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Welcome everybody. It is 6:00 PM, This is the Vineyard Planning Commission meeting. It is November 16th, 2022, and we'll get the 00:00:03
meeting started with Chris giving us an invocation. 00:00:08
Inspirational thought, yeah, I like to, I like to give little thoughts around records, manage management and things like that. 00:00:14
Obviously everything we do dealing with property, very important private property, people own it and they want to make sure it's 00:00:20
protected. So this legislative session, there's an interesting bill coming up. It's right now it's an opening bill, file House 00:00:26
Bill 485 by Representative Moss, and it's supposed to open up the ability or recognize the authority of local municipalities to 00:00:32
use. 00:00:38
It's not open, you can't get your records anytime. So the benefit of the blockchain is you can get your record at any time. So I 00:01:14
think it's important for us to recognize that as the state may be recognizes the authority that we have for it or, or grants that 00:01:20
authority as a subdivision of, of, of state government that there's new ways to, to store records and, and especially property 00:01:26
records. You know, everything we do is actually Ledger based. You know, you have a giant parcel of land and then we approve that 00:01:32
it's now can be subdivided. 00:01:38
It's there and what's there is what's backed. There's no hiding or just missing pieces. It's it's what's there. So it's pretty 00:02:14
cool. Cool. So this session has both 485. I'd recommend going and look at that because I have no doubt and this next decade of 00:02:21
what they're talking about the state level, This is something that will come down and and we'll all have lots of vendors coming in 00:02:28
wanting to sell us the latest technology of how to store your records and and we want to make sure we understand it. So. 00:02:35
Awesome. Thank you. 00:02:42
I'm actually gonna give an opening for as well if that's right. 00:02:44
Dearly Father, we're thankfully we could be here today. Please bless us as we discuss the things that affect the city, that we'll 00:02:48
feel inspired as to what the best direction is, that we will have those residents in mind and those that are trying to make the 00:02:55
city a better place in mind. We're so thankful for all that we have. We say these things and Amen, Jesus Christ, Amen, Amen. 00:03:02
All right, I'm moving on to an open session, so if you have any comments, please come up to the mic state your name. 00:03:11
All right. If we don't have any comments, we'll move on to minutes for review and approval. 00:03:19
Do I have any motion on that? 00:03:25
I was not here for that that particular meeting. 00:03:28
I don't think any of you guys were. Neither was I. 00:03:32
I guess in that case. 00:03:39
Well, we're gonna, we're gonna push off. We're gonna push off the minutes for review and approval and improve them in the next 00:03:41
meeting. We have somebody besides me that wasn't there. 00:03:46
So moving on to business items. So some of these things are being. 00:03:52
4.1 is being moved right or? 00:03:58
Well, they're approving the method. 00:04:02
Didn't do much. No, it's OK. Yeah. For a public hearing then then that's when you need to continue it. That's that gets public 00:04:05
notice, but we just throw it back on this next item. 00:04:12
So yeah, we're going to. 00:04:22
Take 4.1 off of the agenda as well. 00:04:24
So moving on to 4.22023 Planning Commission calendar. 00:04:29
I can help you out with this. 00:04:37
We did review it a few weeks ago, but that we didn't feel there was quite enough members present to make a vote on it, so let me 00:04:39
pull it up. 00:04:43
And. 00:04:49
Sorry, it's in the wrong folder. 00:04:54
Open this word. 00:05:24
Something's changing on the TV. There we go. So yeah, this is the proposed calendar. We did mention at that meeting a few weeks 00:05:30
ago that we might want to look at taking off the July 5th, as it's just the day after July 4th. 00:05:37
Oh, jumping back up to April, we want to just have a discussion on that. That's the first week in April. It could be spring break. 00:05:45
And so we're not sure what your thoughts were on that. And then the other two in question would be the last meeting in November 00:05:51
and the last meeting December. Generally, we only have one meeting in those months. 00:05:57
So. 00:06:03
Just for your thoughts. And we can make a motion to amend this calendar and get it approved for next year. I mean, in general, I 00:06:05
think it makes sense to keep it first and 3rd at 6:00 PM. That's what the public's used to. And then I personally have no problem 00:06:11
keeping them on. And then if we need to pull them off or give a cancellation, maybe the 5th we pull off with the other ones. 00:06:17
I don't think that causes any major issue personally. Yeah, I agree. 00:06:24
Cool, want to make a motion? 00:06:30
Yeah, yeah. If there's no further discussion, then I'll make a motion that we approve the proposed 2023 Planning Commission 00:06:32
calendar with The only exception of taking up the July 5th meeting, and then we'll adjust as needed. Second that. All in favor? 00:06:37
Aye. All right. 00:06:43
Down to 4.3 appointment of new chair and vice chair. 00:06:49
So the way this works is basically you. 00:06:54
Move to. 00:06:59
How do you even say it? 00:07:02
Beach, yeah, if you want, you can, you can run a however you like. So that might be the first thing is to see if there's interest 00:07:34
from those that are in attendance. 00:07:39
I would ask if our current chair and vice chair are. 00:07:44
Able, want, and willing to. 00:07:49
Stay in that capacity or if you've got other thoughts. 00:07:51
I mean, my schedule is still the same as always. 00:07:55
Open, so I'm fine with whatever. I am fine either way as well. Somebody else wants to do it. I think I've only had to do duties 00:07:59
once, so yeah. 00:08:03
Yeah. 00:08:09
OK. Do you have interest in it? 00:08:12
Personally, maybe just vice chair. I nominate you for vice chair then I'm fine with that balance. Like some weeks I have my kids 00:08:16
and some weeks I don't and. 00:08:21
I don't always have backup, so what's your schedule like next year? Same as this year? Yeah, probably pretty close. Also, I'm not 00:08:28
sure if you're in this boat with me as well, but 2023 will be my last year. Both list. 00:08:36
Yep. So have you, have you been in a chair or vice chair? 00:08:44
Yeah. 00:08:50
But I would, I would also support Taylor Sheriff here. That's something that you're wanting to do. I want to do, yeah. 00:08:52
And I would also support the price. Yeah, yeah, you can make that one motion as well. 00:09:00
Yeah, that's fine. OK. 00:09:07
So yeah, I'll make a motion for both at the same time. Yeah, I'll make a motion that. 00:09:09
For 2023, we have Bryce serve as the Planning Commission chair and they serve as the Vice Chair for the Planning Commission. I 00:09:16
second that. All in favor, Aye. All right, thanks. 00:09:23
Thanks for serving as vice chair, it was my pleasure. 00:09:31
All right, moving on to work session 5.1 to Forge. 00:09:36
Jeff and Steve, you guys can come up to the table. 00:09:45
Yeah. 00:09:58
Thank you. 00:10:04
Right. Thanks, Steve. 00:10:07
There we go. 00:10:11
OK. So I'll just do just a quick kind of staff overview. So as you know, the Forge mixed-use special purpose district was adopted 00:10:15
in 2015. 00:10:20
And I actually think it was 2016 early in the year I, I came out, I remember coming on just a couple months after if it was 00:10:26
adopted and it was at the kind of our second mixed-use district or form based code district. So it's one of those codes that 00:10:32
describes some of the architecture that has dimensional standards. 00:10:39
And it gets into kind of a greater level of detail than like the Armu district does in terms of materials, landscaping, 00:10:46
orientation of the buildings. That's a development that proposes being very urban in nature, pulling buildings up to the street to 00:10:52
be very walkable, a large emphasis on the pedestrian environment. 00:10:59
Part of the district there are some kind of some primary features. One of those is it does call for a very large kind of heavy 00:11:07
office component and and and retail. 00:11:12
Allowing 1/3 of the development to be within a square footage for residential. Part of this kind of update to the master plan is 00:11:19
to look at things to become more flexible with the new market conditions and to also add a lot more in terms of the pedestrian 00:11:26
environment and open space. And so that's, I think overall we've worked with the applicant quite a bit We've met with them several 00:11:34
times. I think you're going to really like the the. 00:11:41
The emphasis of open space trail corridors is pretty substantial and I think provides a real net benefit to the city. So we're 00:11:48
kind of in that process of work at the master plan. Wanted to get this in front of you so you could provide comments from a 00:11:56
Planning Commission. They'll come back in a, in a development agreement public hearing. And so you'll have kind of the official 00:12:03
crack at it through the, the, the public hearing process and we'll be able to approve the master plan. 00:12:11
Those elements that that may differ from the code, the development agreement is a tool that allows you to override certain areas 00:12:19
of code in exchange for some of those public benefits that we're talking about in terms of open space. So anyway, wanted to get 00:12:26
this in front of you and allow the applicant to to bring you through their updated master plan. Thanks, Morgan. 00:12:34
OK, I'll take it away. Can you hear me? I'm assuming. OK. 00:12:44
I'm Jeff Goughner. I'm the Director of Development for Dakota Pacific Real Estate. And this is my colleague, Steve Borup. He's 00:12:48
handling a lot of the frontline stuff on this project as we're going to present it to you tonight. Before I get started, 00:12:54
Commissioner Branwell Bramwell. 00:13:00
Representative Moss is my neighbor, so I'll be sure to tell her that she's got a fan on the Vineyard Planning Commission that's 00:13:07
supportive of what she's trying to do. She's a great woman, and she swears every time that she's coming up for election she's not 00:13:14
doing it anymore. And she always finds a way to do it, and she keeps getting collected. She's great. 00:13:20
So anyway, Morgan sort of set the table and I was trying to remember too if it was the end of 2015 or the beginning of 2016, but 00:13:28
it was somewhere in that proximity. 00:13:33
That we got this project, this form based code approved and one thing that was interesting at the time is that we were. 00:13:39
There, there there's like the, the mixed-use district is about 250 acres. It was a big mixed-use district and that's where a lot 00:13:50
of those apartment buildings that are the South of Interconnector were built during that time. And so we came in wanting to do a 00:13:56
mixed-use project, but the interesting thing was there was a moratorium on housing so. 00:14:03
They were basically saying, well, you can't do housing anymore, choose project. Well then we don't really have a mixed-use 00:14:10
project. And so we negotiated back and forth and as Morgan said that the agreement that was finally. 00:14:16
Agreed upon was that for every one square foot of housing, we would build 2 square feet of commercial office, etcetera. And so 00:14:24
that was our agreement. 00:14:30
So that's been a number of years ago once we got it approved. 00:14:38
We then had to go to through all the infrastructure design, we had to start doing design for potential buildings and structures. 00:14:42
And so that really took basically 2 full years to get all the infrastructure installed and put in and, and at that point we were 00:14:50
ready to try and market it for different uses and, but even then it was a difficult time because the cost. 00:14:58
The cost of construction for office building was such that our rents. 00:15:07
Were significantly higher than what would be. 00:15:13
Achievable in Utah County. So we were probably 4 or $5 more per foot and so it became difficult for us to try and figure out how 00:15:18
do we. 00:15:22
Bring the cost down or what do we do and and at one point we hired a broker to and you may all you probably can't miss a sign 00:15:27
Brandon Hugo, who's all over Utah County and on every building that you drive by pretty much and he was he's been really helpful 00:15:34
and he could he brought some potential users to us, but it never worked because we needed the time to actually design the building 00:15:41
construct it through all the. 00:15:49
Get all the contracts signed for the construction cost and everything else. 00:15:56
So it's just been delayed and one of the things, so the office market during that time was difficult for us to really accommodate 00:16:01
because of the rental cost. But the multifamily market was still thriving and working. But our agreement was that we at this if we 00:16:09
were building multi family at the same time, we had to be building the commensurate office related to it. 00:16:17
And so that's sort of been. 00:16:26
Something that's made it difficult to get our project started honestly and. 00:16:31
So we're, we've, as Morgan mentioned, we've had meetings with he and his staff and a meeting or two with Mayor Fulmer and they 00:16:37
kind of tried to give us some direction on how it might work and how we could make this work. 00:16:43
Are and Steve will talk about it more further, but our multi family will be different. It's going to be higher end than what is 00:16:51
existing now, so it's going to be unique. When we did the form based code, the idea was that we wanted this to be a dance as as 00:16:57
Morgan mentioned, a dance pedestrian friendly. 00:17:03
Comfortable environment and really an urban environment. We wanted it to be more urban and more rural or you know, more suburban. 00:17:09
And so that was really our intent from the start and we felt over and then COVID didn't help anything obviously either with what 00:17:17
was happening with cost, going through the roof for construction and other things. 00:17:25
But we felt all along if we could just get something going on the site. 00:17:34
And that it would allow the people that drive by it every day to see, well, something's going on, this is going to be real, 00:17:39
something's going to happen here. That that would open the door or the floodgates to let us get going and get things happening. So 00:17:44
anyway, do you want to go to this slide? 00:17:49
So just go back to the zoning excerpt from from what we got approved. The forge mixed-use district is intended to encourage a 00:17:56
mixture of commercial office and residential uses within an urban neighborhood. Development in the forest mixed-use district is 00:18:03
intended to provide a pedestrian oriented, safe and attractive streetscape and a controlled and compatible setting for residential 00:18:10
and commercial development. The standards are intended to achieve established objectives for urban and. 00:18:18
Design pedestrian amenities and land use regulation. And then we had the next clause in 4.08 point 3 residential intensity. This 00:18:25
is where it laid out that the quantity of residential uses approved or constructed shall never exceed 1/2 of the quantity of non 00:18:32
residential uses approved or constructed as measured in total floor area square feet. So that's been the clause that's really kind 00:18:38
of made. 00:18:44
Our. 00:18:51
Our challenge to try and get something going that's made it difficult, I'll just add. 00:18:53
This purpose withheld on to. 00:19:01
And we still believe in that purpose and we've everything that we're gonna propose today, we can still meet that purpose. And 00:19:04
they're not trying to change the intent, but just change a little bit to the market conditions we'll get more into. So yeah. And 00:19:11
so COVID obviously impacted and you've all seen what that's done in office and how people are now remote or partially remote. And 00:19:18
so that that then raised this question of what is office space going to look like when the pandemic is over? 00:19:25
Are people going to stay working remotely for the most part? Are they going to build bigger office buildings so they have social 00:19:33
distancing within their within their office spaces so their people can come to work and feel more safe? There are a lot of 00:19:39
unknowns on what that will look like. And so it's really hard for us to really determine what that is until we get past the 00:19:46
pandemic and start seeing what development looks like on the office side. 00:19:53
So. 00:20:01
The as was mentioned earlier, part of our challenges on the office space have just been the construction crop toss growth that 00:20:03
we've experienced since the pandemic started. 00:20:09
Making a dense urban project means that rather than having surface parking, we're looking at structured parking. Structured 00:20:16
parking is expensive, and that basically adds. 00:20:22
75 to $90.00 per square foot. 00:20:29
To the office investment for the parking and it. And so it's the same thing. This in turn requires 5 to $6 more per foot in annual 00:20:32
rent versus a surface parking lot building. And it's really it's almost impossible for us to meet that right now with with where 00:20:39
we stand. So we'll talk more about the overall plan. I guess what I'll say is one of the things that Mayor Fulmer asked we 00:20:46
originally. 00:20:53
Looked at what we call just phase one, which included a multi family apartment building, a modest sized office building and a 00:21:01
hotel. And Mayor Fulmer said, I want you to look at it in whole. I want to see you lay out the whole project of what you intend to 00:21:08
do it for the full build out. And so that's what we went back to the drawing board and put together and Steve will be showing that 00:21:14
to you. 00:21:20
Now as we go forward, I'm happy to answer any questions if you want, or we could just have Steve continue. 00:21:27
I've got a couple of questions and some comments I suppose. So one of the things that no viable market interest to date because 00:21:36
we're not Lehigh basically I. 00:21:42
Can you maybe speak to how Pleasant Grove and London have continued to see office growth in their areas and why that wouldn't be 00:21:49
potential here? Yeah, I, I think it's potential here. And as I mentioned, Brandon, people have drummed up some users. It's, it's 00:21:57
really just a need for something to get started, which I think will make it viable. 00:22:04
We, you know, Lehigh has obviously attracted a lot of with Silicon Slopes and everything else that's a hot spot for people to go. 00:22:14
But we think ours can be just that hot, too, once we get something started. And we're just, you know, a few exits down the freeway 00:22:23
from Lehigh and our access is much easier and much easier to get on and off the freeway and than it ever was in Lehigh. And so we 00:22:30
do certainly have advantages. 00:22:36
The structured parking is a piece of that as well, right? I mean some of the suburban office, I think some of it's got some 00:22:45
structured parking in there. That's structured parking requirement. Like I said, it's a big investment. Now we're paying $28,000 00:22:49
apartment stall instead of you know a few $1000 of parking stall, which really drives cost, changes the market environment and so 00:22:54
it kind of takes. 00:22:58
I think maybe the comment probably one of the bigger concerns I have is we, we, there's an area of the city that was just rezoned 00:23:34
for residential and there was some concern about, well that doesn't necessarily fit with what was in the general plan. And my 00:23:42
biggest concern with mixed-use is we have a mixed-use zone and we have mixed-use nowhere. 00:23:51
We have a bunch of residential and then we have some commercial there. There is literally no mixed-use. 00:24:00
Area in our in our city and I just think we need to be careful when we go from you know 2015 no housing to 2018 limited housing to 00:24:06
2022 majority housing. You can see how people would be concerned about that or how that would go contrary to the general plan. And 00:24:14
I get the market conditions and I, I appreciate you laying that out I just think that that's that's a tough one because. 00:24:22
It just changes, you know, if it's, if it's a more, if it just becomes an extension of apartment row. 00:24:31
That that's fine. I mean, I have nothing against people being able to live here. I love that people could come and it's probably 00:24:39
great for the existing businesses. I just think it changes some of the intent and the vision of the city. And I know that things 00:24:44
change with with the market, but I also want to make sure that. 00:24:49
Vineyard had a great chance to be unique and still has a great chance to be unique. 00:24:55
But I fear we're kind of just becoming the. 00:25:01
Blah, Utah County sprawl indistinguishable from anywhere else. Now I've seen some of the plans and it's not what I've seen 00:25:04
everywhere else. So I like, I have some hope there, but that that's my fear and I just wanted to get that out there is that it's 00:25:11
just like, am I just doing track home apartment stuff in Springville or am I in American Fork or am I in Vineyard? Like what? 00:25:18
What's unique about it? And I think that's something that we really need to try to preserve if at all possible here in Vineyard. 00:25:24
Can I just want to do that? I completely agree with you. I mean with the the RMU district, I mean one of the major issues with 00:25:32
that district as well. 00:25:35
Was that there was number real standards in it. It said like mixed-use village, you know, we're going to have a great village, but 00:25:40
then it allows for standalone residential with no like requirements other than the cap and the residential units. And and so then 00:25:46
what happened is you had the the folks that did just multifamily come in and bought the majority of the district and that that's 00:25:52
all they they built. Well, one kind of benefit of the the forge that it does have the form based code. And so it does elevate the 00:25:57
overall design. 00:26:03
Additionally, the. 00:26:10
The development agreement tool is, is a great tool to ensure you get mixed-use. And so that that's something too that I would 00:26:12
encourage the Commission to think about is if there are things that you really want to see, you want to ensure you can build that 00:26:17
into the, into the development agreement as well. So from like an urban design standpoint, if you want, and we will be proposing 00:26:23
to you, we'll be showing you what we're proposing to develop. 00:26:29
Yeah. And that's those are great comments and great questions. And you know when I look back and I don't think I'm wrong, but I 00:26:35
could be Morgan, but. 00:26:39
That RMU district did call for if there were, there had to be a mix of uses and one of them had to be at least 30% of the project 00:26:45
and that was never adhered when they built all those apartments down there, there was nothing that was mixed, but it was it was in 00:26:52
the code. And that's why when I came, you know saying well, wait, we're trying to we're actually trying to do it mixed-use project 00:26:59
and yet there's a moratorium and we can't do it and. 00:27:06
So. 00:27:13
It's just interesting how things were viewed differently or whatever it was, but. 00:27:14
Steve's right though. I think we're going to show you some things that hopefully will be compelling. So a couple of my comments to 00:27:21
add to that. As far as commercial growth, has Office Space been the only commercial growth that you guys have gone after or what? 00:27:28
Because I know obviously office space took a big hit during COVID, but it seems like the development just South of you has had a 00:27:35
lot of success with commercial space in their area. I'm just curious. 00:27:40
Well, yeah, we we have been. 00:27:47
Well, we're going to be a little bit different too, because we want to have our retail be local, not big national restaurant 00:27:50
chains that you can see on any corner. So when when we do get in a position where we can build a building that has retail on the 00:27:57
main floor or it's an independent building, you know, we're looking at doing a food hall perhaps in one building. We want it to be 00:28:03
more. 00:28:10
Locally centric than national. 00:28:17
And so, you know, hopefully that sort of answers your question, but if we were looking for larger box retail, we were looking for 00:28:20
drive-throughs and things of that nature, I think we could probably market that kind of commercial. The code doesn't really allow 00:28:27
that for us in this right now, right? It's parking again, it's everything right up to the right up to the street parking garage 00:28:34
and it's urban streetscape. It's not that kind of environment with adhered to that vision. 00:28:40
But if we were to switch to the same kind of development that our neighborhoods to the South are doing. 00:28:48
Clearly, there's a market for it. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:54
And then kind of my other, really my biggest issue with the whole thing, I love how it looks and stuff and you guys are going to 00:28:57
get into it and I'm excited to hear about it all, but it's going from. 00:29:02
Two square feet of commercial and one square foot of residential to going to something that's way the opposite direction. We're 00:29:08
not even going to one square foot of commercial and two square feet of residential. We're possibly going one square foot of 00:29:15
commercial and 20 square feet of residential. So completely in the opposite direction. That's that's going to be my biggest hang 00:29:22
up with the whole thing is how big of an adjustment we're going from. 00:29:28
The city. 00:29:37
As you've seen the rest of the city, we have a ton of residential, a ton especially on Mill Road, and we're looking for commercial 00:29:38
and areas like this, areas just South of this I. 00:29:45
We're looking, we want commercial and that's kind of how it was agreed. So that's just kind of where I'm going to be coming from 00:29:52
with all this is I have a hard time. 00:29:56
Making that big of a change with something like this. 00:30:02
I hear you obviously anticipated that comment. I will certainly address it as I think some of the imagery and stuff that I've got 00:30:06
will. 00:30:09
Will explain some of the logic and thinking that we had our events. 00:30:13
I'll just say I went to BYU 20 years ago and I remember that. 00:30:19
I'm still plant had been announced it was going away and I was wondering what it was going to be like. And so it's interesting now 00:30:24
to be a part of what is this going to be like. And I've spent a lot of time studying Vineyard and we've been touring apartments. 00:30:31
We've been touring your land. I've spent countless hours now on maps and studying and trying to understand what Vineyard is. And 00:30:38
just a passion and driver for me is that we integrate into your community well. 00:30:44
As a developer, we understand. We come in and. 00:30:52
I have real heartache when people come in with too much self-interest and not, you know, gather the community and make sure it 00:30:57
works. And so hopefully with with the staff will will agree like we want to listen, we want to make this collaborative and and we 00:31:03
want to make it a win win for both. So so we're here with that objective. These objectives are what we kind of played out with 00:31:08
with Morgan and the mayor early on. Like what is really important here, Master. 00:31:14
Master Plan. 00:31:21
Pedestrian mixed-use, right? Again, we really want to hold on to mixed-use and make that work. 00:31:23
Our timeline, you know, we started October 6th talking with staff here we are at the working session. We hope to be able to come 00:31:56
back, you know, early in December for approval based on your feedback and then come to the City Council on the on the 17th. So on 00:32:01
to the next. 00:32:05
Their comment 14. Oh yeah, 14. Sorry. 00:32:11
So when we stepped back and said what makes sense and one of the things that we heard early on from. 00:32:14
Staff and and then the mayor was. 00:32:23
So these are some of the imagery that kind of inspired us to say, you know, there's green, there's some hardscape, there's a 00:32:56
variety of different surfaces. And so these are some of the imagery that this spoke to us and started the thinking around what is 00:33:02
our master plan want to be that we want to propose to you. 00:33:07
So this is the first look of a plan view. I'll just highlight that these buildings are really footprints that are shown for 00:33:15
conceptual purposes. What we're coming to you with in the development agreement is based on is really the space between the 00:33:21
buildings that we're trying to agree on. And what is that space? How much is that space right in exchange for a revised 00:33:27
entitlement of the of the commercial just knowing the market conditions. 00:33:32
And so. 00:33:39
You know, this 8 acres of programmed open space will show you, you know, I think that's, I think the current code might require 00:33:41
I'll have to go back and look at that slide. But three to three to five acres in that, in that range of open space, we've 00:33:46
increased it. 00:33:51
We've had this idea that we could maybe take, you know, block off Calderon St. Which. 00:33:58
I'm just going to make it so you can see my mouse. 00:34:05
All right, put some blocks on each of these and be able to take this event space, all this space, even these East West parks and 00:34:08
create really kind of an event venue, right. And that was one of the one of the original thoughts. 00:34:16
We want to be able to draw pedestrians in from the South and and so we put this pedestrian pathway that kind of comes up through 00:34:24
from the theater that can walk through the forge and invite you into this come for dining experience or whatever else is going to 00:34:29
going to happen there. 00:34:33
And so, yeah, that's, that is the big picture on this highlight that there is this block that sits behind the theater. It's called 00:34:40
block H on the in the in the code lot 10 in the flat and it's not shown here. I think it's kind of got master time. We're trying 00:34:46
to figure out how it fits into this greater plan. It's quite detached IHC on this piece of land right here that's in brown. We 00:34:53
don't own it, we don't control it. And and this lot sits down here kind of behind the theater. So we're trying to figure out. 00:35:00
How that will integrate right? Just because it does feel a little bit detached from a from a continuity perspective, but. 00:35:07
Going on to the next slide and just imagine too talking about kind of making the connection from the South and N that's something 00:35:14
too that the mayor thought was really important was to make sure that like the yard and the megaplex wasn't just like its own pod 00:35:20
and then you built like another. But like she wanted to see better integration between the whole development. So it was more of a 00:35:26
unified design in that whole commercial district as opposed to 1 development and then another development. 00:35:32
We see that pedestrian connectivity important, right? We'll provide dining. We're going to provide certain experiential retail. We 00:35:40
won't be able to be able to park in one place and walk up to the Forge. 00:35:45
So we talked about the space between the buildings. These are kind of the designated areas that we're putting up the development 00:35:51
agreement saying we will provide this 8 acres of highly programmed open space made-up of. 00:35:57
Parks linear parks on both sides. This large pedestrian shared street that would go through. 00:36:04
And that internal ally that again draws people from the South up with a, with a large, you know, 2.2 acre central Plaza that sits 00:36:11
right in the middle. 00:36:14
For events for park like experience. So I'll pause there any. 00:36:19
Thoughts. Just from a plan view perspective as you look at this, any questions about what we're, what we're proposing, the 00:36:25
development agreement will assure a certain amount of quality and a certain amount of features within each of these dashed areas, 00:36:30
which again is really the essence of the development agreement. 00:36:35
I have a question on Mill Rd. accessibility, excuse me, the Vineyard connector accessibility in Geneva Rd. are those like right 00:36:41
in, right out? 00:36:44
Yeah, the top and then over on. So here we've assumed this would be a ride out only, OK. 00:36:49
And what was the other location over there on Geneva Rd. 00:36:55
We're assuming this will end up being a write out as well because it's so close. You're not going to allow us to do much else. I 00:36:58
think that's appropriate. This intersection down here at 650, I think. 00:37:03
You know there's gonna be 1 to be left turntling on that but. 00:37:08
We. 00:37:13
Fire out and around as needed. 00:37:45
Got it. 00:37:52
Is this plan to be rentals or this is? I would say that's not fully decided. I mean, certainly apartments as a rental will be a 00:37:55
major component of it. 00:37:59
You're looking at without the sold off rentals or your company actually owning as an apartment complex to some extent, right? But 00:38:04
I think condos could be interesting down down the road and based on market conditions as well sometime to be considered. 00:38:10
Next two slides are just some elevations that. 00:38:25
Were put together you can see the orientation against the master plan on the top left corner if I was standing in that Plaza 00:38:29
looking you know Jeff talked about potentially a food hall this is an area we would love to put a food hall be able to open up 00:38:36
doors bring a music event right there and put a Patty up above and you know have that residential in the background so. 00:38:43
Gives you a feel for what it might be like on the on the street if you were part of their interest in seating. That water there is 00:38:51
just kind of representing some kind of a feature. We anticipate art, public art. Maybe it's some kind of a water feature, but 00:38:56
we're certainly convenient to do something of interest within that Plaza. 00:39:02
The next elevation is if I'm standing in what we're calling the shared pedestrian St. 00:39:11
Now looking West. 00:39:19
You know, maybe after the left there's a bakery there. Again, we've got residential. Maybe as we look into that, maybe there's 00:39:22
some Stoops and some right real integration with this, with that, with that street for those residential units, maybe that ends up 00:39:27
being commercial on the right as well. We've considered that, but getting commercial on on the ground floor. 00:39:33
But this interesting lighting trees. 00:39:39
Non monolithic Gray paving, right, some kind of interest through pavers or cut lines is kind of the quality that we're we're 00:39:43
anticipating bringing plantings, landscaping, benches, all of those, those types of features that you're seeing here. 00:39:49
Next if we. 00:40:00
What is like 10? 00:40:03
This is. 00:40:06
Shown to give a feeling for the mass that would be there based on what we're asking for. Again, the vertical structures that 00:40:08
you're seeing are representative only. Those would be dealt with on a site plan by site plan basis. And I can tell you some of the 00:40:13
uses that we're considering. 00:40:18
Within some of the commercial space we would like in our original proposal was that this was the Hotel 125 Key hotel. 00:40:23
All right, this was an office building. 00:40:31
We would like a food hall sitting here, maybe some dining experience right here along the the central Plaza and the Central Park 00:40:34
flank with some office on either corner. Again, trying to create a a strong presence that you're coming into the. 00:40:40
Into Vineyard. So those are some of the first thoughts when I look at that. I think, you know, it's really interesting if you're 00:40:48
talking mixed-use. 00:40:52
You know, if there's, I think this picture here depicts 1100 apartment units, about 5-6 hundred thousand square feet of office and 00:40:56
another 100,000 plus of of of retail. If this was the massing that was actually built out. If I live in one of these apartments 00:41:03
and I work right here and I can eat right here, one of the things we're really working to try to attract is a grocery that would 00:41:10
sit on the ground floor here. You know, now I can shop here for food. There'll be some other retail. 00:41:17
I can come and I can entertain myself here, and if we can be wise about connecting a pedestrian way up to the Utah lake, I can get 00:41:25
nature and I can get right a real experience. I don't have to leave this place for weeks if I don't want to. 00:41:31
And so to me from that perspective, it's really balanced on a residential. If you've got 1100 units and you got about 2000 00:41:39
occupants, we're also employing about 2000 and 2500 people here between the office and the retail, which you'll see in the TIF 00:41:47
application that we've we've made. To me it feels balanced in terms of work live, 15 minute city kind of a concept. 00:41:55
If I'm looking at the next view. 00:42:08
Which? 00:42:15
Here I my mind always goes to. 00:42:16
What this is going to look like in the holiday season, right? We got the Christmas trees, we got the property owners association 00:42:21
or the city sponsoring some events. We got hot chocolate and we got Santa Claus kids lined up in line at the at the center Plaza, 00:42:27
right. Again, event based really interesting a destination place that people want to come. That's our vision. It's a vineyard 00:42:33
scale, a city Creek or. 00:42:39
You know, some of these larger mixed-use developments is is the way that we see it and want to be able to execute it so. 00:42:46
We talked about this being a different kind of housing. If anybody's familiar with the Exton there at the University Place Mall, 00:42:54
like right, we see it at at that kind of a scale, right, really mixed-use, really integrated in with with all the retail around it 00:43:00
and a quality that's a little bit above. 00:43:06
Maybe some of the other that you've seen in Vineyard to date. 00:43:14
So that's the kind of the imagery and the vision. I'll pause there and we'll kind of get into some of the specifics of what we're 00:43:19
asking for in order to execute to this vision. 00:43:23
So these renderings, these are showing parking structures. 00:43:30
OK, these are. 00:43:35
There's a little bit of surface parking you'll see kind of a long 650 N. 00:43:37
That again, just put there with the vision of a grocery store. With a grocery store, we feel like some surface parking. 00:43:42
Is is going to be important and necessary just to shopping carts grades, right? It's going to be one story grocery store. It's not 00:43:49
going to be two-story grocery store. So so having some amount of at grade parking, I think is important for that. I personally 00:43:55
think the world's worst grocery store could come in here and be very successful. 00:44:01
It's hard to hard to imagine a grocery store not succeeding in Vineyard like a pick and save, right? You guys remember those? I 00:44:09
don't know what that is. 00:44:13
But it has milk and eggs. It will probably do just fine, food and stuff. 00:44:18
Yeah, they'll have great storefront right across from that Plaza. It'll be it'll be a fantastic site. Is there any way and the 00:44:26
Commission you guys can ask questions to I'm just kind of curious, but on the on the North East corner, if you could go back to 00:44:32
like the plan view? 00:44:38
Doing structured there with some sort of. 00:45:16
Like outer layer of either retail or or condo units I would say. So the the, the NE lot you have like the parking lot facing both 00:45:21
of those streets, there was a way to enclose that a little bit more. 00:45:29
Oh, sorry, you can't tell me my NE yeah, they're right there, right there. Is that a parking garage? Is that that's a parking 00:45:39
garage. OK, so maybe like something on the ground floor that's that's not a parking garage. That's either retail or like I did the 00:45:45
University Mall. Like that's one thing that's really cool how they do their residential is they use it to to kind of veneer the, 00:45:51
the yeah, the the parking structures and it looks really nice. 00:45:57
Yeah, yeah. That's what the extent did there and I think that's interesting and the forward current code. 00:46:04
You know it can't just be a boring parking garage facade. The code already requires it to be commercial or screened in some 00:46:11
interesting way. So whether there's structures there or not, it's going to be screened and look like structure. 00:46:17
Affordable housing as part of this rental units. 00:46:27
You know, the topics come up, we've talked quite a bit about it. 00:46:31
And. 00:46:36
You know when we look across Vineyard and we look at what right, when you talk affordable housing, usually it's compared to 00:46:40
against an AMI, right, The average median income. 00:46:44
And we did kind of a quick study of what is, am I in Utah County and how does the vineyard stack up against that and. 00:46:48
If you look at the Concorde, the mill, the vine. 00:46:57
And what's your other large one? 00:47:01
No point an hour, 1500 units, every one of them 70 to 80% AMI. You have a lot of kind of what from a developers perspective is 00:47:04
affordable housing. I'm not, I'm not closing the door, but I also know the economics and I think it would be interesting to take 00:47:11
those economics and invest them into, you know, this kind of experiential thing and let this be market rate. 00:47:18
And, and let that play out knowing that you have an abundance of affordable housing. If that doesn't feel right to you, I'm not 00:47:26
closing the door on that discussion, but I, I do wonder if that isn't the right answer for this development, knowing it's going to 00:47:31
be different. Steve, have you guys looked at possibly doing like I, I know there's like tax credits, there's different things on 00:47:36
programs out there. 00:47:41
Yeah, and there's there's a huge interest in doing a project for like first response police, firefighters, EMT, first responders, 00:48:18
teachers doing some kind of maybe smaller. 00:48:23
Designation that's appropriate for maybe a specific city you'd like first responders. I think that would be absolutely awesome, 00:48:29
right? Be able to provide a place to be able to live like this for for a specific need as opposed to, you know, generic 15 or 20% 00:48:35
affordable. That will change the character of the development. It really will the economic even with the life tech credits, which 00:48:40
I think you're talking about. 00:48:45
It's it's a different game and it's a challenging game and there's a reason affordable housing, you know, it ends up ends up being 00:48:51
what it is. Oftentimes it's it's not this one bedroom, 1 bath, 700 square feet is starting at 1231 per month. I'm not I'm not sure 00:48:57
that. 00:49:04
Yeah, it's affordable housing. We can show you the AMI again. I'm based on a lot of. 00:49:11
Interest in at least analyzing it, I think would be worth it. Kevin, I think we hear you. I think the question is, is and we'll 00:49:46
get into it more like what is the character of this and what do we want it to be and just understanding there's also market 00:49:51
impacts to that, right and so. 00:49:57
The parking garages make it a little bit more challenging, so I hear it. The desire will certainly do more studying. Sounds like 00:50:04
that's something everybody will want to hear more about. 00:50:09
Real quick, do we know how many units are in the all the rest of that area Divine the male point, concord and alloy combined? Do 00:50:15
we know how many units? 00:50:22
Too many, too many waters and edges. I I think we're at like there's 2100. Is that, is that where we're at? I counted 1500 without 00:50:29
the edge. If you take it, yeah, the edge is like another 500. OK. 00:50:38
Yeah, I recall when everything was about 20. 00:50:48
Yeah. 00:50:52
I think that's about about what we landed on. Yeah, we do have those numbers we compose for you if you if you like them. OK. Yeah, 00:50:53
yeah. I'm just curious because this is saying and this the maximum residential building units is 1500 for this. So we're talking 00:50:58
about doubling the residential units for this area. 00:51:04
With. 00:51:10
You can keep you on. Again, I'm going to bring this up again and again on how I'm not comfortable with this. But yeah, Steve, 00:51:12
question for you, Brian Amaya, Steve Liner. Are these units sold individually or the HOA maintained or maintained by a property 00:51:17
manager? 00:51:23
Once you said these units, can you like the building is what you're saying, right? Yeah, each building. 00:51:30
How it's going to develop, I don't know that we can predict exactly the. I mean typically development agreement will give rights 00:51:36
to be able to assign. 00:51:40
You know, be able to sell parcels and and because of the development agreement will go with with the land. Those same requirements 00:51:47
will be will flow to the next buyer. 00:51:51
You know, our Dakota Pacific wants to build an own real estate and like I say as much as their departments in here, I think 00:51:57
there's an interest for us to own. There is a property management will be a property owners association for the whole complex. 00:52:03
These these streets today are private. 00:52:08
Within the forge and so all these common areas want to be maintained. So that would be done through a property owners association, 00:52:14
you know, which all owners would pay into to to deal with the maintenance of the whole complex. 00:52:19
Did answer the question. 00:52:27
I guess I was wondering about the residential it because we're talking about residential, right? OK, OK. Apartments. 00:52:30
Apartments, basically some mix of condos in the future. Again, I don't know. I think it'll depend on how that all shakes out. Like 00:52:37
some of those smaller retail buildings, they could have some condos above them. 00:52:42
So I don't know, Again, it's kind of we're going to focus on the space between knowing that this will develop out, you know, for 00:52:47
eight years and a lot of things are going to, you know, the market's going to respond, but the development agreement will create 00:52:53
an anchor of what the space needs is ultimately going to look like. 00:52:59
Thank you, Steve. 00:53:07
So that's the big picture vision. 00:53:11
In order to get here. 00:53:16
Like we've talked about. 00:53:19
Residential intensity being one of the challenges. 00:53:21
So if you're talking about commercial and you're thinking about we want more commercial, knowing that office is going to be a 00:53:24
challenge that takes out a lot of the multi story commercial opportunities. There's not a lot of commercials, there's medical 00:53:30
office use and some others that can provide potentially multi story. 00:53:36
Commercial, right? Look at what's happening to the South of us. It's single story commercial. 00:53:45
And here we have parking garages and minimum heights. Right now the minimum height within our district is 20 feet and so. 00:53:50
We said maybe what's we can attract commercial, but we can't necessarily attract multi story commercial very easily. And so that's 00:53:59
where this idea came in like what if we took the ground floor area and said the ground floor area needs to be at least 50% 00:54:04
commercial. 00:54:09
And so we're saying 50% of that area on the ground floor would be commercial. 00:54:16
All right, we can bring a grocery store in and we can put nothing else above it. 00:54:22
All right. And we can get some square footage there if we're looking at square footage, but I don't know if the city ultimately 00:54:27
benefits. Maybe there's density concerns, we can talk about that if there is, I don't know if the city benefits a whole lot from 00:54:32
having a grocery store without anything above it versus something having above it. So that's what this idea of a ground floor 00:54:36
requirement came in and then just a maximum residential units to figure out, you know, let us figure out over time how to fit in 00:54:41
the residential units. 00:54:46
And so knowing that the commercial is going to follow some kind of sense of place and building some momentum, we know multifamily, 00:54:52
we know that that markets there. We start with multifamily and then we're saying after we build that initial multifamily building, 00:54:58
don't let any more than 20% of that ground floor area. 00:55:04
Or at least 20% has to be commercial at anyone point in time. So bind us to kind of bringing the commercial in over time and 00:55:12
ultimately needs to be 50%. So we would obviously have to continually show you our plan of how we're going to meet the 50% as we 00:55:16
develop. 00:55:21
But that was the proposal on residential intensity. 00:55:26
And I'll have some more imagery that will talk about kind of how much commercial there is. 00:55:30
But Commissioner Brady, that was that was the thinking like multi story commercials challenging what are we going to bring to 00:55:36
really bring a million square feet of of commercial and because otherwise we'll be pushed to kind of 1-2 story kind of stuff. 00:55:42
I guess for me personally I'd rather see 1-2 store kind of stuff than see a bunch of potential units I. 00:55:50
If multi story commercial is not possible, I still like to see commercial rather than residential for this area just because as 00:55:58
great as residential is, it doesn't bring a lot for the thousands of residential units that are already there. And the expectation 00:56:06
from the city when we made the agreement in the 1st place was. 00:56:15
A large commercial. 00:56:25
Development. So if we go one to two-story commercial. 00:56:27
I think you'll get about the same amount of commercial as we're proposing, right? 00:56:32
Because mostly our. 00:56:37
I don't, I don't know you'll get that much of a difference because now you're just flattening the whole the whole program to some 00:56:42
extent, but. 00:56:45
I do understand. Is it just we're going to have taller buildings, is it than just number of residents or you really think you're 00:56:50
going to get less commercial with this new program? I mean compared to what we had, absolutely we're going to get less commercial 00:56:56
than than what was originally planned on a 2 to one scale. 00:57:02
And of course, the residentials were we would essentially be doubling, almost doubling the amount of units in that area. That's 00:57:11
double the traffic, that's double the cars, that's double the things that everybody in Vineyard complaints about currently. 00:57:18
So that's kind of hard. I mean, we have the downtown development coming in and they're right next to a transit station. And the 00:57:27
whole point of that area is. 00:57:31
To have a bunch of people that aren't driving cars as often. Umm. 00:57:37
And. 00:57:43
I don't know and. 00:57:45
Still listening to it, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it and. 00:57:46
Seeing if it makes sense for me, but I feel like we're losing the intent of what we had planned for the area personally. 00:57:50
Any other input from so I, I think what one like point of providing some sub direction is, you know, if you want to see some, some 00:57:59
data. And so you, you, you brought up like, like traffic and those kind of things. And I, I think that for a Planning Commission 00:58:06
that that's those, those are the kind of things that the applicant should, should be looking for is, you know, what built out 00:58:13
conditions, what's the traffic? What is the impact on the infrastructure? How are city engineer analyze it? 00:58:20
I think that those are the kind of things that that should really inform the the Planning Commission. And then if you have like 00:58:28
specific things about the residential that just from a land use perspective that that that provide you heartburn, you know, like 00:58:33
kind of talking about those. If there's like the impacts, if it's like infrastructure, having them analyze like water, sewer, you 00:58:38
know, like those those kind of things. I think that would be really helpful for when they come back through the process to to be 00:58:43
able to address. 00:58:48
Some of those concerns if it's from an impact standpoint. 00:58:54
Our traffic impact study will be. 00:58:58
Will be done by the end of the month. The Vineyard connected Geneva intersection, it's a tough one. It's already at a low level of 00:59:00
service, right. And so that's where I think a lot of the focus will be Mill Road and. 00:59:05
You know, Cauldron building so far from all indications look OK, it's really a vineyard connector and Geneva as well as 650 in 00:59:12
Geneva and those those are going to be the challenging ones are going to need some upgrades in order to enable this development. 00:59:19
They have up to 1500 housing units, he said. Before, between 2000 and 2100, employees that would work on the actual commercial 00:59:29
side, on the bottom floors. Yeah, So again, we have. 00:59:35
We've got a framework for what the vertical could look like, right? And that's 4 to 500,000 square feet of office. 00:59:42
170,000 a retail, we got some hotels and so based on that, that's how many people would be working in that area. So you have how 00:59:48
many residents here. The next slide you have parking, it mentions parking structures. What's the requirement? I guess that would 00:59:54
be in the planner in the area of parking spots per structure. 01:00:00
Yeah. So each your current code defines that 34000 for office. I think a market demands a little bit higher than that. The 01:00:07
residential is 1 1/2 units per dwelling unit. So, so, so how how would we and when we see what's happened in all of our high 01:00:14
residential areas even coming in here, I got a tax while here people complaining about the parking at Lakeshore. So so how would 01:00:21
how would this not create the same problem again? 01:00:28
Of college students or every room being rented out individually and we have two or three cars per unit. 01:00:36
And then parking just overflowing, Yeah. 01:00:42
Our there's the market conditions and what the code requires today. I think market conditions would want to be a little higher 01:00:46
than the one point $5 per unit. 01:00:50
But you have this great advantage of shared parking. 01:00:56
Office vacates every night and now we have parking garages that are sitting empty and so mixed-use really does solve a lot of the 01:01:00
challenges with parking and as much as right. 01:01:05
You've got office vacating that also helps with all the rest the evening commercial and restaurants, right? Because we have, I 01:01:11
mean, take Tucker Row because what do they have? Two parking spots per unit, plus they have overflow spots and they still have 01:01:17
issues and they're way above that. That 1.25 I don't think we're even close to because you're, I think you're going to end up with 01:01:23
a lot of college students individually renting there. 01:01:29
You know it's we're the fools if we approve any more housing projects. 01:01:36
Without requiring parking permit programs that are and I think and a lot of, a lot of extra spots. I mean, what's there so far? We 01:01:41
say an HOA is going to manage it or I mean, if you only permit 2 spots per unit, then that makes it very clear to them. 01:01:50
And everyone's doing, but they still run out to everyone. It's single individuals coming into every room. And they're there to 01:02:00
make a profit. So that either the city changes code to enforce it, or we can't keep approving these housing projects at the 01:02:05
second. There's going to be no problem. And every time there's a problem. 01:02:10
I mean, we look at Edgewater where I live and it's. 01:02:16
And say at least half college students, and some of those units are three to four bedrooms. And again, each bedroom is rented out, 01:02:21
so they're like 4 cars per unit. 01:02:27
And that right now they're being allowed to park in that dirt lot that's 2 seconds from being developed. 01:02:34
And yeah, and they got, we have a permitting program with the businesses across the street that's like it's like 100 bucks a month 01:02:41
to be able to park there. Like this sucks, but I. 01:02:48
Yeah. So when we say that we're looking for affordable housing, but we're saying is it would be really great if people could 01:02:56
actually afford to live in these places without having to rent out their sublet rooms that cause all of these parking impact 01:03:03
issues. Does that make sense? 01:03:10
Yeah. And right now the people who work in Vineyard can't afford to live in Vineyard. Our city employees, everybody who's gonna 01:03:17
work in that commercial space, they, they probably won't be able to afford to live in those units. So, well, one thing with the 01:03:23
parking, because it's something we've, we've worked on for the last like 6 1/2 years since I've been here. I mean, it's always an 01:03:29
issue. We're a college town. It's, you know, it's, it's an issue that is going to persist. 01:03:36
But what we found is when, from an organizational standpoint, when an apartment complex is built. 01:03:43
Point and yeah, and alloy like all of those those four. I know that Edgewater is is has been working on, on, on theirs. The 01:04:18
problem with the Edgewater development, quite frankly is when it was built, it was parcel moth and everything was sold to 01:04:26
individual investors and that that made it really hard and the HOA and believe it or not, like the the like the parking. 01:04:35
I know, I know we get complaints, but it's actually gotten a lot, a lot better there than than it was. I mean, it was like 01:04:44
absolute nightmare. 01:04:47
Kind of oversight from that perspective, the more that the, the parking gets curtailed. And so I, I would say with this 01:05:21
development, that's something that you could also build into the development agreement, ensuring that there is a like a parking 01:05:27
management plan that's put in place and enforced. And another thing that that the Planning Commission to look at. And I thought 01:05:33
this was really creative when we did this with the downtown, if you remember. 01:05:39
The downtown code what it requires is when 500 units are built. 01:05:46
That a parking consultant have to then look at it and analyze will site conditions of that development and then the parking ratios 01:05:51
are are are altered depending on the actual parking need of that development. And and So what what it what it means is that the 01:05:58
management of the parking it puts a a a really big emphasis and responsibility on the management of the parking because if if 01:06:06
they're allowing four to five students per unit they're going to have a huge. 01:06:13
Arkin issue. And what's gonna happen is the parking ratios go up. So the next 500 units, we're gonna require a lot more parking. 01:06:21
And so we actually built that into the code. So as the project builds out, there's parking studies, I think we have four or five 01:06:27
different thresholds as it goes up they have to do another parking study and then that changes the parking requirements and so. 01:06:34
That they have real active enforcement and you can require that through the development agreement. Is the downtown is that 1.25 as 01:07:11
well per unit? It depends on the and it also depends on the sub district, the very right on the train station that has a lower 01:07:18
parking requirement than the the kind of the areas more on the periphery. 01:07:25
The what we submitted for the. 01:07:33
Development agreement basically says we need to bring the parking management plan to you. 01:07:37
With each vertical structure. 01:07:43
So I've got another comment and this one is a very +1. One thing I love about this is your desire to want to get moving on 01:07:46
something right away. And I think that that's. 01:07:52
I think most of us would like to see that rather than just, you know, dirt sitting there. 01:07:59
However, I wonder if like, does anything need to change in the code for that? Or could we make variations in the current code to 01:08:05
say, yeah, if you want to get started on the residential portion now, maybe we make allowances for that. I'm just thinking of 01:08:11
creative ways that we can get moving now. 01:08:17
Versus going from no residential to 1500 units because it's a big leap and you know, we've, we've got current code and approvals 01:08:25
right now. 01:08:31
And I love the desire to get moving on on something right now. And I'd like to see us to find a way to get that the undercurrent, 01:08:37
it basically says right now. 01:08:41
We can't build a residential till we need 2 square foot of commercial built first. So there is A and that that's what I'm saying 01:08:49
like what if, what if instead of revamping everything, we put the, you know, the order of what, what's approved so that we can get 01:08:55
moving, moving soon. Anyway, it's just a thought because I, I, I, I really like the energy and the desire to move because I can't 01:09:01
tell you how many times all of us in this room get asked like. 01:09:06
Intense retail experience kind of ensuring that through the master plan. And so I think that that does both that allows kind of 01:09:43
residential out the gate. You can do that in the development agreement and then you can also clarify like designated areas for 01:09:50
ground floor retail. The other, the other thing that I see proposed here is up to three acres or 300 dwelling units, whichever 01:09:56
comes first may be constructed in an initial phase without constructing non residential. 01:10:03
It's not a knock on you by any means, but I read that as 100% likely you will see. 01:10:10
300 dwelling units before any non residential is built and that's fine because I think. 01:10:15
How I read it is like you will certainly get that. My concern is if you zoom out and I know that's not all part of the same 01:10:21
project, but if you take all of Mill Rd. as if it were 11 project and again I know it's not the reason there was a moratorium is 01:10:28
because everyone did just that built that residential 1st and didn't build the non residential. So by the time you came around it 01:10:35
was like hey, the only stuff that's left is non residential. So what would prevent? 01:10:41
You from building 3 acres of residential. 01:10:49
And then maybe selling it off right or, you know, to somebody else. And then it's it's like, well, now you guys can't build 01:10:53
anymore. But then they come back here and say, how about we build some more residents? You know, it's almost like this little 01:10:58
microcosm of the same, same thing we've been doing with three years. Yeah, that's what the development agreement would obviously 01:11:02
transfer with the land, but. 01:11:07
Our desire, of course, is to develop this. 01:11:15
And once we're done with that building would be done, yeah, we can sell it, but the next person won't be able to do anything 01:11:17
either unless they negotiated change my development agreement, which is, which is yeah, which is what's happening here. So. 01:11:23
We just know that will create momentum. We, I will be honest with you, the margins and and the underwriting are tight on that just 01:11:31
because rents and vineyard for you know the kind of structure we're proposing to build. 01:11:38
It doesn't exist, right? Like. 01:11:47
We are building a downtown building and structure in a suburban area and that's always high risk for a developer and so. 01:11:52
We think we can build that and we can get that going. We have some confidence as the may but we also I mean our Phase 1 assumes 01:12:00
50,000 square foot office in a hotel. We are actively pursuing both of those developments as well. We we need to bring the 01:12:05
commercial in order for this whole thing to build out so. 01:12:11
And I was going to say too, if, if there's like a down the line, if there was a request for some sort of like RDA, we've been able 01:12:18
to use that too from a financial perspective that like increment doesn't, doesn't come back until certificate of occupancies for 01:12:24
commercial get get finalized. And so that that's helped us out quite a bit with the, with the, with the yard that pushed a lot of 01:12:29
like the medical office buildings to go vertical fairly quickly and the and the retail and Top golf. So if you notice kind of on 01:12:35
that. 01:12:41
We're able to kind of use like that the the financial incentive to to, to get the commercial in place a little faster. 01:12:47
How many square feet of how many square feet of commercial are you guys anticipating in with your current plans? That's about 600. 01:12:55
And how many square feet of presidential, I'll just put a asterisk on, it's 600 based on the kind of the massing diagram you saw. 01:13:05
I mean those are three story office buildings. If a user wants to come in and take 6678 stories, we have land and capacity to be 01:13:11
able to do that. But I guess that's just what we kind of maybe thought was a realistic based on the market of what could be 01:13:17
absorbed so. 01:13:23
So the commercial office user comes, we've got a place for them. 01:13:35
Right. 01:13:39
I don't think you'll see the absorption much higher than that 600,000 feet like say, unless you know MX wants to build a campus 01:13:42
all of a sudden and then your details. 01:13:47
With that in mind, I like. 01:13:55
The at least 50% non residential and ground floors. 01:13:58
I mean, I of course love to see that increased. 01:14:04
For me to feel more comfortable with the increase of residential density. 01:14:08
I also want to say that I like like the green space. I like that you're echoing what we're doing in our downtown just north. 01:14:14
And. 01:14:24
And I would like, I don't know for going to echo that, maybe consider echoing it. 01:14:27
Further, with how you are developing, does that make sense because that's a lot, a lot more ground floor commercial development? 01:14:35
With the residents above it. 01:14:44
So that's. 01:14:46
I'd like to see a little bit of forget the echo. Let's let's echo, you know, so you like seeing an increase on the the ground 01:14:49
floor retail, you know, above the 50%, right, Because I understand that like the residential makes us affordable for you to do. 01:14:57
And I don't want to inhibit development, so. 01:15:07
The ground floor retail from staff's perspective is, is a really critical thing to creating the vibrancy on the ground floor. And 01:15:12
so that's yeah. So an increase of that me personally. 01:15:17
I since I live so close, I hope I'll be walking up. There's a grocery store. I'll be walking to that grocery store probably weekly 01:15:23
because it's just so convenient. 01:15:27
Instead of driving all the way to Orem. 01:15:33
Just not. Anyway, that's my two cents. I like the green space, I like the concept, and I hope for an increase of the ground floor 01:15:36
commercial. 01:15:41
Appreciate that. 01:15:45
I'll move through a little bit more the open space. I just want to highlight again 8 acres. 01:15:50
That exceeds the three to six acres, right, So. 01:15:56
This is one of the things that we are giving up. 01:15:58
Right. In order to change this residential mix, all right, we're, we're not only giving up the land, but we're also investing 01:16:01
heavily in what that land is. And so that's an important component of I guess the give and take of this whole thing. And consider 01:16:07
how important that is, I guess in in the whole equation for everybody. 01:16:12
$10 million what would be the? 01:16:48
Financial investment I guess with this new request, I mean I would assume it's north of the 10 million. Yeah, we haven't we 01:16:52
haven't really worked that out at at this point. We've kind of had some conversations with that that would probably be a work 01:16:57
session with with the RDA. But one thing I would recommend is like if there is some concern with getting some of the commercial 01:17:03
like I find a case to make recommendations as far as like you know things that you'd like to see be attached to to an RDA 01:17:09
agreement. 01:17:14
But that might be something that. 01:17:21
Just think like to put on your taxpayer hat and if you say, hey taxpayer, we just approved more tax dollars to go to something and 01:17:23
you're getting more residential units and what you get in return is. 01:17:30
Two more acres of programmed open space, that's how a taxpayer that lives down in Sleepy Ridge might view it, right? That may not 01:17:38
be coming up and using this much. So I do think it's important that we have the numbers to understand, like what, what would the 01:17:44
city potentially be giving up from a tax standpoint? 01:17:50
To incentivize something like this versus because we're talking a lot about what will the market bear well if it requires tax 01:17:58
support and tax funding and RDA. 01:18:03
It's not necessarily what the market will bear either. That's being supported by tax dollars, which the RDA exists for that I 01:18:09
understand. And, and you know, economic development is important too. I just want to be really clear about what changed and why. 01:18:15
And I think it's very normal for anybody to say, I, I gave this and I got this. Like we just need to be able to clearly say that 01:18:21
that story and, and justify any decisions one way or another that that we make. 01:18:27
To clarify, the original 10 million was for one parking structure. 01:18:35
That was going to support office, right, Whereas there's also a model that was a proof of the downtown that was basically kind of 01:18:40
an ongoing for parking structure throughout the entire development. So dollars to dollars may be different because this was one 01:18:45
piece of a of a larger development. And you know, what we proposed is something closer to downtown, it's a little more fluid, it's 01:18:51
for the entire development so. 01:18:56
OK. 01:19:03
Residential intensity, we've got a few more slides on it. 01:19:07
Appropriately so. 01:19:10
Again, using kind of this example layout that we've we've put on here, this is for residential and commercial with layout and this 01:19:12
is like a 55% commercial 5560%. Thank you. 01:19:19
5560% commercial on the ground floor. 01:19:28
Again, that building was to put the grocery store we're aiming for. There'd be a little bit of residential in that building on the 01:19:31
ground floor and then residential above it, which. 01:19:36
Assuming we can get satisfied on, you know, some of the infrastructure impacts, we can build a grocery store without residential, 01:19:43
but we can build it above it. Does it cost the city anything or does it really add to the city? 01:19:48
With some of the thinking, again focus on the ground floor, but. 01:19:55
These dashed lines that show along what is Cauldron, it's not labeled, but that East West road was blue dashed lines. That's where 01:20:00
guaranteed commercial. We absolutely required ground floor commercial on both sides of that street. So it's a really active 01:20:05
vibrant. 01:20:10
Commercial St. 01:20:16
And thank you state or one thing on that southwest side and it kind of enclosing that that gap and making sure that we have urban 01:20:20
frontage on both sides. Thanks for having that. 01:20:26
You bet. 01:20:34
The next slide just is a different view of kind of what that commercial would look like just. 01:20:36
Seeing where that would be, again, it's a really active commercial area. 01:20:42
Focused on those other two blocks at the ground floor and really the residential is kind of isolated for that live work you know 01:20:47
I, I can live and I can I can work right there so. 01:20:52
Tried to kind of bundle it so it was really vibrant and active and everybody's got access to the common areas. 01:21:00
Both the commercial and the residential. 01:21:05
Commission #80 when I said there was more on it, on the residential intensity, that's the end of it. So. 01:21:15
I do have a couple of questions about park space and stuff. Something I'd like to see is a majority of your park space is along 01:21:21
the front of the Vineyard Connector, which is. 01:21:27
Good for prettiness, but it doesn't give your residents a lot of options as far as things to do. You're not going to play football 01:21:34
on any of those areas or soccer or anything. 01:21:39
So. 01:21:45
On a map that was let me just go back to the plan view. 01:21:47
Are you referring to this strip here? Yes. So top all of the strips on the road. So that top strips the one on the east and the 01:21:51
one on the West. So it's in in total that's 1234. 01:21:57
5 acres. 5 acres of the 8 acres is that street frontage. 01:22:03
And that seems like for me personally, if I was living there, I'd want more open space that's usable, like a park where you can 01:22:10
play soccer and where you want to take your kids instead of being right next to a busy Rd. Yeah, over here in Geneva. I'll tell 01:22:17
you the thinking. There was just that Geneva Trail is going to come through there. And so if you could widen that, I don't know if 01:22:23
we'll get into all the details, but the thought was put a little bit of a playground. 01:22:29
There is a trail kind of merges into the other, but it was really playing off of the Geneva Trail that would eventually, you know, 01:22:36
link the whole pedestrian stat. Yeah. And I would say staff can't push that one on them. 01:22:41
We because we're going to have the Geneva Rd. trail and if that was why not beautify the, that, you know, the, the Geneva Rd. 01:22:46
corridor cause the worm side is, is kind of nasty. I know that I want to throw too many eggs at them. I know they, they do want to 01:22:52
beautify their, their section at some point. But thought was making instead of just a 10 foot trail, make it a, a trail that's 01:22:58
beautiful to have open space pocket parks on it. That that was kind of the idea there. It it also, I think enhances just that 01:23:04
corner that, that. 01:23:10
Corner. 01:23:16
Internally, I mean, because if you're gonna have a lot of residential, maybe even creating some great residential amenities that 01:23:48
could be publicly accessed as well. Yeah, I mean, if you're adding that many units already, this area, they don't have any parks. 01:23:54
And like, it's one thing to be like, I mean, it's good to have like a Plaza and stuff, but I mean, people live here, they have 01:24:00
families, they have kids and plazas are great, but you don't really want to take your kid to a Plaza. You don't want to play 01:24:06
soccer, football in a Plaza. I think that's something that this area desperately needs is more like open park space, grass and 01:24:12
places to play for kids and stuff. 01:24:19
You would have a better comments on that than I would say. 01:24:26
Right. Yes. 01:24:29
It's like karma. What doesn't it? 01:24:37
The atmosphere because the the. 01:24:43
Enclosed parks are within the building structures. 01:24:46
Yeah, I know all we've got these tiny little baby parks and my kids are. 01:24:54
Over there, 7 to 14. 01:25:00
74714 and. 01:25:04
Yeah, like my 7 year old will go swing on the tiny swing and go down the side but the rest of them like. 01:25:07
It would it would be something we frequent and walk to as a family if there was a an area that was conducive to picnicking, 01:25:14
somewhere to bring our soccer ball. 01:25:19
Something community feel. 01:25:25
But yeah, I like the. 01:25:28
It's kind of a mixed bag because I like the plazas too. So if we could have bolts, that would be really great. One of the visions 01:25:31
for the Plaza was, you know, you'll notice one side green, one sides, you know, papers provide soft scape on one side and provide 01:25:37
kind of more of a hard escape urban fill on the other. So the idea was, you know, that that that green scape was more grass, more 01:25:42
turf, obviously, you know. 01:25:48
We also are conscious of water, but we did think a little bit of turf right there might be appropriate. And just based off of 01:25:54
that, like looking at the map here, that would be like a little more than 1/4 of an acre of grass. I know that's like .6 acres of 01:26:00
well, sorry, maybe not the grass. This whole Plaza, this whole Plaza from. 01:26:07
He has 1.1 acres for that whole central Plaza area. 01:26:15
So. 01:26:20
Additionally, that would be the first park like area and in our area and the rest of us all live a lot further South and 01:26:22
wondering. 01:26:27
If at all possible, we could have. 01:26:34
More of a park like function to this lands a little bit closer to where the other residents live too. 01:26:37
That's a request. You mean putting it down in this area just like? 01:26:46
The extent of what we own is is to hear yeah, yeah, obviously you couldn't go for yourself in that I. 01:26:54
It would get a lot of use if it were. 01:27:02
If residents South of this area could see it and then walk to it, does that make sense? 01:27:08
And that would up our city standard of living on the side of the city. 01:27:16
To see it meaning it's more on what made your street. 01:27:22
To see it like. 01:27:25
They understood it was there in a safe place and they feel like it's not too far to walk. 01:27:31
Yep, uh. 01:27:42
Yeah, that would be nice. 01:27:45
OK. What I'm hearing is. 01:27:52
See if we can aggregate some more green space. 01:27:56
See if you could. 01:27:58
Rearrange some of the green space. It is owned by AHCI. Think you should encourage AIC to do that. I like where you're going with 01:28:01
this crowd. You can lobby IHC and be like remember how you're into health with with native dresses. Yes, I believe that's true. 01:28:10
So I, it seems like kind of more like like a, like a larger more park type thing. So I mean, so the, the kind of the question is, 01:28:23
is where you have some of that periphery stuff on Mill Road and Geneva Rd. 01:28:29
The central shared St. on this map is showing that as part of their open space. 01:29:07
Does that mean there's no parking or anything on this open space on the central central shared St. 01:29:12
Does the roads and stuff like that, does that count as open space or how? 01:29:25
Well, I mean, we're doing like the the development agreement to create that special design. So the idea is to to make it like a 01:29:31
really slow place where you could shut down the road, you could do events, you know, you could do a farmers market. You could have 01:29:38
a lot of sidewalk, sidewalk kind of stuff. It would be more of an urban space where people could walk back and forth. 01:29:45
But I mean, it would be up to the up to the Planning Commission, City Council, if you wanted to, to designate like does that reach 01:29:54
the level of of being incorporated? Slide 20. 01:30:00
Which highlights some of the concept and design around the shirts. I mean, it is definitely just kind of it is definitely way 01:30:09
beyond what what a street would be. And so I mean, we, we love the the, the design, but that that's kind of whether or not that 01:30:15
would trigger drills and pedestrian walkways often have been considered open space and. 01:30:21
Awareness. So that's why it got counted. That is because really, it's a pedestrian. Awkward. 01:30:27
OK, the only the only reason I ask is if that is actually a pedestrian walkway and stuff. I would say why not just run the path? 01:30:32
Through this development instead of out on tests and do more of just like a sidewalk on Geneva on on the Vineyard connector, Yeah 01:30:40
to the road and then yeah, we would like to push it. We just need I think we still need that circulation Rd. for fire access. 01:30:48
Yeah, I don't know. Personally for me that way we gain almost 2 1/2 acres of parks nice inside, which I think would be a big 01:30:56
bonus. And and I think we do want and I know this it goes counterintuitive, but even from a planning side, I think we do want cars 01:31:04
to be able to to drive on it. Because if you did food trucks, you know like like loading and that kind of stuff, it is nice to 01:31:11
have that at that area. So that was kind of plain the dual purpose of like a large. 01:31:18
Urban corridor that that could be accessed with vehicles. So still do that. But you could even like just looking at this plan, I'm 01:31:27
not a designer, but you could like copy paste the connector frontage space and put it right next to the central. 01:31:35
Isn't necessarily developable for us because of EU dot right away. Yeah, well, yeah, that's on the on the east side for sure. 01:31:48
I mean, they still have the track there, the connector as well. I think that's good. 01:31:56
And like the tark is like these brittle the the long skinny parts. It sounds interesting in concept too. So I'm kind of. 01:32:01
Torn on that a little bit. 01:32:12
But you're talking about just on the West side? 01:32:15
Yeah, I just like it. 01:32:21
It looks cool and doable about. 01:32:23
Like is that something? 01:32:26
Sorry, now I can't find the pictures. 01:32:30
That's fine. Yeah, I like the idea and the concept of it feels. 01:32:34
Urban and it would look nice. 01:32:41
But again, we need to also consider usability, so if we can find a balance. 01:32:44
Does that make sense? Yeah, a linear park along the road is really attractive. 01:32:51
But these ability like you talked about for football, it's going to be limited for that. But I imagine it would look somewhat like 01:32:57
in Provo on the Riverside trail up. What is that university? 01:33:04
I think, but like they have this neighborhood and it's a bunch of green space and then there's a trail that goes through it and. 01:33:13
It's yeah, near River Woods. And like, yeah, it's gorgeous and it's used for people on the trail, but nobody uses it for anything 01:33:24
else, and that feels like a real waste of opportunity. 01:33:30
Yeah. Plus you have, I think it would benefit moving park space closer towards the center of this project or even down South 01:33:38
further for those people that are coming that live in this project, that are getting food at the southern project. And then just 01:33:45
an in between place to that'd be nice to have extra places to eat at something that is like attracting the people from down South 01:33:52
up into your area, into your commercial into that. 01:33:59
Not being sufficient, but that was the idea here is to bring people in, let people eat in a great dining in with this open space. 01:34:37
So really create a really like in the evening lit up, you know, an ambience. People want to come up there and be there for sure. 01:34:45
And like my kids can kick their ball around too. That would be extra great. 01:34:52
Yeah. And so. 01:35:01
I'll just move around a little bit here and go to the East Gateway park at Linear Park, which is Slide. 01:35:04
23. 01:35:12
Again, we kind of saw this at least 50 feet wide. Could somebody kick a soccer ball? Absolutely. Are you up against the road? Yes, 01:35:14
there's advantage, disadvantage. We can talk about that. Sounds like we're hearing your feedback, but some kind of natural skate 01:35:20
playground. We thought about even contracting and working with the UVU art department to create like something that's. 01:35:26
Themed with with the forge, right, Something that kids can climb on, but it doesn't look like playground equipment, right? It's 01:35:33
it's rocks. It's something that people can jump on. This kind of I think was envisioned kind of the play park. 01:35:39
And then the other gateway. 01:35:44
How are we doing on time A. 01:36:18
What's the target here? Are we getting done? 01:36:21
Yeah, I mean, I would let the Planning Commission just provide comments. But yeah, I mean, they're, they're not like a set 01:36:24
timeline. It's just kind of up to the Planning Commission. 01:36:30
I'll highlight just a few of the vision of the other plazas if you go back to page 21. 01:36:40
Which is this retail Plaza? 01:36:46
This is that on the corner on Mill Rd. we see one, you know, either really tall, one story or two-story building sitting out here. 01:36:48
And again, this is like a dining people come, there's restaurants sitting here. 01:36:53
And maybe there's fire pits that's shown, but this is a, you know, a food based retail Plaza that that people can come and 01:37:01
experience, make it interesting with again, lighting and the different kinds of paving and, and seating integrated into it. 01:37:08
And then the internal alley on the next page, page 22. 01:37:19
This again feeds from the South make it so you can have exhibits, you can have some little alcoves all in it so that again this 01:37:23
can be really activated in an event that. 01:37:28
Similar to what you see there for larger events that the city or other entities might want to host. So that was that was that was 01:37:35
some division, right? Really make it program, really make it interesting, really make it a pedestrian experience as you walk 01:37:39
through space. 01:37:43
Yeah, probably my last comment I want to make is like if. 01:37:49
Like I actually love the plan and like if we actually got something that looked like this, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, I 01:37:54
don't feel like I've been. 01:37:59
Nothing has exceeded my expectations since I've been on the Planning Commission. 01:38:05
I think that the biggest challenge is the mindset is not the plan. I think the plan is, is is great. And if it were already set 01:38:15
and expected to be, you know, 1500 units coming in, then I would say like this, yeah, this is amazing, Let's do it, let's go for 01:38:22
it. I think the really tough thing is going from. 01:38:28
The journey of. 01:38:35
This is going to be an office park. 01:38:36
To it might be a little bit of residential here to there's going to be 3 to 4000 people living here. I think that's, that's the, 01:38:39
that's the struggle. And if and if we're OK with three to 4000 people living in this area, but I think this is a fantastic plan. 01:38:45
So that that's not where my concern is. My concern is just kind of the journey that we've taken and what that potentially opens up 01:38:51
to the for the city. And if that's what we want to do, because I think we need to just make sure that we are being very 01:38:56
intentional and sticking to. 01:39:02
General plans and consulting with the community and making sure that we're all on the same page as we move forward. So that's a 01:39:08
challenge no matter what. And I think you probably understand that too. And that's why you laid out some of the facts and the 01:39:14
realities about the market. And I get that and I understand it. I think that's going to be the biggest challenge moving forward 01:39:19
though. It's just that mindset shift from what everyone thought this was going to be years ago to what's approved now to what's 01:39:24
being proposed, I think. 01:39:30
What's being proposed is great, it's just different than. 01:39:36
What what's already accepting a lot of people's minds for what this might be. 01:39:40
So yeah, that's my final comment. 01:39:44
So what's the the next step? I do have some other comments. 01:39:49
Timeline is. 01:39:53
So we would work with them on the on the development agreement. 01:39:56
Typically it goes, it goes back and forth between staff and the applicant. And then there'd be a public hearing before the 01:40:01
Planning Commission and then a public hearing with the City Council, the City Council, City Council would make the ultimate 01:40:07
decision. If there is an RDA adjustment to the original application, that would go to the RDA board. So from a timeline 01:40:13
standpoint, I mean, typically it takes a few months to go go through that process. 01:40:18
So I mean, realistically, I mean, I don't know what Steve is thinking, but even if they went as fast as they could, you're 01:40:26
probably looking at like a a January. But I think that December 14th had a conflict, right, Jeff, with your guys's, with your 01:40:30
guys's company party. 01:40:35
Yeah, yeah. So if they're prepared at that point, then it would be it could go as early as December 7th with the Planning 01:40:41
Commission and then December 14th. But most likely this is only to talk about scheduling with the with the City Council has gotten 01:40:48
really heavy on the December 14th day. So I actually might not be a great time to to go before them because because of everything 01:40:54
else that that's on. So most likely. 01:41:01
Yeah, I would say January we we can work out the that, you know those, those dates. But typically there's kind of a back and forth 01:41:09
with staff on the development agreement. 01:41:12
Before it goes to public. 01:41:17
So one of the things I'm worried about is with the development just S they came in and wanted X amount of units and wanted to do 01:41:20
residential in an area. And we essentially said no because what we said in that last meeting was this area filled up with 01:41:28
residential. We've met our cap. We don't need more residential in this area. 01:41:36
And I feel like if we approve something like this, then that goes back to the last people that we dealt with. We turn them down 01:41:44
and then we approve this. I have a hard time. 01:41:50
That was that directly going directly across the street. 01:41:55
Yeah, the one next to Top Golf. Oh, that got approved. It did get approved. Yeah. The the, the development agreement did, Yeah, 01:42:00
yes, yeah, it's 300 units or something. Units got approved there. And then the area just South of that when they wanted to approve 01:42:07
residential there. Yeah. And then even with the 300 units that got put in, it was, well, what are we getting for this? Like we're 01:42:14
putting in 300 units. What's the benefit to the city? 01:42:21
And so looking at this, it's like. 01:42:29
If we're putting in even 300 units like what is what is the benefit to the city versus what we would have already been getting and 01:42:31
so. 01:42:36
That's kind of a hard thing for me. 01:42:43
Yeah, and we did deny the residential request on the other. 01:42:47
You said we approved the 300, the City Council approved it. So yeah, with the other one, it is, it will and it wasn't approved. 01:42:52
It's required if they want to go through it, to do a development agreement. So it's kind of kind of the same process right now. 01:42:59
All all it does is that they would go through this process and if the Planning Commission, City Council didn't want it, they'd be 01:43:05
able to deny it through the development agreement. You could deny the development agreement. It's a legislative request. 01:43:12
Or it would, it would provide the ability to work out like a deal. We need X numbers worth of feet of open space. We need, you 01:43:19
know, a traffic impact analysis like those kind of things could be dealt with through that. 01:43:24
What you may see online or with the market says is probably different than reality of what's here is the people working here. A 01:44:00
lot of them can't live here. Most of our city staff can't afford to live in vineyards. It's very expensive. I can afford to live 01:44:06
here if I wasn't one of the first people to move into the new water's edge and I make it a decent amount of money. There's a lot 01:44:12
of people in that situation. So I'd love to see if we're going to change zoning, allow a big change like this. 01:44:19
You know, what can the developer do to help us meet that goal and and affordable housing. We talked about that for months now. 01:44:26
Of our plan but is there anything we can do even a little bit can can go a long way yeah I think my. 01:44:32
What would help me more is to understand what you mean by affordable. 01:44:40
Right knowing. 01:44:44
But we'd love to have people that actually work here be able to live here. 01:45:16
And that is something that we are hearing kind of vertically throughout the city. So mayor council as well, is that they'd like to 01:45:21
see affordable housing generally in the city. So I, I would, I would just suggest providing an analysis with, with the, the 01:45:27
development agreement, have someone look at it and, and see if, if that there's a potential somewhere in the project for that. 01:45:34
There's a lot of interest in providing some sort of moderate housing for. 01:45:41
You know, for the public safety officials, first responders. 01:45:48
And so yet I I think that would go a long way and it sounds like. 01:45:53
I, I would second exactly that, you know, if it were for those types of individuals working here, providing services here that we 01:45:59
know don't make a lot. And I think there's some dual benefit there of, you know, you're the company providing that. Nobody else is 01:46:05
really bringing that to vineyards right now. And I think it would help with future partnerships, some goodwill both ways. 01:46:12
I hear it. Thank you. 01:46:19
And just one more thing on commercial it says 50% of the ground floor. I would like to see more of a percent like if we go back 01:46:20
some amount of residential then we're going to have X amount of commercial see some kind of something in that regard because you 01:46:27
could build a 20 story building and have 50% of the bottom floor be. 01:46:34
Commercial but. 01:46:41
So if there was more of a. 01:46:42
I don't know what number. 01:46:44
That should be, but I. 01:46:48
It's kind of like we did with the downtown. They're required to have 2,000,000 square feet of or at least 2,000,000 square feet of 01:46:50
commercial, if I remember right, just some kind of number where we can see. 01:46:56
How much commercial is it actually going to go in versus how much residential is gonna go in would be helpful. Yeah, yeah. With 01:47:03
the downtown, the minimum requirement was 500,000 square feet initially. And so they upped it to 1,000,000 square feet. And then 01:47:10
with the the structure parking and the amenities that, that, that they're put in, there was essentially a cap take taken off the 01:47:17
the residential because the idea is we're getting the amenities, we're getting kind of a baseline for, for commercial uses. 01:47:25
And so that was where how we did it with the downtown. But but we were guaranteed kind of a minimum amount, which was, which was 01:47:33
really cool because we knew and you've got to make that translation work from a, an appointment standpoint. We got to have kind of 01:47:38
that minimum threshold. And so that's, that's what they have to have at the very baseline. But we're projecting we're going to get 01:47:44
quite a bit more than that. 01:47:49
One of these buildings going to be shared space studio residential for low income. 01:47:58
That was a joke. 01:48:04
We're not ready for that. 01:48:08
Yeah. 01:48:11
All right, thank you. Yeah, any other comments from you guys or we'll just point out at the end of this at the very end there are 01:48:13
right, we talked about some kind of quality assurance and so we won't go through them but. 01:48:19
The retail Plaza, what does it have to include? The Central Park, what does it have to include so that there's some assurance of 01:48:26
quality and kind of quantity. There's examples of kind of what we're drafting for the development agreement to lock that in. So 01:48:32
you can go through that again above any comments getting back to Morgan or whoever else, whatever that pathway is, but. 01:48:38
Yeah. 01:48:46
I'm looking for a head nods to say yeah, that's the kind of thing that we really want to you know, you're on the right track 01:48:47
walking and those kinds of things or no, we want to go a whole lot more detail definitely any. 01:48:53
Anything that's promised or alluded to, we want to make sure there are teeth to it, right? There's it's enforceable because we 01:48:59
have definitely seen as a growing city that if it's not in there and sometimes even when it is in there, you still don't get what 01:49:04
you. 01:49:09
'Re willing to commit to the quality. Jeff Dockner does not mess around. He should see the the project he built and caught when I 01:49:16
said his top notch. 01:49:20
We can, we can build that. We can build that, lift that into it. And what I said earlier, I stand by like I don't think. 01:49:26
The concept of this is the challenge here. I think the concept is kind of just the journey of what what the planned uses here. 01:49:33
Yeah, I think that's going to be the biggest, biggest struggle. Yeah. And another comment with like with the downtown, obviously 01:49:39
downtown was much bigger than this, but this is a huge project. I would have a hard time being like, here's our first time seeing 01:49:44
it ever today and then approve it in four weeks, like. 01:49:50
Or not even 4 weeks, like 3 weeks. And that that is hard because downtown it was months. 01:49:57
Said. 01:50:05
Yeah. I think we need to spend the time so doing like another work session with the Planning Commission like, well, once you get a 01:50:08
little further along. Yeah, yeah. 01:50:12
OK. Thank you guys. We appreciate your good your time as well. 01:50:19
All right, Commission member reports an expert day. Discussion of disclosure has everything. 01:50:27
I got one quick thing for the bike and pedestrian Commission that I'm on will be reviewing the active transportation plan. So if 01:50:34
all of you should have access to that online, I think we're meeting the first part of January. Yeah, still being determined. Still 01:50:41
being determined. We're meeting sometime, but if you've got recommendations on updates there or one. One thing that I'm passionate 01:50:48
about is making sure that our trail system connects properly. So if there's like problem intersections or when. 01:50:56
Walking around or it's a like, if you're not comfortable letting your 10 year old bike somewhere in the city, We made it that way, 01:51:03
right? We did this from scratch. So speak up, let us know where the issues are and we need to address those types of things and 01:51:08
make sure that we're not. 01:51:13
Making things dangerous by design. Thanks, Anthony. All right, staff, you have anything? 01:51:18
We are hoping to have the active transportation plan final draft very soon. So a process for that we're thinking. 01:51:26
What do we say the dates on there? I'm sorry. I think we were going to try to get that to you for December 7th and then that would 01:51:35
go to City Council probably in January. So that that'll be a good one. Hopefully we can have the. 01:51:42
That'll probably get adopted as like in a companion document to the general plan. So we'll still do a public notice for it. Most 01:51:51
likely. As we do updates to the general plan, we'll start referencing the active transportation plan, but it probably won't be 01:51:57
like embedded in, but it'll be a companion document to it. So we will get that to you as soon as we get it and you can start 01:52:03
making comments hopefully by the end of this week. 01:52:09
So just, you know, look for that and there's yeah, there's a bunch of projects that that we're working on, but that's that's 01:52:16
probably the the next one you're going to see central corridor plan is, is coming along really great. Most likely that's going to 01:52:20
be a January. 01:52:25
Time frame as well hopefully. 01:52:30
January is gonna be. It might be January, February. 01:52:34
There's too many and there's general plan amendments coming in. There's a bunch of stuff. So this is turning into like the bronze 01:52:39
Swanson Day where they scheduled on. 01:52:44
One day I will meet with everyone. Thanks. I don't know if it's the same as anything. 01:52:53
Hello. It's good to see you, Brian, that you're moving and here at the city. 01:53:01
Hope you're feeling better. 01:53:07
Cool, all right, if that is everything, then meeting is earned. 01:53:09
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Welcome everybody. It is 6:00 PM, This is the Vineyard Planning Commission meeting. It is November 16th, 2022, and we'll get the 00:00:03
meeting started with Chris giving us an invocation. 00:00:08
Inspirational thought, yeah, I like to, I like to give little thoughts around records, manage management and things like that. 00:00:14
Obviously everything we do dealing with property, very important private property, people own it and they want to make sure it's 00:00:20
protected. So this legislative session, there's an interesting bill coming up. It's right now it's an opening bill, file House 00:00:26
Bill 485 by Representative Moss, and it's supposed to open up the ability or recognize the authority of local municipalities to 00:00:32
use. 00:00:38
It's not open, you can't get your records anytime. So the benefit of the blockchain is you can get your record at any time. So I 00:01:14
think it's important for us to recognize that as the state may be recognizes the authority that we have for it or, or grants that 00:01:20
authority as a subdivision of, of, of state government that there's new ways to, to store records and, and especially property 00:01:26
records. You know, everything we do is actually Ledger based. You know, you have a giant parcel of land and then we approve that 00:01:32
it's now can be subdivided. 00:01:38
It's there and what's there is what's backed. There's no hiding or just missing pieces. It's it's what's there. So it's pretty 00:02:14
cool. Cool. So this session has both 485. I'd recommend going and look at that because I have no doubt and this next decade of 00:02:21
what they're talking about the state level, This is something that will come down and and we'll all have lots of vendors coming in 00:02:28
wanting to sell us the latest technology of how to store your records and and we want to make sure we understand it. So. 00:02:35
Awesome. Thank you. 00:02:42
I'm actually gonna give an opening for as well if that's right. 00:02:44
Dearly Father, we're thankfully we could be here today. Please bless us as we discuss the things that affect the city, that we'll 00:02:48
feel inspired as to what the best direction is, that we will have those residents in mind and those that are trying to make the 00:02:55
city a better place in mind. We're so thankful for all that we have. We say these things and Amen, Jesus Christ, Amen, Amen. 00:03:02
All right, I'm moving on to an open session, so if you have any comments, please come up to the mic state your name. 00:03:11
All right. If we don't have any comments, we'll move on to minutes for review and approval. 00:03:19
Do I have any motion on that? 00:03:25
I was not here for that that particular meeting. 00:03:28
I don't think any of you guys were. Neither was I. 00:03:32
I guess in that case. 00:03:39
Well, we're gonna, we're gonna push off. We're gonna push off the minutes for review and approval and improve them in the next 00:03:41
meeting. We have somebody besides me that wasn't there. 00:03:46
So moving on to business items. So some of these things are being. 00:03:52
4.1 is being moved right or? 00:03:58
Well, they're approving the method. 00:04:02
Didn't do much. No, it's OK. Yeah. For a public hearing then then that's when you need to continue it. That's that gets public 00:04:05
notice, but we just throw it back on this next item. 00:04:12
So yeah, we're going to. 00:04:22
Take 4.1 off of the agenda as well. 00:04:24
So moving on to 4.22023 Planning Commission calendar. 00:04:29
I can help you out with this. 00:04:37
We did review it a few weeks ago, but that we didn't feel there was quite enough members present to make a vote on it, so let me 00:04:39
pull it up. 00:04:43
And. 00:04:49
Sorry, it's in the wrong folder. 00:04:54
Open this word. 00:05:24
Something's changing on the TV. There we go. So yeah, this is the proposed calendar. We did mention at that meeting a few weeks 00:05:30
ago that we might want to look at taking off the July 5th, as it's just the day after July 4th. 00:05:37
Oh, jumping back up to April, we want to just have a discussion on that. That's the first week in April. It could be spring break. 00:05:45
And so we're not sure what your thoughts were on that. And then the other two in question would be the last meeting in November 00:05:51
and the last meeting December. Generally, we only have one meeting in those months. 00:05:57
So. 00:06:03
Just for your thoughts. And we can make a motion to amend this calendar and get it approved for next year. I mean, in general, I 00:06:05
think it makes sense to keep it first and 3rd at 6:00 PM. That's what the public's used to. And then I personally have no problem 00:06:11
keeping them on. And then if we need to pull them off or give a cancellation, maybe the 5th we pull off with the other ones. 00:06:17
I don't think that causes any major issue personally. Yeah, I agree. 00:06:24
Cool, want to make a motion? 00:06:30
Yeah, yeah. If there's no further discussion, then I'll make a motion that we approve the proposed 2023 Planning Commission 00:06:32
calendar with The only exception of taking up the July 5th meeting, and then we'll adjust as needed. Second that. All in favor? 00:06:37
Aye. All right. 00:06:43
Down to 4.3 appointment of new chair and vice chair. 00:06:49
So the way this works is basically you. 00:06:54
Move to. 00:06:59
How do you even say it? 00:07:02
Beach, yeah, if you want, you can, you can run a however you like. So that might be the first thing is to see if there's interest 00:07:34
from those that are in attendance. 00:07:39
I would ask if our current chair and vice chair are. 00:07:44
Able, want, and willing to. 00:07:49
Stay in that capacity or if you've got other thoughts. 00:07:51
I mean, my schedule is still the same as always. 00:07:55
Open, so I'm fine with whatever. I am fine either way as well. Somebody else wants to do it. I think I've only had to do duties 00:07:59
once, so yeah. 00:08:03
Yeah. 00:08:09
OK. Do you have interest in it? 00:08:12
Personally, maybe just vice chair. I nominate you for vice chair then I'm fine with that balance. Like some weeks I have my kids 00:08:16
and some weeks I don't and. 00:08:21
I don't always have backup, so what's your schedule like next year? Same as this year? Yeah, probably pretty close. Also, I'm not 00:08:28
sure if you're in this boat with me as well, but 2023 will be my last year. Both list. 00:08:36
Yep. So have you, have you been in a chair or vice chair? 00:08:44
Yeah. 00:08:50
But I would, I would also support Taylor Sheriff here. That's something that you're wanting to do. I want to do, yeah. 00:08:52
And I would also support the price. Yeah, yeah, you can make that one motion as well. 00:09:00
Yeah, that's fine. OK. 00:09:07
So yeah, I'll make a motion for both at the same time. Yeah, I'll make a motion that. 00:09:09
For 2023, we have Bryce serve as the Planning Commission chair and they serve as the Vice Chair for the Planning Commission. I 00:09:16
second that. All in favor, Aye. All right, thanks. 00:09:23
Thanks for serving as vice chair, it was my pleasure. 00:09:31
All right, moving on to work session 5.1 to Forge. 00:09:36
Jeff and Steve, you guys can come up to the table. 00:09:45
Yeah. 00:09:58
Thank you. 00:10:04
Right. Thanks, Steve. 00:10:07
There we go. 00:10:11
OK. So I'll just do just a quick kind of staff overview. So as you know, the Forge mixed-use special purpose district was adopted 00:10:15
in 2015. 00:10:20
And I actually think it was 2016 early in the year I, I came out, I remember coming on just a couple months after if it was 00:10:26
adopted and it was at the kind of our second mixed-use district or form based code district. So it's one of those codes that 00:10:32
describes some of the architecture that has dimensional standards. 00:10:39
And it gets into kind of a greater level of detail than like the Armu district does in terms of materials, landscaping, 00:10:46
orientation of the buildings. That's a development that proposes being very urban in nature, pulling buildings up to the street to 00:10:52
be very walkable, a large emphasis on the pedestrian environment. 00:10:59
Part of the district there are some kind of some primary features. One of those is it does call for a very large kind of heavy 00:11:07
office component and and and retail. 00:11:12
Allowing 1/3 of the development to be within a square footage for residential. Part of this kind of update to the master plan is 00:11:19
to look at things to become more flexible with the new market conditions and to also add a lot more in terms of the pedestrian 00:11:26
environment and open space. And so that's, I think overall we've worked with the applicant quite a bit We've met with them several 00:11:34
times. I think you're going to really like the the. 00:11:41
The emphasis of open space trail corridors is pretty substantial and I think provides a real net benefit to the city. So we're 00:11:48
kind of in that process of work at the master plan. Wanted to get this in front of you so you could provide comments from a 00:11:56
Planning Commission. They'll come back in a, in a development agreement public hearing. And so you'll have kind of the official 00:12:03
crack at it through the, the, the public hearing process and we'll be able to approve the master plan. 00:12:11
Those elements that that may differ from the code, the development agreement is a tool that allows you to override certain areas 00:12:19
of code in exchange for some of those public benefits that we're talking about in terms of open space. So anyway, wanted to get 00:12:26
this in front of you and allow the applicant to to bring you through their updated master plan. Thanks, Morgan. 00:12:34
OK, I'll take it away. Can you hear me? I'm assuming. OK. 00:12:44
I'm Jeff Goughner. I'm the Director of Development for Dakota Pacific Real Estate. And this is my colleague, Steve Borup. He's 00:12:48
handling a lot of the frontline stuff on this project as we're going to present it to you tonight. Before I get started, 00:12:54
Commissioner Branwell Bramwell. 00:13:00
Representative Moss is my neighbor, so I'll be sure to tell her that she's got a fan on the Vineyard Planning Commission that's 00:13:07
supportive of what she's trying to do. She's a great woman, and she swears every time that she's coming up for election she's not 00:13:14
doing it anymore. And she always finds a way to do it, and she keeps getting collected. She's great. 00:13:20
So anyway, Morgan sort of set the table and I was trying to remember too if it was the end of 2015 or the beginning of 2016, but 00:13:28
it was somewhere in that proximity. 00:13:33
That we got this project, this form based code approved and one thing that was interesting at the time is that we were. 00:13:39
There, there there's like the, the mixed-use district is about 250 acres. It was a big mixed-use district and that's where a lot 00:13:50
of those apartment buildings that are the South of Interconnector were built during that time. And so we came in wanting to do a 00:13:56
mixed-use project, but the interesting thing was there was a moratorium on housing so. 00:14:03
They were basically saying, well, you can't do housing anymore, choose project. Well then we don't really have a mixed-use 00:14:10
project. And so we negotiated back and forth and as Morgan said that the agreement that was finally. 00:14:16
Agreed upon was that for every one square foot of housing, we would build 2 square feet of commercial office, etcetera. And so 00:14:24
that was our agreement. 00:14:30
So that's been a number of years ago once we got it approved. 00:14:38
We then had to go to through all the infrastructure design, we had to start doing design for potential buildings and structures. 00:14:42
And so that really took basically 2 full years to get all the infrastructure installed and put in and, and at that point we were 00:14:50
ready to try and market it for different uses and, but even then it was a difficult time because the cost. 00:14:58
The cost of construction for office building was such that our rents. 00:15:07
Were significantly higher than what would be. 00:15:13
Achievable in Utah County. So we were probably 4 or $5 more per foot and so it became difficult for us to try and figure out how 00:15:18
do we. 00:15:22
Bring the cost down or what do we do and and at one point we hired a broker to and you may all you probably can't miss a sign 00:15:27
Brandon Hugo, who's all over Utah County and on every building that you drive by pretty much and he was he's been really helpful 00:15:34
and he could he brought some potential users to us, but it never worked because we needed the time to actually design the building 00:15:41
construct it through all the. 00:15:49
Get all the contracts signed for the construction cost and everything else. 00:15:56
So it's just been delayed and one of the things, so the office market during that time was difficult for us to really accommodate 00:16:01
because of the rental cost. But the multifamily market was still thriving and working. But our agreement was that we at this if we 00:16:09
were building multi family at the same time, we had to be building the commensurate office related to it. 00:16:17
And so that's sort of been. 00:16:26
Something that's made it difficult to get our project started honestly and. 00:16:31
So we're, we've, as Morgan mentioned, we've had meetings with he and his staff and a meeting or two with Mayor Fulmer and they 00:16:37
kind of tried to give us some direction on how it might work and how we could make this work. 00:16:43
Are and Steve will talk about it more further, but our multi family will be different. It's going to be higher end than what is 00:16:51
existing now, so it's going to be unique. When we did the form based code, the idea was that we wanted this to be a dance as as 00:16:57
Morgan mentioned, a dance pedestrian friendly. 00:17:03
Comfortable environment and really an urban environment. We wanted it to be more urban and more rural or you know, more suburban. 00:17:09
And so that was really our intent from the start and we felt over and then COVID didn't help anything obviously either with what 00:17:17
was happening with cost, going through the roof for construction and other things. 00:17:25
But we felt all along if we could just get something going on the site. 00:17:34
And that it would allow the people that drive by it every day to see, well, something's going on, this is going to be real, 00:17:39
something's going to happen here. That that would open the door or the floodgates to let us get going and get things happening. So 00:17:44
anyway, do you want to go to this slide? 00:17:49
So just go back to the zoning excerpt from from what we got approved. The forge mixed-use district is intended to encourage a 00:17:56
mixture of commercial office and residential uses within an urban neighborhood. Development in the forest mixed-use district is 00:18:03
intended to provide a pedestrian oriented, safe and attractive streetscape and a controlled and compatible setting for residential 00:18:10
and commercial development. The standards are intended to achieve established objectives for urban and. 00:18:18
Design pedestrian amenities and land use regulation. And then we had the next clause in 4.08 point 3 residential intensity. This 00:18:25
is where it laid out that the quantity of residential uses approved or constructed shall never exceed 1/2 of the quantity of non 00:18:32
residential uses approved or constructed as measured in total floor area square feet. So that's been the clause that's really kind 00:18:38
of made. 00:18:44
Our. 00:18:51
Our challenge to try and get something going that's made it difficult, I'll just add. 00:18:53
This purpose withheld on to. 00:19:01
And we still believe in that purpose and we've everything that we're gonna propose today, we can still meet that purpose. And 00:19:04
they're not trying to change the intent, but just change a little bit to the market conditions we'll get more into. So yeah. And 00:19:11
so COVID obviously impacted and you've all seen what that's done in office and how people are now remote or partially remote. And 00:19:18
so that that then raised this question of what is office space going to look like when the pandemic is over? 00:19:25
Are people going to stay working remotely for the most part? Are they going to build bigger office buildings so they have social 00:19:33
distancing within their within their office spaces so their people can come to work and feel more safe? There are a lot of 00:19:39
unknowns on what that will look like. And so it's really hard for us to really determine what that is until we get past the 00:19:46
pandemic and start seeing what development looks like on the office side. 00:19:53
So. 00:20:01
The as was mentioned earlier, part of our challenges on the office space have just been the construction crop toss growth that 00:20:03
we've experienced since the pandemic started. 00:20:09
Making a dense urban project means that rather than having surface parking, we're looking at structured parking. Structured 00:20:16
parking is expensive, and that basically adds. 00:20:22
75 to $90.00 per square foot. 00:20:29
To the office investment for the parking and it. And so it's the same thing. This in turn requires 5 to $6 more per foot in annual 00:20:32
rent versus a surface parking lot building. And it's really it's almost impossible for us to meet that right now with with where 00:20:39
we stand. So we'll talk more about the overall plan. I guess what I'll say is one of the things that Mayor Fulmer asked we 00:20:46
originally. 00:20:53
Looked at what we call just phase one, which included a multi family apartment building, a modest sized office building and a 00:21:01
hotel. And Mayor Fulmer said, I want you to look at it in whole. I want to see you lay out the whole project of what you intend to 00:21:08
do it for the full build out. And so that's what we went back to the drawing board and put together and Steve will be showing that 00:21:14
to you. 00:21:20
Now as we go forward, I'm happy to answer any questions if you want, or we could just have Steve continue. 00:21:27
I've got a couple of questions and some comments I suppose. So one of the things that no viable market interest to date because 00:21:36
we're not Lehigh basically I. 00:21:42
Can you maybe speak to how Pleasant Grove and London have continued to see office growth in their areas and why that wouldn't be 00:21:49
potential here? Yeah, I, I think it's potential here. And as I mentioned, Brandon, people have drummed up some users. It's, it's 00:21:57
really just a need for something to get started, which I think will make it viable. 00:22:04
We, you know, Lehigh has obviously attracted a lot of with Silicon Slopes and everything else that's a hot spot for people to go. 00:22:14
But we think ours can be just that hot, too, once we get something started. And we're just, you know, a few exits down the freeway 00:22:23
from Lehigh and our access is much easier and much easier to get on and off the freeway and than it ever was in Lehigh. And so we 00:22:30
do certainly have advantages. 00:22:36
The structured parking is a piece of that as well, right? I mean some of the suburban office, I think some of it's got some 00:22:45
structured parking in there. That's structured parking requirement. Like I said, it's a big investment. Now we're paying $28,000 00:22:49
apartment stall instead of you know a few $1000 of parking stall, which really drives cost, changes the market environment and so 00:22:54
it kind of takes. 00:22:58
I think maybe the comment probably one of the bigger concerns I have is we, we, there's an area of the city that was just rezoned 00:23:34
for residential and there was some concern about, well that doesn't necessarily fit with what was in the general plan. And my 00:23:42
biggest concern with mixed-use is we have a mixed-use zone and we have mixed-use nowhere. 00:23:51
We have a bunch of residential and then we have some commercial there. There is literally no mixed-use. 00:24:00
Area in our in our city and I just think we need to be careful when we go from you know 2015 no housing to 2018 limited housing to 00:24:06
2022 majority housing. You can see how people would be concerned about that or how that would go contrary to the general plan. And 00:24:14
I get the market conditions and I, I appreciate you laying that out I just think that that's that's a tough one because. 00:24:22
It just changes, you know, if it's, if it's a more, if it just becomes an extension of apartment row. 00:24:31
That that's fine. I mean, I have nothing against people being able to live here. I love that people could come and it's probably 00:24:39
great for the existing businesses. I just think it changes some of the intent and the vision of the city. And I know that things 00:24:44
change with with the market, but I also want to make sure that. 00:24:49
Vineyard had a great chance to be unique and still has a great chance to be unique. 00:24:55
But I fear we're kind of just becoming the. 00:25:01
Blah, Utah County sprawl indistinguishable from anywhere else. Now I've seen some of the plans and it's not what I've seen 00:25:04
everywhere else. So I like, I have some hope there, but that that's my fear and I just wanted to get that out there is that it's 00:25:11
just like, am I just doing track home apartment stuff in Springville or am I in American Fork or am I in Vineyard? Like what? 00:25:18
What's unique about it? And I think that's something that we really need to try to preserve if at all possible here in Vineyard. 00:25:24
Can I just want to do that? I completely agree with you. I mean with the the RMU district, I mean one of the major issues with 00:25:32
that district as well. 00:25:35
Was that there was number real standards in it. It said like mixed-use village, you know, we're going to have a great village, but 00:25:40
then it allows for standalone residential with no like requirements other than the cap and the residential units. And and so then 00:25:46
what happened is you had the the folks that did just multifamily come in and bought the majority of the district and that that's 00:25:52
all they they built. Well, one kind of benefit of the the forge that it does have the form based code. And so it does elevate the 00:25:57
overall design. 00:26:03
Additionally, the. 00:26:10
The development agreement tool is, is a great tool to ensure you get mixed-use. And so that that's something too that I would 00:26:12
encourage the Commission to think about is if there are things that you really want to see, you want to ensure you can build that 00:26:17
into the, into the development agreement as well. So from like an urban design standpoint, if you want, and we will be proposing 00:26:23
to you, we'll be showing you what we're proposing to develop. 00:26:29
Yeah. And that's those are great comments and great questions. And you know when I look back and I don't think I'm wrong, but I 00:26:35
could be Morgan, but. 00:26:39
That RMU district did call for if there were, there had to be a mix of uses and one of them had to be at least 30% of the project 00:26:45
and that was never adhered when they built all those apartments down there, there was nothing that was mixed, but it was it was in 00:26:52
the code. And that's why when I came, you know saying well, wait, we're trying to we're actually trying to do it mixed-use project 00:26:59
and yet there's a moratorium and we can't do it and. 00:27:06
So. 00:27:13
It's just interesting how things were viewed differently or whatever it was, but. 00:27:14
Steve's right though. I think we're going to show you some things that hopefully will be compelling. So a couple of my comments to 00:27:21
add to that. As far as commercial growth, has Office Space been the only commercial growth that you guys have gone after or what? 00:27:28
Because I know obviously office space took a big hit during COVID, but it seems like the development just South of you has had a 00:27:35
lot of success with commercial space in their area. I'm just curious. 00:27:40
Well, yeah, we we have been. 00:27:47
Well, we're going to be a little bit different too, because we want to have our retail be local, not big national restaurant 00:27:50
chains that you can see on any corner. So when when we do get in a position where we can build a building that has retail on the 00:27:57
main floor or it's an independent building, you know, we're looking at doing a food hall perhaps in one building. We want it to be 00:28:03
more. 00:28:10
Locally centric than national. 00:28:17
And so, you know, hopefully that sort of answers your question, but if we were looking for larger box retail, we were looking for 00:28:20
drive-throughs and things of that nature, I think we could probably market that kind of commercial. The code doesn't really allow 00:28:27
that for us in this right now, right? It's parking again, it's everything right up to the right up to the street parking garage 00:28:34
and it's urban streetscape. It's not that kind of environment with adhered to that vision. 00:28:40
But if we were to switch to the same kind of development that our neighborhoods to the South are doing. 00:28:48
Clearly, there's a market for it. Yeah, yeah. 00:28:54
And then kind of my other, really my biggest issue with the whole thing, I love how it looks and stuff and you guys are going to 00:28:57
get into it and I'm excited to hear about it all, but it's going from. 00:29:02
Two square feet of commercial and one square foot of residential to going to something that's way the opposite direction. We're 00:29:08
not even going to one square foot of commercial and two square feet of residential. We're possibly going one square foot of 00:29:15
commercial and 20 square feet of residential. So completely in the opposite direction. That's that's going to be my biggest hang 00:29:22
up with the whole thing is how big of an adjustment we're going from. 00:29:28
The city. 00:29:37
As you've seen the rest of the city, we have a ton of residential, a ton especially on Mill Road, and we're looking for commercial 00:29:38
and areas like this, areas just South of this I. 00:29:45
We're looking, we want commercial and that's kind of how it was agreed. So that's just kind of where I'm going to be coming from 00:29:52
with all this is I have a hard time. 00:29:56
Making that big of a change with something like this. 00:30:02
I hear you obviously anticipated that comment. I will certainly address it as I think some of the imagery and stuff that I've got 00:30:06
will. 00:30:09
Will explain some of the logic and thinking that we had our events. 00:30:13
I'll just say I went to BYU 20 years ago and I remember that. 00:30:19
I'm still plant had been announced it was going away and I was wondering what it was going to be like. And so it's interesting now 00:30:24
to be a part of what is this going to be like. And I've spent a lot of time studying Vineyard and we've been touring apartments. 00:30:31
We've been touring your land. I've spent countless hours now on maps and studying and trying to understand what Vineyard is. And 00:30:38
just a passion and driver for me is that we integrate into your community well. 00:30:44
As a developer, we understand. We come in and. 00:30:52
I have real heartache when people come in with too much self-interest and not, you know, gather the community and make sure it 00:30:57
works. And so hopefully with with the staff will will agree like we want to listen, we want to make this collaborative and and we 00:31:03
want to make it a win win for both. So so we're here with that objective. These objectives are what we kind of played out with 00:31:08
with Morgan and the mayor early on. Like what is really important here, Master. 00:31:14
Master Plan. 00:31:21
Pedestrian mixed-use, right? Again, we really want to hold on to mixed-use and make that work. 00:31:23
Our timeline, you know, we started October 6th talking with staff here we are at the working session. We hope to be able to come 00:31:56
back, you know, early in December for approval based on your feedback and then come to the City Council on the on the 17th. So on 00:32:01
to the next. 00:32:05
Their comment 14. Oh yeah, 14. Sorry. 00:32:11
So when we stepped back and said what makes sense and one of the things that we heard early on from. 00:32:14
Staff and and then the mayor was. 00:32:23
So these are some of the imagery that kind of inspired us to say, you know, there's green, there's some hardscape, there's a 00:32:56
variety of different surfaces. And so these are some of the imagery that this spoke to us and started the thinking around what is 00:33:02
our master plan want to be that we want to propose to you. 00:33:07
So this is the first look of a plan view. I'll just highlight that these buildings are really footprints that are shown for 00:33:15
conceptual purposes. What we're coming to you with in the development agreement is based on is really the space between the 00:33:21
buildings that we're trying to agree on. And what is that space? How much is that space right in exchange for a revised 00:33:27
entitlement of the of the commercial just knowing the market conditions. 00:33:32
And so. 00:33:39
You know, this 8 acres of programmed open space will show you, you know, I think that's, I think the current code might require 00:33:41
I'll have to go back and look at that slide. But three to three to five acres in that, in that range of open space, we've 00:33:46
increased it. 00:33:51
We've had this idea that we could maybe take, you know, block off Calderon St. Which. 00:33:58
I'm just going to make it so you can see my mouse. 00:34:05
All right, put some blocks on each of these and be able to take this event space, all this space, even these East West parks and 00:34:08
create really kind of an event venue, right. And that was one of the one of the original thoughts. 00:34:16
We want to be able to draw pedestrians in from the South and and so we put this pedestrian pathway that kind of comes up through 00:34:24
from the theater that can walk through the forge and invite you into this come for dining experience or whatever else is going to 00:34:29
going to happen there. 00:34:33
And so, yeah, that's, that is the big picture on this highlight that there is this block that sits behind the theater. It's called 00:34:40
block H on the in the in the code lot 10 in the flat and it's not shown here. I think it's kind of got master time. We're trying 00:34:46
to figure out how it fits into this greater plan. It's quite detached IHC on this piece of land right here that's in brown. We 00:34:53
don't own it, we don't control it. And and this lot sits down here kind of behind the theater. So we're trying to figure out. 00:35:00
How that will integrate right? Just because it does feel a little bit detached from a from a continuity perspective, but. 00:35:07
Going on to the next slide and just imagine too talking about kind of making the connection from the South and N that's something 00:35:14
too that the mayor thought was really important was to make sure that like the yard and the megaplex wasn't just like its own pod 00:35:20
and then you built like another. But like she wanted to see better integration between the whole development. So it was more of a 00:35:26
unified design in that whole commercial district as opposed to 1 development and then another development. 00:35:32
We see that pedestrian connectivity important, right? We'll provide dining. We're going to provide certain experiential retail. We 00:35:40
won't be able to be able to park in one place and walk up to the Forge. 00:35:45
So we talked about the space between the buildings. These are kind of the designated areas that we're putting up the development 00:35:51
agreement saying we will provide this 8 acres of highly programmed open space made-up of. 00:35:57
Parks linear parks on both sides. This large pedestrian shared street that would go through. 00:36:04
And that internal ally that again draws people from the South up with a, with a large, you know, 2.2 acre central Plaza that sits 00:36:11
right in the middle. 00:36:14
For events for park like experience. So I'll pause there any. 00:36:19
Thoughts. Just from a plan view perspective as you look at this, any questions about what we're, what we're proposing, the 00:36:25
development agreement will assure a certain amount of quality and a certain amount of features within each of these dashed areas, 00:36:30
which again is really the essence of the development agreement. 00:36:35
I have a question on Mill Rd. accessibility, excuse me, the Vineyard connector accessibility in Geneva Rd. are those like right 00:36:41
in, right out? 00:36:44
Yeah, the top and then over on. So here we've assumed this would be a ride out only, OK. 00:36:49
And what was the other location over there on Geneva Rd. 00:36:55
We're assuming this will end up being a write out as well because it's so close. You're not going to allow us to do much else. I 00:36:58
think that's appropriate. This intersection down here at 650, I think. 00:37:03
You know there's gonna be 1 to be left turntling on that but. 00:37:08
We. 00:37:13
Fire out and around as needed. 00:37:45
Got it. 00:37:52
Is this plan to be rentals or this is? I would say that's not fully decided. I mean, certainly apartments as a rental will be a 00:37:55
major component of it. 00:37:59
You're looking at without the sold off rentals or your company actually owning as an apartment complex to some extent, right? But 00:38:04
I think condos could be interesting down down the road and based on market conditions as well sometime to be considered. 00:38:10
Next two slides are just some elevations that. 00:38:25
Were put together you can see the orientation against the master plan on the top left corner if I was standing in that Plaza 00:38:29
looking you know Jeff talked about potentially a food hall this is an area we would love to put a food hall be able to open up 00:38:36
doors bring a music event right there and put a Patty up above and you know have that residential in the background so. 00:38:43
Gives you a feel for what it might be like on the on the street if you were part of their interest in seating. That water there is 00:38:51
just kind of representing some kind of a feature. We anticipate art, public art. Maybe it's some kind of a water feature, but 00:38:56
we're certainly convenient to do something of interest within that Plaza. 00:39:02
The next elevation is if I'm standing in what we're calling the shared pedestrian St. 00:39:11
Now looking West. 00:39:19
You know, maybe after the left there's a bakery there. Again, we've got residential. Maybe as we look into that, maybe there's 00:39:22
some Stoops and some right real integration with this, with that, with that street for those residential units, maybe that ends up 00:39:27
being commercial on the right as well. We've considered that, but getting commercial on on the ground floor. 00:39:33
But this interesting lighting trees. 00:39:39
Non monolithic Gray paving, right, some kind of interest through pavers or cut lines is kind of the quality that we're we're 00:39:43
anticipating bringing plantings, landscaping, benches, all of those, those types of features that you're seeing here. 00:39:49
Next if we. 00:40:00
What is like 10? 00:40:03
This is. 00:40:06
Shown to give a feeling for the mass that would be there based on what we're asking for. Again, the vertical structures that 00:40:08
you're seeing are representative only. Those would be dealt with on a site plan by site plan basis. And I can tell you some of the 00:40:13
uses that we're considering. 00:40:18
Within some of the commercial space we would like in our original proposal was that this was the Hotel 125 Key hotel. 00:40:23
All right, this was an office building. 00:40:31
We would like a food hall sitting here, maybe some dining experience right here along the the central Plaza and the Central Park 00:40:34
flank with some office on either corner. Again, trying to create a a strong presence that you're coming into the. 00:40:40
Into Vineyard. So those are some of the first thoughts when I look at that. I think, you know, it's really interesting if you're 00:40:48
talking mixed-use. 00:40:52
You know, if there's, I think this picture here depicts 1100 apartment units, about 5-6 hundred thousand square feet of office and 00:40:56
another 100,000 plus of of of retail. If this was the massing that was actually built out. If I live in one of these apartments 00:41:03
and I work right here and I can eat right here, one of the things we're really working to try to attract is a grocery that would 00:41:10
sit on the ground floor here. You know, now I can shop here for food. There'll be some other retail. 00:41:17
I can come and I can entertain myself here, and if we can be wise about connecting a pedestrian way up to the Utah lake, I can get 00:41:25
nature and I can get right a real experience. I don't have to leave this place for weeks if I don't want to. 00:41:31
And so to me from that perspective, it's really balanced on a residential. If you've got 1100 units and you got about 2000 00:41:39
occupants, we're also employing about 2000 and 2500 people here between the office and the retail, which you'll see in the TIF 00:41:47
application that we've we've made. To me it feels balanced in terms of work live, 15 minute city kind of a concept. 00:41:55
If I'm looking at the next view. 00:42:08
Which? 00:42:15
Here I my mind always goes to. 00:42:16
What this is going to look like in the holiday season, right? We got the Christmas trees, we got the property owners association 00:42:21
or the city sponsoring some events. We got hot chocolate and we got Santa Claus kids lined up in line at the at the center Plaza, 00:42:27
right. Again, event based really interesting a destination place that people want to come. That's our vision. It's a vineyard 00:42:33
scale, a city Creek or. 00:42:39
You know, some of these larger mixed-use developments is is the way that we see it and want to be able to execute it so. 00:42:46
We talked about this being a different kind of housing. If anybody's familiar with the Exton there at the University Place Mall, 00:42:54
like right, we see it at at that kind of a scale, right, really mixed-use, really integrated in with with all the retail around it 00:43:00
and a quality that's a little bit above. 00:43:06
Maybe some of the other that you've seen in Vineyard to date. 00:43:14
So that's the kind of the imagery and the vision. I'll pause there and we'll kind of get into some of the specifics of what we're 00:43:19
asking for in order to execute to this vision. 00:43:23
So these renderings, these are showing parking structures. 00:43:30
OK, these are. 00:43:35
There's a little bit of surface parking you'll see kind of a long 650 N. 00:43:37
That again, just put there with the vision of a grocery store. With a grocery store, we feel like some surface parking. 00:43:42
Is is going to be important and necessary just to shopping carts grades, right? It's going to be one story grocery store. It's not 00:43:49
going to be two-story grocery store. So so having some amount of at grade parking, I think is important for that. I personally 00:43:55
think the world's worst grocery store could come in here and be very successful. 00:44:01
It's hard to hard to imagine a grocery store not succeeding in Vineyard like a pick and save, right? You guys remember those? I 00:44:09
don't know what that is. 00:44:13
But it has milk and eggs. It will probably do just fine, food and stuff. 00:44:18
Yeah, they'll have great storefront right across from that Plaza. It'll be it'll be a fantastic site. Is there any way and the 00:44:26
Commission you guys can ask questions to I'm just kind of curious, but on the on the North East corner, if you could go back to 00:44:32
like the plan view? 00:44:38
Doing structured there with some sort of. 00:45:16
Like outer layer of either retail or or condo units I would say. So the the, the NE lot you have like the parking lot facing both 00:45:21
of those streets, there was a way to enclose that a little bit more. 00:45:29
Oh, sorry, you can't tell me my NE yeah, they're right there, right there. Is that a parking garage? Is that that's a parking 00:45:39
garage. OK, so maybe like something on the ground floor that's that's not a parking garage. That's either retail or like I did the 00:45:45
University Mall. Like that's one thing that's really cool how they do their residential is they use it to to kind of veneer the, 00:45:51
the yeah, the the parking structures and it looks really nice. 00:45:57
Yeah, yeah. That's what the extent did there and I think that's interesting and the forward current code. 00:46:04
You know it can't just be a boring parking garage facade. The code already requires it to be commercial or screened in some 00:46:11
interesting way. So whether there's structures there or not, it's going to be screened and look like structure. 00:46:17
Affordable housing as part of this rental units. 00:46:27
You know, the topics come up, we've talked quite a bit about it. 00:46:31
And. 00:46:36
You know when we look across Vineyard and we look at what right, when you talk affordable housing, usually it's compared to 00:46:40
against an AMI, right, The average median income. 00:46:44
And we did kind of a quick study of what is, am I in Utah County and how does the vineyard stack up against that and. 00:46:48
If you look at the Concorde, the mill, the vine. 00:46:57
And what's your other large one? 00:47:01
No point an hour, 1500 units, every one of them 70 to 80% AMI. You have a lot of kind of what from a developers perspective is 00:47:04
affordable housing. I'm not, I'm not closing the door, but I also know the economics and I think it would be interesting to take 00:47:11
those economics and invest them into, you know, this kind of experiential thing and let this be market rate. 00:47:18
And, and let that play out knowing that you have an abundance of affordable housing. If that doesn't feel right to you, I'm not 00:47:26
closing the door on that discussion, but I, I do wonder if that isn't the right answer for this development, knowing it's going to 00:47:31
be different. Steve, have you guys looked at possibly doing like I, I know there's like tax credits, there's different things on 00:47:36
programs out there. 00:47:41
Yeah, and there's there's a huge interest in doing a project for like first response police, firefighters, EMT, first responders, 00:48:18
teachers doing some kind of maybe smaller. 00:48:23
Designation that's appropriate for maybe a specific city you'd like first responders. I think that would be absolutely awesome, 00:48:29
right? Be able to provide a place to be able to live like this for for a specific need as opposed to, you know, generic 15 or 20% 00:48:35
affordable. That will change the character of the development. It really will the economic even with the life tech credits, which 00:48:40
I think you're talking about. 00:48:45
It's it's a different game and it's a challenging game and there's a reason affordable housing, you know, it ends up ends up being 00:48:51
what it is. Oftentimes it's it's not this one bedroom, 1 bath, 700 square feet is starting at 1231 per month. I'm not I'm not sure 00:48:57
that. 00:49:04
Yeah, it's affordable housing. We can show you the AMI again. I'm based on a lot of. 00:49:11
Interest in at least analyzing it, I think would be worth it. Kevin, I think we hear you. I think the question is, is and we'll 00:49:46
get into it more like what is the character of this and what do we want it to be and just understanding there's also market 00:49:51
impacts to that, right and so. 00:49:57
The parking garages make it a little bit more challenging, so I hear it. The desire will certainly do more studying. Sounds like 00:50:04
that's something everybody will want to hear more about. 00:50:09
Real quick, do we know how many units are in the all the rest of that area Divine the male point, concord and alloy combined? Do 00:50:15
we know how many units? 00:50:22
Too many, too many waters and edges. I I think we're at like there's 2100. Is that, is that where we're at? I counted 1500 without 00:50:29
the edge. If you take it, yeah, the edge is like another 500. OK. 00:50:38
Yeah, I recall when everything was about 20. 00:50:48
Yeah. 00:50:52
I think that's about about what we landed on. Yeah, we do have those numbers we compose for you if you if you like them. OK. Yeah, 00:50:53
yeah. I'm just curious because this is saying and this the maximum residential building units is 1500 for this. So we're talking 00:50:58
about doubling the residential units for this area. 00:51:04
With. 00:51:10
You can keep you on. Again, I'm going to bring this up again and again on how I'm not comfortable with this. But yeah, Steve, 00:51:12
question for you, Brian Amaya, Steve Liner. Are these units sold individually or the HOA maintained or maintained by a property 00:51:17
manager? 00:51:23
Once you said these units, can you like the building is what you're saying, right? Yeah, each building. 00:51:30
How it's going to develop, I don't know that we can predict exactly the. I mean typically development agreement will give rights 00:51:36
to be able to assign. 00:51:40
You know, be able to sell parcels and and because of the development agreement will go with with the land. Those same requirements 00:51:47
will be will flow to the next buyer. 00:51:51
You know, our Dakota Pacific wants to build an own real estate and like I say as much as their departments in here, I think 00:51:57
there's an interest for us to own. There is a property management will be a property owners association for the whole complex. 00:52:03
These these streets today are private. 00:52:08
Within the forge and so all these common areas want to be maintained. So that would be done through a property owners association, 00:52:14
you know, which all owners would pay into to to deal with the maintenance of the whole complex. 00:52:19
Did answer the question. 00:52:27
I guess I was wondering about the residential it because we're talking about residential, right? OK, OK. Apartments. 00:52:30
Apartments, basically some mix of condos in the future. Again, I don't know. I think it'll depend on how that all shakes out. Like 00:52:37
some of those smaller retail buildings, they could have some condos above them. 00:52:42
So I don't know, Again, it's kind of we're going to focus on the space between knowing that this will develop out, you know, for 00:52:47
eight years and a lot of things are going to, you know, the market's going to respond, but the development agreement will create 00:52:53
an anchor of what the space needs is ultimately going to look like. 00:52:59
Thank you, Steve. 00:53:07
So that's the big picture vision. 00:53:11
In order to get here. 00:53:16
Like we've talked about. 00:53:19
Residential intensity being one of the challenges. 00:53:21
So if you're talking about commercial and you're thinking about we want more commercial, knowing that office is going to be a 00:53:24
challenge that takes out a lot of the multi story commercial opportunities. There's not a lot of commercials, there's medical 00:53:30
office use and some others that can provide potentially multi story. 00:53:36
Commercial, right? Look at what's happening to the South of us. It's single story commercial. 00:53:45
And here we have parking garages and minimum heights. Right now the minimum height within our district is 20 feet and so. 00:53:50
We said maybe what's we can attract commercial, but we can't necessarily attract multi story commercial very easily. And so that's 00:53:59
where this idea came in like what if we took the ground floor area and said the ground floor area needs to be at least 50% 00:54:04
commercial. 00:54:09
And so we're saying 50% of that area on the ground floor would be commercial. 00:54:16
All right, we can bring a grocery store in and we can put nothing else above it. 00:54:22
All right. And we can get some square footage there if we're looking at square footage, but I don't know if the city ultimately 00:54:27
benefits. Maybe there's density concerns, we can talk about that if there is, I don't know if the city benefits a whole lot from 00:54:32
having a grocery store without anything above it versus something having above it. So that's what this idea of a ground floor 00:54:36
requirement came in and then just a maximum residential units to figure out, you know, let us figure out over time how to fit in 00:54:41
the residential units. 00:54:46
And so knowing that the commercial is going to follow some kind of sense of place and building some momentum, we know multifamily, 00:54:52
we know that that markets there. We start with multifamily and then we're saying after we build that initial multifamily building, 00:54:58
don't let any more than 20% of that ground floor area. 00:55:04
Or at least 20% has to be commercial at anyone point in time. So bind us to kind of bringing the commercial in over time and 00:55:12
ultimately needs to be 50%. So we would obviously have to continually show you our plan of how we're going to meet the 50% as we 00:55:16
develop. 00:55:21
But that was the proposal on residential intensity. 00:55:26
And I'll have some more imagery that will talk about kind of how much commercial there is. 00:55:30
But Commissioner Brady, that was that was the thinking like multi story commercials challenging what are we going to bring to 00:55:36
really bring a million square feet of of commercial and because otherwise we'll be pushed to kind of 1-2 story kind of stuff. 00:55:42
I guess for me personally I'd rather see 1-2 store kind of stuff than see a bunch of potential units I. 00:55:50
If multi story commercial is not possible, I still like to see commercial rather than residential for this area just because as 00:55:58
great as residential is, it doesn't bring a lot for the thousands of residential units that are already there. And the expectation 00:56:06
from the city when we made the agreement in the 1st place was. 00:56:15
A large commercial. 00:56:25
Development. So if we go one to two-story commercial. 00:56:27
I think you'll get about the same amount of commercial as we're proposing, right? 00:56:32
Because mostly our. 00:56:37
I don't, I don't know you'll get that much of a difference because now you're just flattening the whole the whole program to some 00:56:42
extent, but. 00:56:45
I do understand. Is it just we're going to have taller buildings, is it than just number of residents or you really think you're 00:56:50
going to get less commercial with this new program? I mean compared to what we had, absolutely we're going to get less commercial 00:56:56
than than what was originally planned on a 2 to one scale. 00:57:02
And of course, the residentials were we would essentially be doubling, almost doubling the amount of units in that area. That's 00:57:11
double the traffic, that's double the cars, that's double the things that everybody in Vineyard complaints about currently. 00:57:18
So that's kind of hard. I mean, we have the downtown development coming in and they're right next to a transit station. And the 00:57:27
whole point of that area is. 00:57:31
To have a bunch of people that aren't driving cars as often. Umm. 00:57:37
And. 00:57:43
I don't know and. 00:57:45
Still listening to it, I'm still trying to wrap my head around it and. 00:57:46
Seeing if it makes sense for me, but I feel like we're losing the intent of what we had planned for the area personally. 00:57:50
Any other input from so I, I think what one like point of providing some sub direction is, you know, if you want to see some, some 00:57:59
data. And so you, you, you brought up like, like traffic and those kind of things. And I, I think that for a Planning Commission 00:58:06
that that's those, those are the kind of things that the applicant should, should be looking for is, you know, what built out 00:58:13
conditions, what's the traffic? What is the impact on the infrastructure? How are city engineer analyze it? 00:58:20
I think that those are the kind of things that that should really inform the the Planning Commission. And then if you have like 00:58:28
specific things about the residential that just from a land use perspective that that that provide you heartburn, you know, like 00:58:33
kind of talking about those. If there's like the impacts, if it's like infrastructure, having them analyze like water, sewer, you 00:58:38
know, like those those kind of things. I think that would be really helpful for when they come back through the process to to be 00:58:43
able to address. 00:58:48
Some of those concerns if it's from an impact standpoint. 00:58:54
Our traffic impact study will be. 00:58:58
Will be done by the end of the month. The Vineyard connected Geneva intersection, it's a tough one. It's already at a low level of 00:59:00
service, right. And so that's where I think a lot of the focus will be Mill Road and. 00:59:05
You know, Cauldron building so far from all indications look OK, it's really a vineyard connector and Geneva as well as 650 in 00:59:12
Geneva and those those are going to be the challenging ones are going to need some upgrades in order to enable this development. 00:59:19
They have up to 1500 housing units, he said. Before, between 2000 and 2100, employees that would work on the actual commercial 00:59:29
side, on the bottom floors. Yeah, So again, we have. 00:59:35
We've got a framework for what the vertical could look like, right? And that's 4 to 500,000 square feet of office. 00:59:42
170,000 a retail, we got some hotels and so based on that, that's how many people would be working in that area. So you have how 00:59:48
many residents here. The next slide you have parking, it mentions parking structures. What's the requirement? I guess that would 00:59:54
be in the planner in the area of parking spots per structure. 01:00:00
Yeah. So each your current code defines that 34000 for office. I think a market demands a little bit higher than that. The 01:00:07
residential is 1 1/2 units per dwelling unit. So, so, so how how would we and when we see what's happened in all of our high 01:00:14
residential areas even coming in here, I got a tax while here people complaining about the parking at Lakeshore. So so how would 01:00:21
how would this not create the same problem again? 01:00:28
Of college students or every room being rented out individually and we have two or three cars per unit. 01:00:36
And then parking just overflowing, Yeah. 01:00:42
Our there's the market conditions and what the code requires today. I think market conditions would want to be a little higher 01:00:46
than the one point $5 per unit. 01:00:50
But you have this great advantage of shared parking. 01:00:56
Office vacates every night and now we have parking garages that are sitting empty and so mixed-use really does solve a lot of the 01:01:00
challenges with parking and as much as right. 01:01:05
You've got office vacating that also helps with all the rest the evening commercial and restaurants, right? Because we have, I 01:01:11
mean, take Tucker Row because what do they have? Two parking spots per unit, plus they have overflow spots and they still have 01:01:17
issues and they're way above that. That 1.25 I don't think we're even close to because you're, I think you're going to end up with 01:01:23
a lot of college students individually renting there. 01:01:29
You know it's we're the fools if we approve any more housing projects. 01:01:36
Without requiring parking permit programs that are and I think and a lot of, a lot of extra spots. I mean, what's there so far? We 01:01:41
say an HOA is going to manage it or I mean, if you only permit 2 spots per unit, then that makes it very clear to them. 01:01:50
And everyone's doing, but they still run out to everyone. It's single individuals coming into every room. And they're there to 01:02:00
make a profit. So that either the city changes code to enforce it, or we can't keep approving these housing projects at the 01:02:05
second. There's going to be no problem. And every time there's a problem. 01:02:10
I mean, we look at Edgewater where I live and it's. 01:02:16
And say at least half college students, and some of those units are three to four bedrooms. And again, each bedroom is rented out, 01:02:21
so they're like 4 cars per unit. 01:02:27
And that right now they're being allowed to park in that dirt lot that's 2 seconds from being developed. 01:02:34
And yeah, and they got, we have a permitting program with the businesses across the street that's like it's like 100 bucks a month 01:02:41
to be able to park there. Like this sucks, but I. 01:02:48
Yeah. So when we say that we're looking for affordable housing, but we're saying is it would be really great if people could 01:02:56
actually afford to live in these places without having to rent out their sublet rooms that cause all of these parking impact 01:03:03
issues. Does that make sense? 01:03:10
Yeah. And right now the people who work in Vineyard can't afford to live in Vineyard. Our city employees, everybody who's gonna 01:03:17
work in that commercial space, they, they probably won't be able to afford to live in those units. So, well, one thing with the 01:03:23
parking, because it's something we've, we've worked on for the last like 6 1/2 years since I've been here. I mean, it's always an 01:03:29
issue. We're a college town. It's, you know, it's, it's an issue that is going to persist. 01:03:36
But what we found is when, from an organizational standpoint, when an apartment complex is built. 01:03:43
Point and yeah, and alloy like all of those those four. I know that Edgewater is is has been working on, on, on theirs. The 01:04:18
problem with the Edgewater development, quite frankly is when it was built, it was parcel moth and everything was sold to 01:04:26
individual investors and that that made it really hard and the HOA and believe it or not, like the the like the parking. 01:04:35
I know, I know we get complaints, but it's actually gotten a lot, a lot better there than than it was. I mean, it was like 01:04:44
absolute nightmare. 01:04:47
Kind of oversight from that perspective, the more that the, the parking gets curtailed. And so I, I would say with this 01:05:21
development, that's something that you could also build into the development agreement, ensuring that there is a like a parking 01:05:27
management plan that's put in place and enforced. And another thing that that the Planning Commission to look at. And I thought 01:05:33
this was really creative when we did this with the downtown, if you remember. 01:05:39
The downtown code what it requires is when 500 units are built. 01:05:46
That a parking consultant have to then look at it and analyze will site conditions of that development and then the parking ratios 01:05:51
are are are altered depending on the actual parking need of that development. And and So what what it what it means is that the 01:05:58
management of the parking it puts a a a really big emphasis and responsibility on the management of the parking because if if 01:06:06
they're allowing four to five students per unit they're going to have a huge. 01:06:13
Arkin issue. And what's gonna happen is the parking ratios go up. So the next 500 units, we're gonna require a lot more parking. 01:06:21
And so we actually built that into the code. So as the project builds out, there's parking studies, I think we have four or five 01:06:27
different thresholds as it goes up they have to do another parking study and then that changes the parking requirements and so. 01:06:34
That they have real active enforcement and you can require that through the development agreement. Is the downtown is that 1.25 as 01:07:11
well per unit? It depends on the and it also depends on the sub district, the very right on the train station that has a lower 01:07:18
parking requirement than the the kind of the areas more on the periphery. 01:07:25
The what we submitted for the. 01:07:33
Development agreement basically says we need to bring the parking management plan to you. 01:07:37
With each vertical structure. 01:07:43
So I've got another comment and this one is a very +1. One thing I love about this is your desire to want to get moving on 01:07:46
something right away. And I think that that's. 01:07:52
I think most of us would like to see that rather than just, you know, dirt sitting there. 01:07:59
However, I wonder if like, does anything need to change in the code for that? Or could we make variations in the current code to 01:08:05
say, yeah, if you want to get started on the residential portion now, maybe we make allowances for that. I'm just thinking of 01:08:11
creative ways that we can get moving now. 01:08:17
Versus going from no residential to 1500 units because it's a big leap and you know, we've, we've got current code and approvals 01:08:25
right now. 01:08:31
And I love the desire to get moving on on something right now. And I'd like to see us to find a way to get that the undercurrent, 01:08:37
it basically says right now. 01:08:41
We can't build a residential till we need 2 square foot of commercial built first. So there is A and that that's what I'm saying 01:08:49
like what if, what if instead of revamping everything, we put the, you know, the order of what, what's approved so that we can get 01:08:55
moving, moving soon. Anyway, it's just a thought because I, I, I, I really like the energy and the desire to move because I can't 01:09:01
tell you how many times all of us in this room get asked like. 01:09:06
Intense retail experience kind of ensuring that through the master plan. And so I think that that does both that allows kind of 01:09:43
residential out the gate. You can do that in the development agreement and then you can also clarify like designated areas for 01:09:50
ground floor retail. The other, the other thing that I see proposed here is up to three acres or 300 dwelling units, whichever 01:09:56
comes first may be constructed in an initial phase without constructing non residential. 01:10:03
It's not a knock on you by any means, but I read that as 100% likely you will see. 01:10:10
300 dwelling units before any non residential is built and that's fine because I think. 01:10:15
How I read it is like you will certainly get that. My concern is if you zoom out and I know that's not all part of the same 01:10:21
project, but if you take all of Mill Rd. as if it were 11 project and again I know it's not the reason there was a moratorium is 01:10:28
because everyone did just that built that residential 1st and didn't build the non residential. So by the time you came around it 01:10:35
was like hey, the only stuff that's left is non residential. So what would prevent? 01:10:41
You from building 3 acres of residential. 01:10:49
And then maybe selling it off right or, you know, to somebody else. And then it's it's like, well, now you guys can't build 01:10:53
anymore. But then they come back here and say, how about we build some more residents? You know, it's almost like this little 01:10:58
microcosm of the same, same thing we've been doing with three years. Yeah, that's what the development agreement would obviously 01:11:02
transfer with the land, but. 01:11:07
Our desire, of course, is to develop this. 01:11:15
And once we're done with that building would be done, yeah, we can sell it, but the next person won't be able to do anything 01:11:17
either unless they negotiated change my development agreement, which is, which is yeah, which is what's happening here. So. 01:11:23
We just know that will create momentum. We, I will be honest with you, the margins and and the underwriting are tight on that just 01:11:31
because rents and vineyard for you know the kind of structure we're proposing to build. 01:11:38
It doesn't exist, right? Like. 01:11:47
We are building a downtown building and structure in a suburban area and that's always high risk for a developer and so. 01:11:52
We think we can build that and we can get that going. We have some confidence as the may but we also I mean our Phase 1 assumes 01:12:00
50,000 square foot office in a hotel. We are actively pursuing both of those developments as well. We we need to bring the 01:12:05
commercial in order for this whole thing to build out so. 01:12:11
And I was going to say too, if, if there's like a down the line, if there was a request for some sort of like RDA, we've been able 01:12:18
to use that too from a financial perspective that like increment doesn't, doesn't come back until certificate of occupancies for 01:12:24
commercial get get finalized. And so that that's helped us out quite a bit with the, with the, with the yard that pushed a lot of 01:12:29
like the medical office buildings to go vertical fairly quickly and the and the retail and Top golf. So if you notice kind of on 01:12:35
that. 01:12:41
We're able to kind of use like that the the financial incentive to to, to get the commercial in place a little faster. 01:12:47
How many square feet of how many square feet of commercial are you guys anticipating in with your current plans? That's about 600. 01:12:55
And how many square feet of presidential, I'll just put a asterisk on, it's 600 based on the kind of the massing diagram you saw. 01:13:05
I mean those are three story office buildings. If a user wants to come in and take 6678 stories, we have land and capacity to be 01:13:11
able to do that. But I guess that's just what we kind of maybe thought was a realistic based on the market of what could be 01:13:17
absorbed so. 01:13:23
So the commercial office user comes, we've got a place for them. 01:13:35
Right. 01:13:39
I don't think you'll see the absorption much higher than that 600,000 feet like say, unless you know MX wants to build a campus 01:13:42
all of a sudden and then your details. 01:13:47
With that in mind, I like. 01:13:55
The at least 50% non residential and ground floors. 01:13:58
I mean, I of course love to see that increased. 01:14:04
For me to feel more comfortable with the increase of residential density. 01:14:08
I also want to say that I like like the green space. I like that you're echoing what we're doing in our downtown just north. 01:14:14
And. 01:14:24
And I would like, I don't know for going to echo that, maybe consider echoing it. 01:14:27
Further, with how you are developing, does that make sense because that's a lot, a lot more ground floor commercial development? 01:14:35
With the residents above it. 01:14:44
So that's. 01:14:46
I'd like to see a little bit of forget the echo. Let's let's echo, you know, so you like seeing an increase on the the ground 01:14:49
floor retail, you know, above the 50%, right, Because I understand that like the residential makes us affordable for you to do. 01:14:57
And I don't want to inhibit development, so. 01:15:07
The ground floor retail from staff's perspective is, is a really critical thing to creating the vibrancy on the ground floor. And 01:15:12
so that's yeah. So an increase of that me personally. 01:15:17
I since I live so close, I hope I'll be walking up. There's a grocery store. I'll be walking to that grocery store probably weekly 01:15:23
because it's just so convenient. 01:15:27
Instead of driving all the way to Orem. 01:15:33
Just not. Anyway, that's my two cents. I like the green space, I like the concept, and I hope for an increase of the ground floor 01:15:36
commercial. 01:15:41
Appreciate that. 01:15:45
I'll move through a little bit more the open space. I just want to highlight again 8 acres. 01:15:50
That exceeds the three to six acres, right, So. 01:15:56
This is one of the things that we are giving up. 01:15:58
Right. In order to change this residential mix, all right, we're, we're not only giving up the land, but we're also investing 01:16:01
heavily in what that land is. And so that's an important component of I guess the give and take of this whole thing. And consider 01:16:07
how important that is, I guess in in the whole equation for everybody. 01:16:12
$10 million what would be the? 01:16:48
Financial investment I guess with this new request, I mean I would assume it's north of the 10 million. Yeah, we haven't we 01:16:52
haven't really worked that out at at this point. We've kind of had some conversations with that that would probably be a work 01:16:57
session with with the RDA. But one thing I would recommend is like if there is some concern with getting some of the commercial 01:17:03
like I find a case to make recommendations as far as like you know things that you'd like to see be attached to to an RDA 01:17:09
agreement. 01:17:14
But that might be something that. 01:17:21
Just think like to put on your taxpayer hat and if you say, hey taxpayer, we just approved more tax dollars to go to something and 01:17:23
you're getting more residential units and what you get in return is. 01:17:30
Two more acres of programmed open space, that's how a taxpayer that lives down in Sleepy Ridge might view it, right? That may not 01:17:38
be coming up and using this much. So I do think it's important that we have the numbers to understand, like what, what would the 01:17:44
city potentially be giving up from a tax standpoint? 01:17:50
To incentivize something like this versus because we're talking a lot about what will the market bear well if it requires tax 01:17:58
support and tax funding and RDA. 01:18:03
It's not necessarily what the market will bear either. That's being supported by tax dollars, which the RDA exists for that I 01:18:09
understand. And, and you know, economic development is important too. I just want to be really clear about what changed and why. 01:18:15
And I think it's very normal for anybody to say, I, I gave this and I got this. Like we just need to be able to clearly say that 01:18:21
that story and, and justify any decisions one way or another that that we make. 01:18:27
To clarify, the original 10 million was for one parking structure. 01:18:35
That was going to support office, right, Whereas there's also a model that was a proof of the downtown that was basically kind of 01:18:40
an ongoing for parking structure throughout the entire development. So dollars to dollars may be different because this was one 01:18:45
piece of a of a larger development. And you know, what we proposed is something closer to downtown, it's a little more fluid, it's 01:18:51
for the entire development so. 01:18:56
OK. 01:19:03
Residential intensity, we've got a few more slides on it. 01:19:07
Appropriately so. 01:19:10
Again, using kind of this example layout that we've we've put on here, this is for residential and commercial with layout and this 01:19:12
is like a 55% commercial 5560%. Thank you. 01:19:19
5560% commercial on the ground floor. 01:19:28
Again, that building was to put the grocery store we're aiming for. There'd be a little bit of residential in that building on the 01:19:31
ground floor and then residential above it, which. 01:19:36
Assuming we can get satisfied on, you know, some of the infrastructure impacts, we can build a grocery store without residential, 01:19:43
but we can build it above it. Does it cost the city anything or does it really add to the city? 01:19:48
With some of the thinking, again focus on the ground floor, but. 01:19:55
These dashed lines that show along what is Cauldron, it's not labeled, but that East West road was blue dashed lines. That's where 01:20:00
guaranteed commercial. We absolutely required ground floor commercial on both sides of that street. So it's a really active 01:20:05
vibrant. 01:20:10
Commercial St. 01:20:16
And thank you state or one thing on that southwest side and it kind of enclosing that that gap and making sure that we have urban 01:20:20
frontage on both sides. Thanks for having that. 01:20:26
You bet. 01:20:34
The next slide just is a different view of kind of what that commercial would look like just. 01:20:36
Seeing where that would be, again, it's a really active commercial area. 01:20:42
Focused on those other two blocks at the ground floor and really the residential is kind of isolated for that live work you know 01:20:47
I, I can live and I can I can work right there so. 01:20:52
Tried to kind of bundle it so it was really vibrant and active and everybody's got access to the common areas. 01:21:00
Both the commercial and the residential. 01:21:05
Commission #80 when I said there was more on it, on the residential intensity, that's the end of it. So. 01:21:15
I do have a couple of questions about park space and stuff. Something I'd like to see is a majority of your park space is along 01:21:21
the front of the Vineyard Connector, which is. 01:21:27
Good for prettiness, but it doesn't give your residents a lot of options as far as things to do. You're not going to play football 01:21:34
on any of those areas or soccer or anything. 01:21:39
So. 01:21:45
On a map that was let me just go back to the plan view. 01:21:47
Are you referring to this strip here? Yes. So top all of the strips on the road. So that top strips the one on the east and the 01:21:51
one on the West. So it's in in total that's 1234. 01:21:57
5 acres. 5 acres of the 8 acres is that street frontage. 01:22:03
And that seems like for me personally, if I was living there, I'd want more open space that's usable, like a park where you can 01:22:10
play soccer and where you want to take your kids instead of being right next to a busy Rd. Yeah, over here in Geneva. I'll tell 01:22:17
you the thinking. There was just that Geneva Trail is going to come through there. And so if you could widen that, I don't know if 01:22:23
we'll get into all the details, but the thought was put a little bit of a playground. 01:22:29
There is a trail kind of merges into the other, but it was really playing off of the Geneva Trail that would eventually, you know, 01:22:36
link the whole pedestrian stat. Yeah. And I would say staff can't push that one on them. 01:22:41
We because we're going to have the Geneva Rd. trail and if that was why not beautify the, that, you know, the, the Geneva Rd. 01:22:46
corridor cause the worm side is, is kind of nasty. I know that I want to throw too many eggs at them. I know they, they do want to 01:22:52
beautify their, their section at some point. But thought was making instead of just a 10 foot trail, make it a, a trail that's 01:22:58
beautiful to have open space pocket parks on it. That that was kind of the idea there. It it also, I think enhances just that 01:23:04
corner that, that. 01:23:10
Corner. 01:23:16
Internally, I mean, because if you're gonna have a lot of residential, maybe even creating some great residential amenities that 01:23:48
could be publicly accessed as well. Yeah, I mean, if you're adding that many units already, this area, they don't have any parks. 01:23:54
And like, it's one thing to be like, I mean, it's good to have like a Plaza and stuff, but I mean, people live here, they have 01:24:00
families, they have kids and plazas are great, but you don't really want to take your kid to a Plaza. You don't want to play 01:24:06
soccer, football in a Plaza. I think that's something that this area desperately needs is more like open park space, grass and 01:24:12
places to play for kids and stuff. 01:24:19
You would have a better comments on that than I would say. 01:24:26
Right. Yes. 01:24:29
It's like karma. What doesn't it? 01:24:37
The atmosphere because the the. 01:24:43
Enclosed parks are within the building structures. 01:24:46
Yeah, I know all we've got these tiny little baby parks and my kids are. 01:24:54
Over there, 7 to 14. 01:25:00
74714 and. 01:25:04
Yeah, like my 7 year old will go swing on the tiny swing and go down the side but the rest of them like. 01:25:07
It would it would be something we frequent and walk to as a family if there was a an area that was conducive to picnicking, 01:25:14
somewhere to bring our soccer ball. 01:25:19
Something community feel. 01:25:25
But yeah, I like the. 01:25:28
It's kind of a mixed bag because I like the plazas too. So if we could have bolts, that would be really great. One of the visions 01:25:31
for the Plaza was, you know, you'll notice one side green, one sides, you know, papers provide soft scape on one side and provide 01:25:37
kind of more of a hard escape urban fill on the other. So the idea was, you know, that that that green scape was more grass, more 01:25:42
turf, obviously, you know. 01:25:48
We also are conscious of water, but we did think a little bit of turf right there might be appropriate. And just based off of 01:25:54
that, like looking at the map here, that would be like a little more than 1/4 of an acre of grass. I know that's like .6 acres of 01:26:00
well, sorry, maybe not the grass. This whole Plaza, this whole Plaza from. 01:26:07
He has 1.1 acres for that whole central Plaza area. 01:26:15
So. 01:26:20
Additionally, that would be the first park like area and in our area and the rest of us all live a lot further South and 01:26:22
wondering. 01:26:27
If at all possible, we could have. 01:26:34
More of a park like function to this lands a little bit closer to where the other residents live too. 01:26:37
That's a request. You mean putting it down in this area just like? 01:26:46
The extent of what we own is is to hear yeah, yeah, obviously you couldn't go for yourself in that I. 01:26:54
It would get a lot of use if it were. 01:27:02
If residents South of this area could see it and then walk to it, does that make sense? 01:27:08
And that would up our city standard of living on the side of the city. 01:27:16
To see it meaning it's more on what made your street. 01:27:22
To see it like. 01:27:25
They understood it was there in a safe place and they feel like it's not too far to walk. 01:27:31
Yep, uh. 01:27:42
Yeah, that would be nice. 01:27:45
OK. What I'm hearing is. 01:27:52
See if we can aggregate some more green space. 01:27:56
See if you could. 01:27:58
Rearrange some of the green space. It is owned by AHCI. Think you should encourage AIC to do that. I like where you're going with 01:28:01
this crowd. You can lobby IHC and be like remember how you're into health with with native dresses. Yes, I believe that's true. 01:28:10
So I, it seems like kind of more like like a, like a larger more park type thing. So I mean, so the, the kind of the question is, 01:28:23
is where you have some of that periphery stuff on Mill Road and Geneva Rd. 01:28:29
The central shared St. on this map is showing that as part of their open space. 01:29:07
Does that mean there's no parking or anything on this open space on the central central shared St. 01:29:12
Does the roads and stuff like that, does that count as open space or how? 01:29:25
Well, I mean, we're doing like the the development agreement to create that special design. So the idea is to to make it like a 01:29:31
really slow place where you could shut down the road, you could do events, you know, you could do a farmers market. You could have 01:29:38
a lot of sidewalk, sidewalk kind of stuff. It would be more of an urban space where people could walk back and forth. 01:29:45
But I mean, it would be up to the up to the Planning Commission, City Council, if you wanted to, to designate like does that reach 01:29:54
the level of of being incorporated? Slide 20. 01:30:00
Which highlights some of the concept and design around the shirts. I mean, it is definitely just kind of it is definitely way 01:30:09
beyond what what a street would be. And so I mean, we, we love the the, the design, but that that's kind of whether or not that 01:30:15
would trigger drills and pedestrian walkways often have been considered open space and. 01:30:21
Awareness. So that's why it got counted. That is because really, it's a pedestrian. Awkward. 01:30:27
OK, the only the only reason I ask is if that is actually a pedestrian walkway and stuff. I would say why not just run the path? 01:30:32
Through this development instead of out on tests and do more of just like a sidewalk on Geneva on on the Vineyard connector, Yeah 01:30:40
to the road and then yeah, we would like to push it. We just need I think we still need that circulation Rd. for fire access. 01:30:48
Yeah, I don't know. Personally for me that way we gain almost 2 1/2 acres of parks nice inside, which I think would be a big 01:30:56
bonus. And and I think we do want and I know this it goes counterintuitive, but even from a planning side, I think we do want cars 01:31:04
to be able to to drive on it. Because if you did food trucks, you know like like loading and that kind of stuff, it is nice to 01:31:11
have that at that area. So that was kind of plain the dual purpose of like a large. 01:31:18
Urban corridor that that could be accessed with vehicles. So still do that. But you could even like just looking at this plan, I'm 01:31:27
not a designer, but you could like copy paste the connector frontage space and put it right next to the central. 01:31:35
Isn't necessarily developable for us because of EU dot right away. Yeah, well, yeah, that's on the on the east side for sure. 01:31:48
I mean, they still have the track there, the connector as well. I think that's good. 01:31:56
And like the tark is like these brittle the the long skinny parts. It sounds interesting in concept too. So I'm kind of. 01:32:01
Torn on that a little bit. 01:32:12
But you're talking about just on the West side? 01:32:15
Yeah, I just like it. 01:32:21
It looks cool and doable about. 01:32:23
Like is that something? 01:32:26
Sorry, now I can't find the pictures. 01:32:30
That's fine. Yeah, I like the idea and the concept of it feels. 01:32:34
Urban and it would look nice. 01:32:41
But again, we need to also consider usability, so if we can find a balance. 01:32:44
Does that make sense? Yeah, a linear park along the road is really attractive. 01:32:51
But these ability like you talked about for football, it's going to be limited for that. But I imagine it would look somewhat like 01:32:57
in Provo on the Riverside trail up. What is that university? 01:33:04
I think, but like they have this neighborhood and it's a bunch of green space and then there's a trail that goes through it and. 01:33:13
It's yeah, near River Woods. And like, yeah, it's gorgeous and it's used for people on the trail, but nobody uses it for anything 01:33:24
else, and that feels like a real waste of opportunity. 01:33:30
Yeah. Plus you have, I think it would benefit moving park space closer towards the center of this project or even down South 01:33:38
further for those people that are coming that live in this project, that are getting food at the southern project. And then just 01:33:45
an in between place to that'd be nice to have extra places to eat at something that is like attracting the people from down South 01:33:52
up into your area, into your commercial into that. 01:33:59
Not being sufficient, but that was the idea here is to bring people in, let people eat in a great dining in with this open space. 01:34:37
So really create a really like in the evening lit up, you know, an ambience. People want to come up there and be there for sure. 01:34:45
And like my kids can kick their ball around too. That would be extra great. 01:34:52
Yeah. And so. 01:35:01
I'll just move around a little bit here and go to the East Gateway park at Linear Park, which is Slide. 01:35:04
23. 01:35:12
Again, we kind of saw this at least 50 feet wide. Could somebody kick a soccer ball? Absolutely. Are you up against the road? Yes, 01:35:14
there's advantage, disadvantage. We can talk about that. Sounds like we're hearing your feedback, but some kind of natural skate 01:35:20
playground. We thought about even contracting and working with the UVU art department to create like something that's. 01:35:26
Themed with with the forge, right, Something that kids can climb on, but it doesn't look like playground equipment, right? It's 01:35:33
it's rocks. It's something that people can jump on. This kind of I think was envisioned kind of the play park. 01:35:39
And then the other gateway. 01:35:44
How are we doing on time A. 01:36:18
What's the target here? Are we getting done? 01:36:21
Yeah, I mean, I would let the Planning Commission just provide comments. But yeah, I mean, they're, they're not like a set 01:36:24
timeline. It's just kind of up to the Planning Commission. 01:36:30
I'll highlight just a few of the vision of the other plazas if you go back to page 21. 01:36:40
Which is this retail Plaza? 01:36:46
This is that on the corner on Mill Rd. we see one, you know, either really tall, one story or two-story building sitting out here. 01:36:48
And again, this is like a dining people come, there's restaurants sitting here. 01:36:53
And maybe there's fire pits that's shown, but this is a, you know, a food based retail Plaza that that people can come and 01:37:01
experience, make it interesting with again, lighting and the different kinds of paving and, and seating integrated into it. 01:37:08
And then the internal alley on the next page, page 22. 01:37:19
This again feeds from the South make it so you can have exhibits, you can have some little alcoves all in it so that again this 01:37:23
can be really activated in an event that. 01:37:28
Similar to what you see there for larger events that the city or other entities might want to host. So that was that was that was 01:37:35
some division, right? Really make it program, really make it interesting, really make it a pedestrian experience as you walk 01:37:39
through space. 01:37:43
Yeah, probably my last comment I want to make is like if. 01:37:49
Like I actually love the plan and like if we actually got something that looked like this, that would be amazing. Unfortunately, I 01:37:54
don't feel like I've been. 01:37:59
Nothing has exceeded my expectations since I've been on the Planning Commission. 01:38:05
I think that the biggest challenge is the mindset is not the plan. I think the plan is, is is great. And if it were already set 01:38:15
and expected to be, you know, 1500 units coming in, then I would say like this, yeah, this is amazing, Let's do it, let's go for 01:38:22
it. I think the really tough thing is going from. 01:38:28
The journey of. 01:38:35
This is going to be an office park. 01:38:36
To it might be a little bit of residential here to there's going to be 3 to 4000 people living here. I think that's, that's the, 01:38:39
that's the struggle. And if and if we're OK with three to 4000 people living in this area, but I think this is a fantastic plan. 01:38:45
So that that's not where my concern is. My concern is just kind of the journey that we've taken and what that potentially opens up 01:38:51
to the for the city. And if that's what we want to do, because I think we need to just make sure that we are being very 01:38:56
intentional and sticking to. 01:39:02
General plans and consulting with the community and making sure that we're all on the same page as we move forward. So that's a 01:39:08
challenge no matter what. And I think you probably understand that too. And that's why you laid out some of the facts and the 01:39:14
realities about the market. And I get that and I understand it. I think that's going to be the biggest challenge moving forward 01:39:19
though. It's just that mindset shift from what everyone thought this was going to be years ago to what's approved now to what's 01:39:24
being proposed, I think. 01:39:30
What's being proposed is great, it's just different than. 01:39:36
What what's already accepting a lot of people's minds for what this might be. 01:39:40
So yeah, that's my final comment. 01:39:44
So what's the the next step? I do have some other comments. 01:39:49
Timeline is. 01:39:53
So we would work with them on the on the development agreement. 01:39:56
Typically it goes, it goes back and forth between staff and the applicant. And then there'd be a public hearing before the 01:40:01
Planning Commission and then a public hearing with the City Council, the City Council, City Council would make the ultimate 01:40:07
decision. If there is an RDA adjustment to the original application, that would go to the RDA board. So from a timeline 01:40:13
standpoint, I mean, typically it takes a few months to go go through that process. 01:40:18
So I mean, realistically, I mean, I don't know what Steve is thinking, but even if they went as fast as they could, you're 01:40:26
probably looking at like a a January. But I think that December 14th had a conflict, right, Jeff, with your guys's, with your 01:40:30
guys's company party. 01:40:35
Yeah, yeah. So if they're prepared at that point, then it would be it could go as early as December 7th with the Planning 01:40:41
Commission and then December 14th. But most likely this is only to talk about scheduling with the with the City Council has gotten 01:40:48
really heavy on the December 14th day. So I actually might not be a great time to to go before them because because of everything 01:40:54
else that that's on. So most likely. 01:41:01
Yeah, I would say January we we can work out the that, you know those, those dates. But typically there's kind of a back and forth 01:41:09
with staff on the development agreement. 01:41:12
Before it goes to public. 01:41:17
So one of the things I'm worried about is with the development just S they came in and wanted X amount of units and wanted to do 01:41:20
residential in an area. And we essentially said no because what we said in that last meeting was this area filled up with 01:41:28
residential. We've met our cap. We don't need more residential in this area. 01:41:36
And I feel like if we approve something like this, then that goes back to the last people that we dealt with. We turn them down 01:41:44
and then we approve this. I have a hard time. 01:41:50
That was that directly going directly across the street. 01:41:55
Yeah, the one next to Top Golf. Oh, that got approved. It did get approved. Yeah. The the, the development agreement did, Yeah, 01:42:00
yes, yeah, it's 300 units or something. Units got approved there. And then the area just South of that when they wanted to approve 01:42:07
residential there. Yeah. And then even with the 300 units that got put in, it was, well, what are we getting for this? Like we're 01:42:14
putting in 300 units. What's the benefit to the city? 01:42:21
And so looking at this, it's like. 01:42:29
If we're putting in even 300 units like what is what is the benefit to the city versus what we would have already been getting and 01:42:31
so. 01:42:36
That's kind of a hard thing for me. 01:42:43
Yeah, and we did deny the residential request on the other. 01:42:47
You said we approved the 300, the City Council approved it. So yeah, with the other one, it is, it will and it wasn't approved. 01:42:52
It's required if they want to go through it, to do a development agreement. So it's kind of kind of the same process right now. 01:42:59
All all it does is that they would go through this process and if the Planning Commission, City Council didn't want it, they'd be 01:43:05
able to deny it through the development agreement. You could deny the development agreement. It's a legislative request. 01:43:12
Or it would, it would provide the ability to work out like a deal. We need X numbers worth of feet of open space. We need, you 01:43:19
know, a traffic impact analysis like those kind of things could be dealt with through that. 01:43:24
What you may see online or with the market says is probably different than reality of what's here is the people working here. A 01:44:00
lot of them can't live here. Most of our city staff can't afford to live in vineyards. It's very expensive. I can afford to live 01:44:06
here if I wasn't one of the first people to move into the new water's edge and I make it a decent amount of money. There's a lot 01:44:12
of people in that situation. So I'd love to see if we're going to change zoning, allow a big change like this. 01:44:19
You know, what can the developer do to help us meet that goal and and affordable housing. We talked about that for months now. 01:44:26
Of our plan but is there anything we can do even a little bit can can go a long way yeah I think my. 01:44:32
What would help me more is to understand what you mean by affordable. 01:44:40
Right knowing. 01:44:44
But we'd love to have people that actually work here be able to live here. 01:45:16
And that is something that we are hearing kind of vertically throughout the city. So mayor council as well, is that they'd like to 01:45:21
see affordable housing generally in the city. So I, I would, I would just suggest providing an analysis with, with the, the 01:45:27
development agreement, have someone look at it and, and see if, if that there's a potential somewhere in the project for that. 01:45:34
There's a lot of interest in providing some sort of moderate housing for. 01:45:41
You know, for the public safety officials, first responders. 01:45:48
And so yet I I think that would go a long way and it sounds like. 01:45:53
I, I would second exactly that, you know, if it were for those types of individuals working here, providing services here that we 01:45:59
know don't make a lot. And I think there's some dual benefit there of, you know, you're the company providing that. Nobody else is 01:46:05
really bringing that to vineyards right now. And I think it would help with future partnerships, some goodwill both ways. 01:46:12
I hear it. Thank you. 01:46:19
And just one more thing on commercial it says 50% of the ground floor. I would like to see more of a percent like if we go back 01:46:20
some amount of residential then we're going to have X amount of commercial see some kind of something in that regard because you 01:46:27
could build a 20 story building and have 50% of the bottom floor be. 01:46:34
Commercial but. 01:46:41
So if there was more of a. 01:46:42
I don't know what number. 01:46:44
That should be, but I. 01:46:48
It's kind of like we did with the downtown. They're required to have 2,000,000 square feet of or at least 2,000,000 square feet of 01:46:50
commercial, if I remember right, just some kind of number where we can see. 01:46:56
How much commercial is it actually going to go in versus how much residential is gonna go in would be helpful. Yeah, yeah. With 01:47:03
the downtown, the minimum requirement was 500,000 square feet initially. And so they upped it to 1,000,000 square feet. And then 01:47:10
with the the structure parking and the amenities that, that, that they're put in, there was essentially a cap take taken off the 01:47:17
the residential because the idea is we're getting the amenities, we're getting kind of a baseline for, for commercial uses. 01:47:25
And so that was where how we did it with the downtown. But but we were guaranteed kind of a minimum amount, which was, which was 01:47:33
really cool because we knew and you've got to make that translation work from a, an appointment standpoint. We got to have kind of 01:47:38
that minimum threshold. And so that's, that's what they have to have at the very baseline. But we're projecting we're going to get 01:47:44
quite a bit more than that. 01:47:49
One of these buildings going to be shared space studio residential for low income. 01:47:58
That was a joke. 01:48:04
We're not ready for that. 01:48:08
Yeah. 01:48:11
All right, thank you. Yeah, any other comments from you guys or we'll just point out at the end of this at the very end there are 01:48:13
right, we talked about some kind of quality assurance and so we won't go through them but. 01:48:19
The retail Plaza, what does it have to include? The Central Park, what does it have to include so that there's some assurance of 01:48:26
quality and kind of quantity. There's examples of kind of what we're drafting for the development agreement to lock that in. So 01:48:32
you can go through that again above any comments getting back to Morgan or whoever else, whatever that pathway is, but. 01:48:38
Yeah. 01:48:46
I'm looking for a head nods to say yeah, that's the kind of thing that we really want to you know, you're on the right track 01:48:47
walking and those kinds of things or no, we want to go a whole lot more detail definitely any. 01:48:53
Anything that's promised or alluded to, we want to make sure there are teeth to it, right? There's it's enforceable because we 01:48:59
have definitely seen as a growing city that if it's not in there and sometimes even when it is in there, you still don't get what 01:49:04
you. 01:49:09
'Re willing to commit to the quality. Jeff Dockner does not mess around. He should see the the project he built and caught when I 01:49:16
said his top notch. 01:49:20
We can, we can build that. We can build that, lift that into it. And what I said earlier, I stand by like I don't think. 01:49:26
The concept of this is the challenge here. I think the concept is kind of just the journey of what what the planned uses here. 01:49:33
Yeah, I think that's going to be the biggest, biggest struggle. Yeah. And another comment with like with the downtown, obviously 01:49:39
downtown was much bigger than this, but this is a huge project. I would have a hard time being like, here's our first time seeing 01:49:44
it ever today and then approve it in four weeks, like. 01:49:50
Or not even 4 weeks, like 3 weeks. And that that is hard because downtown it was months. 01:49:57
Said. 01:50:05
Yeah. I think we need to spend the time so doing like another work session with the Planning Commission like, well, once you get a 01:50:08
little further along. Yeah, yeah. 01:50:12
OK. Thank you guys. We appreciate your good your time as well. 01:50:19
All right, Commission member reports an expert day. Discussion of disclosure has everything. 01:50:27
I got one quick thing for the bike and pedestrian Commission that I'm on will be reviewing the active transportation plan. So if 01:50:34
all of you should have access to that online, I think we're meeting the first part of January. Yeah, still being determined. Still 01:50:41
being determined. We're meeting sometime, but if you've got recommendations on updates there or one. One thing that I'm passionate 01:50:48
about is making sure that our trail system connects properly. So if there's like problem intersections or when. 01:50:56
Walking around or it's a like, if you're not comfortable letting your 10 year old bike somewhere in the city, We made it that way, 01:51:03
right? We did this from scratch. So speak up, let us know where the issues are and we need to address those types of things and 01:51:08
make sure that we're not. 01:51:13
Making things dangerous by design. Thanks, Anthony. All right, staff, you have anything? 01:51:18
We are hoping to have the active transportation plan final draft very soon. So a process for that we're thinking. 01:51:26
What do we say the dates on there? I'm sorry. I think we were going to try to get that to you for December 7th and then that would 01:51:35
go to City Council probably in January. So that that'll be a good one. Hopefully we can have the. 01:51:42
That'll probably get adopted as like in a companion document to the general plan. So we'll still do a public notice for it. Most 01:51:51
likely. As we do updates to the general plan, we'll start referencing the active transportation plan, but it probably won't be 01:51:57
like embedded in, but it'll be a companion document to it. So we will get that to you as soon as we get it and you can start 01:52:03
making comments hopefully by the end of this week. 01:52:09
So just, you know, look for that and there's yeah, there's a bunch of projects that that we're working on, but that's that's 01:52:16
probably the the next one you're going to see central corridor plan is, is coming along really great. Most likely that's going to 01:52:20
be a January. 01:52:25
Time frame as well hopefully. 01:52:30
January is gonna be. It might be January, February. 01:52:34
There's too many and there's general plan amendments coming in. There's a bunch of stuff. So this is turning into like the bronze 01:52:39
Swanson Day where they scheduled on. 01:52:44
One day I will meet with everyone. Thanks. I don't know if it's the same as anything. 01:52:53
Hello. It's good to see you, Brian, that you're moving and here at the city. 01:53:01
Hope you're feeling better. 01:53:07
Cool, all right, if that is everything, then meeting is earned. 01:53:09
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