:08 | |
| UTA where our government code has it at 20 feet. | 01:47:14 | |
| We're working with the ETA. They wanted the temporary structure, so we're doing the best we can to accommodate them to get the | 01:47:22 | |
| station open next month. | 01:47:26 | |
| So there's there's a lot of, you know, there's kind of a give and take. If it's longer than, I don't know what the time frame is | 01:47:30 | |
| that the city also has the option of coming in and just installing their own poles. And so that would be at our cost. But | 01:47:37 | |
| depending on how it looks, I mean there's a good chance we we come in there because that's yeah, I don't know very visible. | 01:47:43 | |
| No, we're talking about the train station. I told you I'd be annoying about this. They haven't done anything with trail connection | 01:47:52 | |
| yet. I'm just curious what? Any updates there? I always put all the money on those light bulbs. | 01:47:57 | |
| No. Yeah. So that. | 01:48:04 | |
| The focus, the focus of the developer right now is named Infrastructure and Road for the Main Street and Main Street Vineyard | 01:48:07 | |
| connector area up there they're working on. | 01:48:12 | |
| They're working on the finalizing the, the plans, the actual construction plans for to submit to UTI E dot in order to forward | 01:48:18 | |
| them to review, to provide permits to to build their trail, to build the trail that goes underneath 800th N So when we submit that | 01:48:25 | |
| then we have, we have the inside track hubs. They just were working working closely with ETA on providing them some leeway over | 01:48:33 | |
| there with their needs. | 01:48:40 | |
| That they're going, you know, they'll reciprocate that and. | 01:48:48 | |
| You know closer to the top of us for their review to get that, to get that done. We anticipate, we do not anticipate that to be | 01:48:50 | |
| ready for the front runner station, but we do anticipate that to be completed with this calendar year. OK, that's good. I mean I | 01:48:57 | |
| know you're not setting the project plan, but it seems a little backwards to me to prioritize access for people that for sure have | 01:49:03 | |
| cars versus people that may only be able to walk and bike there because even sidewalks leading to it are my understanding probably | 01:49:10 | |
| not going to be ready. | 01:49:16 | |
| Yeah. So the, yeah, the infrastructure behind the curve is not, is not going to be placed in to to with the with the buildings. | 01:49:23 | |
| Because with the buildings getting close to the curves and everything kind of being so tight that with infrastructure behind being | 01:49:30 | |
| behind the curves, hard to actually build those in the buildings without going back and damaging what you just built or enclosing | 01:49:37 | |
| them off. The prioritization actually is more towards the buses, not not so much the cars or I mean again we recognize the | 01:49:43 | |
| pedestrian part of that. | 01:49:50 | |
| That's a good point though, on the buses, yeah. So that's that's we are #1 prioritization on that. And then but we do recognize | 01:49:57 | |
| pedestrian portion of it is to because we don't want people to have to walk across the construction site. They don't work together | 01:50:03 | |
| as well. So the 800 N is a close second. OK, great. | 01:50:09 | |
| Just real quick, UVU. | 01:50:19 | |
| I didn't submit, but they updated their plans for Vineyard and they're pretty cool. Who knows if they'll actually happen the way | 01:50:23 | |
| they had them, but. | 01:50:27 | |
| They're updated and they're pretty cool looking. We had talked Morgan about. | 01:50:32 | |
| **** around here we talked about one point, inviting you and you to come and just even just for a work session, just a discussion. | 01:50:39 | |
| And obviously we don't necessarily prove what they what they what they do. But it might be if they've got an updated plan, maybe | 01:50:46 | |
| we can make another invitation out to them to come and talk to us about what their plans are. | 01:50:52 | |
| That'll be helpful. | 01:51:00 | |
| OK. | 01:51:02 | |
| But I will send out an invitation and get that going. I think I sent everyone a link to to to the plans. So yeah, but if I want to | 01:51:36 | |
| ask just, you know, you always have to kind of put that and just clarify it. It's not approved. It's a draft. | 01:51:43 | |
| Thank you. Anything else? Anybody. | 01:51:54 | |
| OK, with that then the meeting is adjourned. | 01:51:58 |